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    SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    delroland wrote: »
    In no other game can all your effort be flushed down the toilet by another player. The whole "you can lose everything, forever" quasi-realism aspect of the game very much makes EVE a niche game.

    Mortal Online, Darkfall, Ultima Online, Shadowbane. I'm sure there are a few others. All of these games had mechanism which would allow a cautious player to avoid most of the dangers or be prepared for the loss of their "loot".

    Eve Online specifically has a robust ecomony that keeps prices reasonable for average ships, weapons, and modules. As long as you budget properly and don't take unreasonable risks (aka, only fly what you can afford to lose), than you will never, ever loose everything forever. I bought 60 assault frigs and enough modules to outfit them all for basic tackling in pvp and still had isk leftover from my level 4 mission running. It would take dozens of fleet battles to lose that many frigs and as long as I update my clone and purchase a new one each time I get podded (upkeep and repairs in other games), I won't lose any skill training either. The tutorial goes over this. There are player run corps in game that teach this shit. It's a harsh game, but that does not make it niche.

    There are players that have amassed fortunes through industry and mercantilism and never have to leave a station... ever. They use contracts with escrow/collateral to minimize losses to ship their goods around. This creates a service other players can provide and earn isk from, further strengthening the economy. Mission runners and miners are pretty damned safe. Jatcan mining is risk. You take the risk of having your can flipped and all it takes is half a second to glance at the overview to see if your can has been flipped. If it goes from white to yellow (if I recall correctly), it's been flipped and you should accept your loss and move on.

    I think you just got your shit stolen, blown up, and your clone podded and podded again and again without backing up your skills.
    Why is it that you guys are always quick to defend the dickhead mentality that goes along with EVE as "what makes it fun" then get your panties all in a twist when someone suggests that most people don't enjoy that sort of thing? "If you don't like it, you can get out! But it's not a niche! STFU!" is a pretty stupid argument.
    Eve has higher subscription numbers than most mainstream mmo's out there. Disregarding asian MMO's and WoW, it is the most popular MMO. Doesn't sound like a niche game to me.

    SkyCaptain on
    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    WoW blows the curve. It should not be included in any comparisons of anything, because if you do you won't get an accurate or balanced picture of what is going on with everyone else.

    Eve is pretty mainstream. The parts of the game that are not mainstream (the PvP) are optional activities. By far, most players who subscribe to Eve never enter null-sec, and they get along just fine.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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    SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    WoW blows the curve. It should not be included in any comparisons of anything, because if you do you won't get an accurate or balanced picture of what is going on with everyone else.

    Eve is pretty mainstream. The parts of the game that are not mainstream (the PvP) are optional activities. By far, most players who subscribe to Eve never enter null-sec, and they get along just fine.

    Yeah, that's why I typically disregard WoW in these types of debates. Although I guarentee someonewill come back and try to use WoW's numbers to bolster the 'Eve is a niche game' pointless argument. I've lost more ships in Eve due to my own stupidity and carelessness against NPC's than I have PC's and being ganked when I didn't want to lose my ship and goods.

    All it took was losing a Megathron, once (60 mil isk or more these days), to pound the maxim, "Only fly what you can afford to lose." into my thick skull.

    SkyCaptain on
    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
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    hailthefishhailthefish Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The harshness of EVE's pvp is what makes it fun for me. There's no point in spending ages training and grinding to get the cash and skills to go-fight-win if the win is meaningless because nobody loses anything. That's what makes fleet ops fun. Otherwise it's just spending three hours listening to some neckbeards scream in Teamspeak. It's fun because when we blow up the bad guys, they actually suffer a meaningful setback, it's not about the k/d, it's about inflicting lasting harm on the enemy, economically, numerically, strategically.

    hailthefish on
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    SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The harshness of EVE's pvp is what makes it fun for me. There's no point in spending ages training and grinding to get the cash and skills to go-fight-win if the win is meaningless because nobody loses anything. That's what makes fleet ops fun. Otherwise it's just spending three hours listening to some neckbeards scream in Teamspeak. It's fun because when we blow up the bad guys, they actually suffer a meaningful setback, it's not about the k/d, it's about inflicting lasting harm on the enemy, economically, numerically, strategically.

    Yup, that's why I played Eve. I'd love it if some company could create a fantasy mmo that mimicked the realism of Eve for territory control, resources, economy, and empire building. Without the silly geese that always fuck it up by whining about losing their equipment and shit.

