When it comes to oil slide, using the appropriate strength is pretty key. I used to just use fierce all the time, but note that light and medium have projectile immunity at the loss of distance. Meaty dives can still tag characters on wakeup. A blocked oil slide can sometimes be saved by using an EX oil rocket. It's a risky move, but it's part of his bnb for getting damage. A combo that i see all the time is j.HK c.MK xx oil slide with followup.
I never see (and don't really play) Hakan as a pressure character. I usually see him played as an opportunist and making use of mixups. But with an air grab, a nice j.HK HP and MP the jump in route for pressure is doable. His air grab has beat out a lot of things i never thought it would. There's definitely pressure ability there, i just don't always succeed in it.
Oh and another tip to keep pressure is using LK oil more often and only doing long oils when you know you can pull it off. Heck even just oiling can be considered a pressure tactic since it really opens up Hakan's game.
The AE changes that i remember are as follows:
--Oil application stacks (this could be huge)
--The ability to cancel Oil Dive with Coward Crouch (thank goodness, i get a lot of these by accident by back dashing and then going for an oil up)
--A kick followup to oil slide that will oil up. So instead of doing the belly flop you oil up. It's unknown what level of oiling this gives you.
H*R on
Nintendo Network: WarrenMSP 3DS: 4184-2362-9697 PSN: Skywarrd
Its a one framer. I have a heck of a time with it.
It's a bitch.
I was doing the cr. MP --> st. RH, which I assume is also one frame, and spent about 30 minutes in the training room last night doing that and a few variations on the cross up crouching combos.
I was in a groove when I was nailing the MP --> RH most of the time, then I'd lose it almost immediately when I'd try and implement in a slightly different way (i.e., instead of dashing forward and doing it, walking and doing it, or different ranges).
Takes some getting used to.
Also, it seems 100x easier to do cr. lp --> cr. lp --> cr. lk --> scissors then cr. lp --> cr. lp --> cr. mk --> scissors.
Annoying .
Cr.strong -> st.forward is also a one frame link but feels much easier than cr.strong -> st.rh.
As for scissors combos, I noticed you were going for cr.shorts into sk last night. I think you should stick with that more until the timing becomes second nature. Leave the cr.forward related combos to cross ups, maybe?
I didnt think c.mp->s.rh was a link. The 6 frame start up on s.rh would make it too slow.
c.mp->s.mk is a one framer and s.mk has a 5 frame start up.
Bison's cr.mp is +6 on hit. St.rh and st.mk from bison (far) are both 6 frames startup. MK tends to be preferred over rh because it'll whiff on a lot of people from the wrong ranges and cr.mp has hella-push back. Also, generally speaking if you're in range to cr.mp -> st.rh you're in range to cr.mp -> cr.mk XX RH scissors which is very hit confirmable and a shit ton more damage (also, 2 frame link). Cr.mp -> far st.mk works if you're using cr.mp as a footsie.
If you want to do mk -> scissors (likely for the RH scissors for the added damage), throw in a standing lp instead of a crouching one. It's +7 on hit and makes that cr.mk link a rather easy 3 framer. Bison's close standing jab hits all crouchers (afaik) so there's no risk of whiffing. It's startup is rather slow (6 frames) so most people do lead off with a crouching jab CHAIN standing jab LINK cr.mk XX short scissors (block string) or RH scissors (hit confirm).
Cr.strong -> st.forward is also a one frame link but feels much easier than cr.strong -> st.rh.
As for scissors combos, I noticed you were going for cr.shorts into sk last night. I think you should stick with that more until the timing becomes second nature. Leave the cr.forward related combos to cross ups, maybe?
Agreed. The attempted changes I am making are jacking me up good, but I figure I have to keep at it to get the timings down.
I have to basically figure out how much of my trouble (in the adaptations) is simply I need to practice and how much is controller configuration.
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Problem with that one is that it has to be completely point blank. Far slp seems to whiff a lot.
I need to practice cmp cmk scissors.
After a normally spaced crossup with j.forward, I find that st.jab will almost always definitely hit. At the worst case, you end up doing far st.jab and you'd have to do a one frame link to cr.forward instead.
