Banshees have more than literally double the dps, I think that qualifies as at least bonkers, if not insane
To be a little fair, they take twice as long to make and you can't make more than one at a time
Right, but think of it this way: mutas hit air and ground, they're very fast for moving and they have good response time to commands.
Banshees only hit ground, they're not quick and they're one of the 'laggier' air units and cost half again the food (apart from the infrastructure differences you already mentioned)
If banshees didn't do at least double the damage of mutas, they sure wouldn't make a whole lot of sense . The bolded, of course, is the key. Can you imagine banshees only doing the same amount of damage as mutas do to ground, but being comparatively slow and unwieldy and unable to hit air? Yikes!
for me, banshees are only worrisome when it comes to harass. cloak makes em such a huge pain, and can easily win a match if a terran player rushes them without being noticed.
not to say they're op or anything, it's just really really irritating.
It's the DPS that makes them a viable unit beyond that 'surprise cloak!' phase though and the main reason I make them. I'll happily admit my bias for banshees, as I don't think I've played a game of SC2 where I didn't make them, or at least intend to. Banshees are freakin' awesome.
Ugh, not the fucking ghost/templar thing again. Ghosts do not counter templar and templar do not counter ghosts. At most they bounce off each other.
Whining about ghosts so much that you don't build templar is just a stupid thing to do, and will cost you games because you still need templar whether they have ghosts or not.
What you have in italics is why EMP is ridiculous. As you said you NEED those templar to stand a chance, but EMP renders them completely useless. And feedback does not balance emp b/c emp outranges it. And is AOE. Your only real defense against ghosts is to split up all your templar, but 5-6 EMPs can cover an army anyway, so you still might lose all your energy. And I don't know what you're smoking but ghosts certainly counter templar. It requires skill and micro, but with enough of each there isn't a whole lot protoss can do about it. Which is why I've thought about hiding them in warp prisms.
No, EMP doesn't render them completely useless. You're just wrong. You're probably wrong because you do things like pile ten HTs where one EMP can get them (it's not exactly a surprise that he suicided ghosts to hit a pile of ten templar.) Watch some replays from good players and you'll notice they do things like the 'ridiculous' (as you put it) act of spreading their HTs among their army or at LEAST keeping them well back (you're gonna micro templar drops from warp prisms, but you can't spread out units?) They also take advantage of warp gates being able to warp HTs into a position where they can reinforce in a few seconds, storm ready.
You've already been told why feedback has a shorter range than EMP. Deal with it already.
So, yes, an EMP renders a templar useless. Saying that is about as meaningful as saying a feedback renders a ghost useless. Seriously, they're going to bring up 5-6 ghosts to EMP seperate templar, but you aren't going to be able to snipe any of those ghosts with your fighting units, or alternatively be storming the blocking bioball that's advancing with the ghosts? You aren't going to be able to outnumber the ghosts despite the build time and cost difference and travel times?
It still doesn't change my opinion on the matter, all of that is nice, but I still think the advantage is skewed toward the terran. Am I crying about it, no, just expressing my opinion on it. I only quoted this portion, b/c it has to do with my whole point...you often can't do anything about the ghosts, because of EMP's range. You say just to storm the his army before he EMP's, well EMP has much larger range than storm. My templar often get EMPed while I'm sitting there desperately trying to get off a storm. Or even worse, terran who scan my army, sight where the templar are, run in and EMP them. You literally can't react, b/c as soon as you have vision of the ghost he is already EMPing. I had a match where the terran did just that, would scan to pick off my observer (which sights for my army) then scan to sight templar then run in and EMP. Then he pushed, I had to retreat to a pylon reinforced with more HT's and he runs up and EMPs them right as they warp in.
And what terran has in ghost in the back with, as you said "a blocking bioball"? Every good terran I've played always advances with ghost first, EMP's either my army or HT's, then pushes in. Obviously I could keep my templar waaaaaay in teh back, but then he can just EMP my army and push in while I wait for my slow ass templar to get in position to storm. And it make me incredibly vulnerable to kiting as I can't pop off a storm real quick.
Any way we're pretty much going in circles so I'm done trying to argue.
what I find tough is that I can't have an obs everywhere. so what'll happen is they'll attack my mineral line, i'll defend, they'll move out, attack something else like a pylon or my gateways, i'll move my obs over, then they go back to my mineral line, etc. etc.
its just irritating as fuck, and by the time i've dealt with it, there's a terran bioball or mech train or mass something that's knocking on my front door and i've been too distracted to properly expand or make units or whatever and i get smashed.
