The funny thing about manga is that manga is actually read by adults in Japan, though they don't watch anime as much, which is thus still reserved mostly for younger people.
There are manga that are tailored for adults (and I'm not talking about porn). They're basically dramas in comic form. My parents and relatives really liked the manga about cooking for example, like the one about a boy learning to be a sushi chef. Quite a few Japanese live-action dramas actually have their origins in manga (off the top of my head, that sushi manga, GTO, Nodame Cantabile, Hana yori Dango, Kindaichi Case Files)
Also, I think it's wrong to call someone childish for being into something that is primarily aimed at children. The classic Disney films are a great example. While kids are no doubt the main target audiance, these films are good enough and have enough maturity and/or quality in their execution that it's very easy for an adult to become a fan. Same goes for Avatar: The Last Airbender or Batman the Animated Series or One Piece or many other things. Just becase something is designed for kids does not mean you have to be a child to find quality and enjoyment out of it.
Also, I think it's wrong to call someone childish for being into something that is primarily aimed at children. The classic Disney films are a great example. While kids are no doubt the main target audiance, these films are good enough and have enough maturity and/or quality in their execution that it's very easy for an adult to become a fan. Same goes for Avatar: The Last Airbender or Batman the Animated Series or One Piece or many other things. Just becase something is designed for kids does not mean you have to be a child to find quality and enjoyment out of it.
Watching the little Mermaid, OK. Dressing up as an old Victorian and sticking your dick in a flounder at the fish mongers not OK.
1. Actual kiddie pop-culture -- as in, continuing to enjoy stuff originally intended for children. That seems pretty harmless, though it's not my bag for the most part and sometimes it rubs me the wrong way aesthetically.
2. Fan culture. Video games, comic books, sci-fi. I think this is so mainstream by now that I'm surprised anybody calls it childish, and I do participate in it. It's just enjoying newer forms of art.
3. Being socially awkward, messy, and basically not like Don Draper. That's unfortunate, and it's a harder problem to fix than people assume.
4. Not being financially independent. I have very little respect for people who do that unless they really have no choice. There are lots of options besides depending on your parents.
5. Delaying old-fashioned life stages like marriage, children, homeownership, and a "real" job. This is an unavoidable feature of the modern world! We need more education to get ahead; jobs change more quickly; don't get me started on housing; and (at least if you're a lady) there's a real possibility that having children young will ruin your life if you have any career aspirations. So sorry, social conservatives, I'm not getting married for a while. Or buying a car or a house.
6. Being "soft" -- expecting things like fulfillment, finding oneself, entertainment, instead of SHUT UP AND WORK AND GO TO CHURCH LIKE GRANDPA DID. Um... this is a tough one, but I think I prefer the modern individualist vision. I get somewhat guilty about it, but I think it's better for people on the whole. Even if they do dick around on the internet a lot. Social declinism really troubles me, and I prefer to be more optimistic.
So... I suspect the whole manchild thing is mostly overhyped.
Also, I think it's wrong to call someone childish for being into something that is primarily aimed at children. The classic Disney films are a great example. While kids are no doubt the main target audiance, these films are good enough and have enough maturity and/or quality in their execution that it's very easy for an adult to become a fan. Same goes for Avatar: The Last Airbender or Batman the Animated Series or One Piece or many other things. Just becase something is designed for kids does not mean you have to be a child to find quality and enjoyment out of it.
Watching the little Mermaid, OK. Dressing up as an old Victorian and sticking your dick in a flounder at the fish mongers not OK.
Yeah, but some people here give off the impression that if you watch and enjoy The Little Mermaid, it's a childish indulgence. I say that's bullcrap. It's a quality film.
And for the record, that flounder was a total whore.
How is reading manga an infantile hobby in the first place? This is what no one has explained. Everyone just says it is because it just is, basically. Saying manga is infantile is like saying novels are infantile. The content is so broad that painting it all with one brush like that is absolutely silly.
And explain to me how dressing up as a character you like at a convention is any more infantile than dressing up as something for Halloween. In both cases, it is people dressing up for an occasion where dressing up is considered part of the event. Like yeah, walking around the street dressed as Naruto is kinda weird, but lots of people, including people here, will see it at a convention and act all repulsed at it.
