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[Warhammer40K MMO]Apparently no longer an MMO; inquire within (Page 13).

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    SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    There was a temporary cease fire as they fought the Tyranids. Then they went back to preparing to kill each other again, unlike those traitors blood angels.

    SJ on
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    ArghyArghy Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    What book was the pysker storm? i dont remember that from any gaunts ghost books unless it was one of the new books. There was an awesome short about an assassin trying to kill a space marine leader who just turned to chaos and basically the assassin went on a kamikaze attack and killed like 11 marines before just failing to kill the traitor marine but he died impaled on his lightning claws and his body was a bomb.

    Yeah badass.

    Arghy on
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    -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Arghy wrote: »
    What book was the pysker storm? i dont remember that from any gaunts ghost books unless it was one of the new books. There was an awesome short about an assassin trying to kill a space marine leader who just turned to chaos and basically the assassin went on a kamikaze attack and killed like 11 marines before just failing to kill the traitor marine but he died impaled on his lightning claws and his body was a bomb.

    Yeah badass.

    It was in the second book, dude. That book had 2!
    The first was a flashback story, where a psychic storm came up and crashed most of the Guard landing craft. The ghosts landed mostly without issue, but Gaunts landed way off target and Corbec has to lead them in the main fight.

    The second was in the main story. Farseer Eon Kull unleashed a psychic storm to mask the eldars retreat from the planet, fucked up, and engulfed the planet in a massive psychic storm.

    -Loki- on
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    ArghyArghy Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Ah the one with the giant
    tentacle demon
    i dident see that as absurd--the whole 'untold' battle sequence at the eldar ruins was fucking retarded though or was that another book? I honestly dont remember most of the gaunts ghost storys as they begin to mix with WW2 battles to much.

    Arghy on
    Ask me about the holocaust.
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    TheKoolEagleTheKoolEagle Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    the eisenhorn books are excellent,
    although the 3rd one is fucking depressing considering almost everyone in his retinue dies

    but yeah, i love how they put space marines and chaos space marines in eisenhorn, just looking at the chaos space marines drove people mad

    TheKoolEagle on
    uNMAGLm.png Mon-Fri 8:30 PM CST - 11:30 PM CST
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    ArchonexArchonex No hard feelings, right? Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    the eisenhorn books are excellent,
    although the 3rd one is fucking depressing considering almost everyone in his retinue dies

    but yeah, i love how they put space marines and chaos space marines in eisenhorn, just looking at the chaos space marines drove people mad
    Don't forget that, if you understand the Warhammer mythos well, it's heavily implied that Eisenhorn goes off of the deep end, and possibly even ends up possessed by Cherubael.

    At the very least, he's possibly another Quixos in the making, who even his most trusted friends (Those he hasn't driven off, or sacrificed to Cherubael out of, admittedly, necessity.) don't want anything to do with anymore.

    Though, on the bright side, Abnett says he wants to write a third series of books. And the Ravenor trilogy (A sequel/spinoff trilogy to Eisenhorn.) confirmed that
    Bequin
    is alive and not-so-well.

    The third trilogy is, according to TVTropes, probably going to involve
    Ravenor VS Eisenhorn. The reformed radical Inquisitor who worked with the Eldar and copied lots of their tricks, versus the radical, yet possibly justified, possibly batshit insane, Eisenhorn, who at this point probably knows a scary amount about chaos and how to use it as a weapon.


    Also, the whole thing may or may not be triggered by Bequin waking back up. Which brings most of the first trilogies' crew back together.


    Also, you should ignore the early Gaunt novels prior to the "Saint Sabbat" arc beginning. That's when he starts to structure the chapters properly, and a healthy dose of "Anyone Can Die" gets added into the series. After that, the "Anyone Can Die" thing just gets worse, since after that arc, presumably
    the Ghosts, outside of the leaders, aren't under Sabbats protection anymore. Ungrateful bitch.

    Though, by that point the Ghosts are definitely elite enough to take down Space Marines, considering some of the insanely one sided fights they've been in. Which leads to them getting reserves from other planets added into the mix not once, but twice, since the casualty rate in the Ghosts is mentioned as being utterly staggering.

    Archonex on
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    IvanIssacsIvanIssacs Skull Leader SDF-1Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I always took the Eisenhorn books as him reminiscing or even him telling his story during his eventual trial.
    Dude did some hardcore heretical things and it'll catch up to him eventually.

    IvanIssacs on
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    SkannerJATSkannerJAT Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    At the end of the Eisenhorn books though it mentions continues to do his own thing and disappears after a time so I doubt he would go straight heretical.

    Bequin was my favorite character. I thought she was utterly cliche when they introduced her but her development was really well done. And that assistant with the mind worm was pretty awesome too.