1 turret per mineral line? Man, how do you not get your actual infrastructure (depots and whatnot) picked off?
And marines cost money too . Either way, mutas force a monetary response for defense on every base you run, that generally (I find) exceeds the cost of the mutas themselves nicely.
Edit: Olorin, ghosts don't stop good players from using templar, and using them successfully. I'm gonna leave it at that, and I guess agree to disagree with you otherwise. BTW, If a terran DOESN'T go in bioball or tanking units first, jesus, blink and snipe the ghosts. Kapow.
(10:34:03 PM) O1: jeeeesus christ fuck terran
(10:34:14 PM) O1: I think I'm seriously going to quit playing this until they do something about this balance
(10:35:01 PM) O1: 99% of terran go for mass marines and marauders (their cheapest barracks units) which you can only beat as protoss by fast teching to a T3 unit because apparently that's what blizzard calls balanced
(10:35:17 PM) O1: if they do ANYTHING else you've wasted your fucking time and resources
(10:35:35 PM) O1: just played a 45 minute PvT where he did nothing but build siege tanks and missile turrets
(10:35:40 PM) tbspLap left the room (quit: Quit: Leaving).
(10:36:00 PM) O1: tried to break into his base from the front and had my ground army instapopped by 15 siege tanks
(10:36:11 PM) O1: tried to transition to air and got raped by missile turrets
(10:36:22 PM) O1: tried to fucking wait and build up a 200/200 army
(10:36:24 PM) O1: which i did
(10:36:24 PM) O1: twice
(10:36:30 PM) O1: and threw it against his fortress of bullshit
(10:36:33 PM) O1: and lost it
(10:36:34 PM) O1: twice
(10:36:48 PM) O1: couldn't scout him because of the turrets
(10:36:58 PM) O1: while he gets free scans the entire time to watch me transition back and forth
(10:37:12 PM) O1: I don't think blizzard ever even played this fucking game
arhghghghgh so angry
I could've won the game, it was my fault I didn't, but the mere fact that it's so goddamn easy for T to wall up on any map with a choke to their natural is infuriating. the only way I know how to beat a terran player is to wait for him to make a move and then counterpush, and if they don't do that (and make turrets) I'm left completely in the dark.
Resources are resources, and provided your don't commit and lose the mutas, you don't actually lose the 500 gas whereas his base defense will never actually be able to move in and engage you (unless he purely goes marines, which is a bad idea.)
Ego on
Erik
0
TIFunkaliciousKicking back inNebraskaRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
holy crap blizzard dl still isn't getting this patch AGGHHGHGHH
edit
deciding to stop practicing and waiting for a favorable patch is not a way to improve
1 turret per mineral line? Man, how do you not get your actual infrastructure (depots and whatnot) picked off?
And marines cost money too . Either way, mutas force a monetary response for defense on every base you run, that generally (I find) exceeds the cost of the mutas themselves nicely.
Edit: Olorin, ghosts don't stop good players from using templar, and using them successfully. I'm gonna leave it at that, and I guess agree to disagree with you otherwise. BTW, If a terran DOESN'T go in bioball or tanking units first, jesus, blink and snipe the ghosts. Kapow.
And they don't stop me from using them either. I still do, it just seems like EMP shuts them down so easily, which is just going back to my original argument. I only posted again b/c of the blink comment, I specifically mentioned how as soon as the ghost comes within vision he is already casting EMP (I watched a replay from my perspective and as soon as my army could see the ghost, the EMP was already in the air). I have an observer in front of my army but he kept scanning to pick them off. And I would really like to see some high level ghost v HT play, but unfortunately I just haven't really seen any (haven't been watching the GSL).
Just beat a 5rr where it would have been very close, but he stopped his roaches and lings to kill a probe I sent scouting at 6:15 or so. I had a stalker, 2 sentries and 5 zealots or so and warp gates was finishing just as that happened, so I got a few more sentries and used forcefield to hold while I warped in some zealots to kill his expansion with a proxy pylon. There was some more fighting but really it just took some sentries to really blunt that attack completely
I'm sure a better player could beat me with it, but its much harder IMO with a ramp to defend
Pro tip: you don't have to win right away, you just have to win eventually.
If he turtles, simply don't attack him.
this usually works ok, but i immediately think back to this game i had a few days ago where the terran turtled from his natural for 40 minutes and then rolled out with BCs and vikings and steamrolled through my 200 food gateway army. templar would have been nice but even then, how would I have known to make enough? He had so many BCs and I had no way of scouting.
Pro tip: you don't have to win right away, you just have to win eventually.
