[The Big Sort] or How we only associate with other ppl who agree with us

Grain

I am borrowing this interesting book from a friend of mine. The basic premise is that Americans have self-segregated themselves for many years by only living within communities that have the same political/world vies as themselves. The author argues that this has strengthen the partisan divide among our citizens and has directly contributed to the intolerance of conflicting political opinions exhibited by both the Right and the Left.

The issue here is that when you live and operate solely among people who agree with you then you remove a critical self-reflection aspect to your life that can result from interactions with people who may not have your same political views. I find this to be particularly the case now with our generation and the types of forums we typically inhabit. We aren't being challenged to reflect on why we think or feel the way we do. We just seek out the type of people who can confirm our pre-existing beliefs.

Just wanted to get y'alls opinion on this. Do you find your own social circles and your own internet forums to be composed strictly of people who are of the same political mind as yours?

CommunistCow

I certainly understand this concept happens but I'm not sure how bad it is. When I was younger and living in Texas a hung out with a bunch of atheist liberals. I did this because I didn't want to have people trying to convert me every day or discussing how Clinton was the worst damn president ever. At least in D&D we argue about the various merits of liberal policies. With this sort of community we are able to refine our ideas about liberal policy. If we were more of a mixed community we would be spending even more of our time arguing weather or not poor people need help rather than more specific issues like the best way to help poor people.

Duffel

It certainly seems to me that this is the case. Most people want to hear and seek out validations of their own beliefs. Now that information - through internet, TV, talk radio, and what have you - is so omnipresent in our lives, it's very easy to do.

There's also big money in it. So the problem keeps getting worse because people with money have a vested interest in it getting worse.

I've lived in very liberal/educated university communities and relatively conservative small towns (although, admittedly, not the "eat the poor" kind of conservative) and it's pretty clear that most of the people on either side of the fence don't really have a conception about what the other side is like, just a kind of representative image of what they think it is. And, usually, they don't care one whit to learn otherwise, and are just as likely to get defensive if you try to tell them.

OptimusZed

I think there's some truth to it, but I don't know that it's as causal as what the author seems to be positing.

It's easy to be a self-sufficiency conservative when you live in a small, rural town and don't see a lot of the day-to-day problems inherent in humanity. But I don't think it's that mindset keeping those people in those small towns so much as a sense of belonging and an appreciation for some level of solitude.

The reverse can be said for liberals. It's much easier to understand why social programs need to exist, and why we should respect other cultures, if you're surrounded by tons of people all the time.

It's a segregation, sure, but I don't think it's ideologically motivated. I think in large part it comes about because of different experiences.

reddeath

It seems like he is correct to a degree. There is a massive gulf of intolerance between the two major parties, especially when you consider that there is a lot of overlap among moderates, but you wouldn't know it typically. People have a habit of just going with the flow.

I got a bit of a bonus in this because my father worked for lockheed my entire life, and was thus forced to move 8 times, each to opposite ends of the country, to places with vastly differing conditions.

Born in a mountain town in washington state, moved to 3 different houses, and had one parental bankruptcy to deal with, moved to PA, moved to youngstown, moved again to vegas, moved to northern, then southern california, then moved to ohio.

One thing I've quite grown used to hearing from staunch liberals or conservatives is the following "Man, all those (liberals/conservatives) are stupid, all they do is lie, and the government is bought and paid for by (liberals/conservatives) why don't (liberals/conservatives) understand they are stupid.

I also hate the 'both sides are just as bad' argument, because, while superficially true, it's not very specific. Basically 'both sides are just as bad' about ignoring good ideas from the other side, and refusing to think for themselves because they just want to fit in, and pigeonhole another group of sheep. It's VERY hard to agree with absolutely everything that comes out of a powermongering politicians mouth, yet, people claim to 'agree with everything XXXXX says' pretty frequently.

Also - university/educated and conservative are NOT some kind of antithesis, nor is small community and educated. I've lived in quite a few of both big cities and small ones, and I've met just as many city-stupids as I have cleetuses.

Duffel

reddeath wrote: »

Also - university/educated and conservative are NOT some kind of antithesis, nor is small community and educated. I've lived in quite a few of both big cities and small ones, and I've met just as many city-stupids as I have cleetuses.

I agree, I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying that. I've ran into plenty of people with Ph.Ds that were complete idiots; I guess they were just good at working the academic system/brown-nosing.

However, they are kind of on different ends of a cultural spectrum. Certainly most of the educated-imbecile types I've met imagine themselves as existing on kind of plane above the unwashed masses who don't even know who [obscure theoretical author] is. But of course that's anecdotal on my part.

Of course, not all academia is bad; I want to become a professor myself. But both sets of communities definitely can become somewhat isolated. Even individual academic departments can have ridiculous misconceptions about other people in related fields. People will probably pare off based on as trivial a difference as you can come up with.

OptimusZed

It's worth noting that people rarely set off to segregate themselves politically. They do, however, set out to find other people who share lifestyles or interests with them. And economic segregation based on home values is extremely common.

If you go around looking for the nicest place to live that you can afford, and your options are a place where nobody else hunts/fishes/games/whatever and a place where everybody hunts/fishes/plays backgammon/whatever, you're going to pick the one that's full of people like you anyway.

reddeath

Duffel wrote: »

I agree, I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying that. I've ran into plenty of people with Ph.Ds that were complete idiots; I guess they were just good at working the academic system/brown-nosing.

No offense at all, it's just one of the misconceptions that I noticed a ton of people have.

Really I kinda held it too until my last few moves, One of my better friends from high school, lived in more or less the heart of amish country, would just have bonfires and parties almost exclusively in the woods or cornfields, hell, even the occasional bluegrass concert, but talk to any of his family and they are liberal to an amazing degree.

Though it does kinda speak to the stereotype of liberal academics, because I'm pretty sure his father is a professor, and he went into teaching as well.

Still, it was very refreshing and kinda eye-opening for me to meet such staunch liberals in BF Ohio after living in a freakishly conservative area in palmdale california.

Grain

Just want to post a link to the book. If anyone here starts reading it then let me know. I'm currently going through it and am loving it:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0547237723/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1PD6MBCB24RXTC6606WD&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

CommunistCow

reddeath wrote: »

I also hate the 'both sides are just as bad' argument, because, while superficially true, it's not very specific. Basically 'both sides are just as bad' about ignoring good ideas from the other side, and refusing to think for themselves because they just want to fit in, and pigeonhole another group of sheep. It's VERY hard to agree with absolutely everything that comes out of a powermongering politicians mouth, yet, people claim to 'agree with everything XXXXX says' pretty frequently.

I have seen this too but I disagree with your assertion that is superficially true and lacks specifics. The complaints sometimes are vague but they at least reference some area of politics.

Hippies in Boulder: Damn Republicans are ruining the environment because they are ignoring global warming/mountain top removal/etc.
Republicans in Dallas: Damn liberals are taking away our freedom! They are stepping on the constitution.

Hint: One view is based on some vague factual data the other is based on horrible misconceptions or lies.

back on topic: I would also argue that we self segregate because it is harder to build a community with people you disagree with vehemently.

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

I think optimus basically has the right handle on this; that our explicit political beliefs are derived from a bunch of more basic values and preferences about people and culture, and "political" segregation is basically a side effect of a much more basic "people I like" segregation.

Political beliefs also aren't innate; someone who believes in an ideological concept who moves to an area where that concept is widely disbelieved in is likely to change their original belief, which reinforces this kind of "segregation."

Also because different areas have different policy needs, and since it's quite reasonable for people who live in one area to favor their own interests, it shouldn't be that surprising that different areas "segregate" themselves.