    SkannerJAT on
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    NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    If I remember right Abnett mentions Eisenhorn in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. In passing mention of Ravenor's book Sphere's of Light and how Eisenhorn had a tragic ending. Of course it is also mentioned in the second Ravenor book that
    Eisenhorn was killed by the Divine Fratery. Not necessarily true, due to Cherubael's influence and power, but still a possibility.

    Of course I could be remembering all that wrong.

    Nealneal on
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    SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Uh, what? Eisenhorn
    summons Ravenor and his team in a Ravenor short story that takes place between the first and second Ravenor book. He gives Ravenor some info about what they're up against, cuts a Chaos Dreadnought in half by himself, has Cherubael murder a buncha those divine fratery/seer dudes, and they part ways.

    SJ on
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    NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    SJ wrote: »
    Uh, what? Eisenhorn
    summons Ravenor and his team in a Ravenor short story that takes place between the first and second Ravenor book. He gives Ravenor some info about what they're up against, cuts a Chaos Dreadnought in half by himself, has Cherubael murder a buncha those divine fratery/seer dudes, and they part ways.

    True, that's from the Thorn Wishes Talon short story. Dammit I loved Glossia...so impractical, but so very stylish. In the next book
    a member of the Divine Fratery says that Eisenhorn has been killed by some of their members and that he no longer appears in any of their divinations.

    Nealneal on
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    ArchonexArchonex No hard feelings, right? Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Nealneal wrote: »
    SJ wrote: »
    Uh, what? Eisenhorn
    summons Ravenor and his team in a Ravenor short story that takes place between the first and second Ravenor book. He gives Ravenor some info about what they're up against, cuts a Chaos Dreadnought in half by himself, has Cherubael murder a buncha those divine fratery/seer dudes, and they part ways.

    True, that's from the Thorn Wishes Talon short story. Dammit I loved Glossia...so impractical, but so very stylish. In the next book
    a member of the Divine Fratery says that Eisenhorn has been killed by some of their members and that he no longer appears in any of their divinations.

    Of course
    That wouldn't have been the first time that Eisenhorn had played dead. And given his knowledge of chaos, and Cherubaels absurd level of power, it wouldn't be too hard for him to just block the Fratery from detecting him. Plus, all in all the Fratery seemed like your average chaos cult schmucks who were way in over their heads. I mean, they weren't even prepared to fight off the Secretists that came after them.

    Plus, he had done his job by then. He warned Ravenor about what he was really facing. There wasn't much more reason for him to get involved unless Ravenor ended up failing (And he almost did.).

    Archonex on
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    NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    That's why I conditioned my original supposition with Cherubael and it's influence/power.
    As for Ravenor almost failing...that's what you get when you let a daemon hang out in your retinue.

    Nealneal on
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    ArchonexArchonex No hard feelings, right? Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Nealneal wrote: »
    That's why I conditioned my original supposition with Cherubael and it's influence/power.

    Yeah, though
    The Malus Codicium (Or whatever it's called.) may have more to do with Eisenhorn being able to pull off bullshit tricks then anything else.

    There's a good scene in the third Eisenhorn book where he turns some sap into a walking psychic bomb, and utterly destroys an entire stack in a Hive with a psychic technique he learned from it. A stack, for the record, is typically miles long and high. And the damage to it could pretty much collapse part of a hive (Which is like Hong Kong meets NYC, times a thousand in size.) in on itself. Which would obviously cause untold levels of havoc and destruction.


    I'm betting that if Eisenhorn goes "evil", it'll be because of the Codicium. There was alot of foreshadowing that it might be subtly screwing with him in order to force him into a position where he'd be more accepting of things like Cherubael.

    Hell, there's even a spell in it to summon Cherubael. And it's implied that that's the least of which it can do.

    Archonex on
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    SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I didn't like Ravenor nearly as much as Eisenhorn. It seemed like Ravenor
    was rarely aware of the truth behind what was going on/who he was chasing/where he was going. It seemed like it was mostly just blind luck that kept getting him out of bad situations and on the right trail. He has really good instincts but didn't really seem to understand what was happening.

    SJ on
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    SkwigelfSkwigelf Passed out in a cloud of farts and cigarette smoke.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    -Loki- wrote: »
    Necromunda books would be about gang wars, not habbers going to work. And would probably be about Van Saars with plasma weapons to make it interesting, thus going back to the initial point, 40k books generally feature rare tech because it's interesting.

    There already are a ton of Necromunda books.

    The Kal Jericho series, the Zombie Apocalypse book, the Delaque guy who's searching for Frankensteins book, the Mad Donna book...


    Unfortunately, they're all out of stock now.

    Great books though. Full of comedy.

    Skwigelf on
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    ArghyArghy Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Theres a few torrents full of all the out of stock books in PDF format.

    Arghy on
    Ask me about the holocaust.
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    Descendant XDescendant X Skyrim is my god now. Outpost 31Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    So my hopes for Chaos Space Marines have been bolstered. The main page of the official site has a lovely picture of Kharn the Betrayer on it.

