Honestly the closed-off mineral line is way better against 5RR than a wall-in IMO. I think more terrans should consider it. But yeah, that was just a zonky build. Usually 10pools are for fast rushes because they're somewhat crippling economically.
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when do you plan on making your second turn at Civ?
So my friend today got promoted straight from Bronze to Platinum by doing nothing but make void rays. I watched him play like 5 games in class, and it was literally just enough zealots to hold off an early push, make 2-3 VRs, attack-move. He had multiple diamonds rolling over to this.
Do people just not make AA? I'd think it was a fluke, but he's won like 25 of 30 games in the last few days doing this.
i kindof made the decision last night to just VR rush my way out of bronze, and so far, i havent lost a game with it. played a straight 4gate game against a zerg, and lost - due to my mis scouting, not backing off when he dug in hard and teching after the dig in and damaging his econ...
would have crushed his ass with a VR rush, though. so, i'm cheesing my way out. and learning the real game in customs, with clicks and friends. :-)
Someone just told me my micro was terrible as I was finishing off his base-- which is true. But my macro is so riggoddamndiculous that I crushed him so who needs micro anyways. I mean, I have 3 bases you have one base and keep letting me kill your expo. All the fancy pants micro you saw in a pro game (where it mattered) ain't gonna make you good if I am three times as big as you.
Someone just told me my micro was terrible as I was finishing off his base-- which is true. But my macro is so riggoddamndiculous that I crushed him so who needs micro anyways. I mean, I have 3 bases you have one base and keep letting me kill your expo. All the fancy pants micro you saw in a pro game (where it mattered) ain't gonna make you good if I am three times as big as you.
I played a guy the other night and out macroed him, but in my scouting I watched him just run his lings around everywhere. Finally rolled in a stomped him with mass stalkers. He says "Ah I screwed up my micro lucky for you". Pretty sure running lings around in a spastic fit isn't micro.
I was having a really close TvP just now and I'm like "hey I have all these medivacs I should drop his base". So I load up all my dudes and managed to fly directly over his blink Stalker blob that happened to be nearby. GG no re
So I got my first taste of "Terran is OP!" just a moment ago.
TvZ, I was doing my Thor push build, wanted to do a reaper rush first, but I saw him go early gas so I was afraid of 5rr so I didnt go reaper.
Anyway, he does a baneling bust and breaks my wall, and kills my mans, but my first tank pops and i get a few scvs on repair and take him out. Then more lings come in and take out some rines, but my second tank and siege pop, so I slaughter the third ling wave.
I then build my Thorn while getting rines and a few rauders. I do my push with 6 scvs. And absolutely stomp him, he switched to muta to harass but I was in the midst of running through his base, so I wasnt too worried.
So I absolutely destroy him and he says "Lol @ bad terran still being able to win."
Though I will once again admit that my Thor push seems unbeatable by zerg. No idea what they could do to stop it.
Disrupter on
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Tkenpost-CSL January 2012 Partycraft 6th Place WinnerRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
I just had a startling realization: for many zerg spawns there is a place where you can build an offensive spinecrawler on their creep without them having vision of it. I've won four ZvZs tonight doing this after an 8pool and I feel dirty.
I just had a startling realization: for many zerg spawns there is a place where you can build an offensive spinecrawler on their creep without them having vision of it. I've won four ZvZs tonight doing this after an 8pool and I feel dirty.
Mind showing us a replay or just circling where on each map this magic spot is?
So my friend today got promoted straight from Bronze to Platinum by doing nothing but make void rays. I watched him play like 5 games in class, and it was literally just enough zealots to hold off an early push, make 2-3 VRs, attack-move. He had multiple diamonds rolling over to this.
Do people just not make AA? I'd think it was a fluke, but he's won like 25 of 30 games in the last few days doing this.
I played a platinum player who tried this last night. Maybe your friend?
Seems like an early roach / speedling push is too much for that build to handle.
kedinik on
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VR pushes don't really frighten me. I attack before a sizeable number of them are up, and since I'm in bronze I work on my macro foremost and field a mainly warpgate army.
VRs are too expensive early to stand up to that, I find.
So my friend today got promoted straight from Bronze to Platinum by doing nothing but make void rays. I watched him play like 5 games in class, and it was literally just enough zealots to hold off an early push, make 2-3 VRs, attack-move. He had multiple diamonds rolling over to this.
Do people just not make AA? I'd think it was a fluke, but he's won like 25 of 30 games in the last few days doing this.
