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The Strategic Incompetence of Democrats

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Posts

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    ntsf suffers from a chronic case of persecuted white boy complex

    nexuscrawler on
  • Psycho Internet HawkPsycho Internet Hawk Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I feel like that can't entirely be true though because he seems to have such a finely honed anger.

    Even if it's something trite like a minority beat him out for a job he really wanted or something. He doesn't throw around enough goofy-ass buzzwords to be a total nut.

    Psycho Internet Hawk on
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  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    Do you deal with many on a regular basis? Most major unions are artifacts from a lost age, irrelevant in today's world, with little to no motivation to move beyond their old ways. How they hold up against your examples is just a factor of scale, not ambition.

    I can't be the only one who sees the irony in the fact that the guy defending the conservative Republican position is attacking anything for being inflexible and outdated.

    gtrmp on
  • mrdobalinamrdobalina Registered User
    edited September 2010
    ronzo wrote: »

    You didn't really answer his question

    Then allow me to expand.

    Modern unions serve little purpose beyond the pooling of membership money into a centralized location to spend for advancing far left purposes. In states like California, which is not a right-to-work state, employees are forced to join unions and pay dues, which are then used at the discretion of the union for its own purposes.

    Locally, we are engaged in a massive fight between two unions that are both under investigation for embezzlement and corruption at the highest levels and have been presented with tangible cases of violence, racism, personal threats and vandalism to ensure employees vote how they are supposed to vote. At a greater level, unions operate to the detriment of all non-union employees, and a responsible in large part for the massive costs of healthcare here in California, the near destruction of GM, the bloat of the state government, and more.

    They are self-serving entities, which isn't by itself an issue, but to hold them up as paragons in the face of evil corporations is folly.

    mrdobalina on
  • mrdobalinamrdobalina Registered User
    edited September 2010
    gtrmp wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    Do you deal with many on a regular basis? Most major unions are artifacts from a lost age, irrelevant in today's world, with little to no motivation to move beyond their old ways. How they hold up against your examples is just a factor of scale, not ambition.

    I can't be the only one who sees the irony in the fact that the guy defending the conservative Republican position is attacking anything for being inflexible and outdated.

    Let's be clear here, I'm not defending Republicans as a political party.

    mrdobalina on
  • FartacusFartacus __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    They vote for democrats because democrats push government sanctioned revenge and biggoted policies against people that had nothing to do with their problems. That is the purpose of the Democratic party.

    Haha, what? I'm really not even sure how to respond to this in an in-depth fashion because it's so baffling.

    Also, I'm sorry, but wrongs don't exist in the past. That's the bitch of privilege and inequality that most people of privilege don't fucking understand:

    Privilege is when you have unearned advantages in society that come at the expense of other groups. The problem with privilege is that in order to obtain equality, the people who have privilege need to sacrifice it. You can't have equality just by bringing everyone up to the same level. Integrating women into the workplace means men have more people to compete with. It means you're not free to grab your secretary's ass and act and speak however you want, even if it hurts other people. Allocating federal funds to the poor or minority groups means that not as much goes to tax breaks for the wealthy or for white people.

    It's not "sanctioned revenge" -- it's that these problems still exist and you can't alleviate the suffering of oppressed people without diminishing the privileges of the entitled.

    Fartacus on
  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    ntsf suffers from a chronic case of persecuted white boy complex

    I'm not persecuted at all. Things are rather nice for me. And I don't mind supporting the biggotry of the left, it pays my bills. Nor do I care if their policies fuck over some shmuck in western VA. I also love end of year bonuses I can get and faster promotions by making sure my staff is the most diverse! Hell, that's how ousted one of my old bosses :mrgreen: and took over.

    But I won't kid myself that the biggotry of the left, and the rewards offered for engaging in it make even the radical elements of tea party look tolerant. I'll just reap the rewards for it. Because honestly, hurray for me.

    Ultimately those policies help me as a well off white asshole. And they let me game the system, and they give me a pay check completely funded by people even more well off. That it's fucking over other people doesn't impact me, because I'm not the one getting screwed in it.

