Every once in a while I'm tempted to just cannon rush for a while to try to get back to .500 and maybe up to gold. But I just can't bring myself to do it.
Stay strong man, stay strong. You'll never improve as a player by relying on cheese.
sometimes you have to lay down a bunt to get out of a slump, though.
i've evolved to the point that i'm with Day9 - if you can do it in the game, it isn't cheating, low, or anything else, its a legitmate tactic.
ask DrPineapple about my VR Rush. It gets pulled out on certain maps, or if i'm in a big slump.
I'm not saying cheese isn't a perfectly legitimate part of the game, just that it won't help you improve as a player. Sure if you keep cheesing you may get more wins but once you start facing opponents that can deal with it, you'll wish that you had focused on improving your mechanics instead.
Every once in a while I'm tempted to just cannon rush for a while to try to get back to .500 and maybe up to gold. But I just can't bring myself to do it.
Stay strong man, stay strong. You'll never improve as a player by relying on cheese.
but being able to execute cheese well is a really great skill to have.
as someone who really struggles with cheese but does well in "straight" games, i actually think everyone should totally cheese me (and everyone else) 100% of the time.
if you dont take advantage of weaknesses, then what kind of wargame is this?
I'm not saying cheese isn't a perfectly legitimate part of the game, just that it won't help you improve as a player. Sure if you keep cheesing you may get more wins but once you start facing opponents that can deal with it, you'll wish that you had focused on improving your mechanics instead.
but shouldnt he just cross that bridge when he gets to it?
on this board, we always say, focus on macro! dont worry about apms! once your macro is great, then you can move on to micro.
i actually feel the same way about cheese (sort of). i think it's a great idea to focus on cheese first. when you hit a wall, then you can start focusing on other things.
i know it's kind of different from macro/micro, but to me the concept is not so different. focus on what works best first. have fun! win!
then when you arent winning or having fun anymore, try something different.
Every once in a while I'm tempted to just cannon rush for a while to try to get back to .500 and maybe up to gold. But I just can't bring myself to do it.
Stay strong man, stay strong. You'll never improve as a player by relying on cheese.
but being able to execute cheese well is a really great skill to have.
as someone who really struggles with cheese but does well in "straight" games, i actually think everyone should totally cheese me (and everyone else) 100% of the time.
if you dont take advantage of weaknesses, then what kind of wargame is this?
One where you say "good luck" and "have fun" beforehand?
rehtonAesoohC on
Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
0
MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
Okay, so I've felt like posting more videos of replays that I find interesting or entertaining. I'll start with this one, because I really like it, even though I've posted the actual replay on here a few times.
I'm not saying cheese isn't a perfectly legitimate part of the game, just that it won't help you improve as a player. Sure if you keep cheesing you may get more wins but once you start facing opponents that can deal with it, you'll wish that you had focused on improving your mechanics instead.
but shouldnt he just cross that bridge when he gets to it?
on this board, we always say, focus on macro! dont worry about apms! once your macro is great, then you can move on to micro.
i actually feel the same way about cheese (sort of). i think it's a great idea to focus on cheese first. when you hit a wall, then you can start focusing on other things.
i know it's kind of different from macro/micro, but to me the concept is not so different. focus on what works best first. have fun! win!
then when you arent winning or having fun anymore, try something different.
I think people say to focus on macro first because no amount of micro can win you the game if you have terrible macro...
I out-macro opponents regularly (that's pretty much the only way I win) - it's a fundamental. Cheese isn't a fundamental... if you cheese enough that you are a pro at it (and that's all you do), you aren't learning anything that you can apply later on really except how to gg out early when your strat fails, which is a terrible habit to learn.
Every once in a while I'm tempted to just cannon rush for a while to try to get back to .500 and maybe up to gold. But I just can't bring myself to do it.
Stay strong man, stay strong. You'll never improve as a player by relying on cheese.
but being able to execute cheese well is a really great skill to have.
as someone who really struggles with cheese but does well in "straight" games, i actually think everyone should totally cheese me (and everyone else) 100% of the time.
if you dont take advantage of weaknesses, then what kind of wargame is this?