I played a platinum player who tried this last night. Maybe your friend?
Seems like an early roach / speedling push is too much for that build to handle.
It would seem like anything that can handle two cannons and a couple of zealots should be able to crack that first. He just kept sending like 2 VR into a guy's base, find no AA, and wipe him. A couple of turrets or a few marines would have done the trick.
At first I thought he must have been getting a lot better, but he assured me he was just VR rushing over and over. I figured I'd watch him, and sure enough, he beat like 5 plat-diamond players in a row.
I'm not really looking for advice on how to counter, since that's simple enough. I think I'm just incredulous at how consistently successful it was against high-level players.
rndmhero on
0
Tkenpost-CSL January 2012 Partycraft 6th Place WinnerRegistered Userregular
I just had a startling realization: for many zerg spawns there is a place where you can build an offensive spinecrawler on their creep without them having vision of it. I've won four ZvZs tonight doing this after an 8pool and I feel dirty.
Mind showing us a replay or just circling where on each map this magic spot is?
Here's one example of me losing to it in my first match of the night on Delta Quadrant:
How often do terran banshee rush in your experience?
Personally, maybe 1/3rd of my games. They seem way slower to come out than void rays, at perhaps the 7-8 minute mark in replay time. I attack around 6 to avoid having to deal with air (seems like a huge weakness for zerg in the early/mid game).
How often do terran banshee rush in your experience?
Personally, maybe 1/3rd of my games. They seem way slower to come out than void rays, at perhaps the 7-8 minute mark in replay time. I attack around 6 to avoid having to deal with air (seems like a huge weakness for zerg in the early/mid game).
Really? I wonder if it's that much for me. I can recall one game recently with banshee rush but I'm generally such a dick early game against terran it's tough to say what their game plan is
How often do terran banshee rush in your experience?
Personally, maybe 1/3rd of my games. They seem way slower to come out than void rays, at perhaps the 7-8 minute mark in replay time. I attack around 6 to avoid having to deal with air (seems like a huge weakness for zerg in the early/mid game).
Really? I wonder if it's that much for me. I can recall one game recently with banshee rush but I'm generally such a dick early game against terran it's tough to say what their game plan is
I see them pretty rarely, and even then it's usually a late-game mix. Is the time to tech to them that much longer than VR? I thought they were pretty equivalent.
VR pushes don't really frighten me. I attack before a sizeable number of them are up, and since I'm in bronze I work on my macro foremost and field a mainly warpgate army.
VRs are too expensive early to stand up to that, I find.
Yes, they are expensive. They take long to build. But if you hard wall-in, and build zealots on hold, you can get 4 VRs out before a serious threat. and if there is a serious threat, their army is out of position to defend, and i'll base race anyone when i have 4 VRs, and they're going gateway/any tier 1.
How often do terran banshee rush in your experience?
Personally, maybe 1/3rd of my games. They seem way slower to come out than void rays, at perhaps the 7-8 minute mark in replay time. I attack around 6 to avoid having to deal with air (seems like a huge weakness for zerg in the early/mid game).
Really? I wonder if it's that much for me. I can recall one game recently with banshee rush but I'm generally such a dick early game against terran it's tough to say what their game plan is
I see them pretty rarely, and even then it's usually a late-game mix. Is the time to tech to them that much longer than VR? I thought they were pretty equivalent.
you can get the banshees out before a VR, but you won't have cloak, or anything else in an army.
So my friend today got promoted straight from Bronze to Platinum by doing nothing but make void rays. I watched him play like 5 games in class, and it was literally just enough zealots to hold off an early push, make 2-3 VRs, attack-move. He had multiple diamonds rolling over to this.
Do people just not make AA? I'd think it was a fluke, but he's won like 25 of 30 games in the last few days doing this.
I played a platinum player who tried this last night. Maybe your friend?
Seems like an early roach / speedling push is too much for that build to handle.
I used VR cheese to get out of bronze quickly. Especially if you don't build the stargate in your main, it's pretty easy to surprise a lot of builds. It does lose hard to early speedlings. I've always been fast enough to at least base-race roaches, but maybe I never played anyone who was very fast with them. It also loses to a quick zealot rush.
So my friend today got promoted straight from Bronze to Platinum by doing nothing but make void rays. I watched him play like 5 games in class, and it was literally just enough zealots to hold off an early push, make 2-3 VRs, attack-move. He had multiple diamonds rolling over to this.
