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999[DS] / VLR / ZE3 [3DS/PSV]: Wassup. You have ...Somnium Files? Siggyyy. Phidooo.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    nope, I remember that pretty well.
    ? says he is kyle, akane says he is not because kyle went back to the past to save the world

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Jars wrote: »
    nope, I remember that pretty well.
    ? says he is kyle, akane says he is not because kyle went back to the past to save the world

    Wait, but
    how could he have gone to DCOM in the first place? Like, how old is Kyle? Wasn't he born on Rhizome-9? At the very least, I remember one D-team ending in which Sigma laments that Kyle, Luna, Lagomorph, and all the others won't be born, because he's about to die.

    I think some of the asshole choices, especially the showers, make some reference to ?'s possible presence and influence. But that's kind of weirdly ambiguous; it could be a reference to mind hacking as well.

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    One of the themes of the ending that they mentioned a few times in the game was:
    This is a "good" ending, right? With "good" being in that kind of sarcastic, debatable sense. You saved everybody in the game and stopped the outbreak and 6 billion genocide that you know about. You murdered unsuspecting versions of yourselves to do it and now there's an unknown 8 billion genocide that could happen. This is "good"... yeah? VLR suggested this as well with Tenmyouji's end speech of "Going back in time and stopping the outbreak, yeah great, fuck my life with Quark though I guess".

    Which... I dunno. It takes a deft hand to pull something like that off, and I'm not sure the game fully succeeds in doing it. I don't need a "Happily Ever After" ending. It can be a totally horrifying ending, it just has to be satisfying. But it's hard to pull off something like this that doesn't come off as "Here's your ending. They all lived. Fuck you. The end.". It sounds like I forced your hand into writing something you didn't want to.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    One of the themes of the ending that they mentioned a few times in the game was:
    This is a "good" ending, right? With "good" being in that kind of sarcastic, debatable sense. You saved everybody in the game and stopped the outbreak and 6 billion genocide that you know about. You murdered unsuspecting versions of yourselves to do it and now there's an unknown 8 billion genocide that could happen. This is "good"... yeah? VLR suggested this as well with Tenmyouji's end speech of "Going back in time and stopping the outbreak, yeah great, fuck my life with Quark though I guess".

    Which... I dunno. It takes a deft hand to pull something like that off, and I'm not sure the game fully succeeds in doing it. I don't need a "Happily Ever After" ending. It can be a totally horrifying ending, it just has to be satisfying. But it's hard to pull off something like this that doesn't come off as "Here's your ending. They all lived. Fuck you. The end.". It sounds like I forced your hand into writing something you didn't want to.
    I mean, part of the ending is that, but part of it is more hopeful, largely in C-team's epilogue files. The events of the game have led to a life the team is satisfied with, and they are working to stop the threat Brother couldn't or wouldn't stop directly. Taken in combination with Tenmyouji's sentiment, I get a vibe of "we have a duty to find the best possible outcome, but we can't forget that the other histories are just as real and valid". Which is a big reason why the team angrily rejects Delta's assertion that they shouldn't be mad at him for the horrors he committed in histories that "no longer exist".

    edit:

    Re: Kyle and ?
    Yeah, I can't see where Kyle fits into ZTD. I mean, unless it turns out that Kyle became Sean or something, or that Kyle's consciousness is part of ZTD's user interface ("?'s body"), which allows us to take part int he game and make the decisions that allow a different outcome to happen.

    I'm sure someone will ask these questions in the FAQ, but it really would've been nice to have even one word spoken about it in the game itself.

    Enlong on
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    cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Bears The Name FreedomRegistered User regular
    I tell you what though I'm looking forward to the inevitable Uchikoshi ZTD Q&A

    Q: ???
    A: Life is... simply unfair.

    wVEsyIc.png
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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Q: So why did [X, Y, and Z] happen?
    A: Zero's motives are... complex.

    Enlong on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Enlong wrote: »
    Jars wrote: »
    nope, I remember that pretty well.
    ? says he is kyle, akane says he is not because kyle went back to the past to save the world

    Wait, but
    how could he have gone to DCOM in the first place? Like, how old is Kyle? Wasn't he born on Rhizome-9? At the very least, I remember one D-team ending in which Sigma laments that Kyle, Luna, Lagomorph, and all the others won't be born, because he's about to die.