    Though since I admit that truth about the Democratic party, I can at least sleep well. Because even though I'm voting for what could be described as a hate organization, and actively screwing people with that vote, I'm not lying to myself about it. And at least I'm honest that while it's a horrible organization, in the end my vote for the left is all about me getting mine, and I don't care who it screws over as long as I get it.

    And that's the honest truth of the matter.

    If the right offered me a way to suck more things from more people and improve my lot even more. I'd sell out and vote for those crooked suckers in a second. Even if they banned abortions and promised to kill off the gays. Just as long as it was better for me.

    nstf on
  • FartacusFartacus __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    A hate organization? Are you an insane person?

    Fartacus on
  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    Fartacus wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    Seriously? You wrote that with a straight face? Perhaps you were trying to be ironic?

    I'm sorry, do you want to look at who votes for Democrats, exactly?

    Because here are some groups who vote for Democrats:

    The poor
    People of color
    LGBTQ people
    Young people
    Women
    The unemployed
    Union members
    Members of religious minorities

    So, uh, maybe you should stop listening to Rush and actually look at the party demographics before being a know-it-all?

    They vote for democrats because democrats push government sanctioned revenge and biggoted policies against people that had nothing to do with their problems. That is the purpose of the Democratic party.

    Young people vote for it out of some twisted sense of holier than thou mentality and the fact that they feel good about government sanctioned revenge. Older people vote for it because they realize they've made it to the point in life their kid won't be impacted by said policies and get to stand on their soap box about doing it.

    Me, I vote for it because the biggoted policies of the left don't impact me, and I could give fuck all about a poor middle class Joe. Plus they shove other peoples money in my direction and my line of work relies on stroking the ego's of bleeding hearts at the expense of average Joes, so it's purely economical. But I don't kid myself that the party I've voted for the most makes some hate groups look pretty tame. I also don't kid myself that I vote Democratic most of the time because of "hurray for me and fuck everybody else" and that reason alone. And frankly, I have no issues screwing people over to put a buck or more in my pocket, and a vote to the left lets me do this.

    Oh God this post is so full of wrong and bullshit.

    I love how "bigoted" is goose-whistle for "helping someone else."

    DoctorArch on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    ntsf suffers from a chronic case of persecuted white boy complex

    I'm not persecuted at all. Things are rather nice for me. And I don't mind supporting the biggotry of the left, it pays my bills. Nor do I care if their policies fuck over some shmuck in western VA. I also love end of year bonuses I can get and faster promotions by making sure my staff is the most diverse! Hell, that's how ousted one of my old bosses :mrgreen: and took over.

    But I won't kid myself that the biggotry of the left, and the rewards offered for engaging in it make even the radical elements of tea party look tolerant. I'll just reap the rewards for it. Because honestly, hurray for me.

    Ultimately those policies help me as a well off white asshole. And they let me game the system, and they give me a pay check completely funded by people even more well off. That it's fucking over other people doesn't impact me, because I'm not the one getting screwed in it.

    Though since I admit that truth about the Democratic party, I can at least sleep well. Because even though I'm voting for what could be described as a hate organization, and actively screwing people with that vote, I'm not lying to myself about it. And at least I'm honest that while it's a horrible organization, in the end my vote for the left is all about me getting mine, and I don't care who it screws over as long as I get it.

    And that's the honest truth of the matter.

    If the right offered me a way to suck more things from more people and improve my lot even more. I'd sell out and vote for those crooked suckers in a second. Even if they banned abortions and promised to kill off the gays. Just as long as it was better for me.

    Wow, you're an incredibly terrible person. Your outlook on life borders on sociopathy.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    Fartacus wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    Seriously? You wrote that with a straight face? Perhaps you were trying to be ironic?

    I'm sorry, do you want to look at who votes for Democrats, exactly?

    Because here are some groups who vote for Democrats:

    The poor
    People of color
    LGBTQ people
    Young people
    Women
    The unemployed
    Union members
    Members of religious minorities

    So, uh, maybe you should stop listening to Rush and actually look at the party demographics before being a know-it-all?