Do people just not make AA? I'd think it was a fluke, but he's won like 25 of 30 games in the last few days doing this.
I played a platinum player who tried this last night. Maybe your friend?
Seems like an early roach / speedling push is too much for that build to handle.
It would seem like anything that can handle two cannons and a couple of zealots should be able to crack that first. He just kept sending like 2 VR into a guy's base, find no AA, and wipe him. A couple of turrets or a few marines would have done the trick.
At first I thought he must have been getting a lot better, but he assured me he was just VR rushing over and over. I figured I'd watch him, and sure enough, he beat like 5 plat-diamond players in a row.
I'm not really looking for advice on how to counter, since that's simple enough. I think I'm just incredulous at how consistently successful it was against high-level players.
Let me explain my experience in this area - back in beta, I had no effing clue what I was doing... I actually placed into gold and then dropped into the lowest league because I sucked so much. At the time, I basically learned by laddering, so I looked up a build order and then just tried to make it work every time. I had no clue what to do if I saw a bunch of void rays hit my base, and I just lost. Eventually I learned how to deal with it and scout it early, but before then, I just got really good about a 3 rax MMM build, so that's all I did. Eventually it took my up to platinum in beta, but that's all I learned how to do.
Obviously, learning how to adjust your build depending on what your opponent is doing differentiates players between the really good and the pretty terribad, but some players in diamond may have mastered one build and tunnel vision on that, not know wtf to do when you either cheese or unusual strat rush them.
How often do terran banshee rush in your experience?
Personally, maybe 1/3rd of my games. They seem way slower to come out than void rays, at perhaps the 7-8 minute mark in replay time. I attack around 6 to avoid having to deal with air (seems like a huge weakness for zerg in the early/mid game).
Same experience here; banshee rush about 1/3 plays. It's very hard to deal with because the units and upgrades that defeat a banshee rush are very different from those that defeat marines (for toss), and there's a very easy transition from banshee rush to ground army with banshee support (which is far deadlier than a toss ground army with void ray support).
The tough part is that the banshee is (theoretically) balanced by it's total vulnerability to air units—but because the terran mineral sink is also a fantastic anti-air weapon, banshees are really hard to kill this way. Even mixing phoenixes and zealots won't work—the marines might shoot the zealots instead of the phoenix, but the banshees are still dealing more DPS to your zealots than your phoenixes are dealing to the banshees (and at the same cost per unit!). Meanwhile you have to kill all the banshees and all the marines to win, while he has to kill either all the zealots or all the phoenixes—his choice.
In practice banshees are better countered by ground units, although the only thing that's genuinely strong against them is the templar. Stalkers can win cost-for-cost in gas, but not by a wide margin—and they're strongly countered by marines, too.
What about stalker/sentry and splitting any marine force he has?
It very seldom works because you're way behind in unit efficiency—stalkers and sentries both have poor dps, while marines and banshees are both very efficient in that regard. Even with a good split he'll still have as much or nearly as much firepower as you.
It's worth trying, though, if you don't have templar yet, and it's better than zealot+phoenix.
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Not to be rude, but that is like the furthest thing from 5RR. That's a 10pool into mass roaches, which is as far as being sane goes, isn't. :P
Props to Stiggy for straightening me out
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Honestly the closed-off mineral line is way better against 5RR than a wall-in IMO. I think more terrans should consider it. But yeah, that was just a zonky build. Usually 10pools are for fast rushes because they're somewhat crippling economically.
when do you plan on making your second turn at Civ?
Joe's Stream.
i kindof made the decision last night to just VR rush my way out of bronze, and so far, i havent lost a game with it. played a straight 4gate game against a zerg, and lost - due to my mis scouting, not backing off when he dug in hard and teching after the dig in and damaging his econ...
would have crushed his ass with a VR rush, though. so, i'm cheesing my way out. and learning the real game in customs, with clicks and friends. :-)
Joe's Stream.
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I played a guy the other night and out macroed him, but in my scouting I watched him just run his lings around everywhere. Finally rolled in a stomped him with mass stalkers. He says "Ah I screwed up my micro lucky for you". Pretty sure running lings around in a spastic fit isn't micro.
TvZ, I was doing my Thor push build, wanted to do a reaper rush first, but I saw him go early gas so I was afraid of 5rr so I didnt go reaper.
Anyway, he does a baneling bust and breaks my wall, and kills my mans, but my first tank pops and i get a few scvs on repair and take him out. Then more lings come in and take out some rines, but my second tank and siege pop, so I slaughter the third ling wave.