    It'd be awesome to open up a server day one, right after a world apocalypse shattered all of civilization and the players are the ones that will pick up the pieces and rebuild ancient kingdoms. NPC's would be meatbags that could eventually be phased out in favor of a player created quest system and player created factions. Player created missions and factions in Eve would be cool too.

    SkyCaptain on
    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
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    Lady EriLady Eri Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I too would like an empire-building renaissance-like game. Wurm, but more polished and cohesive.

    Lady Eri on
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    Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Burgu wrote: »
    So I was in Merch way back in the day when they were first getting to 0.0 space and fending off pirates and such. After playing a few months, I got a new debit card and forgot to switch over my even account, leading the account to be banned.

    So it's been about 2 years, and I'm thinking about re-opening an account, at least for a trial run for these next few weeks. How do I get back involved with Merch?

    Check out the recruitment thread for instructions.

    Bliss 101 on
    MSL59.jpg
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    BeltaineBeltaine BOO BOO DOO DE DOORegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    SkyCaptain wrote: »
    The harshness of EVE's pvp is what makes it fun for me. There's no point in spending ages training and grinding to get the cash and skills to go-fight-win if the win is meaningless because nobody loses anything. That's what makes fleet ops fun. Otherwise it's just spending three hours listening to some neckbeards scream in Teamspeak. It's fun because when we blow up the bad guys, they actually suffer a meaningful setback, it's not about the k/d, it's about inflicting lasting harm on the enemy, economically, numerically, strategically.

    Yup, that's why I played Eve. I'd love it if some company could create a fantasy mmo that mimicked the realism of Eve for territory control, resources, economy, and empire building. Without the silly geese that always fuck it up by whining about losing their equipment and shit.

    It'd be awesome to open up a server day one, right after a world apocalypse shattered all of civilization and the players are the ones that will pick up the pieces and rebuild ancient kingdoms. NPC's would be meatbags that could eventually be phased out in favor of a player created quest system and player created factions. Player created missions and factions in Eve would be cool too.

    Shadowbane and/or Darkfall got close to this, didn't they?

    Beltaine on
    XdDBi4F.jpg
    PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
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    Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    delroland wrote: »
    I think the shocker is for people who live in high sec who go out to low sec or get wardec'ed or can flipped or something and ganked in their fancy mining barge or missioning ship that they spent all their isk on and which was their only way to make more isk.

    And then they stop playing, to which the vast majority of your responses would be, "Well, the game just wasn't for them." How does that not make it a niche game?
    In EVE's case, the fact that it's a niche game is a good thing (for CCP, that is). The last few years have seen a number of MMO's try to become competitive with WOW, and they've all failed in spectacular fashion. EVE doesn't even try to go that route. In pretty much every way, it's the opposite of WOW. Whether or not that's a good thing, in some sort of abstract sense, is all a matter of personal taste. But it's hard to fault CCP for the approach it's taken. They know they can't compete with WOW on its own terms and they know that the large majority of WOW's player-base has no interest in playing a .....unique.... game like EVE.

    But, yeah, EVE is a niche game in the MMO marketplace. But, these days, it seems like a lot of games qualify as niche games.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    If by "a lot" you mean "every game but WoW" then I think you need to examine your definitions.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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    Just Some DudeJust Some Dude Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    WoW is the McDonald's of video games.

    Just Some Dude on
    Cog in the machine Cog Herder
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    MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I really want to like EvE. The stakes of it all remind me of EQ, which I used to enjoy back in the day. I don't think I have the time, or rather that I want to use time that I do have, to become anything beyond a casual player.

    And what the hell does a casual player do in this game really?

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    WoW is the McDonald's of video games.

    It is, really; however, that doesn't change the fact that it is in a unique position in the market that demolishes metrics if WoW is included in them. If you remove WoW from the charts, EvE is perhaps the largest Western MMO on the market, and it has a population that is growing.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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    Just Some DudeJust Some Dude Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Malkor wrote: »
    I really want to like EvE. The stakes of it all remind me of EQ, which I used to enjoy back in the day. I don't think I have the time, or rather that I want to use time that I do have, to become anything beyond a casual player.

    And what the hell does a casual player do in this game really?

    In empire they typically run missions.

    In 0.0 they either mine, rat/plex, or form up little gangs and fly around and look for dudes to shoot. Despite the outward learning curve, eve is *very* casual friendly for most players, at least in an amount of time needed to do stuff kinda way.
    WoW is the McDonald's of video games.

