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POLITICS EXPLOSION [Liberal Strategies and Methods]

2

Posts

  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    wwtMask wrote: »
    It's not enough to get shit done, people have to know and acknowledge that you've gotten shit done. Dems are the worst salesmen ever. The goddamned tax cuts should've been dealt with MONTHS ago rather than allowed to linger and then falter a month before the elections.



    One thing I'll admit is that, as a supporter of the Democratic platform and the progressive movement, I dropped the ball these last two years. We all did. We got the Dems into office and thought we could sit back and they would solve everything.

    No the base didn't. You guys kept ranting about DADT, marriage, global warming, contractors, ect.

    I heard plenty from the base and plenty of pushing. The ball was not "dropped" it's just the focus was not on the issues many of the non purists wanted, namely jobs and the economy.

    To me the message was clear "the economy and all that can wait, we don't care, we've go other agendas that our political capital can be spent on". Which is why I'm pissed. And I view every issue that progress was made on instead of fixing the economy as political capital wasted, and part of the reason the economy is fucked.

    So all the non purists, are kinda up for grabs now. They wouldn't be had the focus be on economics solely, but evidently there were more pressing issues. Now the price will be paid.

    nstf on
  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    And man I could live just fine off 455,000, easily. I wouldn't know what to do with all that cash.

    nstf on
  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Putting aside all the ideological hand-wringing, let's look at the reality of why the Democrats are about to be slapped around like a red-headed step-child come November: They're the party controlling the White House and both houses of Congress during the worst economy in a generation or two.

    That's pretty much it. The economy sucks and people are out of work. And George Bush is back on his ranch clearing brush, so blaming him (and the out of power Republicans) comes off as a pathetic case of passing the buck.

    All of the other stuff discussed in the OP? Maybe it's of interest to political junkies and other nerds. But the average voter doesn't care- he's pissed off and he's going to punish the party in power.

    Yeah, that's pretty much it.

    If people want something to do, mounting primary challenges to incumbents who are in safe Democratic seats but aren't sufficiently liberal is probably the most productive avenue.

    Speaker on
    Being walkers with the dawn and morning,
    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I live pretty damned well on $12/hr.

    Anyone who can't live well on 20 times that much is mentally ill.

    Incenjucar on
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Guy is contributing 100k a year to retirement shit

    nexuscrawler on
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    It's not enough to get shit done, people have to know and acknowledge that you've gotten shit done. Dems are the worst salesmen ever. The goddamned tax cuts should've been dealt with MONTHS ago rather than allowed to linger and then falter a month before the elections.



    One thing I'll admit is that, as a supporter of the Democratic platform and the progressive movement, I dropped the ball these last two years. We all did. We got the Dems into office and thought we could sit back and they would solve everything.

    No the base didn't. You guys kept ranting about DADT, marriage, global warming, contractors, etc.

    I heard plenty from the base and plenty of pushing. The ball was not "dropped" it's just the focus was not on the issues many of the non purists wanted, namely jobs and the economy.
    The first thing Obama did was the stimulus, which wasn't big enough, but it was the first thing. The economy can't be fixed in one swipe, and three of the four things you mentioned would have created jobs for people who needed them as well or saved them. Giving Xe and its cohorts less money wouldn't create jobs as far as I can tell, but it would reduce the deficit, which apparently nowadays is one of the three things in the 9th Circle of Hell, along with spending on social programs and tax non-cuts.

    Captain Carrot on
  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    It's not enough to get shit done, people have to know and acknowledge that you've gotten shit done. Dems are the worst salesmen ever. The goddamned tax cuts should've been dealt with MONTHS ago rather than allowed to linger and then falter a month before the elections.



    One thing I'll admit is that, as a supporter of the Democratic platform and the progressive movement, I dropped the ball these last two years. We all did. We got the Dems into office and thought we could sit back and they would solve everything.

    No the base didn't. You guys kept ranting about DADT, marriage, global warming, contractors, ect.

    I heard plenty from the base and plenty of pushing. The ball was not "dropped" it's just the focus was not on the issues many of the non purists wanted, namely jobs and the economy.

    To me the message was clear "the economy and all that can wait, we don't care, we've go other agendas that our political capital can be spent on". Which is why I'm pissed. And I view every issue that progress was made on instead of fixing the economy as political capital wasted, and part of the reason the economy is fucked.

    So all the non purists, are kinda up for grabs now. They wouldn't be had the focus be on economics solely, but evidently there were more pressing issues. Now the price will be paid.

    I'm a little hazy on what is contained in the catagory of "things the government could have done for the economy but didn't because it was pushing effete liberal causes."

