I can only speak to the hilarious wild fumblings of bronze, but early roaches tend to do a good job of tilting the game in my favor. I fuck up the transition a lot though. I get the depot down but then it's a mess of a-moving lings and halfdead roaches and I question the poor life choices that led to this moment.
Mouschi on
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
I'm curious: for you guys that don't find 5RR effective, are you experiencing the same timings I describe in the build order? Do you have roaches at his base around 6 minutes in-game time? What is preventing you from taking out a supply depot or their zealot plug?
If you seriously have a 24 game win streak at 1k diamond, you don't need to say anything else to convince me.
Any problems other people are having with this is probably down to not having a tight enough execution of either the build, or the bust.
Which is probably the main reason you are doing so well with it in the first place. If you are doing this every game you will have a huge amount of practice with it. Any aggressive build that is timed down to the second will have a huge advantage over a sloppy defensive one.
I have to admit that it could also be due to the "meta game" or whatever. I hate that term. But anyway, it could be that this is a good build against the sort of strategies Diamond players use but not a good build for actually getting to Diamond in the first place. I'd buy that. It's damn consistent, though.
Do you vary the build at all depending on scouting? When do you decide to give up on it completely?
Yeah. I mean, people give me shit in here for bitching about Zerg being underpowered, but I don't really feel bad when stuff like this comes up and Blizzard themselves acknowledges that there are balance issues that need to be addressed.
I think it's less that people disagree with you, more that the topic's been done to death.
Yeah, I don't know so many people (even out of those who wish no one would talk about balance) that don't think Zerg need some help. We've just... gone over it. Zerg got smacked hard by the nerf stick in beta. It never really went on long enough to let them recover from the roach food nerf. Zerg will get a bit of help. Be patient, young Skywalker.
Zerg needs lots of help, protoss needs a little help. The zealot nerf is going to make this much, much worse.
No, Protoss are mostly fine. The zealot nerf will help tremendously in making PvP enjoyable again. Later in the game the 5-second delay means you'll perhaps have an extra warpgate; the difference will be very minor.
I sort of wish they'd buff carriers and make the DT building a little cheaper. DTs see occasional use I suppose, but I'm the only player I've run into who uses carriers "for real" and half of that is because I think they're cool. In almost all cases void rays and/or colossi are more effective.
The zealot nerf means that you'll have less of them for a meat shield to the stalker-raping marauders. i think that removing stalkers "armored" designation away would improve balance issues a lot. EMPs take away such a huge hunk of protoss health, that a group of a dozen marauders and 3-4 ghosts can completely destroy a well built 4gate army.
Immortals are crazy expensive, build horribly slowly, require an extremely expensive (slow to produce) building, and have a range of 5, with no splash. This is the counter to the faster, (much) longer ranged, cheaper tank, quicker build time, that also does splash? You shouldnt have to get to Tier 3 to get units that do damage to more than 1 unit at a time.
Terrans can heal their army fairly rapidly with either medivacs or scv repair. There is no healing mechanic for Protoss outside of waiting for shield regen. BW had Shield Batteries.
The cost, build times, and food consumption of PvT equivalent units and buildings are completely out of whack. If P is supposed to be more expensive, because they're more powerful, then make the individual units actually more powerful.
---
And PvT isn't the biggest problem. Zerg's are just fucked 7 ways to sunday, by both Terran and Protoss.
If that were to happen I'm pretty sure mass hellion with preigniter would steam roll Protoss since all their tier 1 units would be light.
Fazey on
0
Tkenpost-CSL January 2012 Partycraft 6th Place WinnerRegistered Userregular
I'm curious: for you guys that don't find 5RR effective, are you experiencing the same timings I describe in the build order? Do you have roaches at his base around 6 minutes in-game time? What is preventing you from taking out a supply depot or their zealot plug?
If you seriously have a 24 game win streak at 1k diamond, you don't need to say anything else to convince me.
Any problems other people are having with this is probably down to not having a tight enough execution of either the build, or the bust.
Which is probably the main reason you are doing so well with it in the first place. If you are doing this every game you will have a huge amount of practice with it. Any aggressive build that is timed down to the second will have a huge advantage over a sloppy defensive one.