I then build my Thorn while getting rines and a few rauders. I do my push with 6 scvs. And absolutely stomp him, he switched to muta to harass but I was in the midst of running through his base, so I wasnt too worried.
So I absolutely destroy him and he says "Lol @ bad terran still being able to win."
Though I will once again admit that my Thor push seems unbeatable by zerg. No idea what they could do to stop it.
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If you want more just let me know. But yeah, stay away from that double hatch, no queen stuff. This ain't broodwar :P
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Mind showing us a replay or just circling where on each map this magic spot is?
Same here.
I played a platinum player who tried this last night. Maybe your friend?
Seems like an early roach / speedling push is too much for that build to handle.
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VRs are too expensive early to stand up to that, I find.
It would seem like anything that can handle two cannons and a couple of zealots should be able to crack that first. He just kept sending like 2 VR into a guy's base, find no AA, and wipe him. A couple of turrets or a few marines would have done the trick.
At first I thought he must have been getting a lot better, but he assured me he was just VR rushing over and over. I figured I'd watch him, and sure enough, he beat like 5 plat-diamond players in a row.
I'm not really looking for advice on how to counter, since that's simple enough. I think I'm just incredulous at how consistently successful it was against high-level players.
Here's one example of me losing to it in my first match of the night on Delta Quadrant:
And screenshots (they're huge, sorry):
Personally, maybe 1/3rd of my games. They seem way slower to come out than void rays, at perhaps the 7-8 minute mark in replay time. I attack around 6 to avoid having to deal with air (seems like a huge weakness for zerg in the early/mid game).
Really? I wonder if it's that much for me. I can recall one game recently with banshee rush but I'm generally such a dick early game against terran it's tough to say what their game plan is
Fun to watch, and you can get experience playing for a live audience.
I see them pretty rarely, and even then it's usually a late-game mix. Is the time to tech to them that much longer than VR? I thought they were pretty equivalent.
Yes, they are expensive. They take long to build. But if you hard wall-in, and build zealots on hold, you can get 4 VRs out before a serious threat. and if there is a serious threat, their army is out of position to defend, and i'll base race anyone when i have 4 VRs, and they're going gateway/any tier 1.
Joe's Stream.
you can get the banshees out before a VR, but you won't have cloak, or anything else in an army.
Joe's Stream.
That was the greatest use of sentries I've ever seen. That's why I love protoss.
I used VR cheese to get out of bronze quickly. Especially if you don't build the stargate in your main, it's pretty easy to surprise a lot of builds. It does lose hard to early speedlings. I've always been fast enough to at least base-race roaches, but maybe I never played anyone who was very fast with them. It also loses to a quick zealot rush.
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Let me explain my experience in this area - back in beta, I had no effing clue what I was doing... I actually placed into gold and then dropped into the lowest league because I sucked so much. At the time, I basically learned by laddering, so I looked up a build order and then just tried to make it work every time. I had no clue what to do if I saw a bunch of void rays hit my base, and I just lost. Eventually I learned how to deal with it and scout it early, but before then, I just got really good about a 3 rax MMM build, so that's all I did. Eventually it took my up to platinum in beta, but that's all I learned how to do.
Obviously, learning how to adjust your build depending on what your opponent is doing differentiates players between the really good and the pretty terribad, but some players in diamond may have mastered one build and tunnel vision on that, not know wtf to do when you either cheese or unusual strat rush them.
The tough part is that the banshee is (theoretically) balanced by it's total vulnerability to air units—but because the terran mineral sink is also a fantastic anti-air weapon, banshees are really hard to kill this way. Even mixing phoenixes and zealots won't work—the marines might shoot the zealots instead of the phoenix, but the banshees are still dealing more DPS to your zealots than your phoenixes are dealing to the banshees (and at the same cost per unit!). Meanwhile you have to kill all the banshees and all the marines to win, while he has to kill either all the zealots or all the phoenixes—his choice.
In practice banshees are better countered by ground units, although the only thing that's genuinely strong against them is the templar. Stalkers can win cost-for-cost in gas, but not by a wide margin—and they're strongly countered by marines, too.
marauders came with conc by default
so it all worked out
plus, while honestly i would like to see more roach burrow play
seeing zergs only press the r button in all matchups and winning was pretty bad
It's worth trying, though, if you don't have templar yet, and it's better than zealot+phoenix.