    Fingers crossed...

    Descendant X on
    Garry: I know you gentlemen have been through a lot, but when you find the time I'd rather not spend the rest of the winter TIED TO THIS FUCKING COUCH!
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    RaslinRaslin Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Considering we've seen chaos dreads, khorne beserkers riding around on bikes, other chaos marine stuff, and all... Its pretty likely

    I mean, come on, its not gonna be orks and traitors vs the imperium alone.

    Raslin on
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    nonoffensivenonoffensive Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Raslin wrote: »
    Considering we've seen chaos dreads, khorne beserkers riding around on bikes, other chaos marine stuff, and all... Its pretty likely

    I mean, come on, its not gonna be orks and traitors vs the imperium alone.

    Those are just the PvE mobs, they are saving the big Tau reveal for next year's E3.

    nonoffensive on
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    SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    So my hopes for Chaos Space Marines have been bolstered. The main page of the official site has a lovely picture of Kharn the Betrayer on it.

    Fingers crossed...

    Actually that's just a regular berzerker, Kharn's way more bad-ass than that

    SJ on
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    -Loki--Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The background for the game info page is pretty badass too - a Black Templar with chainsword and power axe.

    -Loki- on
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    manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    This definately needs to be in the OP.

    40k(REPLACEMENT)-20-08-10.jpg

    manwiththemachinegun on
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    SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Holy shit that is awesome

    SJ on
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    nonoffensivenonoffensive Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    They should have a button for Male and Female Space Marines, but you're burly, bald and look like a man either way.

    nonoffensive on
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    Evil WeevilEvil Weevil Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Ah 40k thread, I missed you.

    Wait, no new information?

    *Goes back to mumbling about Eldar dancer-class.*

    Evil Weevil on
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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    SJ wrote: »
    Holy shit that is awesome

    And it's going in the OP.

    Corehealer on
    488W936.png
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    ArghyArghy Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    yeah theres not a very large portion of female gamers compared to male so its not going to be that much of an issue

    Arghy on
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    Mr.SunshineMr.Sunshine Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Just stick in the Sisters and if someone complains about their armor show them the Blood Angels.

    Mr.Sunshine on
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    Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    It will be the hidden / unspoken of Space Marine Chapter, the Angels of Blood... just like Sisters of Battle, but organized along the Ultramarines codex instead of part of the Ecclestiary(sp?).

    Gnome-Interruptus on
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    RaslinRaslin Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Don't flay me, but I don't see any strict reason that marines couldn't be female. Perhaps there is a planet where the females are similar in stature/prowess to males on other planets, and a certain marine chapter recruits females from it? Of course, the armour would be unchanged, and you'd only be able to slightly(at best) tell its a female if the helmet was off, but still...

    Raslin on
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    ArghyArghy Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I dont think the science behind control mutation is very flexible and i dont think males develop the same was as females.

    Arghy on
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    Suffice it to say that the in-setting reasons have been enumerated, and since it is a totally fictional setting it all amounts to "Because we said so." on the part of Games Workshop.

    Please don't bring real science into this.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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    ForumiteForumite Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2010
    I can see why the imperium does not have female space marines, what with their ridiculously strict protocols, ancient science they barely understand and history with the emperor

    But chaos? Why wont chaos make a few female space marines? Slaanesh can sometimes be a bit ambigious, what with the random "one tit" theme they have going on here and there. Still, I'd think chaos, being chaotic and all, would be more...diverse.

    I wouldn't mind an armored female chaos warrior-type character in the lore. I know fantasy Warhammer had at least one obscure female Chosen in the books, so I'm sure there's a place for such a thing in 40K as well

    And here's a female chosen in the rulebooks as well

    2yuwzcz.jpg

    Forumite on
    33tp6w6.gif
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    -SPI--SPI- Osaka, JapanRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Female? Really? You want to claim a follower of Slaanesh is going to have a clear and obvious gender one way or the other?

    That's just setting yourself up for a very awkward situation when you get "her" home after a night out. That and the part where you get eviscerated.

    -SPI- on
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    SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Suffice it to say that the in-setting reasons have been enumerated, and since it is a totally fictional setting it all amounts to "Because we said so." on the part of Games Workshop.

    Please don't bring real science into this.

    There isn't any real science involved in the actual explanation anyway (thank God). It's always just been: the Imperium couldn't figure out how to get the implants to work with women. So, yeah. That's always been pretty much it. It doesn't matter anyway, since space marines are so far beyond what we would consider a regular human that trying to apply a gender to them would be literally pointless. They aren't men or women as far as genders are defined by regular people, they're Space Marines.