    They vote for democrats because democrats push government sanctioned revenge and biggoted policies against people that had nothing to do with their problems. That is the purpose of the Democratic party.

    Young people vote for it out of some twisted sense of holier than thou mentality and the fact that they feel good about government sanctioned revenge. Older people vote for it because they realize they've made it to the point in life their kid won't be impacted by said policies and get to stand on their soap box about doing it.

    Me, I vote for it because the biggoted policies of the left don't impact me, and I could give fuck all about a poor middle class Joe. Plus they shove other peoples money in my direction and my line of work relies on stroking the ego's of bleeding hearts at the expense of average Joes, so it's purely economical. But I don't kid myself that the party I've voted for the most makes some hate groups look pretty tame. I also don't kid myself that I vote Democratic most of the time because of "hurray for me and fuck everybody else" and that reason alone. And frankly, I have no issues screwing people over to put a buck or more in my pocket, and a vote to the left lets me do this.

    This is shameful, even for you.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    Fartacus wrote: »
    A hate organization? Are you an insane person?

    The Democratic party endorses government vengence and biggoted policies, it is by default the largest hate group in the US.

    However, I have no problem with supporting either as long as it turns into job stability and more cash in my pocket. Because in the end, I only care about me. So personal greed has driven my votes, and I've voted for the left, despite it's issues. Because in the end, it was better for my bottom line and I don't care that it hurts people.

    And really, even if the party enacted policies that would kill people, and Rush was right about killing grandma and death camps, I'd still vote for them. Because they give me job security and more cash.

    nstf on
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    ntsf suffers from a chronic case of persecuted white boy complex

    I'm not persecuted at all. Things are rather nice for me. And I don't mind supporting the biggotry of the left, it pays my bills. Nor do I care if their policies fuck over some shmuck in western VA. I also love end of year bonuses I can get and faster promotions by making sure my staff is the most diverse! Hell, that's how ousted one of my old bosses :mrgreen: and took over.

    But I won't kid myself that the biggotry of the left, and the rewards offered for engaging in it make even the radical elements of tea party look tolerant. I'll just reap the rewards for it. Because honestly, hurray for me.

    Ultimately those policies help me as a well off white asshole. And they let me game the system, and they give me a pay check completely funded by people even more well off. That it's fucking over other people doesn't impact me, because I'm not the one getting screwed in it.

    Though since I admit that truth about the Democratic party, I can at least sleep well. Because even though I'm voting for what could be described as a hate organization, and actively screwing people with that vote, I'm not lying to myself about it. And at least I'm honest that while it's a horrible organization, in the end my vote for the left is all about me getting mine, and I don't care who it screws over as long as I get it.

    And that's the honest truth of the matter.

    If the right offered me a way to suck more things from more people and improve my lot even more. I'd sell out and vote for those crooked suckers in a second. Even if they banned abortions and promised to kill off the gays. Just as long as it was better for me.

    who are the democrats screwing over?

    what government vengeance?

    what bigoted policies?

    Irond Will on
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  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I've never had a bad experience with a labor union. In fact, I frequently save more money hiring union labor than I do going through a private contractor or a sub-contractor -- I just call the local union steward, tell them generally what I'm looking for, and ask if they can give me the names of five carpenters (or whatever) who might be looking for work.

    The last time I did this, I started by calling non-union construction company just to get a baseline bid. They offered to do my job for $300. I called the United Brotherhood of Carpenters local later that afternoon and got the phone numbers for about ten self-employed union-member carpenters. I had to place a few phone calls to find someone who had free time in his schedule, but when I finally found one who could come out, he was happy to do it in a single afternoon for $80.

    I rounded it out to an an even $100 because he was still saving me $200. And because he'd had to apprentice with the union before he could join I knew he had the experience to get the job done.

