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Is Civilization Really a Good Thing?

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    FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I don't get your specific critique FCS. Could you elaborate a little?

    Most human diseases, IIRC, resulted in close proximity of humans to the animals that they kept and the waste they created. That is, it was kept livestock, not hunting dogs.

    The disease point might be reaching a bit, contamination rates were probably still way less, but interaction with animals and their byproducts was still pretty common in HG societies (wearing of fur, using fat, bone, etc.), enough that they weren't as disease-free as depicted in the OP.

    My main point is that the life expectancy of an early hunter-gatherer (who were also much less advanced than the HG societies we know of today) is significantly less than that of an early farmer. The farmer may live a shittier life, but in the end they're not dead.

    FirstComradeStalin on
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    ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Nought wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Oddly enough, this system is reappearing in an odd form... credit scores, anyone? Credit scores exist because formal ways to enforce debt collection are poor. And thus we see all the old problems - impossibility of appealing bad credit assigned by mistake, catch-22s in acquiring a good credit score, etc.

    Some international firms and a few Danish banks have been trying to implement credit scores in Denmark. Haven't really been very successful since Danish law have this weird thing about protecting the consumer rather then businesses.

    Unless Denmark is then forcing banks and credit-card businesses to lend regardless anyway, all Danes are going to get from that is higher credit rates or no access to credit at all :P

    Early human life was simply better on average than in authoritarian agricultural societies. ...

    I keep seeing this argument throughout the thread and I'm still entirely unconvinced of its validity. ...

    Linky link. Regardless of individual welfare, farmers can drive out hunter-gatherers by seizing more and more fertile land and outnumbering the h/gs. And so they do.

    ronya on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I don't get your specific critique FCS. Could you elaborate a little?

    Most human diseases, IIRC, resulted in close proximity of humans to the animals that they kept and the waste they created. That is, it was kept livestock, not hunting dogs.

    The disease point might be reaching a bit, contamination rates were probably still way less, but interaction with animals and their byproducts was still pretty common in HG societies (wearing of fur, using fat, bone, etc.), enough that they weren't as disease-free as depicted in the OP.

    My main point is that the life expectancy of an early hunter-gatherer (who were also much less advanced than the HG societies we know of today) is significantly less than that of an early farmer. The farmer may live a shittier life, but in the end they're not dead.

    I don't think it's a matter of fur/bone/fat being particularly disease-ridden. I could be wrong, but I believe it's mostly the animal waste that's the real issue.

    I'm also not convinced on the life expectancy bit that you bring up. A limited diet is almost necessarily going to fuck you up. IIRC there were some native american tribes that were totally fucked up when they converted to a mostly corn diet, and necessary proximity to waste (human AND animal) is going to do a lot of bad things.

    Loren Michael on
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    YarYar Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I think questioning whether or not civilization is bad gets pretty close, philosophically speaking, to questioning whether or not good things are actually bad. You kind of have to define "good," and, at least in an optimistic sense, the very idea of "civilization" is defined by many of the same ideals we use to talk about what is good.

    Yar on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Sort of silly to even bother wondering whether its a good thing, it was inevitable in the course of human development. We could, therefore like anything we can do, we did.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Belief in the relative "good" of civilization has a lot to do, I believe, with the value one places on human life. In terms of sheer numbers civilization has allowed for more human beings to be alive than would ever have been possible without it. The general state of their lives over its course may be debatable (though as many in this thread have pointed out, myself included, we would never have been alive without civilization). The point it really comes down to is do you think having more people is good y/n?

    Z0re on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Z0re wrote: »
    Belief in the relative "good" of civilization has a lot to do, I believe, with the value one places on human life. In terms of sheer numbers civilization has allowed for more human beings to be alive than would ever have been possible without it. The general state of their lives over its course may be debatable (though as many in this thread have pointed out, myself included, we would never have been alive without civilization). The point it really comes down to is do you think having more people is good y/n?

    The benefits of civilization go far beyond increased population.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Z0re wrote: »
    Belief in the relative "good" of civilization has a lot to do, I believe, with the value one places on human life. In terms of sheer numbers civilization has allowed for more human beings to be alive than would ever have been possible without it. The general state of their lives over its course may be debatable (though as many in this thread have pointed out, myself included, we would never have been alive without civilization). The point it really comes down to is do you think having more people is good y/n?

    The benefits of civilization go far beyond increased population.

    I agree with this wholeheartedly, I was merely observing what I saw as a difference in values between those who say civilization is a good and those who say its not.

    Z0re on
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    EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    As mentioned, 'good' is awfully hard to define here.

    I'm impressed with civilization. We've come up with some classy shit.