    Speaker on
    Being walkers with the dawn and morning,
    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Rust wrote: »
    how about you summarize that for us, sport

    cuz i'm not going to waste my beautiful mind reading what looks like a chain letter
    In a blog post called " We are the super rich" (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kpzaEp0IVw4J:truthonthemarket.com/2010/09/15/we-are-the-super-rich/+law+professor+super+rich+truth+on+the+market&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
    Prof Todd Henderson (a Uchicago Law Prof), complains about the Obama tax hikes and claims that at an annual household income of $450,000+ he's not really "rich" and doesn't deserve to be taxed so heavily abloo bloo bloo

    Economist J. Bradford DeLong responds with a little dose of reality. more specifically he: proves that $450,000/yr is rich by any reasonable standard, explains how marginal tax rates work, criticizes the guy's personal finances, and explains how rising income disparity amongst the rich has lead to people in the top 1% of US incomes not considering themselves rich.

    valiance on
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited September 2010

    We pay about $15,000 in property taxes, about half of which goes to fund public education in Chicago. Since we care the education of our three children, this means we also have to pay to send them to private school.

    Man, with the area he lives in, the private schools are probably really nice.

    Tofystedeth on
    steam_sig.png
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    what uber liberal causes have they tackled?

    DADT? Took the Dems about 45 milliseconds to fold like lawn chairs on that one
    Health care? Hardly a super liberal cause as much as its something bankrupting the country
    Stimulus? Teachers keeping jobs is latte sipping liberal country now?

    nexuscrawler on
  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Universal healthcare is a pretty core liberal cause.

    Speaker on
    Being walkers with the dawn and morning,
    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    Universal healthcare is a pretty core liberal cause.

    But it doesn't really fit nstf's narrative about how Dems ignored important things to pursue ideological agendas.

    I'd be surprised if he backs up his statement though.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    Universal healthcare is a pretty core liberal cause.

    But it doesn't really fit nstf's narrative about how Dems ignored important things to pursue ideological agendas.

    Yeah, I agree with that.

    You might be able to make a case that Obama chose to work on things like healthcare rather than pushing more extreme government actions like nationalizing the banks and doubling the size of the stimulus.

    On the other hand, when you campaign for two years on national healthcare and are subsequently elected you kind of have an obligation to follow through on the campaign promise.

    Or alternatively, that would assume that Obama thought more extreme government action was a good idea but didn't pursue it because he wanted to work on other things. If he didn't think it was a good idea (and it could be verified that more extreme action would have helped) then the problem would be that Obama doesn't know how to help the economy, not that he was distracted.

    Speaker on
    Being walkers with the dawn and morning,
    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Well in his defense, Health Care Reform could have done a great deal of good for our economy.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010

    We pay about $15,000 in property taxes, about half of which goes to fund public education in Chicago. Since we care the education of our three children, this means we also have to pay to send them to private school.

    Man, with the area he lives in, the private schools are probably really nice.

    That's a huge maybe. If all the rich people send their kids off to private schools and they are busing in kids from poor areas that bring their areas problems in with them the schools could be a cluster fuck.

    nstf on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I'm not sure how a person who owns a million dollar house isn't rich. The fact you just need to skimp to afford it means you are rich.

    Couscous on
  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »

    We pay about $15,000 in property taxes, about half of which goes to fund public education in Chicago. Since we care the education of our three children, this means we also have to pay to send them to private school.

    Man, with the area he lives in, the private schools are probably really nice.

    That's a huge maybe. If all the rich people send their kids off to private schools and they are busing in kids from poor areas that bring their areas problems in with them the schools could be a cluster fuck.

    I've never really understood people who are angry about the cost of sending their kids to private schools + paying taxes for public schools.

    I went to a private school, I might send my kids to a private school and it would still never occur to me.

    Speaker on
    Being walkers with the dawn and morning,
    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    It's not enough to get shit done, people have to know and acknowledge that you've gotten shit done. Dems are the worst salesmen ever. The goddamned tax cuts should've been dealt with MONTHS ago rather than allowed to linger and then falter a month before the elections.



    One thing I'll admit is that, as a supporter of the Democratic platform and the progressive movement, I dropped the ball these last two years. We all did. We got the Dems into office and thought we could sit back and they would solve everything.

    No the base didn't. You guys kept ranting about DADT, marriage, global warming, contractors, ect.

    I heard plenty from the base and plenty of pushing. The ball was not "dropped" it's just the focus was not on the issues many of the non purists wanted, namely jobs and the economy.