    SammyF on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »
    ntsf suffers from a chronic case of persecuted white boy complex

    I'm not persecuted at all. Things are rather nice for me. And I don't mind supporting the biggotry of the left, it pays my bills. Nor do I care if their policies fuck over some shmuck in western VA. I also love end of year bonuses I can get and faster promotions by making sure my staff is the most diverse! Hell, that's how ousted one of my old bosses :mrgreen: and took over.

    But I won't kid myself that the biggotry of the left, and the rewards offered for engaging in it make even the radical elements of tea party look tolerant. I'll just reap the rewards for it. Because honestly, hurray for me.

    Ultimately those policies help me as a well off white asshole. And they let me game the system, and they give me a pay check completely funded by people even more well off. That it's fucking over other people doesn't impact me, because I'm not the one getting screwed in it.

    Though since I admit that truth about the Democratic party, I can at least sleep well. Because even though I'm voting for what could be described as a hate organization, and actively screwing people with that vote, I'm not lying to myself about it. And at least I'm honest that while it's a horrible organization, in the end my vote for the left is all about me getting mine, and I don't care who it screws over as long as I get it.

    And that's the honest truth of the matter.

    If the right offered me a way to suck more things from more people and improve my lot even more. I'd sell out and vote for those crooked suckers in a second. Even if they banned abortions and promised to kill off the gays. Just as long as it was better for me.

    who are the democrats screwing over?

    White Folks

    Seriously, just stop talking, nstf. You sound like you went to stormfront, tasted the kool-aid, and then stirred in more idiocy because it wasn't stupid enough for you.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    wow nstf seek help

    nexuscrawler on
  • FartacusFartacus __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    Fartacus wrote: »
    A hate organization? Are you an insane person?

    The Democratic party endorses government vengence and biggoted policies, it is by default the largest hate group in the US.

    Can you actually elaborate on this, or are you going to keep stating this absolutely insane position as if it doesn't need some warrants/evidence for its claims?

    Fartacus on
  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fartacus wrote: »
    nstf wrote: »
    Fartacus wrote: »
    A hate organization? Are you an insane person?

    The Democratic party endorses government vengence and biggoted policies, it is by default the largest hate group in the US.

    Can you actually elaborate on this, or are you going to keep stating this absolutely insane position as if it doesn't need some warrants/evidence for its claims?

    See my sig. It's not going to happen. A lot of us would be happy to debate with him, but (to shameless quote another poster) this is Debate and Discourse, not Scream and Fling Shit.

    DoctorArch on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Can we please stop engaging him?

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    Middle class people and the poor. Also a lot of their aid organizations go through the world bank which actively fucks over third world countries in the process, but hey it creates non profit... err middle class welfare jobs in the process. Yeah, they screw white people over as well, that's par for the course. But some of the damage caused on the global scale is pretty impressive as well. Though I can lump other groups into that issue as well.

    Though in the end, that same damage, and to an extent causing it, puts money in my pocket. So, game on. Along the same lines I didn't have a problem with "the war" because it was paying my bills.

    If their policies negatively impacted me, I wouldn't vote for them. But they don't. And I don't care that much if some other person gets chucked under the bus.

    My only gripe is the self indulgent BS of progressives. Though I feel the same way about the fundies on the right, even if they aren't as batshit and can't compete in the holier than thou field.

    But in the end I've held my nose and voted for the left, because it's best for me economically. And I ultimately had to ask a question. Do I mind voting for a hate group, and do I mind that lives are ruined? And the answer was, as long as it brings in job stability and a paycheck, no, I honestly don't. Because it really isn't my issue.

    And while I agree with many social views on the left, gay rights, abortion, et all. I'd honestly be completely willing to throw all that under the bus and dance on it's grave if the price was right. The rights failed to make a compelling offer. Though I'd wager that if I worked in say finance, I'd have already buried those views and cashed in.

    So I guess if I change career fields, my vote will change in a nano second. And honestly, I'm ok with that.

    nstf on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Patiently awaiting evidence of a single fucking claim nstf has made.