    And, hey, if you want to go back to the hunter gatherer bit, you can always try to integrate with the nomadic pastoralists that still remain in the Bakhtiari people.

    Of course, when someone gets too old or infirm to make the journey every year, they just sit down at the point where they can go no further and wait to die.

    Ego on
    Erik
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Ego wrote: »
    As mentioned, 'good' is awfully hard to define here.

    I'm impressed with civilization. We've come up with some classy shit.

    And, hey, if you want to go back to the hunter gatherer bit, you can always try to integrate with the nomadic pastoralists that still remain in the Bakhtiari people.

    Of course, when someone gets too old or infirm to make the journey every year, they just sit down at the point where they can go no further and wait to die.
    As opposed to our own society, where we usually spend the last few years getting foggy upstairs, gradually becoming physically and mentally incapable of taking care of ourselves, spending most of our time shuffling around a hospital/nursing home hallway or staring at a TV, or gradually succumbing to some wasting illness like cancer?

    I'm not advocating a hunter-gatherer lifestyle (and I think some people in this topic think that I am), but dying is not a pleasant experience in any society, including our own.

    Duffel on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Duffel wrote: »
    Ego wrote: »
    As mentioned, 'good' is awfully hard to define here.

    I'm impressed with civilization. We've come up with some classy shit.

    And, hey, if you want to go back to the hunter gatherer bit, you can always try to integrate with the nomadic pastoralists that still remain in the Bakhtiari people.

    Of course, when someone gets too old or infirm to make the journey every year, they just sit down at the point where they can go no further and wait to die.
    As opposed to our own society, where we usually spend the last few years getting foggy upstairs, gradually becoming completely unable to take care of ourselves, spending most of our time shuffling around a hospital/nursing home hallway, or gradually succumbing to some wasting illness?

    I'm not advocating a hunter-gatherer lifestyle (and I think some people in this topic think that I am), but dying is not a pleasant experience in any society, including our own.

    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Civilization has cooler crap.

    Couscous on
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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Duffel wrote: »
    Ego wrote: »
    As mentioned, 'good' is awfully hard to define here.

    I'm impressed with civilization. We've come up with some classy shit.

    And, hey, if you want to go back to the hunter gatherer bit, you can always try to integrate with the nomadic pastoralists that still remain in the Bakhtiari people.

    Of course, when someone gets too old or infirm to make the journey every year, they just sit down at the point where they can go no further and wait to die.
    As opposed to our own society, where we usually spend the last few years getting foggy upstairs, gradually becoming completely unable to take care of ourselves, spending most of our time shuffling around a hospital/nursing home hallway, or gradually succumbing to some wasting illness?

    I'm not advocating a hunter-gatherer lifestyle (and I think some people in this topic think that I am), but dying is not a pleasant experience in any society, including our own.

    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.

    Yeah, I don't get that complaint at all. My grandma was going to the bingo parlor when she was 100 (Okinawans, they're freakin immortal), as opposed to dying alone from exposure/starvation in the middle of a field.

    BubbaT on
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    DuffelDuffel jacobkosh Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.
    I'm glad that your grandfather was able to have such a fulfilling end to his life, although I'm sorry that you lost him.

    Still, you have to admit that is hardly a universal, even in the most developed countries. Many people spend their last few years battling constant illness, mental and social deprivation (do you know how many people in nursing homes never have anybody in to visit them?), and extreme restrictions on what they're able to do (in other words, substantially reduced quality-of-life).

    Duffel on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Duffel wrote: »
    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.
    I'm glad that your grandfather was able to have such a fulfilling end to his life, although I'm sorry that you lost him.

    Still, you have to admit that is hardly a universal, even in the most developed countries. Many people spend their last few years battling constant illness, mental and social deprivation (do you know how many people in nursing homes never have anybody in to visit them?), and extreme restrictions on what they're able to do (in other words, substantially reduced quality-of-life).

    As I've said, this isn't a criticism of civilization as much as its a complaint that its not civilizationy enough.

    I'm also not sure how aging is the fault of civilization.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    FirstComradeStalinFirstComradeStalin Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Duffel wrote: »
    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.
    I'm glad that your grandfather was able to have such a fulfilling end to his life, although I'm sorry that you lost him.

    Still, you have to admit that is hardly a universal, even in the most developed countries. Many people spend their last few years battling constant illness, mental and social deprivation (do you know how many people in nursing homes never have anybody in to visit them?), and extreme restrictions on what they're able to do (in other words, substantially reduced quality-of-life).

    So what's your point? That old people in nursing homes should just be put on an ice float and kicked off into the ocean like Eskimos?