You see a lot of people who hate on someone who would dress as Batman at a comic con, but not if they dressed as Batman for Halloween. It's the same damn thing.
Basically, I think that people that are solely in your first group are not childish people at all, and don't deserve to be called that. I also think that most of these hobbies aren't childish at all, and only become that way when the person develops their hobby down the group 2 or 3 road. I have yet to hear a really good reason why things like anime, video games, figure collecting, etc. should inherently be considered childish. They ARE considered that way, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD be.
Look, i'm not justifying society's views as being kind or fair or consistent. I'm just relating the world as I understand it. Yes, maybe adults are expected to read comic books in japan. Most of us don't live in japan. Comics are generally regarded as kid stuff and the amount of disdain an adult will get for reading comic books is about in proportion to how much he is into them. This goes maybe a little less so for video games.
Maybe some of this is that I am in my thirties and most of your are in your teens and twenties. The expectations of adulthood crystallize more as one gets older, especially in this modern era of forced dependency and extended adolescence.
Also, Ive mentioned that i still play video games, maybe less that I did when i was younger, but I do. I go out with my friends even if they're wearing something I think is not befitting an adult. I don't throttle the fat guy wearing a naruto shirt on the bus.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Maybe some of this is that I am in my thirties and most of your are in your teens and twenties. The expectations of adulthood crystallize more as one gets older, especially in this modern era of forced dependency and extended adolescence.
Also, Ive mentioned that i still play video games, maybe less that I did when i was younger, but I do. I go out with my friends even if they're wearing something I think is not befitting an adult. I don't throttle the fat guy wearing a naruto shirt on the bus.
It's worth reminding that norms change on a regular basis, and when those of us in our 20s are in our 30s, the "crystallization" may include things that the previous generation looks down on, much like how you are likely more tolerant of "childish" things than those who are currently in their 40s, and they compared to those in their 50s.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
Maybe some of this is that I am in my thirties and most of your are in your teens and twenties. The expectations of adulthood crystallize more as one gets older, especially in this modern era of forced dependency and extended adolescence.
Also, Ive mentioned that i still play video games, maybe less that I did when i was younger, but I do. I go out with my friends even if they're wearing something I think is not befitting an adult. I don't throttle the fat guy wearing a naruto shirt on the bus.
It's worth reminding that norms change on a regular basis, and when those of us in our 20s are in our 30s, the "crystallization" may include things that the previous generation looks down on, much like how you are likely more tolerant of "childish" things than those who are currently in their 40s, and they compared to those in their 50s.
Maybe but I doubt it for the most part. It's not like 20 year olds were particularly grown up when I was that age. I think probably the current economic climate has kind of lowered expectations for financial independence for young people and that this is probably giving a little more of a grace period for young adults, but by and large you'll see expectations start to ratchet up as you get a little older.
Maybe but I doubt it for the most part. It's not like 20 year olds were particularly grown up when I was that age. I think probably the current economic climate has kind of lowered expectations for financial independence for young people and that this is probably giving a little more of a grace period for young adults, but by and large you'll see expectations start to ratchet up as you get a little older.
Or we'll simply become more like Europe and less like the industrial revolution.
The Recession hasn't killed culture off like the Depression did, so I don't see why the aftermath would.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
edited September 2010
What does anything have to with killing off culture?
How is reading manga an infantile hobby in the first place? This is what no one has explained. Everyone just says it is because it just is, basically. Saying manga is infantile is like saying novels are infantile. The content is so broad that painting it all with one brush like that is absolutely silly.
And explain to me how dressing up as a character you like at a convention is any more infantile than dressing up as something for Halloween. In both cases, it is people dressing up for an occasion where dressing up is considered part of the event. Like yeah, walking around the street dressed as Naruto is kinda weird, but lots of people, including people here, will see it at a convention and act all repulsed at it.
You see a lot of people who hate on someone who would dress as Batman at a comic con, but not if they dressed as Batman for Halloween. It's the same damn thing.
Basically, I think that people that are solely in your first group are not childish people at all, and don't deserve to be called that. I also think that most of these hobbies aren't childish at all, and only become that way when the person develops their hobby down the group 2 or 3 road. I have yet to hear a really good reason why things like anime, video games, figure collecting, etc. should inherently be considered childish. They ARE considered that way, but that doesn't mean they SHOULD be.