    Its some impressive cognitive dissonance for him to blast progressives and liberals for pursuing their own goals and then openly state he only votes for who makes him more money.
    And while I agree with many social views on the left, gay rights, abortion, et all. I'd honestly be completely willing to throw all that under the bus and dance on it's grave if the price was right.

    And this is why you're a horrible person.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Oh, well when you put it like that, nstf, it makes perfect -

    Nah, you're still a horrible human being.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited September 2010
    I would probably be making more money and have a more stable job if the right were in power again, since i work in defense contracting. i can't being myself to vote for them though.

    so let me make sure i understand what you're saying:

    1) the democrats route aid through the world bank

    2) which is inefficient and provides jobs to a internationalist nonprofit sector

    3) they should instead be routing foreign aid through X organization

    4) ...

    5) therefore they are guilty of government vengeance, bigoted policies and are basically a hate organization

    i am missing some information at step 4 here i think

    i'm not asking this to be argumentative - i'm actually curious as to why you hold the opinions you do.

    Irond Will on
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  • FartacusFartacus __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    I know it's generally bad to psychoanalyze other posters

    But it seems like you (ntsf) have a huge vendetta against anyone who thinks they're doing something out of altruism or empathy, which in turn seems like a big rationalization for your incredibly (openly) selfish worldview.

    Fartacus on
  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    I would probably be making more money and have a more stable job if the right were in power again, since i work in defense contracting. i can't being myself to vote for them though.

    so let me make sure i understand what you're saying:

    1) the democrats route aid through the world bank

    2) which is inefficient and provides jobs to a internationalist nonprofit sector

    3) they should instead be routing foreign aid through X organization

    4) ...

    5) therefore they are guilty of government vengeance, bigoted policies and are basically a hate organization

    i am missing some information at step 4 here i think

    i'm not asking this to be argumentative - i'm actually curious as to why you hold the opinions you do.

    I go for a bid for a government contract. Before I even go for that bid here is what I do. First I higher protected classes. I get points for this, actual points. The fact that I'm a vet and can shoe horn veterans status into it adds to it. So even if my staff is worse, and I'm over priced, I have a better shot at it than my competitors.

    That right there is flagrant government sanctioned discrimination. Of the highest scale. But hey, it works for me because in the end I win and some other fuck loses. It's also rather public who's on who's staff, so it's really easy to fire people off and then rehire to beat the suckers to the punch.

    Next, the money that's pulled is spent on BS shit. But shit, if someone wants to pay 10s of millions so we can dream up a solution to malaria only to come up with nets, and then bill the tax payers for it (where is where most aid money comes from) and get some photo ops out of it, who cares. Though you'd probably be shocked to see the overhead rate on this spent on state side staff compared to how much actually gets spent overseas (hint, it's a racket). And by the way, for debt relief, would you like to talk the world bank which will turn it into a profit making scheme for corporations.

    And that's how life works. But hey, the system is gameable, but then again most are. The key is to stack the cards in your favor and walk off with as much of the pot as you can. And in this sense, liberal politics have been very kind to me. Not so much on the people I trampled to get where I am today, and the amount of "good" they actually produce is a farce at best. Only the utterly naive would believe anything else. The people at the top just admit it's a trick and a scheme.
    But it seems like you (ntsf) have a huge vendetta against anyone who thinks they're doing something out of altruism or empathy, which in turn seems like a big rationalization for your incredibly (openly) selfish worldview.

    I dislike dishonest people and the naive. And anybody that actually tells you that liberal policies are anything but discriminatory nonsense made to enrich those at the top at the expense of everybody else is one of the two.

    I also dislike broken systems and despise inefficiency and corruption, which is what these policies directly produce.

    But despite all that, I have no problem enabling it with the caveat that it helps me out. Because in the end I've got bills to pay and a retirement to think about. I also like nice food and expensive toys. And I've found exploiting these systems to be an excellent way of getting those things.

