[World of Darkness] Red Star shining at WW HQ, heads to roll

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  • WubWub Registered User
    edited June 2011
    So... I got done with my finals and have some free time. Would anyone be interested if I ran a game of Werewolf? I think it is a highly underrated game line.
    I've been playing a WtF game with some friends, but now that one of the other players has moved across the country it is more or less over. I'd be very interested if you think there's still space.

    Wub on
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  • TunosTunos Registered User
    edited June 2011
    I also might be interested. Someone's gonna have to tell me something about W:tF though. It's one of the core books I never looked at.

    Tunos on
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User
    edited June 2011
    The basic hook of W:tF is that once upon a time, the spirit and mortal worlds were united, and it was a powerful spirit named Father Wolf's job to make sure that spirits didn't prey upon humanity. Mother Moon, the moon spirit, was so enamored with Father Wolf that she wore a body of flesh and bore his children, the first Werewolves, who were part flesh and part spirit. Unfortunately, it was not meant to last, as Father Wolf was growing weaker with age, and it took him more effort and time to complete his duties. Six of his nine children decided that something had to be done, and they rose up and slew their father with the intent of taking his mantle. In her rage and grief, Mother Moon separated the worlds and cursed Werewolves for their sins, even the ones that stood by and did nothing.

    Today, PC werewolves identify themselves as Uratha, which is First Tongue for "Forsaken". They act as border patrol to the spirit world, ensuring that the entities of the Hisil neither meddle with humanity nor are completely cut off. Against them stands the infinite spirit hordes they are supposed to protect humanity from, vile spirit-hybrids called the Hosts, and (perhaps most dangerous) their fellow Werewolves descended from those that refused to slay Father Wolf, who are now xenophobic supremacists who call themselves the Pure.

    Ideally, Werewolves are one of the closest things WoD has to pure good guys. They're selflessly trying to protect the humans from a plane of infinite horror and diversity, and the best they can really hope for is a to carve out a chunk of land to call their own and do their damndest to keep it as safe as possible. In practice, they're just as flawed as everyone else in the World of Darkness. They're frighteningly territorial, and the Karma Meter only punishes slaying non-Werewolves "needlessly". This means that while manslaughter will ping Karma, killing a human that's trying to kill you or killing a Mage you feel needs to die for whatever reason won't.

    They're also probably the weakest splat in nWoD, but that's not really an issue if you're not in a crossover game.

    Jack Hobbes on
    ironzerg wrote: »
    I have a rule zero-zero at my table. If you're debating anything about the rules, and your argument starts with something like "...it just doesn't seem realistic that...", it's automatically invalid.
  • TunosTunos Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Weaker than Prometheans? I always thought Prommies, while hard to kill, had very little killing power.

    I always estimated the strongest nWoDers as mages, geists and changelings (usually in that order too).

    Tunos on
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User
    edited June 2011
    General power breakdown is usually Mage > Geist > Changeling > Promethan > Vampire > Werewolf > Hunter.

    Prometheans add their Azoth to just about everything, can (and do) change their faction regularly for more discounts, can purchase Transmutations out of sequence, can recharge Pyros relatively easily (especially with a dabbling in Vulcanus), and are really, really good at things like social manipulation and stealth. A Muse with a healthy investment in Mesmerism and / or Contamination can make people do just about everything and gets the 9 again rule while doing it.

    And yes, they're extraordinarily hard to kill.

    Jack Hobbes on
    ironzerg wrote: »
    I have a rule zero-zero at my table. If you're debating anything about the rules, and your argument starts with something like "...it just doesn't seem realistic that...", it's automatically invalid.
  • KayKay What we need... Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Not sure about nWoD, but in Old, a starting Garou would wipe the floor with any other starting super. That changed with experience, of course, but a single werewolf was a huge problem for a coterie of leeches.

    Kay on
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  • TunosTunos Registered User
    edited June 2011
    I had a Muse that I played like that, he was pretty baller actually.

    Had a Frankenstein that could charm pandorans. Once the stabby-stabby started though, she dropped quick.

    Tunos on
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Old Werewolves deal aggravated damage with their claws.

    New Werewolves only deal lethal AND they can't use the vast majority of their gifts while in Garou AND entering Garou automatically triggers Death Rage.