Look, i'm not justifying society's views as being kind or fair or consistent. I'm just relating the world as I understand it. Yes, maybe adults are expected to read comic books in japan. Most of us don't live in japan. Comics are generally regarded as kid stuff and the amount of disdain an adult will get for reading comic books is about in proportion to how much he is into them. This goes maybe a little less so for video games.
Maybe some of this is that I am in my thirties and most of your are in your teens and twenties. The expectations of adulthood crystallize more as one gets older, especially in this modern era of forced dependency and extended adolescence.
Also, Ive mentioned that i still play video games, maybe less that I did when i was younger, but I do. I go out with my friends even if they're wearing something I think is not befitting an adult. I don't throttle the fat guy wearing a naruto shirt on the bus.
You said it better than I could here, though I'll add a personal anecdote.
I'm 29, so just about to "cross the threshold" into where you better have your ducks lined up in a row for what you want to do with your life. Goofing off is fine and good, but at some fucking point the reality of investments, career plans, life, really fucking whacks you over the head HARD. It sucks, and it's not fun, and looking back at your life and saying "wow, boy was that fucking stupid" is an odd experience. For me, there was a moment of panic where I really had to look at where I stood and where I was going to end up. If you haven't lived long enough to get there, it really won't make sense. Just as when you were 6, mom and dad telling you things didn't make sense, they were just old fucking codgers that didn't know how to have fun. In retrospect, I so should have listened to what they said.
But that doesn't mean you can't have fun, and can't indulge at times. Fuck I've "made it" whatever the hell that actually means. I live in the high rent district and have a great job. My video collection is full of anime and I clock about 2 hours of street fighter a night. I'm aware of the social stigma of it, I'm also aware that my piercings and skater shirts aren't really appropriate for someone in my position, but on the weekends, fuck it. Though I won't get pissed if somebody judges me because I know most stereotypes are true of how I portray myself.
At times I wonder though if I should ditch some of those habits. It's not really productive, and I don't really want people to see my man cave. It's an odd thing to work out.
What does anything have to with killing off culture?
In tough economic times, things tend to go backwards and people cling to old ideas instead of new ones. The current times do not appear to be so tough that this is true as it was in previous times. The ages of new "childish" hobbies tend to get older. People actually hold onto the stuff they like rather than discard them. They often change them to fit in with a more adult understanding of the world, of course, but that's going to happen with any medium.
Maybe some of this is that I am in my thirties and most of your are in your teens and twenties. The expectations of adulthood crystallize more as one gets older, especially in this modern era of forced dependency and extended adolescence.
Also, Ive mentioned that i still play video games, maybe less that I did when i was younger, but I do. I go out with my friends even if they're wearing something I think is not befitting an adult. I don't throttle the fat guy wearing a naruto shirt on the bus.
It's worth reminding that norms change on a regular basis, and when those of us in our 20s are in our 30s, the "crystallization" may include things that the previous generation looks down on, much like how you are likely more tolerant of "childish" things than those who are currently in their 40s, and they compared to those in their 50s.
Maybe but I doubt it for the most part. It's not like 20 year olds were particularly grown up when I was that age. I think probably the current economic climate has kind of lowered expectations for financial independence for young people and that this is probably giving a little more of a grace period for young adults, but by and large you'll see expectations start to ratchet up as you get a little older.
I am also in my 30s, and I got into the things I'm still into (video games, anime, cosplay) either in university, or when I was in my 20's, because I was finally financially independent and had my own living quarters - the very things most people think man/womanchildren eschew in favor of pursuing childish interests.
You might think that makes my views sadder, I don't know.
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratormod
I am also in my 30s, and I got into the things I'm still into (video games, anime, cosplay) either in university, or when I was in my 20's, because I was finally financially independent and had my own living quarters - the very things most people think man/womanchildren eschew in favor of pursuing childish interests.
You might think that makes my views sadder, I don't know.
i'm sympathetic. i didn't get my first gaming console until i was 25 or 26, which is part of why i suspect that i still play video games.
When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
You have a fascinating view of what is, at its core, a development disorder.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
You have a fascinating view of what is, at its core, a development disorder.