I have to admit that it could also be due to the "meta game" or whatever. I hate that term. But anyway, it could be that this is a good build against the sort of strategies Diamond players use but not a good build for actually getting to Diamond in the first place. I'd buy that. It's damn consistent, though.
Do you vary the build at all depending on scouting? When do you decide to give up on it completely?
I scout them with 5 roaches at their front door. :P
I haven't experienced an opening that would require any alterations to the build. The build is actually so tight that sending a drone scout at any point (even as late as 18) has a noticeable effect on timings. Every now and then on the 4 player maps I fail to figure out where they are with the overlords and have to send a ling. Even this is dangerous as a lone ling at your ramp can't stop a scout from seeing your Warren if they send it at just the right time.
I only give up on the build if I can't get lings into their base. Once lings are in, I don't think there's much they can do. You have a very simple macro chore at this point and can focus on 95% of your attention on microing those super fast lings to be a real pain.
Yeah. I mean, people give me shit in here for bitching about Zerg being underpowered, but I don't really feel bad when stuff like this comes up and Blizzard themselves acknowledges that there are balance issues that need to be addressed.
I think it's less that people disagree with you, more that the topic's been done to death.
Yeah, I don't know so many people (even out of those who wish no one would talk about balance) that don't think Zerg need some help. We've just... gone over it. Zerg got smacked hard by the nerf stick in beta. It never really went on long enough to let them recover from the roach food nerf. Zerg will get a bit of help. Be patient, young Skywalker.
Zerg needs lots of help, protoss needs a little help. The zealot nerf is going to make this much, much worse.
No, Protoss are mostly fine. The zealot nerf will help tremendously in making PvP enjoyable again. Later in the game the 5-second delay means you'll perhaps have an extra warpgate; the difference will be very minor.
I sort of wish they'd buff carriers and make the DT building a little cheaper. DTs see occasional use I suppose, but I'm the only player I've run into who uses carriers "for real" and half of that is because I think they're cool. In almost all cases void rays and/or colossi are more effective.
The zealot nerf means that you'll have less of them for a meat shield to the stalker-raping marauders. i think that removing stalkers "armored" designation away would improve balance issues a lot. EMPs take away such a huge hunk of protoss health, that a group of a dozen marauders and 3-4 ghosts can completely destroy a well built 4gate army.
Immortals are crazy expensive, build horribly slowly, require an extremely expensive (slow to produce) building, and have a range of 5, with no splash. This is the counter to the faster, (much) longer ranged, cheaper tank, quicker build time, that also does splash? You shouldnt have to get to Tier 3 to get units that do damage to more than 1 unit at a time.
Terrans can heal their army fairly rapidly with either medivacs or scv repair. There is no healing mechanic for Protoss outside of waiting for shield regen. BW had Shield Batteries.
The cost, build times, and food consumption of PvT equivalent units and buildings are completely out of whack. If P is supposed to be more expensive, because they're more powerful, then make the individual units actually more powerful.
---
And PvT isn't the biggest problem. Zerg's are just fucked 7 ways to sunday, by both Terran and Protoss.
If that were to happen I'm pretty sure mass hellion with preigniter would steam roll Protoss since all their tier 1 units would be light.
lol Zealots should be Armored and Stalkers should be Light. That would be great.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
I've only just now learned to do something that is like... Fucking standard.
And I'm successful with it.
Speedling run bys. It's like, "why did I never think that this really fast ball of units could do econ damage if their army is moving out?"
i do this all the time with speedlots once I bust walls. usually it's against a zerg player though who has built a ton of spine crawlers at the entrance...which I can stroll past towards their mineral line
Was thinking about the no queen challenge if you do 3 hatch, 1 at ramp 1 at nat then you're only really missing 3 larva unless you get 2 queens, then it's 6 but 2 queens is 4 food.
Pros-
More food
Could expand more
Cons-
Less larva
no creep highway
rely on static defense for base protection
Working way better now, seeing as how I won't be very poor next month I'll probably pay for the premium then, should be worth it to be able to rewatch sweet games too.