    Jack Hobbes on
    ironzerg wrote: »
    I have a rule zero-zero at my table. If you're debating anything about the rules, and your argument starts with something like "...it just doesn't seem realistic that...", it's automatically invalid.
  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Old Werewolves deal aggravated damage with their claws.

    New Werewolves only deal lethal AND they can't use the vast majority of their gifts while in Garou AND entering Garou automatically triggers Death Rage.

    Yeah, in general, nWOD werewolves are actually better off staying in human form in a fight.

    gtrmp on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    That's kind of lame. Werewolf is one of the only nWoD carry overs I haven't picked up. I remember playing Werewolf: The Wild West back in the day and just laying waste to virtually everything in our path. I suppose clamping down on that a bit can lead to interesting stories in a completely different vein.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Dalu (near-human) is generally the best form for the killing of things. Garou has its uses, but Rage and the fact that you automatically fail 95% of Mental and Social rolls while in it prevents it from being the go-to.

    Moreover, the biggest problem with Werewolves is Renown, which is an extra set of five stats they have to purchase that fuel their Gifts (most Gifts rolls are Stat + Skill + Renown). This means that, mechanically, Werewolves reach a point where, if they want to increase their Gift potency, they have to put points into Renown rather than stats that have mechanical weight. Vampires, for example, roll Stat + Skill + Discipline, so a Ventrue who wants to improve his Dominate rolls does so by investing in things that make him stronger anyway. Werewolves don't, eventually, leaving them with serious MAD issues to the point where it's not a good idea to invest too heavily in any Gifts period.

    It's not that you can't build a Werewolf that can go toe-to-toe with some of the baddest stuff in the WoD, because you totally can. It's just that it's hard to build a Werewolf that does anything else as effectively as some of the other splats can.

    Jack Hobbes on
    ironzerg wrote: »
    I have a rule zero-zero at my table. If you're debating anything about the rules, and your argument starts with something like "...it just doesn't seem realistic that...", it's automatically invalid.
  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I always wondered about that. It seemed like a really silly screw up on WW's behalf when the rest of nWoD is generally pretty well thought out.

    Delmain on
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  • TunosTunos Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Lol. I just read this over on Giant in the Playground.
    Sin Eater Key procurement is broken. For 10 XP, your Plasm-generating combat monster that relies on the Pyre-Flame Caul and Rage can pick up the Silent Key and become a stealth specialist overnight. High levels of the Boneyard have absolutely stupid ranges; a Sin-Eater with Boneyard 5 can activate the Industrial Key, spend a single point of Plasm, and spend the rest of the scene dropping planes out of the sky.

    That. Sounds. AWESOME!

    Tunos on
  • WubWub Registered User
    edited June 2011
    My group never really had trouble with the Death Rage with the exception one fight that took place across the gauntlet, so at least it wasn't as big a deal as it could have been. Garou form is pretty boss, but only in situations where you'll have enough things to hit until it runs out of steam. In those situations, however, there's really not a whole lot that can stop it barring mage crossover shenannigans.

    Wub on
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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I actually always liked the near-human form. There was just no reason to use it in oWoD unless you really, really wanted to use guns for some reason. Which made no sense, as you could become a 9 foot, 800 lb unstoppable engine of destruction at the drop of a hat.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    Dracomicron
  • Abysmal LynxAbysmal Lynx Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Wub wrote: »
    So... I got done with my finals and have some free time. Would anyone be interested if I ran a game of Werewolf? I think it is a highly underrated game line.
    I've been playing a WtF game with some friends, but now that one of the other players has moved across the country it is more or less over. I'd be very interested if you think there's still space.

    I'm still working on the NPCs. Don't worry about space, I'm not accepting anyone until I actually get the thread up.
    Moreover, the biggest problem with Werewolves is Renown, which is an extra set of five stats they have to purchase that fuel their Gifts (most Gifts rolls are Stat + Skill + Renown). This means that, mechanically, Werewolves reach a point where, if they want to increase their Gift potency, they have to put points into Renown rather than stats that have mechanical weight. Vampires, for example, roll Stat + Skill + Discipline, so a Ventrue who wants to improve his Dominate rolls does so by investing in things that make him stronger anyway. Werewolves don't, eventually, leaving them with serious MAD issues to the point where it's not a good idea to invest too heavily in any Gifts period.

    This is why I'm stealing the rules for Arcane Experience from Mage/Practical Experience from Hunter.