I think I'm just bad at spacing my jmk. It's bison's floaty jump. I'll get that perfect ambiguous crossup maybe 30% of the time.
it's funny, the crossup I space easiest? Cammy's jlk. I can combo out of that into bnb, no problem.
I'm pretty good at doing that ambiguous crossup. My problem is it's so ambiguous I don't know what side i'm going to end up on and end up charging the wrong way :[
I'm pretty good at doing that ambiguous crossup. My problem is it's so ambiguous I don't know what side i'm going to end up on and end up charging the wrong way :[
When this happens to me, I stop after c.LP, s.LP, c.MK and go for the throw. Your opponent has no idea that you charged the wrong way and if you land the cross-up, they're expecting you to finish with scissors so a grab isn't expected.
I suppose an alternate no-charge combo would be c.LP, s.LP, s.LK, s.HK (I think that's it). I've seen some pro Bisons use that but I never bothered to learn it.
When it comes to oil slide, using the appropriate strength is pretty key. I used to just use fierce all the time, but note that light and medium have projectile immunity at the loss of distance.
What!? Is this true? I thought it was just a weird hitbox that sometimes passes under and sometimes doesn't. Is it true projectile immunity? I.e. does it pass through low tiger shot?
Meaty dives can still tag characters on wakeup. A blocked oil slide can sometimes be saved by using an EX oil rocket. It's a risky move, but it's part of his bnb for getting damage. A combo that i see all the time is j.HK c.MK xx oil slide with followup.
What happens if they see the slide coming and just block low? Does light oil slide recover fast enough?
I never see (and don't really play) Hakan as a pressure character. I usually see him played as an opportunist and making use of mixups. But with an air grab, a nice j.HK HP and MP the jump in route for pressure is doable. His air grab has beat out a lot of things i never thought it would. There's definitely pressure ability there, i just don't always succeed in it.
His air grab is incredible. I don't know if it's quite Guile level, but grabbing Blanka out of rainbow ball is a great feeling.
Oh and another tip to keep pressure is using LK oil more often and only doing long oils when you know you can pull it off. Heck even just oiling can be considered a pressure tactic since it really opens up Hakan's game.
I only use MK or HK oil after an oil rocket. Even then, you have to be mindful of the spacing.
What I really need practice for is os teching. I need somebody to tick throw the shit out of me and force me to OS tech. It's my major weakness.
You know what's weird for me? I can tech the hell out of a lot of throws. Two of the characters I have the most trouble teching is Ryu and Ken.
Ken makes some sense to me due to the Kara-nonsense, but Ryu?
I dunno, I will mess up teching him a lot.
I'm not sure what causes this, but I have trouble teching Ryu too. Nobody else gives me trouble; when I mean to tech a throw, I usually tech the throw. With Ryu, I'll be mashing lp+lk as he's fucking throwing me and I get nothing.
I'm not sure what causes this, but I have trouble teching Ryu too. Nobody else gives me trouble; when I mean to tech a throw, I usually tech the throw. With Ryu, I'll be mashing lp+lk as he's fucking throwing me and I get nothing.
Honestly I toss it up to techs being hard online and Ryu being all over the internet.
Perhaps i overstated how good the light and medium slides are. They are not immune persay, as low tiger shot will still hit, but regular projectiles should go over him, while a heavy slide will get hit by the projectile. It's in the video, so that should clear it up when you're able to watch it. It's about 20 minutes total, but really worth it if you're into playing Hakan.
Light recovers pretty good, but the EX comes out quickly, has some invincibility and has more range. The EX is the key. It's not 100%, but it's an option to try after a blocked slide.
I'm more than happy to talk about Hakan, he gets a bad rap, but he's fun and interesting and he's got some neat tricks that other characters can't do.
H*R on
Nintendo Network: WarrenMSP 3DS: 4184-2362-9697 PSN: Skywarrd
What I really need practice for is os teching. I need somebody to tick throw the shit out of me and force me to OS tech. It's my major weakness.
You know what's weird for me? I can tech the hell out of a lot of throws. Two of the characters I have the most trouble teching is Ryu and Ken.