    I think some of the asshole choices, especially the showers, make some reference to ?'s possible presence and influence. But that's kind of weirdly ambiguous; it could be a reference to mind hacking as well.
    All of the asshole choices are a result of mind hacking - it isn't explicitly stated but it didn't seem very ambiguous.

    However, when they were happening, I absolutely assumed it was ? from ZE2.

    And then I was astonished when they threw in the twist they did.

    I know astonishment is a part of this series but this was astonishment at the fact that they decided to just ignore all the mystery in ZE2's climax and opted for something completely different. And then they don't even resolve or mention those plot points in ANY WAY.

    Unless ? was supposed to be Q's consciousness. ? knows everything. How? Maybe he was floating around somewhere, mind hacking everyone in ZE2. I have to think about that a lot more. But how could ?'s consciousness have gotten to 2078? And without being aware of his own self? Delta stated he cannot SHIFT. And even if it did, none of the SHIFTers can jump into OTHER consciousnesses, which is what it was implied ?, the "uncontrolled variable" was able to do.

    So I have to conclude that ? is me, and Q is Q, and they just decided to drop the Kyle and ? angle.

    The more I think about it, the more pissed off I am.

    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Yeah, that's a perfectly valid and understandable position to take, and I wish it had ended more satisfyingly.
    It's almost like it was written as if the last scene of VLR was Sigma's last scene.

    I think I'd be more outright happy with the ending if such was the case. But you can't just pretend that final scene didn't happen.

    Enlong on
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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    I don't even remember the details of VLR's final moments.
    All I remember is "Kyle" wakes up, asks a lot of questions, everybody has a varient dialog saying "Wait a sec, you're not any version of Sigma, who the heck are you and why do you know this stuff?", Kyle says "I dunno", and... that was it.

    The fact that I can't remember much of it probably speaks to how important it was, and the fact that ZTD doesn't even bother mentioning it probably reinforces that.

    The whole Mars testing site was the clear sequel hook. Kyle felt less like a hook and more like a half drilled screw hole that might have had plans to hold something but was abandoned. Either way I can't say I give a hoot about it.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    I'm currently in the middle of what I'm assuming is the true ending route, so maybe it gets explained later on, but something that was recently revealed really bothers me
    So Delta / Zero has been there, like, the entire time? Why the hell has no ever acknowledged him? I get that they think he's blind and deaf and whatnot, but him not being mentioned a single time by the other characters is "no ever mentions Sigma's bionic eye in VLR" levels of stupid.

    Add me on Switch: 7795-5541-4699
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    P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Maz- wrote: »
    I'm currently in the middle of what I'm assuming is the true ending route, so maybe it gets explained later on, but something that was recently revealed really bothers me
    So Delta / Zero has been there, like, the entire time? Why the hell has no ever acknowledged him? I get that they think he's blind and deaf and whatnot, but him not being mentioned a single time by the other characters is "no ever mentions Sigma's bionic eye in VLR" levels of stupid.
    they were trying to recapture the magic of 999's POV 'twist' but 999's POV twist worked because it didn't really change anything

    P10 on
    Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Maz- wrote: »
    I'm currently in the middle of what I'm assuming is the true ending route, so maybe it gets explained later on, but something that was recently revealed really bothers me
    So Delta / Zero has been there, like, the entire time? Why the hell has no ever acknowledged him? I get that they think he's blind and deaf and whatnot, but him not being mentioned a single time by the other characters is "no ever mentions Sigma's bionic eye in VLR" levels of stupid.
    i think it's less silly than the sigma's eye thing. Largely because I get the vibe that Eric and Mira are the kind of people who would completely disregard Q in this situation, as they're led to believe he cannot aid in the puzzles or make the decisions, and is also beneath suspicion for things like unknown murders. It's not stupidity so much as callousness.