    Abysmal Lynx on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User
    edited June 2011
    That would probably work, as would something like Vitriol. Bonus experience that you can only spend on Renown will go a long way towards opening up Werewolves.

    Jack Hobbes on
    ironzerg wrote: »
    I have a rule zero-zero at my table. If you're debating anything about the rules, and your argument starts with something like "...it just doesn't seem realistic that...", it's automatically invalid.
  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Tunos wrote: »
    Lol. I just read this over on Giant in the Playground.
    Sin Eater Key procurement is broken. For 10 XP, your Plasm-generating combat monster that relies on the Pyre-Flame Caul and Rage can pick up the Silent Key and become a stealth specialist overnight. High levels of the Boneyard have absolutely stupid ranges; a Sin-Eater with Boneyard 5 can activate the Industrial Key, spend a single point of Plasm, and spend the rest of the scene dropping planes out of the sky.

    That. Sounds. AWESOME!

    Sin-Eaters are the most broken splat as written in the nWOD - not by design, but because very little forethought was put into the rules. (And playtesting? On a White Wolf game? Ha!). Okay, so technically mages are a little more broken, but at least in their case it's deliberate.

    gtrmp on
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User
    edited June 2011
    The fact that Keys don't get more expensive the more of them you have (like EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME) is just kind of baffling, especially considering their exponential power curve. Each new Key gives you options based on how many Manifestations you have, and each new Manifestation gives you options based on how many Keys you have. Keys costing more than 10 XP per pop should have been an obvious move.

    Also, they're the only splat with no weaknesses whatsoever. Mages get Paradox, Vampires get sunlight, fire and frenzy, Werewolves get Death Rage and silver, Prometheans get fire, Disquiet and Torment, Changelings get iron, and Hunters get all the other splats trying to kill them. Sin-Eaters? They get the satisfaction that they are absolutely, positively going to die of old age.

    Jack Hobbes on
    ironzerg wrote: »
    I have a rule zero-zero at my table. If you're debating anything about the rules, and your argument starts with something like "...it just doesn't seem realistic that...", it's automatically invalid.
  • Abysmal LynxAbysmal Lynx Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Don't get me started on Sin-Eaters. It took me so many house rules to make myself happy with them. Thanks for that comment though Jack Hobbes; I think it was the last thing I needed to finish making them good.

    Abysmal Lynx on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • TunosTunos Registered User
    edited June 2011
    B-b-but I like Sin- Eaters the way they are!

    Tunos on
  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Also, they're the only splat with no weaknesses whatsoever.

    Not only that; there's no mechanical downside to being Bound. There are actually fewer downsides to being a Sin-Eater than there are to being a mage.

    gtrmp on
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Tunos wrote: »
    B-b-but I like Sin- Eaters the way they are!
    The problem with Sin-Eaters is a lot like the problem with Mage the Ascension: it's supposed to be a game about horror, but it encourages you to be supernatural superheros (or villans).

    Jack Hobbes on
    ironzerg wrote: »
    I have a rule zero-zero at my table. If you're debating anything about the rules, and your argument starts with something like "...it just doesn't seem realistic that...", it's automatically invalid.
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I had a lot of fun running my attempt at a Geist game, but mostly because it was more about mortal horror and less about supernaturals.

    cj iwakura on
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  • MoosehatIVMoosehatIV Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    gtrmp wrote: »
    Also, they're the only splat with no weaknesses whatsoever.

    Not only that; there's no mechanical downside to being Bound. There are actually fewer downsides to being a Sin-Eater than there are to being a mage.

    Maybe if you were to mix the Geist system with a little bit of the Shadow from Wraith? Make it a little more realistic that you have a psychopath from the hellish depths of the underworld riding shotgun in your brain.

    MoosehatIV on
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    That's how I always saw it.

    cj iwakura on
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  • TunosTunos Registered User
    edited June 2011
    So with all this talk...how's about someone starting a cross-over game!?

    Tunos on
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I would never run a cross-over game without at least one narrator per splat.

    cj iwakura on
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  • TunosTunos Registered User
    edited June 2011
    You think it gets too mechanically complex to just splash in some of the elements? I could see how a few games would go well thematically. Like Mage and Changeling, just based on the shared realm of Arcadia, seem like they would come in contact with some frequency. And being that Mage doesn't have the most well defined theme, the Changeling "paranoid madness" could just sort of take over.