Ken makes some sense to me due to the Kara-nonsense, but Ryu?
I dunno, I will mess up teching him a lot.
I'm not sure what causes this, but I have trouble teching Ryu too. Nobody else gives me trouble; when I mean to tech a throw, I usually tech the throw. With Ryu, I'll be mashing lp+lk as he's fucking throwing me and I get nothing.
Even if you're mashing a tech, there's a chance they can still throw you. If they delay the throw slightly, they can catch you in the startup frames of your c.LK that comes from your attempted OS. If that's the case, there's nothing you can do.
Even if you're mashing a tech, there's a chance they can still throw you. If they delay the throw slightly, they can catch you in the startup frames of your c.LK that comes from your attempted OS. If that's the case, there's nothing you can do.
Not only that, but it extends the range you can be thrown at.
That's a nice little feature .
I don't blame online for missing techs, I just think the window is different for Ryu.
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PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Perhaps i overstated how good the light and medium slides are. They are not immune persay, as low tiger shot will still hit, but regular projectiles should go over him, while a heavy slide will get hit by the projectile. It's in the video, so that should clear it up when you're able to watch it. It's about 20 minutes total, but really worth it if you're into playing Hakan.
Light recovers pretty good, but the EX comes out quickly, has some invincibility and has more range. The EX is the key. It's not 100%, but it's an option to try after a blocked slide.
I'm more than happy to talk about Hakan, he gets a bad rap, but he's fun and interesting and he's got some neat tricks that other characters can't do.
So, you're saying it is more of a hitbox management thing? I've been able to go under fireballs if I can hit the opponent before the tail end of the slide. Could you, for example, slide under a fireball from full screen with LP slide without hitting in the same way Dhalsim does with cr. MK slide?
Hakan is way fun, but I'm of the opinion his bad rap is caused by him being bad. I'll watch those videos when I get home and see if my opinion improves any.
What I really need practice for is os teching. I need somebody to tick throw the shit out of me and force me to OS tech. It's my major weakness.
You know what's weird for me? I can tech the hell out of a lot of throws. Two of the characters I have the most trouble teching is Ryu and Ken.
Ken makes some sense to me due to the Kara-nonsense, but Ryu?
I dunno, I will mess up teching him a lot.
I'm not sure what causes this, but I have trouble teching Ryu too. Nobody else gives me trouble; when I mean to tech a throw, I usually tech the throw. With Ryu, I'll be mashing lp+lk as he's fucking throwing me and I get nothing.
Even if you're mashing a tech, there's a chance they can still throw you. If they delay the throw slightly, they can catch you in the startup frames of your c.LK that comes from your attempted OS. If that's the case, there's nothing you can do.
Oh I know, I just feel like I'm timing these things exactly right. Mashing probably isn't the best word. I'd say "furiously pressing lp+lk once at the exact time I expect to be thrown" instead.
It's likely that I just couldn't tell that they were delaying it ever so slightly, but I just remember this one Ryu I was playing against would do some cr lp cr lp cr mp blockstring into throw. I knew the throw was coming, waited for it, teched at exactly the time I would tech a throw against anyone else, and still got thrown. The tech window's huge isn't it?
Perhaps i overstated how good the light and medium slides are. They are not immune persay, as low tiger shot will still hit, but regular projectiles should go over him, while a heavy slide will get hit by the projectile. It's in the video, so that should clear it up when you're able to watch it. It's about 20 minutes total, but really worth it if you're into playing Hakan.
Light recovers pretty good, but the EX comes out quickly, has some invincibility and has more range. The EX is the key. It's not 100%, but it's an option to try after a blocked slide.
I'm more than happy to talk about Hakan, he gets a bad rap, but he's fun and interesting and he's got some neat tricks that other characters can't do.
So, you're saying it is more of a hitbox management thing? I've been able to go under fireballs if I can hit the opponent before the tail end of the slide. Could you, for example, slide under a fireball from full screen with LP slide without hitting in the same way Dhalsim does with cr. MK slide?
Hakan is way fun, but I'm of the opinion his bad rap is caused by him being bad. I'll watch those videos when I get home and see if my opinion improves any.