    Also, there are one or two moments where he is acknowledged, but hidden. Such as Sean "talking to Gab", when he's actually turned towards Q/Delta. (Hence why he called Gab "old man"), or the bit where one team, upon learning that Q team was executed, thinks it's especially horrible, since Q couldn't understand what was happening. We thought they meant it was because Q is an innocent kid who doesn't understand this kind of death game, but it was actually because they know Q to be a blind deaf old man.

    On the other hand, it's still a little silly that nobody refers to Sean by name until the reveal.

    Enlong on
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    DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    ending discussion
    To me it feels like Uchikoshi had to work with a pretty limited budget and simply didn't have the money to handle all the remaining plot hooks that were out there, and decided to focus on tying up the main plot. I'm glad that we got the game and I'm happy to see resolution there and I think the Q&A will be pretty informative about the things that fell to the wayside.

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    agoajagoaj Top Tier One FearRegistered User regular
    Maz- wrote: »
    I'm currently in the middle of what I'm assuming is the true ending route, so maybe it gets explained later on, but something that was recently revealed really bothers me
    So Delta / Zero has been there, like, the entire time? Why the hell has no ever acknowledged him? I get that they think he's blind and deaf and whatnot, but him not being mentioned a single time by the other characters is "no ever mentions Sigma's bionic eye in VLR" levels of stupid.
    They did acknowledge him. There were four body puddles in Q's acid room, his shadow and parts of his chair show up in cutscenes,whenever the characters talk about/to him they usually cut to a shot of gab. Eric says, "like the old man in the wheelchair", but at the time we assume he's referring to some thought experiment.

    ujav5b9gwj1s.png
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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Question about the ending
    I've guessed in the past that the decisions in the game could be mind hacking. However, one has to consider the timeline where Q team is executed. There are still decisions on that route that aren't the effect of random chance, right? Stuff like Diana deciding whether to shoot, or whether to teleport

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Enlong wrote: »
    Maz- wrote: »
    I'm currently in the middle of what I'm assuming is the true ending route, so maybe it gets explained later on, but something that was recently revealed really bothers me
    So Delta / Zero has been there, like, the entire time? Why the hell has no ever acknowledged him? I get that they think he's blind and deaf and whatnot, but him not being mentioned a single time by the other characters is "no ever mentions Sigma's bionic eye in VLR" levels of stupid.
    i think it's less silly than the sigma's eye thing. Largely because I get the vibe that Eric and Mira are the kind of people who would completely disregard Q in this situation, as they're led to believe he cannot aid in the puzzles or make the decisions, and is also beneath suspicion for things like unknown murders. It's not stupidity so much as callousness.

    On the other hand, it's still a little silly that nobody refers to Sean by name until the reveal.
    What sort of gets me about the Sean reveal is I actually noticed something was screwy during the "Who killed Mira" input. If you type Q he says "That's clearly impossible!". Later when you know the name Sean and put that in, he says "I knew it was you". And at the time... I assumed the first response was a bug. Which I guess says something about game quality in general today.

    As for the whole Q reveal, this might be a case of replaying the game again and seeing just how many times they mention or allude to him that you just dismiss as something else. I remember a few instances of an extra gunshot during execution scenes, or somebody does say "old man" but then the camera shifts to Gab. VLR did the same "trick". Phi calls Sigma an old man quite a few times, but it's easy to dismiss as her being a snarky brat.

    Honestly, the whole Q twist didn't do much of anything for me. I didn't think it was bad or that it came out of complete nowhere. But it also felt like a super wacky twist for the sake of a super wacky twist. It in no way bowled me over and exploded my mind like the big twists of 999 or VLR. It was just... oh this is a thing? Uh... okie dokie.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    I don't even remember the details of VLR's final moments.
    All I remember is "Kyle" wakes up, asks a lot of questions, everybody has a varient dialog saying "Wait a sec, you're not any version of Sigma, who the heck are you and why do you know this stuff?", Kyle says "I dunno", and... that was it.

    The fact that I can't remember much of it probably speaks to how important it was, and the fact that ZTD doesn't even bother mentioning it probably reinforces that.