    FirstComradeStalin on
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    IsidoreIsidore Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    A lot of the criticisms written here have been written far more eloquently in the past as marxist criticisms of market/state capitalism, and some specific ones (treatment of the elderly, loss of connection with family, increasing wealth disparity, wealth as social-status) as critiques of late/neoliberal capitalism.

    Isidore on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Isidore wrote: »
    A lot of the criticisms written here have been written far more eloquently in the past as marxist criticisms of market/state capitalism, and some specific ones (treatment of the elderly, loss of connection with family, increasing wealth disparity, wealth as social-status) as critiques of late/neoliberal capitalism.

    To be sure, there are many, many things to criticize about how we implement civilization, but civilization itself is not what is being critiqued.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Duffel wrote: »
    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.
    I'm glad that your grandfather was able to have such a fulfilling end to his life, although I'm sorry that you lost him.

    Still, you have to admit that is hardly a universal, even in the most developed countries. Many people spend their last few years battling constant illness, mental and social deprivation (do you know how many people in nursing homes never have anybody in to visit them?), and extreme restrictions on what they're able to do (in other words, substantially reduced quality-of-life).

    I think that's more of a cultural thing than a first world thing. In Japan, Korea and China it's pretty common to have grandparents either living with or living nearby their children, and visits are a pretty regular thing.

    Loren Michael on
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    CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Duffel wrote: »
    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.
    I'm glad that your grandfather was able to have such a fulfilling end to his life, although I'm sorry that you lost him.

    Still, you have to admit that is hardly a universal, even in the most developed countries. Many people spend their last few years battling constant illness, mental and social deprivation (do you know how many people in nursing homes never have anybody in to visit them?), and extreme restrictions on what they're able to do (in other words, substantially reduced quality-of-life).

    So what's your point? That old people in nursing homes should just be put on an ice float and kicked off into the ocean like Eskimos?

    Some people would consider this a better way to die. I personally would rather be kicked to sea than lose my mind and have a really terrible quality of life. But this is more something to do with our culture than civilization.

    I personally find the biggest drawback of civilization to be all those pesky rules. I am more so talking about beuracracy than rules like dont kill. If I knew how to be a hunter gatherer I would do it in a heartbeat, but thats just because I personally just like the free spirited nature of it. I think being truly free in spirit is more important than physical comfort, the only reason I haven't yet acted on it is mostly fear, and also them damn video games I love so much.

    Peeps probably think I am crazy.

    Alone in the wilderness, watch it. So much better than Into the wild. (yes he uses some things from civilization). But damn, you gotta love that dudes spirit.

    CasedOut on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    Quid on
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    Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    While I answered it flippantly earlier, I thought about the question on my bus ride home and I really can't see any real reason to oppose civilization. Especially if you look at the question in a long-term view.

    With civilization, we get science and technology, and therefore there's a chance that we can move the human race (or at least enough people to guarantee its survival for another few generations) away from our sun before it supernovas and engulfs the earth. While I'm not so human-centric as to believe it's guaranteed that we will live that long, at least the possibility exists.

    With hunter-gather nomadic culture, the supernova becomes a guaranteed death sentence. There's not a chance a single human being will survive past it.

    Raiden333 on
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    CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    CasedOut on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It keeps me from dumping toxic chemicals in your well.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Standardized procedure that guides processes and formal division of powers are very useful things.

    Couscous on
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    CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It keeps me from dumping toxic chemicals in your well.

    I think I just hate people now that you mention it. The fact that a human being would do this to another just boggles my mind.

    edit: its a love hate relationship

    CasedOut on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It's what allows for the actual support and application of large organizations to enforce rules, regulations, etc. It sucks in that it can be annoying, but so does getting vaccines from a hypodermic needle. Nobody really likes either, but because of them lives are vastly improved.

    Quid on
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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.
    I'm glad that your grandfather was able to have such a fulfilling end to his life, although I'm sorry that you lost him.

    Still, you have to admit that is hardly a universal, even in the most developed countries. Many people spend their last few years battling constant illness, mental and social deprivation (do you know how many people in nursing homes never have anybody in to visit them?), and extreme restrictions on what they're able to do (in other words, substantially reduced quality-of-life).

    So what's your point? That old people in nursing homes should just be put on an ice float and kicked off into the ocean like Eskimos?

    Some people would consider this a better way to die. I personally would rather be kicked to sea than lose my mind and have a really terrible quality of life. But this is more something to do with our culture than civilization.

    I'll remember that the next time someone asks me to donate aid to starving Africans. It is much better for them to simply die now while they're young than to eat and survive and have to endure the ravages of old age 60 years from now, at the end of a long, full life.