    SJ on
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    ArghyArghy Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I wonder if a space marines genitals are atrophied to the point of uselessness or if they just cut them off and put tubes and plugs as it would be more effective. Theres been female chaos marines but considering most chaos marines are usually mutated to the point that they are truly unique calling them the gender they were when it started is pretty useless.

    It also makes sense to leave the breeding stock at home and send away the expendable males--that one IG regiment vos-something first borns does this. Every solider(the first male born) knocks up a girl before he gets deployed so they'll always have fresh troops to send out.

    I really hope they have 3 gender choices for chaos, male, female and chaos. Haha that would get new players in the mood--welcome to chaos, everything you knew is gone you are an abomination whose entire purpose is to bring all life the word of chaos.

    Arghy on
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    ForumiteForumite Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2010
    -SPI- wrote: »
    Female? Really? You want to claim a follower of Slaanesh is going to have a clear and obvious gender one way or the other?

    That's just setting yourself up for a very awkward situation when you get "her" home after a night out. That and the part where you get eviscerated.

    There are more chaos factions than Slaneesh, and there is no denying that they're mostly male oriented.

    Since it's chaos, it really makes no sense that they mimic the same sausage fest all the other races have got going on. I can only really think of Slaneesh and the daemonettes as the only female monsters around.

    For that matter, are there even female Tau? You'd also think there'd be more female Imperial Guard since they are only used as fodder for the meatgrinder (more bodies would be a good thing) and since it's partially based on the Red Army (one of the first modern armies with a lot of female soldiers) there really should be more women in the Guard.

    Of course, the real reason there are no women in most armies and races is simply because women were not the target audience for buying the toy soldiers for so many years.

    At least we'll always have the sororitas. The most awesome faction in 40K

    Forumite on
    33tp6w6.gif
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    ZzuluZzulu Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    "FEMALES IN 40K" discussion aside, here's a new article on this MMO
    PC GAMER - DARK MILLENIUM ONLINE ARTICLE
    by Rich McCormick

    Grim Dark Future

    Remember that bit in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, where that Space Marine went into a Space Marine village and was cornered by a commoner with a yellow exclamation mark above his head? The one who told him to go out into his garden and kill ten snotlings that were terrorising his space-crops? No you don't, and neither does Mike Maza, creative director on Warhammer 40K Dark Millenium Online.
    "We just couldn't wrap our heads around a Space Marine killing ten wolves for their pelts. It's just not 40K. We don't want to give those kinds of quests to the players, we think it takes you out of the fiction. The objectives of our quests are far more epic than that."

    Warhammer 40K's grim future of inter-species war is perhaps the only universe you could get away with a 'kill X number of things' quest - except the number would be well into the thousands. But traditional online RPG models - all stilted combat and ritualistic toolbar presses - are anathema to a universe based on the sole unifying principle of smashing the faces off everything that ever existed.
    Dave Adams, founding father of devolpers Vigil, adds his perspective: "at first we said 'let's make a standard MMO. Guy goes in, dude's standing there, patrol walks by. I tap, select him, and hit one.' It was lousy."

    It didn't fit with the game played on tabletops across the world, it didn't fit the team's imagined experience, an most importantly, it didn't fit with 40K's endless, rapid-fire carnage.
    Dave explains his vision of the universe, devolped from 25 years of familiarity with Games Workshop products: "We're designing a cinematic, action-oriented MMO, balanced in terms of player-on-player and player-versus-enviroment battles. There's a lot of ranged combat, but also a healthy dose of melee. You're not gonna have a bunch of static spawns, you're not gonna have a bunch of random patrols." Virgil are playing in a universe defined by a quarter of a decade of development, tightened but enhanced by reams of backstory. Were they to produce a retextured WoW, they'd be chainsworded to death by armies of angry fans - and rightly so.



    Key Problem

    Fortunately, Vigil are aware of this. Dave has got some serious complaints about the whole MMO genre. Whole Genre, look away now: "You just pretty much hammer on the number keys. They're the same mechanic over and over again."
    Vigil previously worked on console-orientated action beat-'em up Darksiders. It was heavy on the reactive combat, full of man-stabbing and bloody moments calculated to make people shout "yeah!" and want to play air guitar. Dave argues the team learned more from that experience than they have from their MMO peers.

    "There's a lot more finesse in what you do in a console game. The moment-to-moment, the weight of the animations, the response, the effects. It's really all about the pace."
    Strong words from a team without a finished MMO of their own. But it's not like they're novices paddling in the genre pool: Dave himself left online specalists NCsoft in 2005 to found Vigil. I asked him whether he thought any other online worlds got combat right: "It's just not been a priority for them. A lot more attention is put into console games: if you sit down and play a MMO, and you actually compared it to a triple-A console game a lot of the stuff would never fly."