    The whole Mars testing site was the clear sequel hook. Kyle felt less like a hook and more like a half drilled screw hole that might have had plans to hold something but was abandoned. Either way I can't say I give a hoot about it.

    that's pretty subjective because I remember it the most out of everything from VLR

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    Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    agoaj wrote: »
    Maz- wrote: »
    I'm currently in the middle of what I'm assuming is the true ending route, so maybe it gets explained later on, but something that was recently revealed really bothers me
    So Delta / Zero has been there, like, the entire time? Why the hell has no ever acknowledged him? I get that they think he's blind and deaf and whatnot, but him not being mentioned a single time by the other characters is "no ever mentions Sigma's bionic eye in VLR" levels of stupid.
    They did acknowledge him. There were four body puddles in Q's acid room, his shadow and parts of his chair show up in cutscenes,whenever the characters talk about/to him they usually cut to a shot of gab. Eric says, "like the old man in the wheelchair", but at the time we assume he's referring to some thought experiment.
    Ah, the four puddles are a good point, I didn't notice that. That's still not a case of the characters acknowledging him, though, which is my main issue.

    I know that Eric talks about "the old man in the wheelchair" once, but I think he was specifically talking about their time at the Dcom facility at that point. I'll have to watch that scene again.

    Maz- on
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    firewaterwordfirewaterword Satchitananda Pais Vasco to San FranciscoRegistered User regular
    End game flow questions...
    What happens if Carlos betrays Junpei initially?

    Also, I wonder if it's possible to start a new game and, knowing all the codes, open the force quit box right away. I assume not?

    Lokah Samastah Sukhino Bhavantu
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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Jars wrote: »
    I don't even remember the details of VLR's final moments.
    All I remember is "Kyle" wakes up, asks a lot of questions, everybody has a varient dialog saying "Wait a sec, you're not any version of Sigma, who the heck are you and why do you know this stuff?", Kyle says "I dunno", and... that was it.

    The fact that I can't remember much of it probably speaks to how important it was, and the fact that ZTD doesn't even bother mentioning it probably reinforces that.

    The whole Mars testing site was the clear sequel hook. Kyle felt less like a hook and more like a half drilled screw hole that might have had plans to hold something but was abandoned. Either way I can't say I give a hoot about it.

    that's pretty subjective because I remember it the most out of everything from VLR

    Sorry, didn't mean to imply it wasn't.
    Either way for me personally, the big takeaway from VLR's ending was the brew-ha that went down at the testing site. Everything with Kyle felt... less defined as a hook.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    Uh..the game just kinda ended. Am I missing something or is
    Delta throwing the gun to Carlos really the final scene of the game?

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Maz- wrote: »
    Uh..the game just kinda ended. Am I missing something or is
    Delta throwing the gun to Carlos really the final scene of the game?

    Yes, but there are also some new pages added to the Files menu acting as an epilogue.

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    Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Enlong wrote: »
    Maz- wrote: »
    Uh..the game just kinda ended. Am I missing something or is
    Delta throwing the gun to Carlos really the final scene of the game?

    Yes, but there are also some new pages added to the Files menu acting as an epilogue.

    Ah, okay.
    Even after having read those..the ending still feels kinda unsatisfying. More like another sequel hook.

    Some stuff from VLR is never mentioned at all, like what happened to Clover and Alice.

    Maz- on
    Add me on Switch: 7795-5541-4699
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    VyolynceVyolynce Registered User regular
    Re: VLR participants and ZTD
    After ZTD, is there any need for Clover, Alice, and Phi to be put into cryosleep and sent to the future? That future isn't going to happen, ideally.

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Vyolynce wrote: »
    Re: VLR participants and ZTD
    After ZTD, is there any need for Clover, Alice, and Phi to be put into cryosleep and sent to the future? That future isn't going to happen, ideally.
    nope. With the outbreak not happening, the AB project doesn't need to happen, and Phi doesn't need to be quarantined.

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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    I don't even remember the details of VLR's final moments.
    All I remember is "Kyle" wakes up, asks a lot of questions, everybody has a varient dialog saying "Wait a sec, you're not any version of Sigma, who the heck are you and why do you know this stuff?", Kyle says "I dunno", and... that was it.