    It is, really; however, that doesn't change the fact that it is in a unique position in the market that demolishes metrics if WoW is included in them. If you remove WoW from the charts, EvE is perhaps the largest Western MMO on the market, and it has a population that is growing.

    Eve is also just about the only successful sci-fi game, so it pretty much gets everybody who doesn't like fantasy settings by default.

    Just Some Dude on
    Cog in the machine Cog Herder
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    Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    If by "a lot" you mean "every game but WoW" then I think you need to examine your definitions.
    There have been some attempts recently to release games that were aimed at more of a general demographic (WAR and AoC come to mind). These were games looking to pick up maybe a million+ players from the casual to the hardcorz. They didn't have much luck because they found it's tough to be all things to all people, especially with the 800 pound gorilla that is WOW.

    I think CCP realizes that it can't really compete on that playing field, which is a smart move on their part. They've built up a good customer-base by creating a game that is attractive to a certain segment of the MMO player-base. I think a lot of smaller games are taking that approach and have found you can have a succesful game with 100-200K subscribers.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

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    Evil DaveEvil Dave Loot Whore Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    So...

    Was clearing out a Sanctum when I scanned down a shitty complex ~6 jumps away (Guristas Troop Reinvigoration Camp, a complex that doesn't actually have an escalation). Still, I came very close to abandoning the Sanctum to just go clear it out for the small chance at a ~100m mod. There's nothing special about Sanctums after all, right?

    But I decided to finish it out, and then suddenly there was a DG rat spawn with a 13m bounty. When it died I got tags, ammo, and a pop-up.

    The Maze.
    20100919221115.jpg

    So my Sanctum escalated into a 10/10 complex that ended with 1b worth of modules split between me and a helpful corp mate.

    Good Sanctum, would run again.

    Evil Dave on
    Demerdar wrote: »
    Imagine 60 thousand people screaming at an egg.
    PAsig.jpg
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    BaidolBaidol I will hold him off Escape while you canRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The Gurista 6/10 is awesome. It is quick to run and the loot table prints isk like mad. The fact that it doesn't escalate is a good thing.

    Baidol on
    Steam Overwatch: Baidol#1957
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    Evil DaveEvil Dave Loot Whore Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    It's quick to run, sure, but there's fuck all to be had for bounties as it's a mess of frigates/cruisers and a grand total of 8x 500k BS. Also, out of the 6 times I've run it I've had nothing but the effects drop.

    As far as I'm concerned, it's fucking terrible.

    In other news, I had a drone plex escalate last night. I'm not even sure I want that to happen... (Radiance > Molting Season) Alt account in an Iteron MKIII making it worthwhile, I hope. Wiki entry on the escalation has everything from "need BS + 2 logistics" to "I soloed it in a Domi" so I've not a clue what's going on there.

    Edit: Possible excuse to replace my Zealot?

    Evil Dave on
    Demerdar wrote: »
    Imagine 60 thousand people screaming at an egg.
    PAsig.jpg
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    If by "a lot" you mean "every game but WoW" then I think you need to examine your definitions.
    There have been some attempts recently to release games that were aimed at more of a general demographic (WAR and AoC come to mind). These were games looking to pick up maybe a million+ players from the casual to the hardcorz. They didn't have much luck because they found it's tough to be all things to all people, especially with the 800 pound gorilla that is WOW.

    I think CCP realizes that it can't really compete on that playing field, which is a smart move on their part. They've built up a good customer-base by creating a game that is attractive to a certain segment of the MMO player-base. I think a lot of smaller games are taking that approach and have found you can have a succesful game with 100-200K subscribers.

    We are still comparing things to WoW. 1mil subscriptions is not a realistic target for anyone who is not Blizzard. Bioware perhaps, time will tell.

    ANYONE else, and 300k subscriptions is about right, and still quite successful.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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    ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    And that's the thing all of these money gargling publishers really need to have hammered into their thick skull. They cannot make another WoW, there will be only one WoW and it is a statistic that is just not competeable against. If your MMO gets up to a steady 200k-300k subscribers you're doing VERY good, but haven't there been an MMO or two in the past that got shut down even then because it wasn't holding multitudes of millions of subs?

    One could compare it to EVE honestly money-wise, everyone wants a license to print free money, but the thing is you can't shoot too big too soon. If I were to take a bunch of crap from one place to another in my dinky Badger II, wanna know what would happen? I'd be blown up, all my spacely goods imploded into space dust while I wake up in a vat of warm jelly.

    Okay maybe not a perfect anology, but still.