    BubbaT on
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    CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It's what allows for the actual support and application of large organizations to enforce rules, regulations, etc. It sucks in that it can be annoying, but so do getting vaccines from a hypodermic needle. Nobody really likes either, but because of them lives are vastly improved.

    Funny you should say that. I am philosophically opposed to forced immunizations. I absolutely despise them in fact.

    CasedOut on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It's what allows for the actual support and application of large organizations to enforce rules, regulations, etc. It sucks in that it can be annoying, but so do getting vaccines from a hypodermic needle. Nobody really likes either, but because of them lives are vastly improved.

    Funny you should say that. I am philosophically opposed to forced immunizations. I absolutely despise them in fact.

    Oh do go on.

    Tell me why I should die from polio because you don't want your kid immunized.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Well, except this guy:

    7a064842.jpg?t=1284158582

    He freaking loves that shit.

    Quid on
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    CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    BubbaT wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.
    I'm glad that your grandfather was able to have such a fulfilling end to his life, although I'm sorry that you lost him.

    Still, you have to admit that is hardly a universal, even in the most developed countries. Many people spend their last few years battling constant illness, mental and social deprivation (do you know how many people in nursing homes never have anybody in to visit them?), and extreme restrictions on what they're able to do (in other words, substantially reduced quality-of-life).

    So what's your point? That old people in nursing homes should just be put on an ice float and kicked off into the ocean like Eskimos?

    Some people would consider this a better way to die. I personally would rather be kicked to sea than lose my mind and have a really terrible quality of life. But this is more something to do with our culture than civilization.

    I'll remember that the next time someone asks me to donate aid to starving Africans. It is much better for them to simply die now while they're young than to eat and survive and have to endure the ravages of old age 60 years from now, at the end of a long, full life.

    Taking what I said to a bit of an extreme dont ya think?

    But hey it is better to burn out than fade away imo. May we die in the forest.

    CasedOut on
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    Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It's what allows for the actual support and application of large organizations to enforce rules, regulations, etc. It sucks in that it can be annoying, but so do getting vaccines from a hypodermic needle. Nobody really likes either, but because of them lives are vastly improved.

    Funny you should say that. I am philosophically opposed to forced immunizations. I absolutely despise them in fact.

    Oh do go on.

    Tell me why I should die from polio because you don't want your kid immunized.

    Can you guys make a new thread if you want to talk about this (or if you want to talk about squat toilets vs seat toilet)?

    Hexmage-PA on
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    CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It's what allows for the actual support and application of large organizations to enforce rules, regulations, etc. It sucks in that it can be annoying, but so do getting vaccines from a hypodermic needle. Nobody really likes either, but because of them lives are vastly improved.

    Funny you should say that. I am philosophically opposed to forced immunizations. I absolutely despise them in fact.

    Oh do go on.

    Tell me why I should die from polio because you don't want your kid immunized.

    How would YOU die of polio if you CHOSE to be immunized against it?

    CasedOut on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It's what allows for the actual support and application of large organizations to enforce rules, regulations, etc. It sucks in that it can be annoying, but so do getting vaccines from a hypodermic needle. Nobody really likes either, but because of them lives are vastly improved.

    Funny you should say that. I am philosophically opposed to forced immunizations. I absolutely despise them in fact.

    Oh do go on.

    Tell me why I should die from polio because you don't want your kid immunized.

    How would YOU die of polio if you CHOSE to be immunized against it?

    Because mass immunization is how we stamp out diseases. Otherwise they mutate and spread.

    Immunization isn't a spot treatment, its a blanket reaction.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It's what allows for the actual support and application of large organizations to enforce rules, regulations, etc. It sucks in that it can be annoying, but so do getting vaccines from a hypodermic needle. Nobody really likes either, but because of them lives are vastly improved.

    Funny you should say that. I am philosophically opposed to forced immunizations. I absolutely despise them in fact.

    Oh do go on.

    Tell me why I should die from polio because you don't want your kid immunized.

    How would YOU die of polio if you CHOSE to be immunized against it?

    Do you understand how immunization works? The reasons its important for populations, not just individuals, to be immunized?

    Z0re on
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    CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It's what allows for the actual support and application of large organizations to enforce rules, regulations, etc. It sucks in that it can be annoying, but so do getting vaccines from a hypodermic needle. Nobody really likes either, but because of them lives are vastly improved.

    Funny you should say that. I am philosophically opposed to forced immunizations. I absolutely despise them in fact.

    Oh do go on.

    Tell me why I should die from polio because you don't want your kid immunized.

    How would YOU die of polio if you CHOSE to be immunized against it?