    The fact that I can't remember much of it probably speaks to how important it was, and the fact that ZTD doesn't even bother mentioning it probably reinforces that.

    The whole Mars testing site was the clear sequel hook. Kyle felt less like a hook and more like a half drilled screw hole that might have had plans to hold something but was abandoned. Either way I can't say I give a hoot about it.

    I could argue the exact opposite as, to me,
    Figuring out the mystery of "Kyle" was the one thing I was interested in learning from the sequel.

    But beyond your and my personal biases, at the end of ZE2, Akane explicitly states that you are the ONLY reason the stable (shitty) time loop can be broken, because of what you are able to do as an uncontrolled variable.

    So to drop that is totally inexcusable.

    The ONLY thing I can think is if (major ending spoilers)
    if Delta is somehow ?, but that would contradict things we are explicitly told over the course of ZE3.

    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    I mean,
    i still was a factor. Everyone's shifting abilities only go so far, leading to the stranded pair and outbreak endings. The final ending leads out from the force quit boxes opening, which uses info nobody in the cast would have at the time because nobody shifted there. Kind of like the coffin code or bomb codes from previous games. So, if that was meant to be the reason I was needed, I can see that.

    Still should've acknowledged that if that is the case, or said what the hell Kyle was.

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    P10P10 An Idiot With Low IQ Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Enlong wrote: »
    I mean,
    i still was a factor. Everyone's shifting abilities only go so far, leading to the stranded pair and outbreak endings. The final ending leads out from the force quit boxes opening, which uses info nobody in the cast would have at the time because nobody shifted there. Kind of like the coffin code or bomb codes from previous games. So, if that was meant to be the reason I was needed, I can see that.

    Still should've acknowledged that if that is the case, or said what the hell Kyle was.
    huh?
    ending spoilers
    all the shifters did shift into the force quit box route. i don't remember if you explicitly see the shift in or which fragment they would have been coming from (door of truth, I guess?), but there's no way it makes sense otherwise

    P10 on
    Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    P10 wrote: »
    Enlong wrote: »
    I mean,
    i still was a factor. Everyone's shifting abilities only go so far, leading to the stranded pair and outbreak endings. The final ending leads out from the force quit boxes opening, which uses info nobody in the cast would have at the time because nobody shifted there. Kind of like the coffin code or bomb codes from previous games. So, if that was meant to be the reason I was needed, I can see that.

    Still should've acknowledged that if that is the case, or said what the hell Kyle was.
    huh?
    ending spoilers
    all the shifters did shift into the force quit box route. i don't remember if you explicitly see the shift in or which fragment they would have been coming from, but there's no way it makes sense otherwise
    didnt Akane clarify that that particular event was somewhat distinct from shifting? Rather than one consciousness swapping over from antler timeline, they were downloading memories from all the branches on the spot, from the morphogenetic field. Less what Sigma did in VLR, and more what young Akane did in 999 to defeat sudoku.

    For example, Carlos would have memories of killing himself, killing Akane, and replacing the one who killed Akane.

    Also, they recover the memory of the coin toss, which nobody retained for most of the game.

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    HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    Maz- wrote: »
    agoaj wrote: »
    Maz- wrote: »
    I'm currently in the middle of what I'm assuming is the true ending route, so maybe it gets explained later on, but something that was recently revealed really bothers me
    So Delta / Zero has been there, like, the entire time? Why the hell has no ever acknowledged him? I get that they think he's blind and deaf and whatnot, but him not being mentioned a single time by the other characters is "no ever mentions Sigma's bionic eye in VLR" levels of stupid.
    They did acknowledge him. There were four body puddles in Q's acid room, his shadow and parts of his chair show up in cutscenes,whenever the characters talk about/to him they usually cut to a shot of gab. Eric says, "like the old man in the wheelchair", but at the time we assume he's referring to some thought experiment.
    Ah, the four puddles are a good point, I didn't notice that. That's still not a case of the characters acknowledging him, though, which is my main issue.

    I know that Eric talks about "the old man in the wheelchair" once, but I think he was specifically talking about their time at the Dcom facility at that point. I'll have to watch that scene again.

