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Are there any games that involve logistics?
lowlylowlycook
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Registered User regular
So, I was rereading some bit of Supplying War and it occurred to me that I couldn't think of any games that have a basic model of logistics in the same way that the Total War games are set apart by the fact that they have a simple system of morale.
It's been a long time but as far as I remember, even very complicated war game The Operation Art of War had an extremely basic system where roads had infinite capacity and I think even the distance between a unit and it's source of supply played no role. Thus, the game only enforced that you had some kind of connection to a source of supply (which is realistic in the time period covered by TOAW but not before then) but wouldn't even really illuminate the folly of trying to invade Russia.
Of course lighter wargames like Panzer General don't enforce even that and I can't think of any rts/tbs games that have any kind of need to supply your units.
Does anyone else think that this lack is pretty interesting given the crucial role that logistics plays in warfare? Or are there games that I'm missing?
It's been a long time but as far as I remember, even very complicated war game The Operation Art of War had an extremely basic system where roads had infinite capacity and I think even the distance between a unit and it's source of supply played no role. Thus, the game only enforced that you had some kind of connection to a source of supply (which is realistic in the time period covered by TOAW but not before then) but wouldn't even really illuminate the folly of trying to invade Russia.
Of course lighter wargames like Panzer General don't enforce even that and I can't think of any rts/tbs games that have any kind of need to supply your units.
Does anyone else think that this lack is pretty interesting given the crucial role that logistics plays in warfare? Or are there games that I'm missing?
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
lowlylowlycook on
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There are plenty of games that deal with logistics. But I can't really remember any that dealt with warfare too.
MoO2?
That's kinda logistics.
Let 'em eat fucking pineapples!
It's not very in depth and very basic.
EDIT: Actually, now that I think of it, Sword of the Stars has a system in place. You have to have fuel ships and repair ships accompany your forces as you drive into enemy territory. If you don't, your assault can stall. I mean, it's not a full on logistic simulator, but you do have to consider that you have to allot enough fuel ships/refinery ships and/or repair ships...and then protect them once you hit combat.
That said, TOAW lets you model road conditions and interdiction, which affects effective resupply rates on further hexes. TOAW's emphasis on unit components is unparalleled and models that part of logistics realyl well, better than anything else does.
The Stainless Steel mod for M2:TW has a psuedo-logistics system, wherein each army is supplied with a given number of turns' worth of supplies. Each turn it spends not in your own territory decreases the counter, and you can only occasionally forage in foreign territories (a turn spent foraging doesn't decrease your own supplies).
There are more advanced options for SS which increase the logistics side of things (although largely they focus on unit recruitment, I believe), but I haven't played with them.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Galactic Civilizations 2 had the supply limit mentioned earlier, this could be researched away or off set by building a fleet after having the research capacity to do so and equiping a carrier with supplies to help your fleet get out to the enemy.
So are quite a few Koei games of that era.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
The Hearts of Iron games have the potential for complex supply, and the base system certainly is complex, but the actual implementation and results just boil down to produce supply and wait for it to reach the troops.
Its been a long time since I've played the AGEOD games, but they have a rather intricate supply system covering (again, this is all if I remember correctly) seperate systems for warfighting materials and non-warfighting materials as well as producing the supply, shipping it to centralized supply dumps, then getting it to military units.
Someone already mentioned War in the Pacific which is like Hearts of Iron 3 in that the supply system itself is complex but the actual implemenation and use of it extremely basic (or at the very least something that doesn't intrude on your thoughts much - unless you take off most of the automated controls, and then its just next to impossible to play).
If you want to get really killer you should go into boardgames. For example in the OCS series of games you get seperate supply counters which are produced or shipped in at specific points (some games even have generic supply and a seperate set for ammo), that you must then pickup with transport units (or move them as slow foot troops), and manually advance forward to supply dumps. Then you typically have another set of supply transport units (usually associated with the combat units manning that front line) which then pick up supply from the supply dumps and get it to the units who then use supply for normal operations and, in addition, for special manuevers or actions thereby eating through it in other methods.