One where you say "good luck" and "have fun" beforehand?
Do I have to bust out the line: What do the Koreans call a Quarter pounder line again?
Royale with legitamate tactics.
Funny story... War is conducted in a pretty civilized manner even in the late middle ages. Leaders Parley before a battle begins, shoke hands... and afterwards prisoner with no political values just have to swear to never join the battle for 5 years and then are set back home.
And then the french have to start chopping off peoples right index and middle fingers so they'll never will be able to stringup a long bow for the rest of their lives...
BTW: now a days when ppl type out gl hf or anything at all.. I immidiately suspecting cheese.
Nylonathetep on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
I am having a such a bad day at this game. 1-3 and the losses were all stupid, I didn't even feel like I got outplayed. Ugh. I fucking hate this.
I'm not saying cheese isn't a perfectly legitimate part of the game, just that it won't help you improve as a player. Sure if you keep cheesing you may get more wins but once you start facing opponents that can deal with it, you'll wish that you had focused on improving your mechanics instead.
but shouldnt he just cross that bridge when he gets to it?
on this board, we always say, focus on macro! dont worry about apms! once your macro is great, then you can move on to micro.
i actually feel the same way about cheese (sort of). i think it's a great idea to focus on cheese first. when you hit a wall, then you can start focusing on other things.
i know it's kind of different from macro/micro, but to me the concept is not so different. focus on what works best first. have fun! win!
then when you arent winning or having fun anymore, try something different.
Look at it this way. Let's say you get to diamond by practicing your mechanics/macro/build order etc. You'll have about a 50% win rate if the system is doing its job and you will have a grand ol' time. Now say you get to diamond by cannon rushing all your opponents. Suddenly the cannon rush doesn't work any more! Now you will constantly lose because your macro is much worse than your opponent.
Whether you enjoy cheese is a subjective thing but personally I don't. I play Starcraft 2 to...play Starcraft 2. I don't try to end the game as quick as I can just for a win. I also don't like to think that I won because my opponent made a mistake, rather than my skill level being higher than his. Again, I think cheese is a perfectly legitimate way to play the game, and I do do it on occasion. It just shouldn't be what you focus on if you want to improve.
I'm not saying cheese isn't a perfectly legitimate part of the game, just that it won't help you improve as a player. Sure if you keep cheesing you may get more wins but once you start facing opponents that can deal with it, you'll wish that you had focused on improving your mechanics instead.
That's not the point - he's in a slump. He's banging his macro head against the wall. Sometimes, to get out of a slump, you need to do something radically different, just to break the schneid.
Lay down a bunt. 8 pool. VR Rush. Double proxy zealots still works. Play as a Terran. Reaper Rush, it doesnt matter, this game is ultimately about winning, not perfect macro play, and if you are working on your entire game, but still in a big slump on the ladder, lay a nice stinky cheese turd on your next opponent.
There, no more loss streak, go back to regular play, or go practice in AI's or non-ladder to make sure your macro is tight, but don't let the spectre of an 8 game ladder loss streak haunt you, as it can stick in your mind and keep your mind going in circles. like monkeys swinging around a tree, you're mind can easily be trapped into the same circular thought pattern regarding your games. Lay the bunt down. Sweep the leg. Cheese your ass off, just get the win, and put the loss streak behind you. Then examine your games, see where the holes are, and start playing straight when its straightened out.
Sure, if you want to mix it up to get out of a loss streak that's fine. That's not what I'm arguing right now. PantsB originally said that he wanted to cheese to get a .500 WL ratio or to get back up to gold league, and that's not the way to do it if you want to focus on long term improvement.
I'm not saying cheese isn't a perfectly legitimate part of the game, just that it won't help you improve as a player. Sure if you keep cheesing you may get more wins but once you start facing opponents that can deal with it, you'll wish that you had focused on improving your mechanics instead.