    Arthil on
    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: Arthil
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    ukiyo eukiyo e Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Whoever designed The Maze is a cruel, cruel person.

    ukiyo e on
    1EAFQ.gif
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    Evil DaveEvil Dave Loot Whore Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    ukiyo e wrote: »
    Whoever designed The Maze is a cruel, cruel person.

    Except that the path through it is always the same, and is posted on the wiki.

    Pro tip: Everything is on the wiki.

    Evil Dave on
    Demerdar wrote: »
    Imagine 60 thousand people screaming at an egg.
    PAsig.jpg
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    hailthefishhailthefish Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    And if whatever you're looking for's not on EVElopedia, it's on the GoonWiki. I have both of them in my bookmarks in the ingame browser and on my bookmark bar in Chrome.

    hailthefish on
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    DarmakDarmak RAGE vympyvvhyc vyctyvyRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Beltaine wrote: »
    SkyCaptain wrote: »
    The harshness of EVE's pvp is what makes it fun for me. There's no point in spending ages training and grinding to get the cash and skills to go-fight-win if the win is meaningless because nobody loses anything. That's what makes fleet ops fun. Otherwise it's just spending three hours listening to some neckbeards scream in Teamspeak. It's fun because when we blow up the bad guys, they actually suffer a meaningful setback, it's not about the k/d, it's about inflicting lasting harm on the enemy, economically, numerically, strategically.

    Yup, that's why I played Eve. I'd love it if some company could create a fantasy mmo that mimicked the realism of Eve for territory control, resources, economy, and empire building. Without the silly geese that always fuck it up by whining about losing their equipment and shit.

    It'd be awesome to open up a server day one, right after a world apocalypse shattered all of civilization and the players are the ones that will pick up the pieces and rebuild ancient kingdoms. NPC's would be meatbags that could eventually be phased out in favor of a player created quest system and player created factions. Player created missions and factions in Eve would be cool too.

    Shadowbane and/or Darkfall got close to this, didn't they?

    They were talking about a game that was fun. :P

    Darmak on
    JtgVX0H.png
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    YorkerYorker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I'm thinking about trying this out, not so much for the PvP stuff (though it sounds cool) but more the financial aspect of the game, manufacturing, mining and all that.

    So I was wondering, anyone have a trial for me?

    Yorker on
    76561198037322631.png
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    hailthefishhailthefish Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    PM me your email address and I'll hook you up.

    hailthefish on
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    YorkerYorker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    PM me your email address and I'll hook you up.

    Just Some Dude hooked me up, but thanks for the offer.

    I'm really liking this game, finished the military tutorial and I'm working on the others.

    I'm pretty poor though, and that just won't do at all.

    So, what do i do in order to become filthy rich?

    Yorker on
    76561198037322631.png
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    hailthefishhailthefish Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The easiest way is to beg for isk or, if you have RL cash, buy some timecards. Other than that, ratting and missions are your best long term bet, though for a trial account, as boring as it is, you could probably get by with mining.

    hailthefish on
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    StorkStork Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The easiest way is to join MerchIndustrial, come out to our 0.0 space and get isk rained down upon your newbie wallet.

    Stork on
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    hailthefishhailthefish Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Yeah, pretty much. I had to turn off the wallet flashing. It was distracting me on ops.

    hailthefish on
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    Bliss 101Bliss 101 Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    If you feel like you want to learn the basics of ship fitting etc on your own, you can do one or more of the "advanced" tutorials and then the series of Sisters of Eve missions. IIRC you'll make a few initial millions that way, they're sort of fun to do, and by the time you're finished you'll have had time to learn the very basic core skills that allow you to do something in 0.0. Also you'll know whether you like mission running or not: you can have a mission running career in nullsec (Guristas missions in Venal) and apparently the money can be pretty good, but there's a lot of initial effort involved.

    Bliss 101 on
    MSL59.jpg
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    Lady EriLady Eri Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    ^^ yep

    Lady Eri on
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    SelnerSelner Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Malkor wrote: »
    I really want to like EvE. The stakes of it all remind me of EQ, which I used to enjoy back in the day. I don't think I have the time, or rather that I want to use time that I do have, to become anything beyond a casual player.

    And what the hell does a casual player do in this game really?

    I am a super casual player. I usually never have more then an hour or two to play, and don't even play every night.

    I'm currently printing isk via Planetary Interaction (80-90mil/week), and have got myself into a decently fitted Drake and can rat quite well. I can take on 3x BS spawns, which is nice.

    My PI setup requires clicking 30 extractors three times a day, and a once a week swing by on a hauler to pick everything up.