Yeah, that's kind of like defending Sickle Cell disease because of the fringe benefits that keep you from catching malaria. Never mind you'll be dead by 30, hey, no malaria!
When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
You have a fascinating view of what is, at its core, a development disorder.
A development disorder by society's standards.
edt: In fact I believe at one point homosexuality was considered a disorder
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
You have a fascinating view of what is, at its core, a development disorder.
A development disorder by society's standards.
edt: In fact I believe at one point homosexuality was considered a disorder
The inability to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex is very much likely a biological/psychological disorder.
It's just one we're all pretty okay with, not unlike Asperger's.
EDIT: please note that I'm not attempting to denigrate homosexuality. I do not think it, nor Aspergers, is anything remotely resembling a disease or handicap.
When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
You have a fascinating view of what is, at its core, a development disorder.
A development disorder by society's standards.
edt: In fact I believe at one point homosexuality was considered a disorder
Which is really the only relevant standard. Unless you're living on a deserted island somewhere.
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Maybe I've just read too many disability-rights essays, but it seems to me that it's not your business to tell another person "Hey, you're disordered! Your life sucks! You say you're doing all right? Well you're not!" I don't like the idea of people making sure people with autism or Asperger's aren't too happy, trying to make sure they remember they have a disease. Is that productive?
(on the other hand, if there's nothing out of the ordinary about your sensory processing or verbal processing, then that's called being just kinda weird, not autism spectrum. Nothing wrong with being weird if you pay your own bills, in my book, but it's different than having a rare alternate neurological structure.)
When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
You have a fascinating view of what is, at its core, a development disorder.
A development disorder by society's standards.
edt: In fact I believe at one point homosexuality was considered a disorder
Which is really the only relevant standard. Unless you're living on a deserted island somewhere.
Do you really believe this? Do you know how many atrocities have been commited by socities against people they didn't like?
Also, when people with aspergers syndrome and even autism say they don't feel like they have a disorder, just a different skill set than other people, I am inclined to go along with that. There are a lot of little movement groups. They even have an Autistic pride day. Sure these people are different, but should we really say there is something "wrong" with them?
Maybe I've just read too many disability-rights essays, but it seems to me that it's not your business to tell another person "Hey, you're disordered! Your life sucks! You say you're doing all right? Well you're not!" I don't like the idea of people making sure people with autism or Asperger's aren't too happy, trying to make sure they remember they have a disease. Is that productive?
In some cases, a developmental disorder rises to a level where a person does not have the ability to rationally make decisions about their own wellbeing.
Asperger's doesn't rise to that level, generally. But some cases of autism certainly do.
Modern Man on
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When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
You have a fascinating view of what is, at its core, a development disorder.
A development disorder by society's standards.
edt: In fact I believe at one point homosexuality was considered a disorder
The inability to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex is very much likely a biological/psychological disorder.
It's just one we're all pretty okay with, not unlike Asperger's.
EDIT: please note that I'm not attempting to denigrate homosexuality. I do not think it, nor Aspergers, is anything remotely resembling a disease or handicap.
so how are you defining disorder here? different yet functional? Because that doesn't seem like the definition of disorder to me. Its not like a homosexuals mind isn't in order its just arranged in a different order, same with aspies.
Which is really the only relevant standard. Unless you're living on a deserted island somewhere.
The only relevant standard, really, is your own judgment. It's not like you have to go very far, even in a very enlightened society, to find collective judgments being made about people and activities that are flat out incorrect. The farther you go back in history, the worse it gets on that front.
We're all stuck here with opinionated jackasses who want to get us to conform to their vision of how to live. To some extent, getting along with them can be useful. At the same time, the crowd will never be there to console you if it steers you in the wrong direction. You don't want to end up being one of those people who says 'I did what was asked of me, but it all turned out badly'. If I fail, I'd rather it be from following my own judgment instead of instinctively obeying the CW.
Do you really believe this? Do you know how many atrocities have been commited by socities against people they didn't like?
Sure. But I doubt there is any real chance of our society rounding up people with autism or Asperger's.
Also, when people with aspergers syndrome and even autism say they don't feel like they have a disorder, just a different skill set than other people, I am inclined to go along with that. There are a lot of little movement groups. They even have an Autistic pride day. Sure these people are different, but should we really say there is something "wrong" with them?