    More foreshadowing/ending spoilers about Q:
    I think that in the first scene with Q-Team (prior to the vote), Sean asks what the DCom project was. Eric & Mira answer that there were three teams at Dcom: C-Team, D-Team, and Q-Team. They might even say that each team had three people, though I'm not sure about that. Given that C-team and D-team seemed to be named after Carlos and Diana, it should seem strange that Q/Sean wasn't at Dcom, and yet the team seemed to be named after him.

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    ZythonZython Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    So beat ZTD:
    Most of my questions from VLR were answered. Although not explicitly stated, my guess is that ? from VLR is Carlos. But that still doesn't answer where the fuck Kyle is. My other gripe is that the climax of this game was weaker than the climaxes of the previous 2 games.

    Edit: Also, weren't Clover and Alice supposed to somehow go back in time? Maybe they used the transporter?

    Zython on
    Switch: SW-3245-5421-8042 | 3DS Friend Code: 4854-6465-0299 | PSN: Zaithon
    Steam: pazython
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    WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    Regarding Q
    If you replay through the Q-Team segments with the notion that Delta is there, you can definitely make out a bunch of times where they are talking explicitly too/about him. Am I the only person who thought the twist was hilarious/brilliant and pretty much perfectly in line with ZE's general silliness level? It followed very naturally from the twists in 999 and VLR in the sense of taking things to the next level up as far as what isn't shown to you. It clearly wasn't an afterthought either: the whole game is built around Delta's presence.

    Also, I mentioned this to my friend and she told me I should tweet it
    If you think about it, the whole plot is just a super convoluted version of the Parent Trap

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    WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    Enlong wrote: »
    P10 wrote: »
    Enlong wrote: »
    I mean,
    i still was a factor. Everyone's shifting abilities only go so far, leading to the stranded pair and outbreak endings. The final ending leads out from the force quit boxes opening, which uses info nobody in the cast would have at the time because nobody shifted there. Kind of like the coffin code or bomb codes from previous games. So, if that was meant to be the reason I was needed, I can see that.

    Still should've acknowledged that if that is the case, or said what the hell Kyle was.
    huh?
    ending spoilers
    all the shifters did shift into the force quit box route. i don't remember if you explicitly see the shift in or which fragment they would have been coming from, but there's no way it makes sense otherwise
    didnt Akane clarify that that particular event was somewhat distinct from shifting? Rather than one consciousness swapping over from antler timeline, they were downloading memories from all the branches on the spot, from the morphogenetic field. Less what Sigma did in VLR, and more what young Akane did in 999 to defeat sudoku.

    For example, Carlos would have memories of killing himself, killing Akane, and replacing the one who killed Akane.

    Also, they recover the memory of the coin toss, which nobody retained for most of the game.

    Yeah
    I definitely took it to be that information was just spilling over through the morphogenetic field, in the same manner that Akane can just remember some things from the future in perfect detail. All this shifting around and shit just sort of tore it wide open.

    Though, I suppose it's also worth pointing out that shifting into a prior point on the same timeline is actually functionally identical to just spontaneously remembering things from the future, especially if you die in the process of shifting (and therefore, cannot possibly end up shifting back).

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    The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Regarding Q
    If you replay through the Q-Team segments with the notion that Delta is there, you can definitely make out a bunch of times where they are talking explicitly too/about him. Am I the only person who thought the twist was hilarious/brilliant and pretty much perfectly in line with ZE's general silliness level? It followed very naturally from the twists in 999 and VLR in the sense of taking things to the next level up as far as what isn't shown to you. It clearly wasn't an afterthought either: the whole game is built around Delta's presence.