If he turtles, simply don't attack him.
yeah, I did that, for 30 minutes
seriously
I'm watching the replay now and honestly we both played like shit. there were a few points early that I could've won if I pushed, or kept to my push instead of retreating, and another point late game where if I just built more void rays and I would've killed him, but by that point I already had so much food taken up by gateway units and HTs that I couldn't even make enough without hitting the cap. I was just thrown by non-standard terran play and didn't really know what to do without the usual timing of "he attacked, he has less marines/marauders now, time to attack back"
lessons learned:
-use more hallucinated phoenixes to scout instead of keeping up on my same death spiral of losing
-scans are horseshit and always will be
-if I need to transition to air and already have too many units, transition to air anyway and use the useless units I do have to at least try to harass or something
I've decided I'm going to take a break from Protoss for a while and start playing Terran. Not because I think they're so OP that I'm going to instantly hit 1800 diamond, but because I'm obviously missing some fundamental ideas of what a Terran's build and options consist of, and however many weeks of watching replays and reading forums, I still don't have a clue unless it's textbook play. it's the only race I don't play at all (I played Z in beta, and still do in customs and team games), so maybe spending some time on the other side of the matchup will make me understand it better.
I'm having the hardest time in PvZ with fast pure-roach rushes. I've tried 2 gates, 1 gate and a robo, even no gas 3 gates. The no gas build fails because I need sentries to block the ramp. The other builds fail because while I block off the first wave, the second wave rolls up before my stalkers and/or immortals can kill the first, and eventually I'm out of sentry force fields and, thus, fucked. Cannons are likewise failing me, as they are fuck expensive and require me to sacrifice army size.
I think I've beaten one, but it was because he chickened out after seeing my single immortal and thus allowed me to build a decent army.
make a sentry or two, use FF, roll over them because they sacrificed a ton of drones for those roaches and lings while you kept making probes
I'm stuck somewhere between using FF and being able to roll over them. By the time FF is used up, I only have an army of like 7 units plus 2-3 sentries. 10 roaches just annihiliate me.
micro your stalkers better and the roaches won't touch them.
Jars on
0
eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
edited September 2010
Only really need 1~2 Missile Turrets in your main mineral line TvMutalisk.
You can keep the majority of your army at your natural/front and have a handful(~8) of Marines chasing the Mutalisks around if the Zerg only makes 5~8 of them. You don't need to one-sidedly obliterate the Mutalisks and since 8 Marines will roughly trade with 5 Mutalisks and two Turrets will keep them from from committing into your SCVs, thats all you really need. He's not going to harass where your army is sitting.
Most Zergs want to harass with the Mutalisks, not trade them for Marines and 400/0 for 500/500 is a terrible trade.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
I really, really wouldn't be comfortable with just two turrets, but I'll give it a shot to see how it goes, as I of course have marines anyhow.
But bear in mind, it's not just your main you need to guard, it's every expo too.
edit: to clarify, because you never know if a zerg is making some mutas to harass, or going for the critical mass (which seems more and more popular right now, even at really high levels of play.) Two turrets aren't enough for a mass, as you'll end up base trading when you go out to attack if your at-home D isn't enough to cope. Assuming you were confident zerg was only making 4-6 to harass, though, I don't see how 2 + 8 as you said would be a problem. But generally, if I see zerg start to field more than one or two mutas? I'll build about 5 turrets in my main and 3 per expo, plus marines, just to start.
The more turrets you make, the happier I am about my decision to go mutas.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
The more turrets you make, the less units you have to kill me with.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
Posts
Totally didn't come close to working, lol.
Luckily I recovered and won but only because i was playing a bronze
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Right, but think of it this way: mutas hit air and ground, they're very fast for moving and they have good response time to commands.
Banshees only hit ground, they're not quick and they're one of the 'laggier' air units and cost half again the food (apart from the infrastructure differences you already mentioned)
If banshees didn't do at least double the damage of mutas, they sure wouldn't make a whole lot of sense
not to say they're op or anything, it's just really really irritating.
It's the DPS that makes them a viable unit beyond that 'surprise cloak!' phase though and the main reason I make them. I'll happily admit my bias for banshees, as I don't think I've played a game of SC2 where I didn't make them, or at least intend to. Banshees are freakin' awesome.
5 turrets spread around the base is overkill.
All your other stuff is still fair game.
its just irritating as fuck, and by the time i've dealt with it, there's a terran bioball or mech train or mass something that's knocking on my front door and i've been too distracted to properly expand or make units or whatever and i get smashed.