    I asked him why he thought that was. "A lot of devolpers see that as an opportunity to cut a corner because there's so much to do on an MMO. They think people care about X, Y and Z. They don't really care about the feeling of combat." But Vigil have to make the same world, the same economy, the same community as other online world-builders - how will their MMO break this apparent corner cutting culture?
    "That disparity isn't going to be tolerated for too long: eventually someone's going to do it and everyone else is going to have to follow suit. We want to be those people, and that pushed us towards a more action-oriented formula.

    Dave began to describe what he meant by this, but not before sticking a final power-armoured boot into MMO contemporaries. "If you see an MMO 20 feet away you know it's a MMO. There's a million icons on the screen, the interface is the same. They're so predictable. Our goal is when some guy's walking past DMO they won't instantly know it's a MMO. That depends on a minimal interface: it's not a full FPS but it looks more 'actiony'." Actiony is not a word. Define 'actiony', Dave!

    Mike Maza stepped in to help: "We've done away with the action bar icon from the screen - we've kept it down to essential elements for ranged combat." That's not to suggest that it's all shooting - half of Warhammer 40K is focused on getting within spitting distance of your enemy and then jabbing the pointiest thing your race knows about into their eye.

    But Mike says that's simpler to handle than gunplay. "Melee combat is relatively easy, we have tons of examples of how it's been done in the past." It's similarly easy to see how it'll be approached in DMO - a middle ground between kinetic feedback of single player fighting and the arcane dance of MMO combat.
    How the team will with frantic battlefield crossfire is less obvious. Internal discussions are still ongoing about shooting specifics, and subject to rapid change. John Mueller is DMO's art Director, and gave me an insight on the portions of the gun-game they have locked down, describing the design that's gone into 40K's signature sidearm: the Space Marine bolter. "We spend a lot of time just making those feel awesome. It's really one of the universe's primary weapons, it's important for us that it handles and sounds the way we and Games Workshop think it should."




    Gundamentals

    Space Marines are sorted then, but the still-unannounced races and classes not blessed with such a well-defined firearm won't be getting cast-offs. John's art team have spent time poring through the tomes of 40K history for gun-inspiration, and crikey, is this a universe that likes guns.
    "There's a lot of documentation about the weapons in 40K, but there's also things like a belt-fed stubber that might not have been drawn before. With these, we'll extrapolate it visually from other things in the canon." New guns will be canonical cannons, then.

    Your mouse-handling skills will pay more of a role than they would in a standard MMO, but the team agree that it's not going to be a twitch-centric shooter. Dave clarifies: "It's still an RPG. There's still stats. Your ability as a character is related to your level and the kind of loot you have."
    Loot! See, other MMO's: DMO migh flip its middle finger at you when you turn around, but it's still one of the guys. In terms of design, how this pick-uppable junk will change your character is defined by GW's dictation. John explains how the relationship between the companies affects aesthetics: "You have these character archetypes that Games Workshop have set. But at high levels we want to see how far we can go with the awesomeness of the gear."

    Calibrate your awesomeositors to register unprecedented awesomeosity.
    The intrinsic need for loot and gear means no jettisoning of the usual systems of shopping and crafting - though how they're going to be portrayed hasn't been explained yet. I asked John Mueller what Space Marine towns would look like, and his response was simple: "Space Marines don't have towns. It's not like our cities are specifically a 'Space Marine town', it's more just like a settlement in the Imperium, instead of a branded area."

    Artistically, how do they ensure that a genric settlement stays interesting and true to the fiction? "Everything is really old! That's what Games Workshop always say, whenever they put something in 40K, just make it look really old."

    As 40K's overlords, GW are protective of their invention: it wouldn't do for a tech priest of the Adeptus Mechanicus, servants of the Emperor and born from the ancient forge world of Mars to be wearing a funny hat. Space Marines wear power armour; necessity states you could end up looking like your friend if you play the same class. John explains how to get around this problem and still foster a sense of identity.
    "Character customisation is about progression, where you go and what you do in the world changes how you look. Space Marine armour is so heavily adorned, you can imagine how the progression might go: a marine who's been on campaigns will make all kinds of adjustments to his armour reflecting his experience." I'm mentally accessorising my marine already: a nice Tyranid tooth necklace would bring out the red in my power armour.

    You're not going to be working from scratch, either. The Imperium is the only confirmed race so far, but every starting option has players coming into the game as a hero - there's no Space Marine toliet cleaning duty to earn your stripes. A good thing when you're up against genetically superior backsides. Mike quickly outlined a typical opening to a newly minted character.

    "There's scenarios that introduce you to your class. We'll throw you into your very first instance, to get a feel for a very player directed experience. Then you'll go to your trainers and merchants, and drop down onto the over-world from orbit." The team kept schtum on how travelling between worlds would work in-game, but planet-hopping is necessary to advance - the Sargos sector in which the game is set is a big chunk of space.