    Also, I mentioned this to my friend and she told me I should tweet it
    If you think about it, the whole plot is just a super convoluted version of the Parent Trap
    I dunno. The more I dwell on it, the less plussed I am on it. I don't hate it or think it's bad. It's just not as clever or mind blowing as the previous games twists. To sum it up, the twist is... they hid somebody behind the camera. Which they've certainly done before (Sigma does not look the way you think he looks, and 999's bottom narration is not simply general narration). They moved to a more cinematic telling style over traditional VN style... and literally just hid somebody behind the camera. To put it another way, the twist in both previous games not only shock the player, but shock the character as well (Sigma finally looks in a mirror for the first time, and Junpei realizes how he's getting these visions, and from whom). This twist is solely on the player, because everybody in the game knows exactly who Q is and that he was there the whole time.

    Like I said, I don't think it's as clever as the other games. It's just... there.

    There is one thing about the game that perturbs me, that nobody else has really mentioned yet. That there's alien technology from the 1800's, and other than using it a few times, is otherwise completely ignored.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Regarding Q
    If you replay through the Q-Team segments with the notion that Delta is there, you can definitely make out a bunch of times where they are talking explicitly too/about him. Am I the only person who thought the twist was hilarious/brilliant and pretty much perfectly in line with ZE's general silliness level? It followed very naturally from the twists in 999 and VLR in the sense of taking things to the next level up as far as what isn't shown to you. It clearly wasn't an afterthought either: the whole game is built around Delta's presence.

    Also, I mentioned this to my friend and she told me I should tweet it
    If you think about it, the whole plot is just a super convoluted version of the Parent Trap
    I dunno. The more I dwell on it, the less plussed I am on it. I don't hate it or think it's bad. It's just not as clever or mind blowing as the previous games twists. To sum it up, the twist is... they hid somebody behind the camera. Which they've certainly done before (Sigma does not look the way you think he looks, and 999's bottom narration is not simply general narration). They moved to a more cinematic telling style over traditional VN style... and literally just hid somebody behind the camera. To put it another way, the twist in both previous games not only shock the player, but shock the character as well (Sigma finally looks in a mirror for the first time, and Junpei realizes how he's getting these visions, and from whom). This twist is solely on the player, because everybody in the game knows exactly who Q is and that he was there the whole time.

    Like I said, I don't think it's as clever as the other games. It's just... there.

    There is one thing about the game that perturbs me, that nobody else has really mentioned yet. That there's alien technology from the 1800's, and other than using it a few times, is otherwise completely ignored.
    Though, they do have the characters be shocked at the same time we are, but for different reasons ("There's a 10th person!" vs "He stood up and talked and is murdering people!")

    The previous ones, especially 999's unrepeatable one, were better, though.

    And yeah, more speculation on interdimentional alien tech, please!
    Winky wrote: »
    Enlong wrote: »
    P10 wrote: »
    Enlong wrote: »
    I mean,
    i still was a factor. Everyone's shifting abilities only go so far, leading to the stranded pair and outbreak endings. The final ending leads out from the force quit boxes opening, which uses info nobody in the cast would have at the time because nobody shifted there. Kind of like the coffin code or bomb codes from previous games. So, if that was meant to be the reason I was needed, I can see that.

    Still should've acknowledged that if that is the case, or said what the hell Kyle was.
    huh?
    ending spoilers
    all the shifters did shift into the force quit box route. i don't remember if you explicitly see the shift in or which fragment they would have been coming from, but there's no way it makes sense otherwise
    didnt Akane clarify that that particular event was somewhat distinct from shifting? Rather than one consciousness swapping over from antler timeline, they were downloading memories from all the branches on the spot, from the morphogenetic field. Less what Sigma did in VLR, and more what young Akane did in 999 to defeat sudoku.

    For example, Carlos would have memories of killing himself, killing Akane, and replacing the one who killed Akane.

    Also, they recover the memory of the coin toss, which nobody retained for most of the game.

    Yeah
    I definitely took it to be that information was just spilling over through the morphogenetic field, in the same manner that Akane can just remember some things from the future in perfect detail. All this shifting around and shit just sort of tore it wide open.

    Though, I suppose it's also worth pointing out that shifting into a prior point on the same timeline is actually functionally identical to just spontaneously remembering things from the future, especially if you die in the process of shifting (and therefore, cannot possibly end up shifting back).
    True, though they also know things they couldn't know at all, such as the coin toss event. They were given amnesia of that event, and never shifted back there (or remembered that that event was a thing), until right at the end.