And marines cost money too
Edit: Olorin, ghosts don't stop good players from using templar, and using them successfully. I'm gonna leave it at that, and I guess agree to disagree with you otherwise. BTW, If a terran DOESN'T go in bioball or tanking units first, jesus, blink and snipe the ghosts. Kapow.
uh oh gretorp got called a map hacker
arhghghghgh so angry
I could've won the game, it was my fault I didn't, but the mere fact that it's so goddamn easy for T to wall up on any map with a choke to their natural is infuriating. the only way I know how to beat a terran player is to wait for him to make a move and then counterpush, and if they don't do that (and make turrets) I'm left completely in the dark.
If he turtles, simply don't attack him.
Resources are resources, and provided your don't commit and lose the mutas, you don't actually lose the 500 gas whereas his base defense will never actually be able to move in and engage you (unless he purely goes marines, which is a bad idea.)
edit
deciding to stop practicing and waiting for a favorable patch is not a way to improve
The 1.1.1 patch you mean?
Sounds like fun
And they don't stop me from using them either. I still do, it just seems like EMP shuts them down so easily, which is just going back to my original argument. I only posted again b/c of the blink comment, I specifically mentioned how as soon as the ghost comes within vision he is already casting EMP (I watched a replay from my perspective and as soon as my army could see the ghost, the EMP was already in the air). I have an observer in front of my army but he kept scanning to pick them off. And I would really like to see some high level ghost v HT play, but unfortunately I just haven't really seen any (haven't been watching the GSL).
I'm sure a better player could beat me with it, but its much harder IMO with a ramp to defend
Also, w00t, 1st place in my Silver division
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
this usually works ok, but i immediately think back to this game i had a few days ago where the terran turtled from his natural for 40 minutes and then rolled out with BCs and vikings and steamrolled through my 200 food gateway army. templar would have been nice but even then, how would I have known to make enough? He had so many BCs and I had no way of scouting.
Y'all need to stop being so afraid of losing a few units to some towers.
edit: noooo it's halting at 70% wtf
yeah, I did that, for 30 minutes
seriously
I'm watching the replay now and honestly we both played like shit. there were a few points early that I could've won if I pushed, or kept to my push instead of retreating, and another point late game where if I just built more void rays and I would've killed him, but by that point I already had so much food taken up by gateway units and HTs that I couldn't even make enough without hitting the cap. I was just thrown by non-standard terran play and didn't really know what to do without the usual timing of "he attacked, he has less marines/marauders now, time to attack back"
lessons learned:
-use more hallucinated phoenixes to scout instead of keeping up on my same death spiral of losing
-scans are horseshit and always will be
-if I need to transition to air and already have too many units, transition to air anyway and use the useless units I do have to at least try to harass or something
I've decided I'm going to take a break from Protoss for a while and start playing Terran. Not because I think they're so OP that I'm going to instantly hit 1800 diamond, but because I'm obviously missing some fundamental ideas of what a Terran's build and options consist of, and however many weeks of watching replays and reading forums, I still don't have a clue unless it's textbook play. it's the only race I don't play at all (I played Z in beta, and still do in customs and team games), so maybe spending some time on the other side of the matchup will make me understand it better.
zerg random will basically be a 6 pool and some other kind of cheese
glad i 14 pooled
I think I've beaten one, but it was because he chickened out after seeing my single immortal and thus allowed me to build a decent army.
I'm stuck somewhere between using FF and being able to roll over them. By the time FF is used up, I only have an army of like 7 units plus 2-3 sentries. 10 roaches just annihiliate me.
You can keep the majority of your army at your natural/front and have a handful(~8) of Marines chasing the Mutalisks around if the Zerg only makes 5~8 of them. You don't need to one-sidedly obliterate the Mutalisks and since 8 Marines will roughly trade with 5 Mutalisks and two Turrets will keep them from from committing into your SCVs, thats all you really need. He's not going to harass where your army is sitting.
Most Zergs want to harass with the Mutalisks, not trade them for Marines and 400/0 for 500/500 is a terrible trade.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
But bear in mind, it's not just your main you need to guard, it's every expo too.
edit: to clarify, because you never know if a zerg is making some mutas to harass, or going for the critical mass (which seems more and more popular right now, even at really high levels of play.) Two turrets aren't enough for a mass, as you'll end up base trading when you go out to attack if your at-home D isn't enough to cope. Assuming you were confident zerg was only making 4-6 to harass, though, I don't see how 2 + 8 as you said would be a problem. But generally, if I see zerg start to field more than one or two mutas? I'll build about 5 turrets in my main and 3 per expo, plus marines, just to start.
Goddammit stig go play civ 5