    Because mass immunization is how we stamp out diseases. Otherwise they mutate and spread.

    Immunization isn't a spot treatment, its a blanket reaction.

    No security without freedom. Its a fundamental philosophical difference that I do not believe will ever be resolved after debating with many many people. Sadly it will lead to wars, because hey you are telling me what I have to do. From your perspective you are right, and from my perspective you are dead wrong. Why can't people just live and let live? Is it that hard? Apparently it is.

    CasedOut on
    452773-1.png
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    BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.
    I'm glad that your grandfather was able to have such a fulfilling end to his life, although I'm sorry that you lost him.

    Still, you have to admit that is hardly a universal, even in the most developed countries. Many people spend their last few years battling constant illness, mental and social deprivation (do you know how many people in nursing homes never have anybody in to visit them?), and extreme restrictions on what they're able to do (in other words, substantially reduced quality-of-life).

    So what's your point? That old people in nursing homes should just be put on an ice float and kicked off into the ocean like Eskimos?

    Some people would consider this a better way to die. I personally would rather be kicked to sea than lose my mind and have a really terrible quality of life. But this is more something to do with our culture than civilization.

    I'll remember that the next time someone asks me to donate aid to starving Africans. It is much better for them to simply die now while they're young than to eat and survive and have to endure the ravages of old age 60 years from now, at the end of a long, full life.

    Taking what I said to a bit of an extreme dont ya think?

    But hey it is better to burn out than fade away imo. May we die in the forest.

    I don't see the benefit of strapping dynamite to my chest at age 25 when I can also do it at age 65. I still get to go out with a bang, and also 40 years of doing stuff in between.

    BubbaT on
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    CasedOutCasedOut Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    BubbaT wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    BubbaT wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Duffel wrote: »
    My grandfather spent his last 20 years traveling the US before dieing peacefully and fairly quickly, with his mind intact until the end.

    Thanks to civilization.

    Your problem is rooted in a lack in our medical technology, and will improve with time.
    I'm glad that your grandfather was able to have such a fulfilling end to his life, although I'm sorry that you lost him.

    Still, you have to admit that is hardly a universal, even in the most developed countries. Many people spend their last few years battling constant illness, mental and social deprivation (do you know how many people in nursing homes never have anybody in to visit them?), and extreme restrictions on what they're able to do (in other words, substantially reduced quality-of-life).

    So what's your point? That old people in nursing homes should just be put on an ice float and kicked off into the ocean like Eskimos?

    Some people would consider this a better way to die. I personally would rather be kicked to sea than lose my mind and have a really terrible quality of life. But this is more something to do with our culture than civilization.

    I'll remember that the next time someone asks me to donate aid to starving Africans. It is much better for them to simply die now while they're young than to eat and survive and have to endure the ravages of old age 60 years from now, at the end of a long, full life.

    Taking what I said to a bit of an extreme dont ya think?

    But hey it is better to burn out than fade away imo. May we die in the forest.

    I don't see the benefit of strapping dynamite to my chest at age 25 when I can also do it at age 65. I still get to go out with a bang, and also 40 years of doing stuff in between.

    Did I ever say that anywhere? You are totally building a strawman.

    CasedOut on
    452773-1.png
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    CasedOut wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    For all the bitching people do about bureaucracy, myself included, it's a pretty great thing.

    And how do you know you want to live hunter/gatherer if you don't know how?

    I just like the idea of it I suppose. Also I don't see bureaucracy as a great thing at all, please do elaborate.

    It's what allows for the actual support and application of large organizations to enforce rules, regulations, etc. It sucks in that it can be annoying, but so do getting vaccines from a hypodermic needle. Nobody really likes either, but because of them lives are vastly improved.

    Funny you should say that. I am philosophically opposed to forced immunizations. I absolutely despise them in fact.

    Oh do go on.

    Tell me why I should die from polio because you don't want your kid immunized.

    How would YOU die of polio if you CHOSE to be immunized against it?

    Because mass immunization is how we stamp out diseases. Otherwise they mutate and spread.

    Immunization isn't a spot treatment, its a blanket reaction.

    No security without freedom. Its a fundamental philosophical difference that I do not believe will ever be resolved after debating with many many people. Sadly it will lead to wars, because hey you are telling me what I have to do. From your perspective you are right, and from my perspective you are dead wrong. Why can't people just live and let live? Is it that hard? Apparently it is.

    Freedom isn't spending childhood in an iron lung.

    You want to benefit from living in Civilization, you pay the entrance fee. In the 1st world this includes immunization.

    And equating immunization to the action that leads to war is goosery.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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