That's not the point - he's in a slump. He's banging his macro head against the wall. Sometimes, to get out of a slump, you need to do something radically different, just to break the schneid.
Lay down a bunt. 8 pool. VR Rush. Double proxy zealots still works. Play as a Terran. Reaper Rush, it doesnt matter, this game is ultimately about winning, not perfect macro play, and if you are working on your entire game, but still in a big slump on the ladder, lay a nice stinky cheese turd on your next opponent.
There, no more loss streak, go back to regular play, or go practice in AI's or non-ladder to make sure your macro is tight, but don't let the spectre of an 8 game ladder loss streak haunt you, as it can stick in your mind and keep your mind going in circles. like monkeys swinging around a tree, you're mind can easily be trapped into the same circular thought pattern regarding your games. Lay the bunt down. Sweep the leg. Cheese your ass off, just get the win, and put the loss streak behind you. Then examine your games, see where the holes are, and start playing straight when its straightened out.
I'm not saying cheese isn't a perfectly legitimate part of the game, just that it won't help you improve as a player. Sure if you keep cheesing you may get more wins but once you start facing opponents that can deal with it, you'll wish that you had focused on improving your mechanics instead.
That's not the point - he's in a slump. He's banging his macro head against the wall. Sometimes, to get out of a slump, you need to do something radically different, just to break the schneid.
Lay down a bunt. 8 pool. VR Rush. Double proxy zealots still works. Play as a Terran. Reaper Rush, it doesnt matter, this game is ultimately about winning, not perfect macro play, and if you are working on your entire game, but still in a big slump on the ladder, lay a nice stinky cheese turd on your next opponent.
There, no more loss streak, go back to regular play, or go practice in AI's or non-ladder to make sure your macro is tight, but don't let the spectre of an 8 game ladder loss streak haunt you, as it can stick in your mind and keep your mind going in circles. like monkeys swinging around a tree, you're mind can easily be trapped into the same circular thought pattern regarding your games. Lay the bunt down. Sweep the leg. Cheese your ass off, just get the win, and put the loss streak behind you. Then examine your games, see where the holes are, and start playing straight when its straightened out.
Sure, if you want to mix it up to get out of a loss streak that's fine. That's not what I'm arguing right now. PantsB originally said that he wanted to cheese to get a .500 WL ratio or to get back up to gold league, and that's not the way to do it if you want to focus on long term improvement.
and you're right, long term improvement does not come with cheese tactics. tight macro and build orders are the key, i completely agree.
Sometimes, you just need a win. No matter how gouda you should be really playing.
Look at it this way. Let's say you get to diamond by practicing your mechanics/macro/build order etc. You'll have about a 50% win rate if the system is doing its job and you will have a grand ol' time. Now say you get to diamond by cannon rushing all your opponents. Suddenly the cannon rush doesn't work any more! Now you will constantly lose because your macro is much worse than your opponent.
Whether you enjoy cheese is a subjective thing but personally I don't. I play Starcraft 2 to...play Starcraft 2. I don't try to end the game as quick as I can just for a win. I also don't like to think that I won because my opponent made a mistake, rather than my skill level being higher than his. Again, I think cheese is a perfectly legitimate way to play the game, and I do do it on occasion. It just shouldn't be what you focus on if you want to improve.
i get what youre saying. i really do.
but i think lots of people like winning more than your version of "playing sc2".
my personal stance would be for someone to cheese until they get bored of it or lose badly again and again.
as long as they are having fun, that's great. improving may or may not be the goal of every sc2 player. wasnt there some dude who won like a few thousand games just doing scv rushes? see, that's fucking hardcore. and awesome. if he likes it, great for him.
my three cents.
Ketherial on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Look at it this way. Let's say you get to diamond by practicing your mechanics/macro/build order etc. You'll have about a 50% win rate if the system is doing its job and you will have a grand ol' time. Now say you get to diamond by cannon rushing all your opponents. Suddenly the cannon rush doesn't work any more! Now you will constantly lose because your macro is much worse than your opponent.