    Titanic

    It's not just your character you'll be customisng: mechanical war machines are central to DMO, as they are to the 40K fiction. The game's first trailer teases viewers, ending on footage of a five storey walker romping across a blasted landscape. That two-legged monster was a Titan, one of 40K's largest and most killy war-bastards - and Dave confirms that a player was controlling it.
    "You'll use vehicles in PvE, you'll use them in the general over-world, and you'll use them in PvP." These vehicles can be run with crew, seperate players taking on the roles of gunner, driver and man who stand on top and yells "DRIVE FASTER!"

    Or you can go it alone. "In a tank, you can control the primary turret, but you don;t have full command of all the weapons on the tank. If someone jumps in the primary turret then you might just be driving." 40K's grab-bag of lethal vehicular toys makes this prospect a tasty one: the game's first trailers clearly point at a number of the universe's iconic battle-tanks, such as the Predator.
    Handling is pitched somewhere between the simplistic and simulation, but Vigil are keen to keep the physical connection: glide toward another player on a turbo-charged bike and you'll thunk into them: "you can't drive through another tank like it isn't there. That just looks wierd." Mike singled out the PvP battlegrounds as a particular hotbed of vehicle use, but wouldn't be drawn into explaining quite how they'll work when used against your fellow human.

    Developing a game in Warhammer 40K's universe brings specific challenges. Traditional MMO's are built around downtime, longer periods of peace, shopping and chatting between raids. You stop to chat in 40K's fiction and you'll get sliced apart by shurikens, turned into a gibbering inside-out mass of muscle by Chaos gods, or biffed in the gob by a powerfist.
    As the sourcebooks regularly remind us, there is "ONLY WAR!" in the 41st millenium. Dave has a philosphical way of handling this issue. "I imagine the 40K universe as a giant machine who's output is war - but it's still a machine. There's still cogs and pistons, there's still all the internal machinations and working of a machine that makes the war."

    Neat concept, but let's frame it in the hour-to-hour of playing the game.
    "There's a lot going on off the battlefield. Sure, war in the battlegrounds and PvP conflicts are a big part of the game. But another big part of the game is just exploring what's going on off the battlefield, following the fluff and stories."

    War in DMO is stratified, taken further than the pew-pew in direct conflict - it's about the thrill of the chase, the long-game questlines.

    Even just for the Imperium, one of the many not-yet confirmed races, there's different types of war: "the war on the battlefield, the psychological war the Imperium engages in to maintain this giant organisation and prevent rebellion, the war against Chaos." Life in Dark Millenium Online is intended to be a constant struggle, full of constant threat that -Vigil hopes- will provide enough of an incentive to live in a constant universe where war reigns.

    Zzulu on
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    XOCentricXOCentric Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Zzulu wrote: »
    "FEMALES IN 40K" discussion aside, here's a new article on this MMO
    PC GAMER - DARK MILLENIUM ONLINE ARTICLE
    by Rich McCormick

    Grim Dark Future

    Remember that bit in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, where that Space Marine went into a Space Marine village and was cornered by a commoner with a yellow exclamation mark above his head? The one who told him to go out into his garden and kill ten snotlings that were terrorising his space-crops? No you don't, and neither does Mike Maza, creative director on Warhammer 40K Dark Millenium Online.
    "We just couldn't wrap our heads around a Space Marine killing ten wolves for their pelts. It's just not 40K. We don't want to give those kinds of quests to the players, we think it takes you out of the fiction. The objectives of our quests are far more epic than that."

    Warhammer 40K's grim future of inter-species war is perhaps the only universe you could get away with a 'kill X number of things' quest - except the number would be well into the thousands. But traditional online RPG models - all stilted combat and ritualistic toolbar presses - are anathema to a universe based on the sole unifying principle of smashing the faces off everything that ever existed.
    Dave Adams, founding father of devolpers Vigil, adds his perspective: "at first we said 'let's make a standard MMO. Guy goes in, dude's standing there, patrol walks by. I tap, select him, and hit one.' It was lousy."

    It didn't fit with the game played on tabletops across the world, it didn't fit the team's imagined experience, an most importantly, it didn't fit with 40K's endless, rapid-fire carnage.
    Dave explains his vision of the universe, devolped from 25 years of familiarity with Games Workshop products: "We're designing a cinematic, action-oriented MMO, balanced in terms of player-on-player and player-versus-enviroment battles. There's a lot of ranged combat, but also a healthy dose of melee. You're not gonna have a bunch of static spawns, you're not gonna have a bunch of random patrols." Virgil are playing in a universe defined by a quarter of a decade of development, tightened but enhanced by reams of backstory. Were they to produce a retextured WoW, they'd be chainsworded to death by armies of angry fans - and rightly so.