    Tunos on
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I see Mage's as 'dig too deep and you get buried'.

    cj iwakura on
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  • TunosTunos Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Whaaaaaat about a mage/changeling crossover where the changelings in the area get concerned that the mages are poking the realm of Arcadia too much and drawing the attention of a nasty gentry who will get a little to fed up, seek revenge and find the Lost in the process? BAM - story!

    Tunos on
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Mages and Sin-Eaters would be fun. Mages screwing with Arcadia never ends well.

    cj iwakura on
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  • MoosehatIVMoosehatIV Registered User regular
    edited June 2011
    With every Mage cross over all it seems to be is the Mages going "Trust me, I know what I am doing..." while the other splats just shake their heads and go "You don't know what you are getting into. You really don't..."

    MoosehatIV on
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    I really do think they have the most horrifying adversaries in Abyssal entities.


    Also: The Mysterium book get. It's quite good.

    cj iwakura on
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  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User
    edited June 2011
    There are a lot of problems with Mage crossovers, but by far the biggest is the fact that Mage players really, really don't like being told "no".

    See, there are some actual, tangible limitations to Awakened magic. Stuff like forcing a Werewolf to change against his will, counterspelling a Sin Eater's Manifestations, curing Vampirism, stripping a Promethean of his Pyros or preventing a Changeling from spending his Glamor are simply beyond a Mage's power. Period. Even when venturing into Archmagic, Tome of Mysteries makes it explicitly clear that yes, there's some stuff that magic is incapable of and no, there's actually very little a Mage can do about it. Mechanically, this is the way it is because Mages are strong enough without being able to monkey with the way other splats works. Thematically, magic works because Supernal law supersedes the laws the mundane world, but other supernaturals are anything but mundane. Regardless of where they came from or even if they came about through Awakened interference, immortal cursed undead, half-spirit shape changers, Pyros-animated corpses, ghost-human hybrids, and faerie abductees aren't playing by the mundane rules anymore, so their internal physiology and bizarre magics can't be directly interacted with via magic.

    To put it bluntly, both Mage players and Mage PCs (and NPCs) do not like this. The characters don't like it because being told that something is simply beyond their understanding, and always will be beyond their understanding, is usually enough to cause a Supernal-fueled temper tantrum. As for the players, Mage is a game about power and temptation and hubris, so there being hard and fast limitations on what Mages are allowed to do can be off-putting.

    Personally, I like that the limitation is there. That's just me, though.

    Jack Hobbes on
    ironzerg wrote: »
    I have a rule zero-zero at my table. If you're debating anything about the rules, and your argument starts with something like "...it just doesn't seem realistic that...", it's automatically invalid.
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    The general idea should be that no matter how powerful Mages are, there's entities out there that can do stuff that is simply beyond their reckoning.

    cj iwakura on
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  • TunosTunos Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Personally, I like that the limitation is there. That's just me, though.

    Well of course. If it wasn't mages could do anything, and that wouldn't be any fun for the other splats.

    BTWs...why are they called splats?

    Tunos on
  • Jack HobbesJack Hobbes Registered User
    edited June 2011
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    I really do think they have the most horrifying adversaries in Abyssal entities.
    Oh sure, for sheer, sanity-eroding bliss, you can't go wrong with the Abyss.

    But for my money? The most horrifying antagonists are the Strix. RAW, if you are not a Vampire and a Strix wants you dead, you die.

    Jack Hobbes on
    ironzerg wrote: »
    I have a rule zero-zero at my table. If you're debating anything about the rules, and your argument starts with something like "...it just doesn't seem realistic that...", it's automatically invalid.
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Regent Chantry of NightmaresRegistered User regular
    edited June 2011
    Tunos wrote: »
    Personally, I like that the limitation is there. That's just me, though.

    Well of course. If it wasn't mages could do anything, and that wouldn't be any fun for the other splats.

    BTWs...why are they called splats?

    I gave this some thought.

    My estimation?


    Wheeeeeee *SPLAT*.

    cj iwakura on
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  • TunosTunos Registered User
    edited June 2011
    So who'd be up for a predominantly Mage crossover if we could put the relevant parties together?

    I've got an idea for a Mage story and I was planning on splashing in other supes, but I don't have much nWoD experience and no Storyteller experience.

    Tunos on
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