He's definitly not OMGGREAT! but he's definitly not terrible, he's just complicated and misunderstood. 8-)
As time goes on i think more and more will be found about him and things will get better, especially if some of those buffs go through.
LP slide goes a very short distance, so full screen isn't going to work, but you can work the spacing so that you go under a hadoken and pop up right in their face for a nice ride on the oil rocket. Wait, i just re-read what you wrote. I've not tried that myself and i'm not sure i've seen it done, but i'll definitely try it out. I've only used it to hit with, not as a dodge. I usually use coward crouch for that.
The videos will show you some of the tools you have with him like dash normal cancelling and focus attack dash normal cancelling. They don't always come up, but if you're oiled and on wakeup a backdash LK cancel can be very handy.
H*R on
Nintendo Network: WarrenMSP 3DS: 4184-2362-9697 PSN: Skywarrd
Wait, you can choose to have Hakan's super be either attack-, throw-, or projectile-immune depending on which button you use? This is the first I've heard of that property.
Sev: Your gameplay is the most heavily yomi based around. Usually you look for characters that allow you to force guessing situations for big dmg. Even if the guess is mathematically nowhere near in your favor lol. You're happiest when you have either a 50/50, 33/33/33 or even a 75/25 situation to go crazy with. And you will take big risks to force those situations to come up.
Yeah, if the opponenent just crouches or can back away quicker than i can catch then with the super or oil dive for that matter, i'm usually eating a huge punish. The backing off i understand, it's the crouching that gets my goat.
EDIT: Right now it's only in the arcade edition. There will probably be a patch for console sometime in the future.
H*R on
Nintendo Network: WarrenMSP 3DS: 4184-2362-9697 PSN: Skywarrd
Yeah, if the opponenent just crouches or can back away quicker than i can catch then with the super or oil dive for that matter, i'm usually eating a huge punish. The backing off i understand, it's the crouching that gets my goat.
EDIT: Right now it's only in the arcade edition. There will probably be a patch for console sometime in the future.
I feel like he should have Alex's stomp to compensate (for all the ducking), but that would probably make him way overpowered.
Yeah, if the opponenent just crouches or can back away quicker than i can catch then with the super or oil dive for that matter, i'm usually eating a huge punish. The backing off i understand, it's the crouching that gets my goat.
EDIT: Right now it's only in the arcade edition. There will probably be a patch for console sometime in the future.
I feel like he should have Alex's stomp to compensate (for all the ducking), but that would probably make him way overpowered.
I never played SF3 that much, so i don't know what you're talking about, but i'll take your word for it.
Also note, I don't claim to be an expert on Hakan, i just enjoy playing him and try to get rid of some of the negative stigma that comes with him.
H*R on
Nintendo Network: WarrenMSP 3DS: 4184-2362-9697 PSN: Skywarrd
Yeah, if the opponenent just crouches or can back away quicker than i can catch then with the super or oil dive for that matter, i'm usually eating a huge punish. The backing off i understand, it's the crouching that gets my goat.
EDIT: Right now it's only in the arcade edition. There will probably be a patch for console sometime in the future.
I feel like he should have Alex's stomp to compensate (for all the ducking), but that would probably make him way overpowered.
I never played SF3 that much, so i don't know what you're talking about, but i'll take your word for it.
Also note, I don't claim to be an expert on Hakan, i just enjoy playing him and try to get rid of some of the negative stigma that comes with him.
Alex was the man in SF3. Not tier-wise, just in the sense of "America, fuck yeah!" He's got a command throw that hits crouchers and a jumping command throw that doesn't (sound familiar?) He also had a move to dash across the screen and elbow a dude in the face. At close range, he could threaten with the jumping throw (which you would duck) and a charged stomp that has to be blocked high and causes knockdown.
Anybody with good reflexes could tell between the two, but it at least forced you to pay attention. With Hakan, I feel like my opponents just back away and block low until I fuck up.
Posts
When it comes to oil slide, using the appropriate strength is pretty key. I used to just use fierce all the time, but note that light and medium have projectile immunity at the loss of distance. Meaty dives can still tag characters on wakeup. A blocked oil slide can sometimes be saved by using an EX oil rocket. It's a risky move, but it's part of his bnb for getting damage. A combo that i see all the time is j.HK c.MK xx oil slide with followup.
