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[World of Darkness] Marginally safer than V:TM conventions.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    I still wish Beast hadn't gotten so utterly fucked up. It was a really, really neat idea to me.

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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    Oh, what went wrong with it? I heard a bit about it ages ago, at some point even grabbed a beta, text-only PDF that Onyx Path put out, and then hadn't heard a thing about it since.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    edited May 4
    IIRC they leaned a little too hard into most of the creepier/bad elements of the setting

    e: I seem to recall there being a big, frank discussion about consent as a thing a lot of folks who were initially pretty interested in the game all sort of went "wait what? no, ew." and kinda bailed

    Tox on
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  • ArdentArdent Skyline Ranger UndergroundRegistered User regular
    It was a very, very weird thing in the end. With like...rape apologism mixed with social justice agitation and victim blaming. I mean, everyone has a slightly different take but everyone's just sort of written the game off.

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  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    Delduwath wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, in OWoD, the second sight ability that imbued Hunters have would show mages as different from normal humans.

    Which is like, you know, means whatever you want it mean. Hunters are racist against mages.

    Auspex did this too. Magic users had sparkly auras.

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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue The 25th WardRegistered User regular
    Delduwath wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, in OWoD, the second sight ability that imbued Hunters have would show mages as different from normal humans.

    Which is like, you know, means whatever you want it mean. Hunters are racist against mages.

    Witch Finders is an interesting book about evil Mages. It could easily be about just going after the 'bad' Mages like Scelesti and such.

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  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Oh, what went wrong with it? I heard a bit about it ages ago, at some point even grabbed a beta, text-only PDF that Onyx Path put out, and then hadn't heard a thing about it since.

    Beast wants to be an allegory for oppressed groups like LGBTQ, and have the antagonist Heroes be stand-ins for real life oppressive group. Unfortunately, Beasts are monstrous and actively hurt people (to teach them lessons) which end up making the Heroes seem justified in hating your oppressed group analog. The whole "Beasts teach lessons through fear" also comes off as justifying abusive behavior which adds another layer of failure.

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  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    Neaden wrote: »
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Oh, what went wrong with it? I heard a bit about it ages ago, at some point even grabbed a beta, text-only PDF that Onyx Path put out, and then hadn't heard a thing about it since.

    Beast wants to be an allegory for oppressed groups like LGBTQ, and have the antagonist Heroes be stand-ins for real life oppressive group. Unfortunately, Beasts are monstrous and actively hurt people (to teach them lessons) which end up making the Heroes seem justified in hating your oppressed group analog. The whole "Beasts teach lessons through fear" also comes off as justifying abusive behavior which adds another layer of failure.

    Sounds like Berkeley: The University to me.

  • AssuranAssuran Is swinging on the Spiral Registered User regular


    Here's the first look at 5E Vampire.

    My interest level is decreasing.

    NeadenMrVyngaard
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue The 25th WardRegistered User regular
    That preview image alone fills me with apprehension.

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    The autopsy is the means through which all is revealed.
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Revenge of Purple Steve Registered User regular
    No, but see, it's clever, because the two VV's look like vampire fangs!

    n_zpsb1ejvspv.png
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue The 25th WardRegistered User regular
    'Father Sebastian, Master Fangsmith'.

    Some elements of the V:TM scene scare me.

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    The autopsy is the means through which all is revealed.
    Magic PinkLanlaornArdent
  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    No, but see, it's clever, because the two VV's look like vampire fangs!
    Oh, was that really the intent? To me, it just looked like a "W", because "Oh, White Wolf, I get it"; I guess I'm not as clever as the intended audience for that image :sad:

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    VV: Vampire V (5)

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Delduwath wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, in OWoD, the second sight ability that imbued Hunters have would show mages as different from normal humans.

    Which is like, you know, means whatever you want it mean. Hunters are racist against mages.

    Witch Finders is an interesting book about evil Mages. It could easily be about just going after the 'bad' Mages like Scelesti and such.