    Could be info spilling through, or it could be that they know because I know.

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    WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    Okay, had a lot of thoughts regarding "?" that I'm not sure if anyone else pointed out already
    Rewatching the VLR secret ending; Kyle is sent back to December 25th, and Akane says his mission begins on Christmas and ends on New Year's Eve, 2028. ZTD starts on New Year's Eve, and carries over to New Year's Day. Which means Kyle is explicitly not there during the time when the game happens, but is actually there for the 5 days that the Decision Game participants are unconscious.

    Consider the other things that we know about Kyle: he was born in an artificial womb and Sigma raised him as his own son. When Kyle asked for a mother, Sigma made a robot of Diana. We also know that Kyle's purpose as a "spare" was not his real purpose (his real purpose was to go back in time). What if Kyle is not actually a direct clone of Sigma at all, but is instead a hybrid of Diana and Sigma?

    We know that Akane went to the Free the Soul meeting on April 12th that Delta told her to go to (since she's wearing the robes when she wakes up Sigma on April 13th), then she immediately takes him to Rhizome 9...What if VLR Akane ended up explicitly working with Delta to create the events of ZTD after meeting with him and finding out what his overall plan was (hiding her plans even from Sigma)? Then Kyle went back into Delta's body from the 25th-31st in order to set up the events of ZTD.

    Also also, if you're interested here's a collection reddit's been trying to make of all the foreshadowing in the game for the major twists: https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroEscape/comments/4qsmvu/ztd_spoilerslets_find_all_of_the_foreshadowing/

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    EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Winky wrote: »
    Okay, had a lot of thoughts regarding "?" that I'm not sure if anyone else pointed out already
    Rewatching the VLR secret ending; Kyle is sent back to December 25th, and Akane says his mission begins on Christmas and ends on New Year's Eve, 2028. ZTD starts on New Year's Eve, and carries over to New Year's Day. Which means Kyle is explicitly not there during the time when the game happens, but is actually there for the 5 days that the Decision Game participants are unconscious.

    Consider the other things that we know about Kyle: he was born in an artificial womb and Sigma raised him as his own son. When Kyle asked for a mother, Sigma made a robot of Diana. We also know that Kyle's purpose as a "spare" was not his real purpose (his real purpose was to go back in time). What if Kyle is not actually a direct clone of Sigma at all, but is instead a hybrid of Diana and Sigma?

    We know that Akane went to the Free the Soul meeting on April 12th that Delta told her to go to (since she's wearing the robes when she wakes up Sigma on April 13th), then she immediately takes him to Rhizome 9...What if VLR Akane ended up explicitly working with Delta to create the events of ZTD after meeting with him and finding out what his overall plan was (hiding her plans even from Sigma)? Then Kyle went back into Delta's body from the 25th-31st in order to set up the events of ZTD.

    Also also, if you're interested here's a collection reddit's been trying to make of all the foreshadowing in the game for the major twists: https://www.reddit.com/r/ZeroEscape/comments/4qsmvu/ztd_spoilerslets_find_all_of_the_foreshadowing/
    well, that would certainly be something I'd expect from VLR Akane, she of the million-mental-year-old super-pragmatism.

    If ? is meant to be sitting behind Delta's shoulder, so to speak (with the various moments when Delta's viewpoint is the player's), it might explain why VLR Akane said that Kyle shifted to ?'s body, "in a manner of speaking".

    Another thought. If ?'s viewpoint is Q's (aside from the Q team executed timeline, of course), if makes sense for that to be the case even outside of Q-team's scenes. You're seeing what he sees via his camera-glasses. Which is why we don't get to see what D-team does behind the counter after opening the force quit box. Delta's cameras aren't pointed there.

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    WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    This is a fantastic graph:
    tumblr_o9lieoILlY1rx3a95o4_r2_1280.png

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    I don't remember the alice one

    I do remember both of phi's

    I am mentally substituting given for dropped and it amuses me

    Jars on
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    WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    Jars wrote: »
    I am mentally substituting given for dropped and it amuses me

    It's perfect because Akane gives none.

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