Someone's personal opinion of whether or not they technically have a developmental disorder isn't particularly relevant to the question of whehter or not they actually have that disorder. As an extreme example, a paranoid schizophreniac might well believe the voices he hears are real.
This is kind of off-topic, though. I think we can safely carve out people with developmental disorders from our definition of "man-child."
Modern Man on
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When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
You have a fascinating view of what is, at its core, a development disorder.
A development disorder by society's standards.
edt: In fact I believe at one point homosexuality was considered a disorder
Which is really the only relevant standard. Unless you're living on a deserted island somewhere.
Do you really believe this? Do you know how many atrocities have been commited by socities against people they didn't like?
Also, when people with aspergers syndrome and even autism say they don't feel like they have a disorder, just a different skill set than other people, I am inclined to go along with that. There are a lot of little movement groups. They even have an Autistic pride day. Sure these people are different, but should we really say there is something "wrong" with them?
So there's no such thing as a disorder in your mind?
When I see an adult acting like a child, I applaud them for not having their spirit broken by the cruel machine that we call society.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
You have a fascinating view of what is, at its core, a development disorder.
A development disorder by society's standards.
edt: In fact I believe at one point homosexuality was considered a disorder
Which is really the only relevant standard. Unless you're living on a deserted island somewhere.
Do you really believe this? Do you know how many atrocities have been commited by socities against people they didn't like?
Also, when people with aspergers syndrome and even autism say they don't feel like they have a disorder, just a different skill set than other people, I am inclined to go along with that. There are a lot of little movement groups. They even have an Autistic pride day. Sure these people are different, but should we really say there is something "wrong" with them?
So there's no such thing as a disorder in your mind?
As long as they aren't harming other people, I am a firm believer in letting people do what they want. If they think the voices in their head are real, and they are benevolent voices and this person can take care of themselves, Who am I to tell them they are a crazy person? They aren't hurting anybody, let them be. Live and let live. Unless it is causing the person discomfort or something its all good.
Also to Modern Man:
Yes our modern day society isn't likely to go round em up or whatever, but historically speaking it has happened. Also, telling someone they are messed up in the head is not comforting to most. The people with the syndrome dont like being told they have a disorder usually, its why many of them are fighting to have it removed from the DSM. What harm would come to society if it was no longer considered a disorder? Absolutely none, yet it is clearly causing the people with aspergers some strife, so why not help them out and remove the disorder label?
Not wrong that we have historically diagnosed people incorrectly, no. Wrong in the general, "As long as you're not hurting anyone, maaaan... It's allll goooood" sense. For instance, schizophrenia is a mental disorder that seriously damages a person's ability to operate. You argue, "As long as they're not hurting anyone, we should just leave them alone. Why even call them disabled?" Because they ARE disabled. They DO potentially harm themselves or others, and there's also the simple truth that they are not able to achieve in their daily lives to a level that they could otherwise.
Being handicapped in terms of being able to socially interact with the rest of your species is a disorder. It doesn't make the person less of a valuable individual, but they are certainly handicapped. No, they don't need to be reminded of it constantly, but it's also ridiculous to simply pretend that the handicap is not there.
If they think the voices in their head are real, and they are benevolent voices and this person can take care of themselves, Who am I to tell them they are a crazy person? They aren't hurting anybody, let them be. Live and let live. Unless it is causing the person discomfort or something its all good.
The simple fact is though, that in the greater degree of cases involving physical breaks with reality people are not peacefully having hallucinations or other effects.
Altered reality for those diagnosed with a disorder involving such isn't just simply seeing stuff that isn't there. It comes with the inability to understand that what they're seeing or believing isn't real. This causes anguish in itself. They don't fit in because of this. Isolation can further exacerbate the situation by allowing them to sink further into their own delusion. A great deal of anxiety can form from this and cause suffering.
Now, if they could simply find a community of other sufferers and get along fine, then so be it. That's why this man child stuff is rubbish for the most part, they're not causing any suffering to themselves or others really, they have communities to socialize in. People with severe mental illness cannot simply function though. Saying they should just be left to live and let live is harmful to them. Most people with mental illness don't want to just live with it. Their thoughts are usually uncontrolled, they don't want to be thinking what they are.