    Although at the same time probably not actual full on Supernal Mages because a Hunter is pretty much never going to be able to get one of them. Just too powerful.

  • AssuranAssuran Is swinging on the Spiral Registered User regular
    https://teylen.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/v5-playtest-impressions/


    Actual playtest impressions. Again, I have many issues with what is being presented and at this point I'm likely to continue using V20. This is alpha stage, so hopefully some feedback is taking into consideration.

    I don't get the point of bringing back a new "dark age" and the hamfisted attempt at horror regarding feeding.

  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    edited June 6
    Preview looks pretty disappointing. I don't see myself ever playing this over VtR or V20. I don't see the point of having six as a fixed target number and then still using d10s and I'm not a fan of requiring multiple successes. I didn't like virtues and vices in nWoD so disappointed that they are bringing those over and the hunger mechanic seems didn't with replacing dice. Glad they are getting rid of soaking damage though.

    Hunger really seems bad because it incentives you to roll as seldom as possible. Even if you are almost certain to succeed. Different STs call for rolls in different situations as well which will change how often it comes up.

    Neaden on
  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    So what's the general setting in the new system? Technology has made it hard to keep vampire society a secret so they are basically dismantling? I just got to the part of the review about "going dark" and how the coterie was isolated from clans and society, because, if I am to be honest, I don't like that. My favorite part of Vampire was the social "Game of Thrones" politics that Vampire Society is built out of and the idea that Vampires would go "Oh no, Technology has finally caught up to us, time to roll over and die!" really doesn't rub me right. While some clans might find such realities harder (Nosferatu come to mind, although they have been masters of stealth forever and a day) other clans would have mastered it, Ventrues for one and if mages have somehow figured out how to mix magic and tech, I would assume that Tremere would have figured it out too. Hell, in our world of "Strange is Good!" the god damn Malkavians would be YouTube/Vine starts with millions of subscribers/followers. If anything, I see vampires as reaching the point where they are trying to decide if coming out of the coffin is a good idea (Tru Blood like) since they can become a Social Movement. I mean, if WW wants to mirror current politics into the game, instead of trying to hamfist rape analogies into the game, how about they show to good and bad of social movements and the conflicts when different people's ideas pull and push and twisted it in ways they didn't want or not sure they wanted. Do you still stand with a movement you don't 100% believe in because of the greater good it will do for you, or do you rebel against it because it's not what you thought it was even though doing so might mean that you are forced back into hiding who you are? I think that would be more interesting than "The Second Dark Ages" setting.

  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Delduwath wrote: »
    If I remember correctly, in OWoD, the second sight ability that imbued Hunters have would show mages as different from normal humans.

    Which is like, you know, means whatever you want it mean. Hunters are racist against mages.

    Witch Finders is an interesting book about evil Mages. It could easily be about just going after the 'bad' Mages like Scelesti and such.

    Although at the same time probably not actual full on Supernal Mages because a Hunter is pretty much never going to be able to get one of them. Just too powerful.

    Not...necessarily. The CofD rules are pretty deadly overall. Mages are quite squishy and vulnerable to surprise attacks. It's the retaliation from other mages investigating the death of the first one that hunters have almost no countermeasures against. And 2nd edition Awakening closed the almost unbelievably powerful ritual magic exploits, so a couple of occult countermeasures or endowments could even up that playing field enough that hunters pose a real threat.

  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    The problem is Awakened Mages have so much they can do. A starting mage can send spirits, animals, or ghosts after you, crash your car, have your house coincidentally have a gas leak, commit crimes while shape changed to look at you, teleport a grenade into your house, give you a seizure, or destroy your relationship with everyone you know.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Isn't part of what makes Hunters scary is that they don't want to kill you, John Smith. They just want to kill something like you and have no real relationship to you at all. They'll show up out of nowhere (or a state or two over), launch a devastating attack and then get the fuck out of dodge if they survive the process.