    Key Problem

    Fortunately, Vigil are aware of this. Dave has got some serious complaints about the whole MMO genre. Whole Genre, look away now: "You just pretty much hammer on the number keys. They're the same mechanic over and over again."
    Vigil previously worked on console-orientated action beat-'em up Darksiders. It was heavy on the reactive combat, full of man-stabbing and bloody moments calculated to make people shout "yeah!" and want to play air guitar. Dave argues the team learned more from that experience than they have from their MMO peers.

    "There's a lot more finesse in what you do in a console game. The moment-to-moment, the weight of the animations, the response, the effects. It's really all about the pace."
    Strong words from a team without a finished MMO of their own. But it's not like they're novices paddling in the genre pool: Dave himself left online specalists NCsoft in 2005 to found Vigil. I asked him whether he thought any other online worlds got combat right: "It's just not been a priority for them. A lot more attention is put into console games: if you sit down and play a MMO, and you actually compared it to a triple-A console game a lot of the stuff would never fly."

    I asked him why he thought that was. "A lot of devolpers see that as an opportunity to cut a corner because there's so much to do on an MMO. They think people care about X, Y and Z. They don't really care about the feeling of combat." But Vigil have to make the same world, the same economy, the same community as other online world-builders - how will their MMO break this apparent corner cutting culture?
    "That disparity isn't going to be tolerated for too long: eventually someone's going to do it and everyone else is going to have to follow suit. We want to be those people, and that pushed us towards a more action-oriented formula.

    Dave began to describe what he meant by this, but not before sticking a final power-armoured boot into MMO contemporaries. "If you see an MMO 20 feet away you know it's a MMO. There's a million icons on the screen, the interface is the same. They're so predictable. Our goal is when some guy's walking past DMO they won't instantly know it's a MMO. That depends on a minimal interface: it's not a full FPS but it looks more 'actiony'." Actiony is not a word. Define 'actiony', Dave!

    Mike Maza stepped in to help: "We've done away with the action bar icon from the screen - we've kept it down to essential elements for ranged combat." That's not to suggest that it's all shooting - half of Warhammer 40K is focused on getting within spitting distance of your enemy and then jabbing the pointiest thing your race knows about into their eye.

    But Mike says that's simpler to handle than gunplay. "Melee combat is relatively easy, we have tons of examples of how it's been done in the past." It's similarly easy to see how it'll be approached in DMO - a middle ground between kinetic feedback of single player fighting and the arcane dance of MMO combat.
    How the team will with frantic battlefield crossfire is less obvious. Internal discussions are still ongoing about shooting specifics, and subject to rapid change. John Mueller is DMO's art Director, and gave me an insight on the portions of the gun-game they have locked down, describing the design that's gone into 40K's signature sidearm: the Space Marine bolter. "We spend a lot of time just making those feel awesome. It's really one of the universe's primary weapons, it's important for us that it handles and sounds the way we and Games Workshop think it should."




    Gundamentals

    Space Marines are sorted then, but the still-unannounced races and classes not blessed with such a well-defined firearm won't be getting cast-offs. John's art team have spent time poring through the tomes of 40K history for gun-inspiration, and crikey, is this a universe that likes guns.
    "There's a lot of documentation about the weapons in 40K, but there's also things like a belt-fed stubber that might not have been drawn before. With these, we'll extrapolate it visually from other things in the canon." New guns will be canonical cannons, then.

    Your mouse-handling skills will pay more of a role than they would in a standard MMO, but the team agree that it's not going to be a twitch-centric shooter. Dave clarifies: "It's still an RPG. There's still stats. Your ability as a character is related to your level and the kind of loot you have."
    Loot! See, other MMO's: DMO migh flip its middle finger at you when you turn around, but it's still one of the guys. In terms of design, how this pick-uppable junk will change your character is defined by GW's dictation. John explains how the relationship between the companies affects aesthetics: "You have these character archetypes that Games Workshop have set. But at high levels we want to see how far we can go with the awesomeness of the gear."

    Calibrate your awesomeositors to register unprecedented awesomeosity.
    The intrinsic need for loot and gear means no jettisoning of the usual systems of shopping and crafting - though how they're going to be portrayed hasn't been explained yet. I asked John Mueller what Space Marine towns would look like, and his response was simple: "Space Marines don't have towns. It's not like our cities are specifically a 'Space Marine town', it's more just like a settlement in the Imperium, instead of a branded area."

    Artistically, how do they ensure that a genric settlement stays interesting and true to the fiction? "Everything is really old! That's what Games Workshop always say, whenever they put something in 40K, just make it look really old."

    As 40K's overlords, GW are protective of their invention: it wouldn't do for a tech priest of the Adeptus Mechanicus, servants of the Emperor and born from the ancient forge world of Mars to be wearing a funny hat. Space Marines wear power armour; necessity states you could end up looking like your friend if you play the same class. John explains how to get around this problem and still foster a sense of identity.
    "Character customisation is about progression, where you go and what you do in the world changes how you look. Space Marine armour is so heavily adorned, you can imagine how the progression might go: a marine who's been on campaigns will make all kinds of adjustments to his armour reflecting his experience." I'm mentally accessorising my marine already: a nice Tyranid tooth necklace would bring out the red in my power armour.