    To me the message was clear "the economy and all that can wait, we don't care, we've go other agendas that our political capital can be spent on". Which is why I'm pissed. And I view every issue that progress was made on instead of fixing the economy as political capital wasted, and part of the reason the economy is fucked.

    So all the non purists, are kinda up for grabs now. They wouldn't be had the focus be on economics solely, but evidently there were more pressing issues. Now the price will be paid.

    Yeah, no. Name one fucking thing that the Dems accomplished in the last two years that was not related to the economy in some way or another. I'll give you a freebie: the wars, and even then it's related because it affects the budget. You're just straight up wrong, and no amount of liberal punching will make you right.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Just because everything impacts the economy in some way doesn't mean everything is rightfully catagorized as an economic issue.

    Speaker on
    Being walkers with the dawn and morning,
    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The idea that you're not rich because you have so little money after engaging in a shit load of luxuries (multiple cars, private schooling for three kids, 60k in property taxes) is fucking absurd.

    Gaddez on
    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I think it's worth drawing the lesson that wealth is relative.

    After all, even people who make $40,000 and feel the same way as the professor are similarly unjustified in feeling that way given the global economic average.

    Speaker on
    Being walkers with the dawn and morning,
    Walkers with the sun and morning, we are not afraid of night,
    Nor days of gloom, nor darkness -
    Being walkers with the sun and morning.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited September 2010
    So this is Liberal Strategy thread then, yes?

    I am changing the title to try to maintain a modicum of on-topicness. If this becomes all scattery, it gets a lockin'.

    ElJeffe on
    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    Just because everything impacts the economy in some way doesn't mean everything is rightfully catagorized as an economic issue.

    Since the deficit seems to be such a big deal lately when talking about the economy, I figure that defense appropriations are a legitimate issue to bring up.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Do conservatives still care about a balanced budget amendment?

    Couscous on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    Do conservatives still care about a balanced budget amendment?
    Only when they're not about to take back over.

    So not so much right now.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »

    We pay about $15,000 in property taxes, about half of which goes to fund public education in Chicago. Since we care the education of our three children, this means we also have to pay to send them to private school.

    Man, with the area he lives in, the private schools are probably really nice.

    That's a huge maybe. If all the rich people send their kids off to private schools and they are busing in kids from poor areas that bring their areas problems in with them the schools could be a cluster fuck.

    I've never really understood people who are angry about the cost of sending their kids to private schools + paying taxes for public schools.

    I went to a private school, I might send my kids to a private school and it would still never occur to me.
    People are pissed off that even though they're paying significant amounts of tax dollars to fund public schools, they're not getting a quality educational product for their dollars.

    Which is not an unreasonable complaint.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Couscous wrote: »
    I'm not sure how a person who owns a million dollar house isn't rich. The fact you just need to skimp to afford it means you are rich.

    I'm not sure why someone who's pulling in $444,000 isn't rich.

    bowen on
    Ladies.
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    I'm not sure how a person who owns a million dollar house isn't rich. The fact you just need to skimp to afford it means you are rich.

    I'm not sure why someone who's pulling in $444,000 isn't rich.

    People making that kind of bank need to be kicked in the balls or ovaries repeatedly. I wish that I had the problem of trying to make ends meet on HALF A FUCKING MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. Fucking entitled bastards. :x

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »

    We pay about $15,000 in property taxes, about half of which goes to fund public education in Chicago. Since we care the education of our three children, this means we also have to pay to send them to private school.

    Man, with the area he lives in, the private schools are probably really nice.

    That's a huge maybe. If all the rich people send their kids off to private schools and they are busing in kids from poor areas that bring their areas problems in with them the schools could be a cluster fuck.

    I've never really understood people who are angry about the cost of sending their kids to private schools + paying taxes for public schools.

    I went to a private school, I might send my kids to a private school and it would still never occur to me.
    People are pissed off that even though they're paying significant amounts of tax dollars to fund public schools, they're not getting a quality educational product for their dollars.

    Which is not an unreasonable complaint.
    But if they made the choice to send their kids to private school, it rings pretty hollow. Or if they simply live in a society that is made better (more available products, better economy, lower crime rate) because their neighbor's kids are graduating from high school.

    Railing against school taxes that aren't absolutely out of control is about as short sighted as it gets.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »

    We pay about $15,000 in property taxes, about half of which goes to fund public education in Chicago. Since we care the education of our three children, this means we also have to pay to send them to private school.

    Man, with the area he lives in, the private schools are probably really nice.