    I only really knew anything about them in oWoD but they very much read as terrorists (/freedom fighters) to me.

  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    I thought they were like Sam and Dean Winchester...

    Nyht
  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
    edited June 6
    In CoD they can be any of those. The Hunter book for PC hunters lets you make blue collar workers who are tired of vampires feeding in your neighborhood, a society of ancient alchemists who sell drugs, a network of people studying the supernatural and sharing their findings, the descendents of people who made a pact with demons and now have spooky powers, bored rich sadists, or employees of a pharmaceutical company that is basically Umbrella Corporation.

    All of those have trouble going against Awakened Mages though who are much higher up on the food chain.

    Neaden on
  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    Neaden wrote: »
    The problem is Awakened Mages have so much they can do. A starting mage can send spirits, animals, or ghosts after you, crash your car, have your house coincidentally have a gas leak, commit crimes while shape changed to look at you, teleport a grenade into your house, give you a seizure, or destroy your relationship with everyone you know.

    Yep; hunters can pretty reliably ice one mage via ambush tactics, but they have almost no way of stopping the counterattack from the mage's friends. Though with the new endowment and occult equipment systems, it's a lot easier to say something like "We'll use these amulets to disguise our astral signature and make it harder for them to track us" and so forth. And hunters with backing from a conspiracy can get into an "ambush trade kill" war with a cabal of mages and still come out on top through numbers.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    The theme for Hunters is pretty much "yeah, you got one of them, but now you're fucked". This applies to Mages just as much as ticks, wolves or zombies.

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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    edited June 6
    Neaden wrote: »
    The problem is Awakened Mages have so much they can do. A starting mage can send spirits, animals, or ghosts after you, crash your car, have your house coincidentally have a gas leak, commit crimes while shape changed to look at you, teleport a grenade into your house, give you a seizure, or destroy your relationship with everyone you know.
    Please.

    I've got that covered on my own.

    Delduwath on
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  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    Honestly, It's hard to balance magic with mortals in any setting. Most of D&D (as long as I've known it, most) was fighter could cut a man down, the ranger could shoot two or three arrows and the wizard could call forth fire from nowhere and burn a whole village down. If things acted like they do in RL, one wizard could take out a modern army and burn the US down to ashes by the time he was champion level. When the concept of character is "They literally twist reality with their minds" you find that making anyone else a threat hard as fuck.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    edited June 6
    Honestly, It's hard to balance magic with mortals in any setting. Most of D&D (as long as I've known it, most) was fighter could cut a man down, the ranger could shoot two or three arrows and the wizard could call forth fire from nowhere and burn a whole village down. If things acted like they do in RL, one wizard could take out a modern army and burn the US down to ashes by the time he was champion level. When the concept of character is "They literally twist reality with their minds" you find that making anyone else a threat hard as fuck.

    Which is part of the reason Ascension went the way it did with the whole "in Soviet Russia Paradox Backlash, Reality bends You!"

    e: and part of why that worked as a real threat to keep Mages a bit more lowkey, even when you didn't have the Technocracy ready to rain down on them. Doubly true in Technocracy games, where RDs were combatable antagonists, you needed something to make sure they didn't just go HAM. Paradox made that work super well.

    ee: Ugh I wish I could find someone who could take the newst CotD mechanics and the old 2nd edition Technocracy setting and combine them into a sleek fun game.

    Tox on
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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue The 25th WardRegistered User regular
    NWoD Mage does a good job of having terrifying antagonists. The only thing scarier than being able to bend reality is a faction that can bend reality using scarier shit than you have access to, i.e. the Abyss.

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  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    Mages still have paradox. Plus, regular sleepers trigger Dissonance. Hunters need to do the legwork necessary to take down a Mage, but it's doable.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Mages still have paradox. Plus, regular sleepers trigger Dissonance. Hunters need to do the legwork necessary to take down a Mage, but it's doable.