    You're not going to be working from scratch, either. The Imperium is the only confirmed race so far, but every starting option has players coming into the game as a hero - there's no Space Marine toliet cleaning duty to earn your stripes. A good thing when you're up against genetically superior backsides. Mike quickly outlined a typical opening to a newly minted character.

    "There's scenarios that introduce you to your class. We'll throw you into your very first instance, to get a feel for a very player directed experience. Then you'll go to your trainers and merchants, and drop down onto the over-world from orbit." The team kept schtum on how travelling between worlds would work in-game, but planet-hopping is necessary to advance - the Sargos sector in which the game is set is a big chunk of space.




    Titanic

    It's not just your character you'll be customisng: mechanical war machines are central to DMO, as they are to the 40K fiction. The game's first trailer teases viewers, ending on footage of a five storey walker romping across a blasted landscape. That two-legged monster was a Titan, one of 40K's largest and most killy war-bastards - and Dave confirms that a player was controlling it.
    "You'll use vehicles in PvE, you'll use them in the general over-world, and you'll use them in PvP." These vehicles can be run with crew, seperate players taking on the roles of gunner, driver and man who stand on top and yells "DRIVE FASTER!"

    Or you can go it alone. "In a tank, you can control the primary turret, but you don;t have full command of all the weapons on the tank. If someone jumps in the primary turret then you might just be driving." 40K's grab-bag of lethal vehicular toys makes this prospect a tasty one: the game's first trailers clearly point at a number of the universe's iconic battle-tanks, such as the Predator.
    Handling is pitched somewhere between the simplistic and simulation, but Vigil are keen to keep the physical connection: glide toward another player on a turbo-charged bike and you'll thunk into them: "you can't drive through another tank like it isn't there. That just looks wierd." Mike singled out the PvP battlegrounds as a particular hotbed of vehicle use, but wouldn't be drawn into explaining quite how they'll work when used against your fellow human.

    Developing a game in Warhammer 40K's universe brings specific challenges. Traditional MMO's are built around downtime, longer periods of peace, shopping and chatting between raids. You stop to chat in 40K's fiction and you'll get sliced apart by shurikens, turned into a gibbering inside-out mass of muscle by Chaos gods, or biffed in the gob by a powerfist.
    As the sourcebooks regularly remind us, there is "ONLY WAR!" in the 41st millenium. Dave has a philosphical way of handling this issue. "I imagine the 40K universe as a giant machine who's output is war - but it's still a machine. There's still cogs and pistons, there's still all the internal machinations and working of a machine that makes the war."

    Neat concept, but let's frame it in the hour-to-hour of playing the game.
    "There's a lot going on off the battlefield. Sure, war in the battlegrounds and PvP conflicts are a big part of the game. But another big part of the game is just exploring what's going on off the battlefield, following the fluff and stories."

    War in DMO is stratified, taken further than the pew-pew in direct conflict - it's about the thrill of the chase, the long-game questlines.

    Even just for the Imperium, one of the many not-yet confirmed races, there's different types of war: "the war on the battlefield, the psychological war the Imperium engages in to maintain this giant organisation and prevent rebellion, the war against Chaos." Life in Dark Millenium Online is intended to be a constant struggle, full of constant threat that -Vigil hopes- will provide enough of an incentive to live in a constant universe where war reigns.

    So... planetside wrapped in a 40k skin sorta-ish? I can dig it.

    Problem:

    Buying gear -

    A space marine would sooner be parted from a limb than give up his gear for phat loot he found on the battlefield. They don't go around "buying" or trading for new kit. And the don't typically partake in bouts of "pimp my armor" by adding frilly bits and shit.

    An IG soldier might trade a few lho-sticks or something for a more functional, less decrepit lasgun if he didn't fear retribution from the commisariat, expect that EVERY guardsman should fear the commissars. Pimping ones armor with trinkets and trophies generally earns you a shot in the dome for being a xeno-lover.

    The Imperium and the Imperial Creed frowns upon using shit you find sitting around, and doing so most likely would end with you being branded a tech-heretic, chaos worshipper, or xenophile. All of which ends with your summary execution or forced confession then flaying or disecction or whatever other punishment can be imagined.

    For Orks, lootin' everything that's not tied down and tradin' it for teef is an approved and expected practice. Ork boyz revel in having jingly bitz and trophies tacked all over themselves for the most part.

    Chaos soldiers are an unpredictable lot but instances of them using captured Imperial tech is widespread. Dressing up for them typically involves trying to look like their chosen gods more adept troops.

    XOCentric on
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