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The new American Flag

Lady EriLady Eri Registered User regular
edited September 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
So those of you who follow such things might have been aware that recently the last hurdles for Puerto Rican statehood have all but been removed, and the final plebiscite vote has been scheduled for middle of 2011. Which brings us to (among other things including 102 senators and a new filibuster model) flags.

What do you think the next flag should look like? The 50 stars have been a staple for well over 50 years. I myself prefer:

450px-US_51-star_alternate_flag.svg.png

Or even a vertical version would be pretty cool. I like the circular design for sure though.

Lady Eri on
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    ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Here's the vertical design for comparison, off Wikipedia:

    380px-US_flag_51_stars.svg.png

    Wiki claims the United States Army Institute of Heraldry has a design ready, but it doesn't show what it is.

    ronya on
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    HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Hoz on
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    FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I think the easiest would be to just use the vertical setup. Most similar to the old one, so emblems and flags and other memorabilia aren't immediately obsolete.

    The circular one is cool, but too different. And things have changed since the last time the flag was changed. Media is significantly more visual now, and changing iconography can't be taken as lightly anymore.

    FirstComradeStalin on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I approve of the circular design. How's statehood polling these days?

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The circular one causes an optical illusion for me - I can't not see a larger five-prong "star" in the midst of the star cluster.

    DarkPrimus on
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    matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Unless they take the vote to become the 51st state out of the hands of the actual Puerto Rican voters, this isn't going to happen. They've shot it down repeatedly and nearly unanimously every time it's come up. So, don't start buying stock in flag companies.

    matt has a problem on
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    HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    In 1998 the split was 50-46 against. Not that unanimous.

    2.5% voted for independence, hehe. It's less popular there than in Alaska or Texas.

    Hoz on
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    matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Hoz wrote: »
    In 1998 the split was 50-46 against. Not that unanimous.
    The actual people of Puerto Rico have to vote on it (wanting to change their commonwealth status), not congress. Congress only comes into play if the people of Puerto Rico vote to change their status with the US.

    matt has a problem on
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    HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The alternating 8/9 star rows is, as far as I know, the intended design if another state is ever added. It was made by Bob Heft shortly after his 50 star design was adopted. When he died last year, a couple city buildings here in Saginaw where he was born chose to fly his 51 star design at half mast as a special tribute.

    Anyway, what's changed recently with regards to statehood? The last I read any news was back in June, but at the time the larger two of their three political parties were both going towards increased self-determination as a commonwealth (I remember thinking that pretty much sunk the ship for statehood forever, too, since one of those parties had been billed as the Statehood party by our media instead of it's proper name), and the UN was calling on the US to expedite full self determination and the option for independence.

    Hevach on
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    HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Hoz wrote: »
    In 1998 the split was 50-46 against. Not that unanimous.
    The actual people of Puerto Rico have to vote on it (wanting to change their commonwealth status), not congress. Congress only comes into play if the people of Puerto Rico vote to change their status with the US.
    Yes, the 1998 vote was the actual people of Puerto Rico.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Puerto_Rico#Plebiscite_results

    Hoz on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Should be noted, the Senate hasn't acted on it, and the Republicans will never allow it to be acted on. As it would be 2 Senators, 6 Representatives, and 8 electoral votes, most if not all of which would go to Democrats.

    For similar reasons, DC statehood will never happen.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Hoz wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    In 1998 the split was 50-46 against. Not that unanimous.
    The actual people of Puerto Rico have to vote on it (wanting to change their commonwealth status), not congress. Congress only comes into play if the people of Puerto Rico vote to change their status with the US.
    Yes, the 1998 vote was the actual people of Puerto Rico.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Puerto_Rico#Plebiscite_results
    Ah, you meant percent, I thought you meant number of Senators. I'd say having it defeated 3 times is pretty concrete though. All it is now is a political move.

    matt has a problem on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Hoz wrote: »
    Hoz wrote: »
    In 1998 the split was 50-46 against. Not that unanimous.
    The actual people of Puerto Rico have to vote on it (wanting to change their commonwealth status), not congress. Congress only comes into play if the people of Puerto Rico vote to change their status with the US.
    Yes, the 1998 vote was the actual people of Puerto Rico.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Puerto_Rico#Plebiscite_results
    Ah, you meant percent, I thought you meant number of Senators. I'd say having it defeated 3 times is pretty concrete though. All it is now is a political move.