    Trying to figure out anoms and that kind of stuff now.

    Selner on
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    Evil DaveEvil Dave Loot Whore Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Selner wrote: »
    Malkor wrote: »
    I really want to like EvE. The stakes of it all remind me of EQ, which I used to enjoy back in the day. I don't think I have the time, or rather that I want to use time that I do have, to become anything beyond a casual player.

    And what the hell does a casual player do in this game really?

    I am a super casual player. I usually never have more then an hour or two to play, and don't even play every night.

    I'm currently printing isk via Planetary Interaction (80-90mil/week), and have got myself into a decently fitted Drake and can rat quite well. I can take on 3x BS spawns, which is nice.

    My PI setup requires clicking 30 extractors three times a day, and a once a week swing by on a hauler to pick everything up.

    Trying to figure out anoms and that kind of stuff now.

    'Progression' in EVE is rather irregular compared to most games. Was getting a friend of mine to join in, and his argument against starting at the time was that he had finals coming up and wouldn't be able to spend much time on it right away.
    "Perfect! You'll like the game a lot more if you don't play for the first month."
    "Wait, what?"

    Especially considering how free a lot of corp members are with loose change (i.e. anything under 50m) it's pretty easy to do what you'd want to in EVE without spending a lot of time logged in. If you can avoid being anxious about making the pre-reqs for flying something you'll appreciate the game more and 'casual' play is fine for that. At some point in the eventual future, you'll just suddenly realize you can fly heavy assault cruisers.

    Evil Dave on
    Demerdar wrote: »
    Imagine 60 thousand people screaming at an egg.
    PAsig.jpg
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    PeccaviPeccavi Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Selner wrote: »
    Malkor wrote: »
    I really want to like EvE. The stakes of it all remind me of EQ, which I used to enjoy back in the day. I don't think I have the time, or rather that I want to use time that I do have, to become anything beyond a casual player.

    And what the hell does a casual player do in this game really?

    I am a super casual player. I usually never have more then an hour or two to play, and don't even play every night.

    I'm currently printing isk via Planetary Interaction (80-90mil/week), and have got myself into a decently fitted Drake and can rat quite well. I can take on 3x BS spawns, which is nice.

    My PI setup requires clicking 30 extractors three times a day, and a once a week swing by on a hauler to pick everything up.

    Trying to figure out anoms and that kind of stuff now.

    As someone who hasn't played EVE since before PI, is it typical to be making that much off of it? I mean, that's enough to buy a plex (or it was before I quit).

    Peccavi on
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    Just Some DudeJust Some Dude Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Yeah, PI will basically set a price ceiling for a plex the same way datacores tended to before. Whatever amount of money you can make off almost totally passive income should be just enough to pay for the account, and not any more or people will just make more accounts.

    Presumably it will go down a bit in the future simply because an account that pays for itself is more useful than just the isk, but they should trend near each other.

    Just Some Dude on
    Cog in the machine Cog Herder
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    SelnerSelner Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Peccavi wrote: »
    As someone who hasn't played EVE since before PI, is it typical to be making that much off of it? I mean, that's enough to buy a plex (or it was before I quit).

    I think the amount I'm getting is "normal" for someone only running one acct, with five planets and Adv CCs.

    Some folks are using more accts, and have differing levels of CC. But I think Adv is pretty common for most folks.

    And it does appear that PI is slowly driving up the cost of PLEXs, as they are around 350m+ now, when I believe they were closer to 300m before.

    I could also be making more, but I've diversifed myself slightly. So I'm making three different things. If I only made one thing I'd make a bit more, but be at the whim of the market of that one thing crashing.

    Selner on
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    hailthefishhailthefish Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    If you buy your plex from good people rather than soulless pubbies, they're still around 300m, maybe 310m.

    I sort of lazily half-ass a couple planets with whatever the second level of control center is for coolant and random other stuff and it makes about a mil per week if I actually do stuff.

    hailthefish on
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    SkyCaptainSkyCaptain IndianaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I need to get back into Eve. I miss zooming around in my interceptor.

    SkyCaptain on
    The RPG Bestiary - Dangerous foes and legendary monsters for D&D 4th Edition
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    CogliostroCogliostro Marginal Opinions Spring, TXRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Man... so good to be back into EVE with a purpose.

    By the way.. just as an FYI, the Battlestar Galactica soundtrack needs to have its own playlist. The music is perfect for the game and the battle music fits like a glove.

    Cogliostro on
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