Edit:
Excepting boardgames, where supply is generally a huge concern, I don't think I've ever played a game where I've devoted any significant amount of attention on supply concerns. Other than just ensuring my units are surrounded/cut off. Its just too automated and too many shortcuts put in place to really have to worry about it short of knowing the rules enough to say "If I go down this route I won't have supply problems (or reduced supply problems) and if I go down that route I will."
Edit of the Edit:
To address the other concern, most games don't put a lot of focus on supply management for two reasons:
1) Too much micro-management, even for die-hard wargamers.
2) Inability to properly model real life constraints and concerns.
So most games typically build a basic supply system to punish you for being out of supply, enable you to keep units in supply without extensive background work, and then implement special scenarios for dealing with real world craziness (sometimes a random % of lost supplies or special cases like Russian Winter, etc...). Supply normally plays a crucial role in a lot of games, they're just designed to make it as easy as possible on you and keep your from thinking about it so much your head hurts. Instead of complex cases which would model the East Front in WW2, they just say General Winter and General Mud screw you over in some special way to represent all the problems associated with the entire campaign.
In its current implementation, cities with iron mines produce X units of iron per turn, which goes into a kingdom-wide bank, which can be drawn off by producing units or buildings in a completely different town. There are, approximately, 5 resources you can produce (materials, metal, diplomatic capital, crystal, Elementium, and people; people are the only resource which is local).
In the original, there was going to be a whole lot more resources - wood, iron, mithril, stone, etc., as base resources, which could be made into sword, axes, armor, bows, plows, whatnot. Moreover, each city would only have access to the stuff it made itself, unless you set up specific trade routes to move, say, iron from your mining town over to the town where you were making swords, which you would then have to ship to the town with excess people to turn them into swordsmen.
A lot of people said, "YES! Give us this more complex simulation of supply-and-demand!"
Several people (myself among them), said, "Do any of you realize how hard it is to plan complex supply chains such that everything is where it is when you need it, and not 10 turns later?" Yes, if you have one town producing iron, and one town producing swords, then it's easy to keep things balanced. However, if the first town is also producing swords, sometimes, and there's a third town producing armor (which also requires the iron from the first town), and you've got a city on the other side of the map trying to make armored swordsmen, things get out of hand really quickly. On top of that, layer in travel time between the cities, minimum stocking levels, protecting supply chains ... Eesh.
I am a transportation consultant by trade; I spend a lot of time dealing with cargo airlines and ocean shippers. For most such applications, the Civ 3 - 4 system is close enough for fun.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
In 2 you had to produce supplies, ensure there were convoys/escorts enough to get them where they needed to be, and then make sure the infrastructure was protected enough (from enemy bombing and whatnot) that it moved around efficiently. And you had Transport Capacity that represented your land based transportation for supplies, this was derived from your total industrial capacity and modified by research levels. Too big an army, too big a front, or a long haul from your depots to the front could stretch your TC and leave your troops under supplied.
Just about all of this beyond setting the slider for how much industry was devoted to producing supplies and then building convoys/escorts was automated though.
Defending and attacking logistics capabilities comes down to destroying supply units and/or cutting off access to supply depots. The best way to defeat a breakthrough is to interdict the supply chain and you can do this by wrecking terrain and roads with artillery or air to ground attack planes. Of course, blowing up supply trucks and capturing depots is ideal, but usually difficult. Useful overlays show you who is in supply, and who isn't.
It's a nice system, it's intuitive and has drastic effects on the ebb and flow of battle.
I was going to say this, but i got beated. A lot of the Koei games required that you deal with the logistics of fielding an army, the actual fighting got a bit dull. I'm particularly fond of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms series. They are up to 10 or something now, the third is the one I usually play. You won't really be managing roadways or the like, but managing provinces. Generating wealth, food, keeping the peasants in some state of happiness, raising armies, etc. And you will spend a great deal of time managing officers, advisers and generals.
I might go play some, but that's kissing a week goodbye.
I've always wanted to try this game........Good lord, $30 for a 7 year old game?
edit: Oh yeah, I forgot. It's totally worth thirty bucks if you are into these kinds of wargames.
Sadly, this system was removed in later games. I liked the added complexity, and with some minor tweaking it could have added some much needed balance to OB64.
I've been dying to check this thing out. Is the demo a good indicator of what the overall game gives you?