Aspergers is a different case, because it's not a mental illness, which are usually developed late teen years(sometimes late childhood). I agree a case can be made for society being more accomadating for people with a disorder like aspergers. They can function alright if they get help adjusting while realizing they can still think the way they do. You can't help someone adjust their breaks with reality to everyday life though. There isn't enough consistency in their behaviour or thought patterns.
Also, how would you suppose someone with severe mental illness support themselves? They couldn't function at an average job without treatment. If we go into a world where it's just fine to have a mental illness, just do your own thing mentality, then how could we justify financial welfare for these people? If they were simply given the choice to not live according to our society and they made that choice(which they wouldn't rationally be able to do anyways) why would you just give them free financial support anymore. If we follow your logic, they'd have to form their own social network and support system to live in yet outside of society.
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
So there's no such thing as a disorder in your mind?
As long as they aren't harming other people, I am a firm believer in letting people do what they want. If they think the voices in their head are real, and they are benevolent voices and this person can take care of themselves, Who am I to tell them they are a crazy person? They aren't hurting anybody, let them be. Live and let live. Unless it is causing the person discomfort or something its all good.
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Thank you thread, for making me notice there are such things in the world.
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There are manga that are tailored for adults (and I'm not talking about porn). They're basically dramas in comic form. My parents and relatives really liked the manga about cooking for example, like the one about a boy learning to be a sushi chef. Quite a few Japanese live-action dramas actually have their origins in manga (off the top of my head, that sushi manga, GTO, Nodame Cantabile, Hana yori Dango, Kindaichi Case Files)
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MH3U Monster Cheat Sheet / MH3U Veggie Elder Ticket Guide
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Watching the little Mermaid, OK. Dressing up as an old Victorian and sticking your dick in a flounder at the fish mongers not OK.
1. Actual kiddie pop-culture -- as in, continuing to enjoy stuff originally intended for children. That seems pretty harmless, though it's not my bag for the most part and sometimes it rubs me the wrong way aesthetically.
2. Fan culture. Video games, comic books, sci-fi. I think this is so mainstream by now that I'm surprised anybody calls it childish, and I do participate in it. It's just enjoying newer forms of art.
3. Being socially awkward, messy, and basically not like Don Draper. That's unfortunate, and it's a harder problem to fix than people assume.
4. Not being financially independent. I have very little respect for people who do that unless they really have no choice. There are lots of options besides depending on your parents.
5. Delaying old-fashioned life stages like marriage, children, homeownership, and a "real" job. This is an unavoidable feature of the modern world! We need more education to get ahead; jobs change more quickly; don't get me started on housing; and (at least if you're a lady) there's a real possibility that having children young will ruin your life if you have any career aspirations. So sorry, social conservatives, I'm not getting married for a while. Or buying a car or a house.
6. Being "soft" -- expecting things like fulfillment, finding oneself, entertainment, instead of SHUT UP AND WORK AND GO TO CHURCH LIKE GRANDPA DID. Um... this is a tough one, but I think I prefer the modern individualist vision. I get somewhat guilty about it, but I think it's better for people on the whole. Even if they do dick around on the internet a lot. Social declinism really troubles me, and I prefer to be more optimistic.
So... I suspect the whole manchild thing is mostly overhyped.
http://numberblog.wordpress.com/
Yeah, but some people here give off the impression that if you watch and enjoy The Little Mermaid, it's a childish indulgence. I say that's bullcrap. It's a quality film.
And for the record, that flounder was a total whore.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
'Nuff said.
I love Pixar so much.
Sigged
Look, i'm not justifying society's views as being kind or fair or consistent. I'm just relating the world as I understand it. Yes, maybe adults are expected to read comic books in japan. Most of us don't live in japan. Comics are generally regarded as kid stuff and the amount of disdain an adult will get for reading comic books is about in proportion to how much he is into them. This goes maybe a little less so for video games.
Maybe some of this is that I am in my thirties and most of your are in your teens and twenties. The expectations of adulthood crystallize more as one gets older, especially in this modern era of forced dependency and extended adolescence.