    That's a huge maybe. If all the rich people send their kids off to private schools and they are busing in kids from poor areas that bring their areas problems in with them the schools could be a cluster fuck.

    I've never really understood people who are angry about the cost of sending their kids to private schools + paying taxes for public schools.

    I went to a private school, I might send my kids to a private school and it would still never occur to me.
    People are pissed off that even though they're paying significant amounts of tax dollars to fund public schools, they're not getting a quality educational product for their dollars.

    Which is not an unreasonable complaint.

    The rich benefit quite nicely from our public education system, whether they send their kids to it or not.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    I'm not sure how a person who owns a million dollar house isn't rich. The fact you just need to skimp to afford it means you are rich.

    I'm not sure why someone who's pulling in $444,000 isn't rich.

    I guess if you're locality expierienced an explosive inflation rate a la post-ww1 germany and you had to carry a wheelbarrow of cash to buy a loaf of bread, then $444k could be construed as middle class...

    Gaddez on
    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Well that third vacation island is really costly this year with how the economy is? I really wish I've heard more about the healthcare bill lately, actually.

    bowen on
    Ladies.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Universal healthcare is a pretty core liberal cause.

    But it doesn't really fit nstf's narrative about how Dems ignored important things to pursue ideological agendas.

    Yeah, I agree with that.

    You might be able to make a case that Obama chose to work on things like healthcare rather than pushing more extreme government actions like nationalizing the banks and doubling the size of the stimulus.

    On the other hand, when you campaign for two years on national healthcare and are subsequently elected you kind of have an obligation to follow through on the campaign promise.

    Or alternatively, that would assume that Obama thought more extreme government action was a good idea but didn't pursue it because he wanted to work on other things. If he didn't think it was a good idea (and it could be verified that more extreme action would have helped) then the problem would be that Obama doesn't know how to help the economy, not that he was distracted.

    Health Care IS an economic issue. It's a HUGE one.

    Do any reading on the subject and you'll quickly find the economic consensus is "Health Care must be dealt with soon or it will swallow the US economy whole".

    And Obama's always been pretty clear on this being one of the main reasons he made it a priority.

    Modern Man wrote: »
    People are pissed off that even though they're paying significant amounts of tax dollars to fund public schools, they're not getting a quality educational product for their dollars.

    Which is not an unreasonable complaint.

    It's not unreasonable to be pissed about the state of schools in the US.

    It is unreasonable to think the solution is "defund public schools and fuck everyone who can't afford private schools like I can".

    They are pissed about the right thing, but their solutions are dumb.

    shryke on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    But if they made the choice to send their kids to private school, it rings pretty hollow. Or if they simply live in a society that is made better (more available products, better economy, lower crime rate) because their neighbor's kids are graduating from high school.

    Railing against school taxes that aren't absolutely out of control is about as short sighted as it gets.
    The complaint isn't about the existence of public schools (well, except for a few fanatics).

    The complaint is that even though they are paying money for public schools, the schools in their area are of low quality, or even dangerous. Which forces them to spend money on private schools to ensure their kids get an education.

    I'd have no problem sending my son to DC public schools if they offered a quality educational product in a safe environment. The problem is, in many cases, they don't. So, people with money are forced to send their kids to private schools that can cost up to $20K a kid.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    This isn't really news. People are stupid - 30-40% will vote for whoever the current 'conservative' party ticked is basically all the time, 30%-40% will vote for whoever the current 'liberal' party is basically all the time, and the remainder will essentially ask themselves: do I have a job, and am I confident I will have one in one to two years? If so, vote for Those Guys Currently Running Shit . If not, vote for Those Guys NOT Currently Running Shit.

    Well, and then there are the majority who just say "Fuck it, doesn't matter anyway". Who are getting closer to having a point, really. They used to be just unengaged fuckwits.

    JihadJesus on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    But if they made the choice to send their kids to private school, it rings pretty hollow. Or if they simply live in a society that is made better (more available products, better economy, lower crime rate) because their neighbor's kids are graduating from high school.

    Railing against school taxes that aren't absolutely out of control is about as short sighted as it gets.
    The complaint isn't about the existence of public schools (well, except for a few fanatics).

    The complaint is that even though they are paying money for public schools, the schools in their area are of low quality, or even dangerous. Which forces them to spend money on private schools to ensure their kids get an education.

    I'd have no problem sending my son to DC public schools if they offered a quality educational product in a safe environment. The problem is, in many cases, they don't. So, people with money are forced to send their kids to private schools that can cost up to $20K a kid.
    Then it strikes me as, if you'll excuse my language, bitching to bitch.