    Times change. Last attempt was 12 years ago, I vaguely recall seeing a poll with something like 53% support for statehood in maybe 2007?

    enlightenedbum on
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    HozHoz Cool Cat Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I think a Republican President would have to be behind this for it to get done. The right-wing will explode if Obama pushes this.

    Hoz on
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Kind of depends which states would lose House seats, the more I think about it.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Hoz wrote: »
    I think a Republican President would have to be behind this for it to get done. The right-wing will explode if Obama pushes this.

    Honestly, nothing the man does, other than possibly claiming to become a born again Christian while in office, changing parties and/or resigning, will cause the right wing to settle down from their current fever pitch, so what difference does it make?

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    Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Hoz wrote: »
    I think a Republican President would have to be behind this for it to get done. The right-wing will explode if Obama pushes this.

    Honestly, nothing the man does, other than possibly claiming to become a born again Christian while in office, changing parties and/or resigning, will cause the right wing to settle down from their current fever pitch, so what difference does it make?

    It's not like he has to push anything- it's entirely up to the people of puerto rico, right? As long as he doesn't veto it or something it'll happen eventually.

    Also both these new flag designs really throw me, especially the circle one. That would be hard to get used to.

    Pi-r8 on
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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I can not imagine the rabid rage should the flag be changed to a circular design
    It would be 2 minutes until people find muslim imagery and 2,1 minutes until they blame obama

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
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    Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    to be honest the thing that jumped out at me from the circular design is that it looks like it has a peace sign in it.

    Pi-r8 on
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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I can not imagine the rabid rage should the flag be changed to a circular design
    It would be 2 minutes until people find muslim imagery and 2,1 minutes until they blame obama

    Plus it looks like the UN flag, all circular.

    NEW WORLD ORDER DERP DERP.

    Malkor on
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    PasserbyePasserbye I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I like the circular design.

    Passerbye on
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    MuncieMuncie Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I see a sand dollar in the circular design. I wonder if I cross my eyes if I'll see a sail boat.

    Nope, no boat.

    I don't really care for it. The proportion seems all fucked up since the blue field is a square and there is all that empty space in the corners.

    All the Puerto Ricans I know don't seem to give much of a crap about statehood either way. But they live in Tampa and are Florida residents so I guess they wouldn't.

    Anyone know how the distribution of House members would work? I assume the US Census is taken in Puerto Rico so the same distribution model they use for that would work, but what's the time line? Would they immediately get house seats, is there a period of time where PR would be the new guy and get all the grunt work until Guam becomes a state?

    Could representatives from PR speak Spanish in Congress?

    So many questions!

    Muncie on
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Muncie wrote: »
    I see a sand dollar in the circular design. I wonder if I cross my eyes if I'll see a sail boat.

    Nope, no boat.

    It's a schooner!


    Meh... the straight-line flag could occur probably without anybody noticing the change... which is probably the best course of action.

    Though I'm also in the camp that thinks Puerto Rico doesn't even want to become a state.

    Chanus on
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    PasserbyePasserbye I am much older than you. in Beach CityRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I thought they'd already voted against becoming a state, so I'm surprised this is coming up again.

    Chanus:
    You know what? There is NO Easter Bunny! Over there, that's just a guy in a suit!

    Passerbye on
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    SimpsonsParadoxSimpsonsParadox Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Muncie wrote: »
    I don't really care for it. The proportion seems all fucked up since the blue field is a square and there is all that empty space in the corners.

    This is pretty much my problem with it as well. That blank space is rather eye catching, to the point where I can't look at that circular design without my eyes being drawn to one of the corners. Even if I'm staring at the center, it just hangs there right in the corner of my vision. It actually kind of hurts.

    I don't think it will matter too much in the long run, though, as PR has a long history of shooting down this sort of thing.

    SimpsonsParadox on
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Both official party platforms from '08 support statehood.

    The shitstorm of conservative media around it will be awesome, though.

    "Obama wants to dump 4 million aliens into your medicare."

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    HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    It's not like he has to push anything- it's entirely up to the people of puerto rico, right? As long as he doesn't veto it or something it'll happen eventually.

    It's not entirely up to them, it has to pass their legislature and Congress, neither of which are givens, and don't necessarily follow one to the next - Hawaii and Alaska were both denied statehood several times (Hawaii despite territorial government petition and Alaska despite overwhelming support from the population), and before the Civil War it was even more common to deny admission of new states because of the carefully maintained balance between slave and free states.