Also, Ive mentioned that i still play video games, maybe less that I did when i was younger, but I do. I go out with my friends even if they're wearing something I think is not befitting an adult. I don't throttle the fat guy wearing a naruto shirt on the bus.
Personally, it generally brings to mind the controversy over whether aspergers syndrome is actually it's own thing or just a branch of autism spectrum
It's worth reminding that norms change on a regular basis, and when those of us in our 20s are in our 30s, the "crystallization" may include things that the previous generation looks down on, much like how you are likely more tolerant of "childish" things than those who are currently in their 40s, and they compared to those in their 50s.
Maybe but I doubt it for the most part. It's not like 20 year olds were particularly grown up when I was that age. I think probably the current economic climate has kind of lowered expectations for financial independence for young people and that this is probably giving a little more of a grace period for young adults, but by and large you'll see expectations start to ratchet up as you get a little older.
Or we'll simply become more like Europe and less like the industrial revolution.
The Recession hasn't killed culture off like the Depression did, so I don't see why the aftermath would.
You said it better than I could here, though I'll add a personal anecdote.
I'm 29, so just about to "cross the threshold" into where you better have your ducks lined up in a row for what you want to do with your life. Goofing off is fine and good, but at some fucking point the reality of investments, career plans, life, really fucking whacks you over the head HARD. It sucks, and it's not fun, and looking back at your life and saying "wow, boy was that fucking stupid" is an odd experience. For me, there was a moment of panic where I really had to look at where I stood and where I was going to end up. If you haven't lived long enough to get there, it really won't make sense. Just as when you were 6, mom and dad telling you things didn't make sense, they were just old fucking codgers that didn't know how to have fun. In retrospect, I so should have listened to what they said.
But that doesn't mean you can't have fun, and can't indulge at times. Fuck I've "made it" whatever the hell that actually means. I live in the high rent district and have a great job. My video collection is full of anime and I clock about 2 hours of street fighter a night. I'm aware of the social stigma of it, I'm also aware that my piercings and skater shirts aren't really appropriate for someone in my position, but on the weekends, fuck it. Though I won't get pissed if somebody judges me because I know most stereotypes are true of how I portray myself.
At times I wonder though if I should ditch some of those habits. It's not really productive, and I don't really want people to see my man cave. It's an odd thing to work out.
In tough economic times, things tend to go backwards and people cling to old ideas instead of new ones. The current times do not appear to be so tough that this is true as it was in previous times. The ages of new "childish" hobbies tend to get older. People actually hold onto the stuff they like rather than discard them. They often change them to fit in with a more adult understanding of the world, of course, but that's going to happen with any medium.
I am also in my 30s, and I got into the things I'm still into (video games, anime, cosplay) either in university, or when I was in my 20's, because I was finally financially independent and had my own living quarters - the very things most people think man/womanchildren eschew in favor of pursuing childish interests.
You might think that makes my views sadder, I don't know.
i'm sympathetic. i didn't get my first gaming console until i was 25 or 26, which is part of why i suspect that i still play video games.
psychology is just one of societys ways of social conditioning people (yes it does also have some good parts to it), having aspergers just means you are resistant to that social conditioning which isnt neccesarily a bad thing
You have a fascinating view of what is, at its core, a development disorder.
Yeah, that's kind of like defending Sickle Cell disease because of the fringe benefits that keep you from catching malaria. Never mind you'll be dead by 30, hey, no malaria!
A development disorder by society's standards.
edt: In fact I believe at one point homosexuality was considered a disorder
The inability to be sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex is very much likely a biological/psychological disorder.
It's just one we're all pretty okay with, not unlike Asperger's.
EDIT: please note that I'm not attempting to denigrate homosexuality. I do not think it, nor Aspergers, is anything remotely resembling a disease or handicap.
Rigorous Scholarship
Maybe I've just read too many disability-rights essays, but it seems to me that it's not your business to tell another person "Hey, you're disordered! Your life sucks! You say you're doing all right? Well you're not!" I don't like the idea of people making sure people with autism or Asperger's aren't too happy, trying to make sure they remember they have a disease. Is that productive?
(on the other hand, if there's nothing out of the ordinary about your sensory processing or verbal processing, then that's called being just kinda weird, not autism spectrum. Nothing wrong with being weird if you pay your own bills, in my book, but it's different than having a rare alternate neurological structure.)
http://numberblog.wordpress.com/
Do you really believe this? Do you know how many atrocities have been commited by socities against people they didn't like?