Whether you enjoy cheese is a subjective thing but personally I don't. I play Starcraft 2 to...play Starcraft 2. I don't try to end the game as quick as I can just for a win. I also don't like to think that I won because my opponent made a mistake, rather than my skill level being higher than his. Again, I think cheese is a perfectly legitimate way to play the game, and I do do it on occasion. It just shouldn't be what you focus on if you want to improve.
i get what youre saying. i really do.
but i think lots of people like winning more than your version of "playing sc2".
my personal stance would be for someone to cheese until they get bored of it or lose badly again and again.
as long as they are having fun, that's great. improving may or may not be the goal of every sc2 player. wasnt there some dude who won like a few thousand games just doing scv rushes? see, that's fucking hardcore. and awesome. if he likes it, great for him.
my three cents.
Okay? I never said that you have to improve to have fun. Just that if you want to improve, don't rely on cheese.
And yes, meditation is a great way to prepare for anything.
Now that I am close to finishing all the non-quick match achievements, I am putting out a formal advertisement for a body (or two) that is interested in getting the coop insane AI achievements done. These would include:
Also, if you want to get in the habit of grinding out coop insane wins for Co-op comp stomp: Insane 250, I'll be down with that as well. PM me if you're interested.
Kambing on
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
the worker rush guy said he wouldn't do it again if he knew what it was. probably because playing 4000 games just to spend 5 minutes parading a portrait around is pretty awful way to spend time. why spend so much time doing something shitty for that
Now that I am close to finishing all the non-quick match achievements, I am putting out a formal advertisement for a body (or two) that is interested in getting the coop insane AI achievements done. These would include:
Also, if you want to get in the habit of grinding out coop insane wins for Co-op comp stomp: Insane 250, I'll be down with that as well. PM me if you're interested.
It's not that hard to do. There's even a youtube video about this. Just pick Protoss and Cannon Rush every time. I will do this with you if I can get online tonight.
Posts
whoever I'm facing first in the tournament tomorrow: you're getting nuked.
sometimes you have to lay down a bunt to get out of a slump, though.
i've evolved to the point that i'm with Day9 - if you can do it in the game, it isn't cheating, low, or anything else, its a legitmate tactic.
ask DrPineapple about my VR Rush. It gets pulled out on certain maps, or if i'm in a big slump.
Joe's Stream.
but being able to execute cheese well is a really great skill to have.
as someone who really struggles with cheese but does well in "straight" games, i actually think everyone should totally cheese me (and everyone else) 100% of the time.
if you dont take advantage of weaknesses, then what kind of wargame is this?
but shouldnt he just cross that bridge when he gets to it?
on this board, we always say, focus on macro! dont worry about apms! once your macro is great, then you can move on to micro.
i actually feel the same way about cheese (sort of). i think it's a great idea to focus on cheese first. when you hit a wall, then you can start focusing on other things.
i know it's kind of different from macro/micro, but to me the concept is not so different. focus on what works best first. have fun! win!
then when you arent winning or having fun anymore, try something different.
One where you say "good luck" and "have fun" beforehand?
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jryr3kqRMLI
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbbg3JUK1nQ
Also features guest appearances by PA'ers in mumble. I was too lazy to rerecord after I realized, it was a long replay.
I think people say to focus on macro first because no amount of micro can win you the game if you have terrible macro...
I out-macro opponents regularly (that's pretty much the only way I win) - it's a fundamental. Cheese isn't a fundamental... if you cheese enough that you are a pro at it (and that's all you do), you aren't learning anything that you can apply later on really except how to gg out early when your strat fails, which is a terrible habit to learn.
Do I have to bust out the line: What do the Koreans call a Quarter pounder line again?
Funny story... War is conducted in a pretty civilized manner even in the late middle ages. Leaders Parley before a battle begins, shoke hands... and afterwards prisoner with no political values just have to swear to never join the battle for 5 years and then are set back home.