    Like a lot of things, it really depends on how smart each of the sides is being played as. A truly paranoid Mage could probably survive an ambush from a squad of sloppy hunters, but a Mage who is just out doing his/her thing is going to die to the car bomb just like anyone else.

    So it comes down to which side is being more like a player character, essentially.

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  • AssuranAssuran Is swinging on the Spiral Registered User regular
    edited June 15
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    A quick read through the rules is kind of interesting. It's definitely a fairly different system. Streamlining attributes and the blood/hunger system, and it looks like they got rid of the virtues and replaced it with Virtue/Vice? Maybe?

    Disciplines also feel a lot more like the LARP system, which I don't think is bad, really. I don't think it outright states it, but it looks like you have to invoke each level of any given discipline separately, which really only affects the physical disciplines (again, not necessarily a bad thing).

    Overall I do actually kinda like that they took steps to move toward a more monstrous life for vampires. My biggest problem with the older game was that all too often you'd have people who played up all the sex and glamour and downplayed the actual tragedy/horror components. Which is fine! But it felt like it missed the mark when that was done, and I feel like these rules take a step back toward that goal of having to walk the fine line.

    And for the record I was totally one of those people who played up the fun parts and tried to circumvent or downplay the monstrous stuff.

    Well, technically, it was my LARP character 8-)

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  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    Yeah, I've argued that Vampires were better than people because at least their food got to live. For us to enjoy a chicken or even a veggie like corn, something died to give that to you. But with vampires, they could drank from someone, and that person could go about their business, just slightly woozy, but otherwise just fine.

    I think part of the reason also is that the game came out during the time when vampires where sexy creatures (and not sparkles in the sun emo kid) so most of us have sexy vampire as a vampire in our head when we think about playing one.

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue The 25th WardRegistered User regular
    Is anyone going to actually run the playtest scenario here? Could be interesting.

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  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    So reading the playtest and I'm at the Compulsions. I'm liking the new blood/hunger system. I like not having to nickle and dime my blood pool, but instead using my abilities only to deal with the fall out later when the action has calmed down. The "rewards now, risk later" actually makes me happy. I too would be interested in trying the game out if someone wants to do a Roll20/Discord game.

    Tox
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    So reading the playtest and I'm at the Compulsions. I'm liking the new blood/hunger system. I like not having to nickle and dime my blood pool, but instead using my abilities only to deal with the fall out later when the action has calmed down. The "rewards now, risk later" actually makes me happy. I too would be interested in trying the game out if someone wants to do a Roll20/Discord game.

    Yeah I really, reallllly like that. It makes it super tempting to just go ahead and say screw it I gotta win this shit, but then oops now I have to kill all humans *shrug*

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  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    I like the rule system. Mostly. I like the way it simplifies the old storyteller system, purifies mechanics and makes things more streamlined and coherent. I'm not super-fond of how much the crunch pushes you towards being a blood-junkie. I'm not really in favor of the "People are treasures" thing, providing powerboosts. Not for every vampire, although I could see a similar mechanic working as a more fleshed out Ventrue weakness. The preciousness of mortals is a thing best roleplayed imho.

    I HATE the setting. It's trying too hard at being current and "real" that it ends up being 90s edgy.
    Right. I'm a monster. I'm enough of a monster as a sociopathic vampire that I really don't need someone on my team to be a babyeating nazi pedophile "cleaner" (Yes, this is one of the test characters from the pre-alpha scenario).

    Overall, if official adventures keep the same tone I'm going to buy the primary book for the rule system, then I'm going to place the book on the Shelf of Shame, hiding it from all but my closest friends....and I'm going to make my own setting more in tune with oWoD.

    cj iwakuraGrunt's GhostsTox
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Yeah I mean I'm gonna support this and Werewolf just because I want to see what they do to with Mage

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  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue The 25th WardRegistered User regular
    A friend who's big on Mage says the new Awakening did some great stuff, but I still haven't read it.

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