    In life, there is always money to be made fixing a problem, and always some bleeding heart willing to rig the game on how to get it out of a warped sense of social justice, and another sucker willing to fund it. The key is being king pig at the trough.

    nstf on
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    But it seems like you (ntsf) have a huge vendetta against anyone who thinks they're doing something out of altruism or empathy, which in turn seems like a big rationalization for your incredibly (openly) selfish worldview.

    I dislike dishonest people and the naive. And anybody that actually tells you that liberal policies are anything but discriminatory nonsense made to enrich those at the top at the expense of everybody else is one of the two.

    I also dislike broken systems and despise inefficiency and corruption, which is what these policies directly produce.

    But despite all that, I have no problem enabling it with the caveat that it helps me out. Because in the end I've got bills to pay and a retirement to think about. I also like nice food and expensive toys. And I've found exploiting these systems to be an excellent way of getting those things.

    In life, there is always money to be made fixing a problem, and always some bleeding heart willing to rig the game on how to get it out of a warped sense of social justice, and another sucker willing to fund it. The key is being king pig at the trough.

    So, you dislike broken systems, despise inefficiency and corruption, but only when it doesn't directly benefit you and your grandiose sense of self.

    coughsociopathcough

    SammyF on
  • FartacusFartacus __BANNED USERS
    edited September 2010
    nstf wrote: »
    That right there is flagrant government sanctioned discrimination. Of the highest scale.

    So, you don't like affirmative action? That's your argument? That affirmative action is equal to hate groups? That the open and organized persecution of minority groups on the belief that they are subhuman, or at least deserving of oppression and punishment, is equal to affirmative action?

    That's -- on its face -- fucking insane. There's also the part where affirmative action is meant as a corrective force counter-weighting against prevailing norms of discrimination. Like, if you can conceptualize prejudicial discrimination as something in which one racks up discrimination points over the course of a lifetime, by the time we get to non-profit hiring, most people who grew up a person of color, a woman, poor, etc, or any combination of the above already had a whole shitload of points. And the middle-class white dude competing with them for the job has 0 points. So, by all rights, he already has had way more advantages to get to this point. If the government gives a little extra weight to diversity, then I guess the white guy's total ends up at like, 10, whereas the black woman who got the job is still carrying around, like, 1,200.

    It's a simplistic way to conceptualize things, but it gets the point across, I think. It also does highlight the problems of affirmative action -- not everyone experiences discrimination the same way, or to the same extent. How do you address gaps of income within minority groups, etc?

    But at the end of the day, it's useful on the whole, and I know for a fact that diversity is not the sole criteria by which these things are awarded -- as someone who, like you, works in the progressive sphere in DC (and is a middle-class white guy). The disadvantage that white guys face as a result of affirmative action is so miniscule compared to structural problems in our society that penalize oppressed groups that complaining about it is beyond ignorant. If you're white, male, straight, and middle-class, and you lose out to someone slightly less qualified because of affirmative action? Well, fuck you, you didn't deserve it. With all your advantages you should have been way more qualified, or you should stop bitching.
    But hey, it works for me because in the end I win and some other fuck loses.

    Again, you're leaving out the part where without policies that correct for discrimination, the oppressed groups lose. But that's the norm, and it's pervasive societally to the point where most privileged people don't notice their own privilege -- whereas affirmative action is explicit and purposeful, and therefore easier to see -- so who cares, right? It's just the way things are.
    Though you'd probably be shocked to see the overhead rate on this spent on state side staff compared to how much actually gets spent overseas (hint, it's a racket). And by the way, for debt relief, would you like to talk the world bank which will turn it into a profit making scheme for corporations.

    Most progressives would agree with you on this. Leftists tend to push for correcting this situation. To the extent that the GOP wants no aid, I guess they're against you, but there was once a more moderate GOP that propped up this order. I hate the IMF and the World Bank too -- so do most liberals. I mean, fair enough to criticize people in office on this one, but you also seem to be criticizing the activists and the people who work in the party apparatus.
    I dislike dishonest people and the naive.