I never see (and don't really play) Hakan as a pressure character. I usually see him played as an opportunist and making use of mixups. But with an air grab, a nice j.HK HP and MP the jump in route for pressure is doable. His air grab has beat out a lot of things i never thought it would. There's definitely pressure ability there, i just don't always succeed in it.
Oh and another tip to keep pressure is using LK oil more often and only doing long oils when you know you can pull it off. Heck even just oiling can be considered a pressure tactic since it really opens up Hakan's game.
The AE changes that i remember are as follows:
--Oil application stacks (this could be huge)
--The ability to cancel Oil Dive with Coward Crouch (thank goodness, i get a lot of these by accident by back dashing and then going for an oil up)
--A kick followup to oil slide that will oil up. So instead of doing the belly flop you oil up. It's unknown what level of oiling this gives you.
3DS: 4184-2362-9697
PSN: Skywarrd
Cr.strong -> st.forward is also a one frame link but feels much easier than cr.strong -> st.rh.
As for scissors combos, I noticed you were going for cr.shorts into sk last night. I think you should stick with that more until the timing becomes second nature. Leave the cr.forward related combos to cross ups, maybe?
Bison's cr.mp is +6 on hit. St.rh and st.mk from bison (far) are both 6 frames startup. MK tends to be preferred over rh because it'll whiff on a lot of people from the wrong ranges and cr.mp has hella-push back. Also, generally speaking if you're in range to cr.mp -> st.rh you're in range to cr.mp -> cr.mk XX RH scissors which is very hit confirmable and a shit ton more damage (also, 2 frame link). Cr.mp -> far st.mk works if you're using cr.mp as a footsie.
The mk link is one frame. I can land it a lot but not enough to risk dropping a knockdown combo.
Mashing srk will beat either one on block though.
edit: aw
Agreed. The attempted changes I am making are jacking me up good, but I figure I have to keep at it to get the timings down.
I have to basically figure out how much of my trouble (in the adaptations) is simply I need to practice and how much is controller configuration.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
I need to practice cmp cmk scissors.
XBLGT:Banzeye SC2: Apollo.394
After a normally spaced crossup with j.forward, I find that st.jab will almost always definitely hit. At the worst case, you end up doing far st.jab and you'd have to do a one frame link to cr.forward instead.
No patch to consoles yet, these are AE location test finds. Hopefully some of them will become official.
Still doesn't prevent me from maining him. I might not win a lot, but i learn new stuff every match.
3DS: 4184-2362-9697
PSN: Skywarrd
it's funny, the crossup I space easiest? Cammy's jlk. I can combo out of that into bnb, no problem.
I'm pretty good at doing that ambiguous crossup. My problem is it's so ambiguous I don't know what side i'm going to end up on and end up charging the wrong way :[
(EDIT) Evil, let's play! I'm bored ;[
Hakan is fun as a troll character.
Who knows, maybe someone can be the epic troll.
XBLGT:Banzeye SC2: Apollo.394
You know what's weird for me? I can tech the hell out of a lot of throws. Two of the characters I have the most trouble teching is Ryu and Ken.
Ken makes some sense to me due to the Kara-nonsense, but Ryu?
I dunno, I will mess up teching him a lot.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
I plan to be on tonight but I really have to practice both singing and piano because I've been slacking.
When this happens to me, I stop after c.LP, s.LP, c.MK and go for the throw. Your opponent has no idea that you charged the wrong way and if you land the cross-up, they're expecting you to finish with scissors so a grab isn't expected.
I suppose an alternate no-charge combo would be c.LP, s.LP, s.LK, s.HK (I think that's it). I've seen some pro Bisons use that but I never bothered to learn it.
What happens if they see the slide coming and just block low? Does light oil slide recover fast enough?
His air grab is incredible. I don't know if it's quite Guile level, but grabbing Blanka out of rainbow ball is a great feeling.
I only use MK or HK oil after an oil rocket. Even then, you have to be mindful of the spacing.