    It's worth saying after that, though, that there really isn't a procedure for admission as a state. The Constitution has all of one sentence on the matter and zero specifics. It's been done a bit differently just about every time. For Hawaii, Congress passed a bill asking the people of Hawaii to vote to become a state or remain a territory and promised to abide by whichever decision they made, but for Alaska a law was simply passed making it a State outright. There's even precedent for handing states a like-it-or-not admission.

    I can not imagine the rabid rage should the flag be changed to a circular design
    It would be 2 minutes until people find muslim imagery and 2,1 minutes until they blame obama

    It's not hard to see a crescent in a circle formation, but forget the muslim imagery. Blur your eyes a bit and look at the third ring out and the bottom right straight line of stars, you can clearly see the sickle. Shift your focus a bit and you can clearly see the matching hammer at the bottom left.

    Hevach on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    A change would be nice but I'd say stick with the vertical just for the sake of grade school children everywhere who want/have to draw the flag at some point.

    Quid on
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    Orochi_RockmanOrochi_Rockman __BANNED USERS regular
    edited September 2010
    For simplicities sake it should just be one big star followed by x 51. The newspaper headlines for when its official could read "Shine Get!"

    Orochi_Rockman on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The circular one causes an optical illusion for me - I can't not see a larger five-prong "star" in the midst of the star cluster.

    goddamit

    Arch on
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    Cameron_TalleyCameron_Talley Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The circular one causes an optical illusion for me - I can't not see a larger five-prong "star" in the midst of the star cluster.

    goddamit

    I saw that immediately. But I don't think anything is wrong with that.

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    HachfaceHachface Not the Minister Farrakhan you're thinking of Dammit, Shepard!Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I <3 the circular design

    Hachface on
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    TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I like the circle

    Maybe one of the stars, doesn't matter which one, could be brown.

    TL DR on
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    LovelyLovely Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Personally, I wouldn't mind PR becoming a state because it's kinda annoying having people be shocked when you tell them that Puerto Rican's are US citizens. Which makes the whole, "This is america, speak english DUR HUR HUR! " stuff even more annoying*. Granted, I live in the south, land of the ret-er, silly-geese.

    Seems now-a-days though, racism against brown folk of any kind is the popular thing to do, so I'm afraid of how much worse it's going to get if this goes through.

    .....sigh :( .

    *Even more annoying when folk around here assume that someone speaking with a spanish accent isn't speaking English >( .

    Lovely on
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    ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I'm interested in this particular thread, having not really heard much about Puerto Rico being granted statehood.

    Would someone who is more intimate with the subject be willing to give a rundown of the pros and cons of such a thing happening? I plan on doing more research when I'm not at work, but some baseline information would be great.

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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    The circular one causes an optical illusion for me - I can't not see a larger five-prong "star" in the midst of the star cluster.

    goddamit

    I saw that immediately. But I don't think anything is wrong with that.

    I actually like it, but y'know, can't unsee and all that

    Arch on
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    wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I like the circle design, and I can't wait for the day that DC and PR become states.

    wwtMask on
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    KanedaxKanedax Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Lovely wrote: »
    Personally, I wouldn't mind PR becoming a state because it's kinda annoying having people be shocked when you tell them that Puerto Rican's are US citizens. Which makes the whole, "This is america, speak english DUR HUR HUR! " stuff even more annoying*. Granted, I live in the south, land of the ret-er, silly-geese.

    Seems now-a-days though, racism against brown folk of any kind is the popular thing to do, so I'm afraid of how much worse it's going to get if this goes through.

    .....sigh :( .

    *Even more annoying when folk around here assume that someone speaking with a spanish accent isn't speaking English >( .

    I dunno man, I would think it would be common sense that if you relocate to a place in which English is the primary spoken language that you would at least try to learn the language and speak it instead of expecting the people who live in an English speaking country to learn your language just to accomodate you.

    Doesn't make much sense does it?

    Kanedax on
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    ArchArch Neat-o, mosquito! Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I like the circle design, and I can't wait for the day that DC and PR become states.

    Y'know, I really never give much thought to the first one. Like, it never even crossed my mind that one day that could happen.

    Arch on
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    ChanusChanus Harbinger of the Spicy Rooster Apocalypse The Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    I like the circle design, and I can't wait for the day that DC and PR become states.

    Y'know, I really never give much thought to the first one. Like, it never even crossed my mind that one day that could happen.

    Isn't DC not being a state kind of the whole point of having a DC?

    Chanus on
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