    It must be nice to be able to discount, out-of-hand, the opinions of anyone who disagrees with you. I guess you do have that in common with the GOP.
    And anybody that actually tells you that liberal policies are anything but discriminatory nonsense made to enrich those at the top at the expense of everybody else is one of the two.

    This is totally batshit, given that the progressive reign from FDR to LBJ is the greatest flattening of the income distribution curve this nation has ever seen. The last 40 years have created huge inequality and enriched the very few -- but that's been 40 years of conservative stewardship of this country. And that's what their values openly support. That has nothing to do with Democrats or progressive ideology.

    We are and always have been the party that looks out for the poor, the middle class -- the working stiff and the unemployed alike. The GOP isn't. You seem to be basing this entire case off of foreign aid and affirmative action, which are tiny fragments of what either party is about, and in terms of policy have relatively small effects compared to, say, the entire fucking welfare state that is a result of the Democratic party.

    Your arguments are so myopic they're mind-blowing.

    Fartacus on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fartacus, I'd advise just writing off nstf as a lost cause. No amount of reason or facts can alter his rather ugly world view.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Fartacus wrote: »
    But at the end of the day, it's useful on the whole, and I know for a fact that diversity is not the sole criteria by which these things are awarded -- as someone who, like you, works in the progressive sphere in DC (and is a middle-class white guy). The disadvantage that white guys face as a result of affirmative action is so miniscule compared to structural problems in our society that penalize oppressed groups that complaining about it is beyond ignorant. If you're white, male, straight, and middle-class, and you lose out to someone slightly less qualified because of affirmative action? Well, fuck you, you didn't deserve it. With all your advantages you should have been way more qualified, or you should stop bitching.
    That's a bullshit argument. At its base, you're saying that an individual should be punished, or at least disadvantaged, based on the past actions of other people who happen to share that person's skin color.

    I don't see why it should be acceptable to anyone that someone does not get a job or a promotion based on the color of their skin.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The point fartacus was making is just by being white in this country you're already at an adherent advantage. So if one program gives minorities a slight leg up over you, you don't have much to complain about.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Fartacus wrote: »
    But at the end of the day, it's useful on the whole, and I know for a fact that diversity is not the sole criteria by which these things are awarded -- as someone who, like you, works in the progressive sphere in DC (and is a middle-class white guy). The disadvantage that white guys face as a result of affirmative action is so miniscule compared to structural problems in our society that penalize oppressed groups that complaining about it is beyond ignorant. If you're white, male, straight, and middle-class, and you lose out to someone slightly less qualified because of affirmative action? Well, fuck you, you didn't deserve it. With all your advantages you should have been way more qualified, or you should stop bitching.
    That's a bullshit argument. At its base, you're saying that an individual should be punished, or at least disadvantaged, based on the past actions of other people who happen to share that person's skin color.

    I don't see why it should be acceptable to anyone that someone does not get a job or a promotion based on the color of their skin.

    As a white person, this is a problem that you'll probably never face unless it's in your favor.

    Fuck, I need to find that cartoon about white privilege and tattoo it on the brains of people who make simplistic arguments against affirmative action.

    EDIT: And here it is:

    aconcisehistory.png

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    The point fartacus was making is just by being white in this country you're already at an adherent advantage. So if one program gives minorities a slight leg up over you, you don't have much to complain about.
    It's a dumb point, though. I've never oppressed anyone nor discriminated against a job applicant based on their race. In terms of America's spotty history of treating minorities fairly, I had no part in it.

    I'm applying for a job for the same reasons as the black guy interviewing after me- to pay my mortgage, take care of my kid and all the rest. I don't see the justice in using discrimination against a random person to make up for the wrongs of other people. What affirmative action does is shift the burden of redressing past societal injustices onto innocent parties.

    If a company discriminates, the government can pursue legal action. Except, I guess, if that discrimination is in the hiring process against Joe White Dude by way of affirmative action.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    mrdobalina wrote: »
    You actually believe that opposing party is against all those altruistic goals you think you're pursuing?

    Yes.

    Then you'll never get beyond basement-level reactionary political thinking. Congrats.