Thanks for the info!
I'm not sure what causes this, but I have trouble teching Ryu too. Nobody else gives me trouble; when I mean to tech a throw, I usually tech the throw. With Ryu, I'll be mashing lp+lk as he's fucking throwing me and I get nothing.
Light recovers pretty good, but the EX comes out quickly, has some invincibility and has more range. The EX is the key. It's not 100%, but it's an option to try after a blocked slide.
I'm more than happy to talk about Hakan, he gets a bad rap, but he's fun and interesting and he's got some neat tricks that other characters can't do.
3DS: 4184-2362-9697
PSN: Skywarrd
Even if you're mashing a tech, there's a chance they can still throw you. If they delay the throw slightly, they can catch you in the startup frames of your c.LK that comes from your attempted OS. If that's the case, there's nothing you can do.
Not only that, but it extends the range you can be thrown at.
That's a nice little feature
I don't blame online for missing techs, I just think the window is different for Ryu.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
So, you're saying it is more of a hitbox management thing? I've been able to go under fireballs if I can hit the opponent before the tail end of the slide. Could you, for example, slide under a fireball from full screen with LP slide without hitting in the same way Dhalsim does with cr. MK slide?
Hakan is way fun, but I'm of the opinion his bad rap is caused by him being bad. I'll watch those videos when I get home and see if my opinion improves any.
Oh I know, I just feel like I'm timing these things exactly right. Mashing probably isn't the best word. I'd say "furiously pressing lp+lk once at the exact time I expect to be thrown" instead.
It's likely that I just couldn't tell that they were delaying it ever so slightly, but I just remember this one Ryu I was playing against would do some cr lp cr lp cr mp blockstring into throw. I knew the throw was coming, waited for it, teched at exactly the time I would tech a throw against anyone else, and still got thrown. The tech window's huge isn't it?
He's definitly not OMGGREAT! but he's definitly not terrible, he's just complicated and misunderstood. 8-)
As time goes on i think more and more will be found about him and things will get better, especially if some of those buffs go through.
LP slide goes a very short distance, so full screen isn't going to work, but you can work the spacing so that you go under a hadoken and pop up right in their face for a nice ride on the oil rocket. Wait, i just re-read what you wrote. I've not tried that myself and i'm not sure i've seen it done, but i'll definitely try it out. I've only used it to hit with, not as a dodge. I usually use coward crouch for that.
The videos will show you some of the tools you have with him like dash normal cancelling and focus attack dash normal cancelling. They don't always come up, but if you're oiled and on wakeup a backdash LK cancel can be very handy.
3DS: 4184-2362-9697
PSN: Skywarrd
People get so mad when they flop onto him for full ultra. It is hysterical.
3DS: 4184-2362-9697
PSN: Skywarrd
you will eat the biggest punish combo any time you miss it. Which happens a lot since crouching is the default.
I basically only use it to punish projectiles.
Also, can you cancel it in SSF4, or just arcade edition? If it's cancellable, that would help out a bit.
EDIT: Right now it's only in the arcade edition. There will probably be a patch for console sometime in the future.
3DS: 4184-2362-9697
PSN: Skywarrd
I feel like he should have Alex's stomp to compensate (for all the ducking), but that would probably make him way overpowered.
He really comes off as a class act in that interview.
3DS: 4184-2362-9697
PSN: Skywarrd
I never played SF3 that much, so i don't know what you're talking about, but i'll take your word for it.
Also note, I don't claim to be an expert on Hakan, i just enjoy playing him and try to get rid of some of the negative stigma that comes with him.
3DS: 4184-2362-9697
PSN: Skywarrd
Alex was the man in SF3. Not tier-wise, just in the sense of "America, fuck yeah!" He's got a command throw that hits crouchers and a jumping command throw that doesn't (sound familiar?) He also had a move to dash across the screen and elbow a dude in the face. At close range, he could threaten with the jumping throw (which you would duck) and a charged stomp that has to be blocked high and causes knockdown.
Anybody with good reflexes could tell between the two, but it at least forced you to pay attention. With Hakan, I feel like my opponents just back away and block low until I fuck up.