BTW: now a days when ppl type out gl hf or anything at all.. I immidiately suspecting cheese.
if people want to cheese let them
but if you are serious about wanting to 'get good' at this game
focus on your fundamentals
everything else should follow
Look at it this way. Let's say you get to diamond by practicing your mechanics/macro/build order etc. You'll have about a 50% win rate if the system is doing its job and you will have a grand ol' time. Now say you get to diamond by cannon rushing all your opponents. Suddenly the cannon rush doesn't work any more! Now you will constantly lose because your macro is much worse than your opponent.
Whether you enjoy cheese is a subjective thing but personally I don't. I play Starcraft 2 to...play Starcraft 2. I don't try to end the game as quick as I can just for a win. I also don't like to think that I won because my opponent made a mistake, rather than my skill level being higher than his. Again, I think cheese is a perfectly legitimate way to play the game, and I do do it on occasion. It just shouldn't be what you focus on if you want to improve.
That's where you have to just take a step back and realize you are having a suck day or something.
That's not the point - he's in a slump. He's banging his macro head against the wall. Sometimes, to get out of a slump, you need to do something radically different, just to break the schneid.
Lay down a bunt. 8 pool. VR Rush. Double proxy zealots still works. Play as a Terran. Reaper Rush, it doesnt matter, this game is ultimately about winning, not perfect macro play, and if you are working on your entire game, but still in a big slump on the ladder, lay a nice stinky cheese turd on your next opponent.
There, no more loss streak, go back to regular play, or go practice in AI's or non-ladder to make sure your macro is tight, but don't let the spectre of an 8 game ladder loss streak haunt you, as it can stick in your mind and keep your mind going in circles. like monkeys swinging around a tree, you're mind can easily be trapped into the same circular thought pattern regarding your games. Lay the bunt down. Sweep the leg. Cheese your ass off, just get the win, and put the loss streak behind you. Then examine your games, see where the holes are, and start playing straight when its straightened out.
Joe's Stream.
Yeah, I closed the game. Playing frustrated would just make it worse.
The worst part is I have a tournament match in 2 hours for a tourney at my school
:whistle:
Joe's Stream.
So look at it this way! You got your losses out of your system and you'll rock face at the tourney!
and you're right, long term improvement does not come with cheese tactics. tight macro and build orders are the key, i completely agree.
Sometimes, you just need a win. No matter how gouda you should be really playing.
Joe's Stream.
if you're worried about the tournament, and you need to get your mind ready for competition, playing the game can sometimes backfire.
Trust in your skills, if you've ever been taught how to meditate, sit for a while and do that.
Failing that, the next best thing is a huge hunk of excersize.
don't play the game, you already know how to play. you need a sharpened mind in your body.
Joe's Stream.
register with your Bnet ID here
i get what youre saying. i really do.
but i think lots of people like winning more than your version of "playing sc2".
my personal stance would be for someone to cheese until they get bored of it or lose badly again and again.
as long as they are having fun, that's great. improving may or may not be the goal of every sc2 player. wasnt there some dude who won like a few thousand games just doing scv rushes? see, that's fucking hardcore. and awesome. if he likes it, great for him.
my three cents.
That's good advice, actually. I used to meditate when I was still fencing competitively. Thanks guys.
Okay? I never said that you have to improve to have fun. Just that if you want to improve, don't rely on cheese.
And yes, meditation is a great way to prepare for anything.
2v2/3v3 Co-op Streak: Insane 15
2v2/3v3 Stomp Coverage: Insane
Also, if you want to get in the habit of grinding out coop insane wins for Co-op comp stomp: Insane 250, I'll be down with that as well. PM me if you're interested.
Is that what's going to happen in the losers bracket of the tournament?
FENCE TO THE DEATH!
either that, or first one to achieve nirvana, gets to play the winners bracket.
Joe's Stream.
Combination SC2/fencing tournament would basically be amazing.
It's not that hard to do. There's even a youtube video about this. Just pick Protoss and Cannon Rush every time. I will do this with you if I can get online tonight.