    So according to you, the Repiblican party is not actually against the idea that healthcare, equal opportunity, education, etc are human rights and it is the government's right and proper duty (as the instrument of the people) to make sure that all its citizens are provided these things regardless of income, social station, race, creed, sex, etc. And that some rich guys not getting to buy their fifth yacht is a small price to pay to achieve this goal.

    They just say they are because...

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Fartacus wrote: »
    But at the end of the day, it's useful on the whole, and I know for a fact that diversity is not the sole criteria by which these things are awarded -- as someone who, like you, works in the progressive sphere in DC (and is a middle-class white guy). The disadvantage that white guys face as a result of affirmative action is so miniscule compared to structural problems in our society that penalize oppressed groups that complaining about it is beyond ignorant. If you're white, male, straight, and middle-class, and you lose out to someone slightly less qualified because of affirmative action? Well, fuck you, you didn't deserve it. With all your advantages you should have been way more qualified, or you should stop bitching.
    That's a bullshit argument. At its base, you're saying that an individual should be punished, or at least disadvantaged, based on the past actions of other people who happen to share that person's skin color.

    I don't see why it should be acceptable to anyone that someone does not get a job or a promotion based on the color of their skin.

    As a white person, this is a problem that you'll probably never face unless it's in your favor.

    Fuck, I need to find that cartoon about white privilege and tattoo it on the brains of people who make simplistic arguments against affirmative action.

    Spoiler for size
    denial_is_so_white.png
    concise.png

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Yeah yeah, I've never oppressed anyone, that happened in the past, but don't mind me while I enjoy advantages conferred upon me by that past oppression.

    What an idiotic argument.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    The point fartacus was making is just by being white in this country you're already at an adherent advantage. So if one program gives minorities a slight leg up over you, you don't have much to complain about.
    It's a dumb point, though. I've never oppressed anyone nor discriminated against a job applicant based on their race. In terms of America's spotty history of treating minorities fairly, I had no part in it.

    I'm applying for a job for the same reasons as the black guy interviewing after me- to pay my mortgage, take care of my kid and all the rest. I don't see the justice in using discrimination against a random person to make up for the wrongs of other people. What affirmative action does is shift the burden of redressing past societal injustices onto innocent parties.

    If a company discriminates, the government can pursue legal action. Except, I guess, if that discrimination is in the hiring process against Joe White Dude by way of affirmative action.

    You don't understand what privilege consists of.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I thought that the point... that's not the word... the ideal? of affirmative action was to err on the side of the minority if two candidates are competing for the same spot, with essentially the same qualifications. Less qualified people should not be getting in over more qualified people.

    Loren Michael on
    2ezikn6.jpg
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    I thought that the point... that's not the word... the ideal? of affirmative action was to err on the side of the minority if two candidates are competing for the same spot, with essentially the same qualifications. Less qualified people should not be getting in over more qualified people.

    This is true, and the prevalence of affirmative action policies are greatly exaggerated.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    It's a dumb point, though. I've never oppressed anyone nor discriminated against a job applicant based on their race. In terms of America's spotty history of treating minorities fairly, I had no part in it.

    BUT YOU HAVE BEEN DISCRIMINATED FOR. FOR YOUR BENEFIT. IN YOUR FAVOR. YOU HAVE BEEN THE RECIPIENT OF DISCRIMINATION BASED ON RACE. DID YOU REJECT THOSE ILL GOTTEN GAINS?

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited September 2010
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    It's a dumb point, though. I've never oppressed anyone nor discriminated against a job applicant based on their race. In terms of America's spotty history of treating minorities fairly, I had no part in it.

    BUT YOU HAVE BEEN DISCRIMINATED FOR. FOR YOUR BENEFIT. IN YOUR FAVOR. YOU HAVE BEEN THE RECIPIENT OF DISCRIMINATION BASED ON RACE. DID YOU REJECT THOSE ILL GOTTEN GAINS?

    That seems like an interesting point.

    Loren Michael on
    2ezikn6.jpg
This discussion has been closed.