Also, when people with aspergers syndrome and even autism say they don't feel like they have a disorder, just a different skill set than other people, I am inclined to go along with that. There are a lot of little movement groups. They even have an Autistic pride day. Sure these people are different, but should we really say there is something "wrong" with them?
Asperger's doesn't rise to that level, generally. But some cases of autism certainly do.
Rigorous Scholarship
so how are you defining disorder here? different yet functional? Because that doesn't seem like the definition of disorder to me. Its not like a homosexuals mind isn't in order its just arranged in a different order, same with aspies.
The only relevant standard, really, is your own judgment. It's not like you have to go very far, even in a very enlightened society, to find collective judgments being made about people and activities that are flat out incorrect. The farther you go back in history, the worse it gets on that front.
We're all stuck here with opinionated jackasses who want to get us to conform to their vision of how to live. To some extent, getting along with them can be useful. At the same time, the crowd will never be there to console you if it steers you in the wrong direction. You don't want to end up being one of those people who says 'I did what was asked of me, but it all turned out badly'. If I fail, I'd rather it be from following my own judgment instead of instinctively obeying the CW.
Someone's personal opinion of whether or not they technically have a developmental disorder isn't particularly relevant to the question of whehter or not they actually have that disorder. As an extreme example, a paranoid schizophreniac might well believe the voices he hears are real.
This is kind of off-topic, though. I think we can safely carve out people with developmental disorders from our definition of "man-child."
Rigorous Scholarship
So there's no such thing as a disorder in your mind?
As long as they aren't harming other people, I am a firm believer in letting people do what they want. If they think the voices in their head are real, and they are benevolent voices and this person can take care of themselves, Who am I to tell them they are a crazy person? They aren't hurting anybody, let them be. Live and let live. Unless it is causing the person discomfort or something its all good.
Also to Modern Man:
Yes our modern day society isn't likely to go round em up or whatever, but historically speaking it has happened. Also, telling someone they are messed up in the head is not comforting to most. The people with the syndrome dont like being told they have a disorder usually, its why many of them are fighting to have it removed from the DSM. What harm would come to society if it was no longer considered a disorder? Absolutely none, yet it is clearly causing the people with aspergers some strife, so why not help them out and remove the disorder label?
how am I wrong exactly?
Being handicapped in terms of being able to socially interact with the rest of your species is a disorder. It doesn't make the person less of a valuable individual, but they are certainly handicapped. No, they don't need to be reminded of it constantly, but it's also ridiculous to simply pretend that the handicap is not there.
Altered reality for those diagnosed with a disorder involving such isn't just simply seeing stuff that isn't there. It comes with the inability to understand that what they're seeing or believing isn't real. This causes anguish in itself. They don't fit in because of this. Isolation can further exacerbate the situation by allowing them to sink further into their own delusion. A great deal of anxiety can form from this and cause suffering.
Now, if they could simply find a community of other sufferers and get along fine, then so be it. That's why this man child stuff is rubbish for the most part, they're not causing any suffering to themselves or others really, they have communities to socialize in. People with severe mental illness cannot simply function though. Saying they should just be left to live and let live is harmful to them. Most people with mental illness don't want to just live with it. Their thoughts are usually uncontrolled, they don't want to be thinking what they are.
Aspergers is a different case, because it's not a mental illness, which are usually developed late teen years(sometimes late childhood). I agree a case can be made for society being more accomadating for people with a disorder like aspergers. They can function alright if they get help adjusting while realizing they can still think the way they do. You can't help someone adjust their breaks with reality to everyday life though. There isn't enough consistency in their behaviour or thought patterns.
Also, how would you suppose someone with severe mental illness support themselves? They couldn't function at an average job without treatment. If we go into a world where it's just fine to have a mental illness, just do your own thing mentality, then how could we justify financial welfare for these people? If they were simply given the choice to not live according to our society and they made that choice(which they wouldn't rationally be able to do anyways) why would you just give them free financial support anymore. If we follow your logic, they'd have to form their own social network and support system to live in yet outside of society.
Are you a psychiatrist?