One tenet has been winning me a lot of games recently
the idea that you don't need to go in for the kill if you have the upper hand
Have the upper hand? maintain it and expand, he'll be forced to try something cutesy and if you're careful/smart you'll secure a win rather than fall because you didn't have enough harass defense, or because you ran into a choke
I've seen a bunch of pro games where the game is one sided and the person on the higher end wins surely but slowly. I think it's key not to throw a way victory because you're in a rush
For instance, he attacked me with 6 marines, I had 3 zealots, I ran my zealots away as two more pop. I run back and hit him, half his marines die. Run in and counter? No, sit on my advantage. I build a larger force and move to the middle, he moves out to attack me and I kill off half his force, and I lose about a quarter, he runs away. I sit there, and instead of using my advantage for the win, I expand. Once I've benefited from two expansions, I go in for the kill.
That terran really didn't like his marines eh? Except when the banelings showed up but man, he sure hrfdrfed with those reapers. On scrap station he should've went around to the debris nat (reapers can jump those cliffs up there) and attacked his main while drawing attention with the marauders.
just played ZvZ, had to go back to the replay to see what happened. he 6pooled and then... didn't attack me. shockingly, I made more guys than he did and won.
Mouschi on
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
Posts
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
Do you vary the build at all depending on scouting? When do you decide to give up on it completely?
He went 4 gate into colossus, which I kill, but he keeps doing and I expand the shit out of the map (metal) and he asks at the end,
"What should I have done?"
Because I'm so nice
But really, 900 games and he doesn't use storm against bioballs? rarglerarglerargle#!@$!#%! :...:
If that were to happen I'm pretty sure mass hellion with preigniter would steam roll Protoss since all their tier 1 units would be light.
I scout them with 5 roaches at their front door. :P
I haven't experienced an opening that would require any alterations to the build. The build is actually so tight that sending a drone scout at any point (even as late as 18) has a noticeable effect on timings. Every now and then on the 4 player maps I fail to figure out where they are with the overlords and have to send a ling. Even this is dangerous as a lone ling at your ramp can't stop a scout from seeing your Warren if they send it at just the right time.
I only give up on the build if I can't get lings into their base. Once lings are in, I don't think there's much they can do. You have a very simple macro chore at this point and can focus on 95% of your attention on microing those super fast lings to be a real pain.
I've only just now learned to do something that is like... Fucking standard.
And I'm successful with it.
Speedling run bys. It's like, "why did I never think that this really fast ball of units could do econ damage if their army is moving out?"
lol Zealots should be Armored and Stalkers should be Light. That would be great.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
i do this all the time with speedlots once I bust walls. usually it's against a zerg player though who has built a ton of spine crawlers at the entrance...which I can stroll past towards their mineral line
3 ogs members including 2 zergs, but more importantly ensnare is playing :P
Pros-
More food
Could expand more
Cons-
Less larva
no creep highway
rely on static defense for base protection
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Me on Twitch!
I destroy them with colossi.
had those stalkers been marauders the nexus would have died!
Really well played by the agressor, usually 4 colossi are an instant win for the side who has them :P.
"I am absolutely confident that I can destroy anyone once I have 5 colossi. I lost game 2 because he attacked before I accumulated 5 colossi."
He got closer to five in that game than the other two gaaah
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Me on Twitch!
To be fair, his economy was so busted it was ridiculous, he barely had anything but those 4 colossi :P.
This is gonna be sweeet
the idea that you don't need to go in for the kill if you have the upper hand
Have the upper hand? maintain it and expand, he'll be forced to try something cutesy and if you're careful/smart you'll secure a win rather than fall because you didn't have enough harass defense, or because you ran into a choke
I've seen a bunch of pro games where the game is one sided and the person on the higher end wins surely but slowly. I think it's key not to throw a way victory because you're in a rush
For instance, he attacked me with 6 marines, I had 3 zealots, I ran my zealots away as two more pop. I run back and hit him, half his marines die. Run in and counter? No, sit on my advantage. I build a larger force and move to the middle, he moves out to attack me and I kill off half his force, and I lose about a quarter, he runs away. I sit there, and instead of using my advantage for the win, I expand. Once I've benefited from two expansions, I go in for the kill.
Not scouting at all, and not harassing at all. Not really using any of the advantages terran has :P.
Good to see another zerg hopefully advancing as well.
Handmade Jewelry by me on EtsyGames for sale
Me on Twitch!
Gamertag: Cunning Hekate // League of Legends: FeroxPA
many thanks