    Because really you've got two options; lower taxes and accept that the schools will simply get worse or raise taxes to the point where you can afford to improve the schools. Obviously there are some administrative problems in there as well, but simply complaining about taxes is the single least productive way to actually approach a problem like public education.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Please stop using 'quality' as a synonym for 'good/high-quality'. Thank you.

    Captain Carrot on
  • RustRust __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    Please stop using 'quality' as a synonym for 'good/high-quality'. Thank you.

    why

    it's a valid term

    Rust on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    But if they made the choice to send their kids to private school, it rings pretty hollow. Or if they simply live in a society that is made better (more available products, better economy, lower crime rate) because their neighbor's kids are graduating from high school.

    Railing against school taxes that aren't absolutely out of control is about as short sighted as it gets.
    The complaint isn't about the existence of public schools (well, except for a few fanatics).

    The complaint is that even though they are paying money for public schools, the schools in their area are of low quality, or even dangerous. Which forces them to spend money on private schools to ensure their kids get an education.

    I'd have no problem sending my son to DC public schools if they offered a quality educational product in a safe environment. The problem is, in many cases, they don't. So, people with money are forced to send their kids to private schools that can cost up to $20K a kid.
    Then it strikes me as, if you'll excuse my language, bitching to bitch.

    Because really you've got two options; lower taxes and accept that the schools will simply get worse or raise taxes to the point where you can afford to improve the schools. Obviously there are some administrative problems in there as well, but simply complaining about taxes is the single least productive way to actually approach a problem like public education.
    Despite the claims of the teachers' unions, money isn't usually the problem. DC schools are a prime example- we spend more per pupil (about $14,500) than pretty much anywhere in the US, yet we have a near third-world public school system. We spend more per student here than in wealthy Montgomery and Fairfax counties, which have very good schools.

    The problem is that the teachers' unions and the entrenched educational bureaucracy look at the schools as a place for them to draw salaries and escape accountability, rather than a place where kids go to get an education. And when Mayor Fenty and Michelle Rhee tried to reform the system, the teachers' union made it their mission to make sure he wasn't re-elected.

    YMMV, of course- some places have good public schools. But someone paying high property taxes and not getting a decent school system out of it does have a legit complaint.

    The party that can figure out how to fix public schools will win the love of a big slice of the electorate. But the Democrats are probably too beholden to the public sector unions to be that party.

    Modern Man on
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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    But if they made the choice to send their kids to private school, it rings pretty hollow. Or if they simply live in a society that is made better (more available products, better economy, lower crime rate) because their neighbor's kids are graduating from high school.

    Railing against school taxes that aren't absolutely out of control is about as short sighted as it gets.
    The complaint isn't about the existence of public schools (well, except for a few fanatics).

    The complaint is that even though they are paying money for public schools, the schools in their area are of low quality, or even dangerous. Which forces them to spend money on private schools to ensure their kids get an education.

    I'd have no problem sending my son to DC public schools if they offered a quality educational product in a safe environment. The problem is, in many cases, they don't. So, people with money are forced to send their kids to private schools that can cost up to $20K a kid.
    Then it strikes me as, if you'll excuse my language, bitching to bitch.

    Because really you've got two options; lower taxes and accept that the schools will simply get worse or raise taxes to the point where you can afford to improve the schools. Obviously there are some administrative problems in there as well, but simply complaining about taxes is the single least productive way to actually approach a problem like public education.
    Despite the claims of the teachers' unions, money isn't usually the problem. DC schools are a prime example- we spend more per pupil (about $14,500) than pretty much anywhere in the US, yet we have a near third-world public school system. We spend more per student here than in wealthy Montgomery and Fairfax counties, which have very good schools.

    The problem is that the teachers' unions and the entrenched educational bureaucracy look at the schools as a place for them to draw salaries and escape accountability, rather than a place where kids go to get an education. And when Mayor Fenty and Michelle Rhee tried to reform the system, the teachers' union made it their mission to make sure he wasn't re-elected.

    YMMV, of course- some places have good public schools. But someone paying high property taxes and not getting a decent school system out of it does have a legit complaint.

    The party that can figure out how to fix public schools will win the love of a big slice of the electorate. But the Democrats are probably too beholden to the public sector unions to be that party.
    Speaking as someone who has seen an influx of money absolutely make a huge difference in public schools, I call bullshit. There are districts in the Philly school district that have been turned around in a couple of years by grants and other income sources.

    Like I said before, there are organizational problems in a lot of places. But we've got a problem in this country with wanting the world from our government without actually wanting to fund anything.

    OptimusZed on
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    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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