I've found 3 warp gate stargate is not too bad, spending your money on mainly your gateway units, and building up the voids, poking at your enemy to "force a defensive posture" while you expand. As long as you keep the voids alive, you can push from 2 fronts with critical mass of 4-5 VRs.
Then again, I really have no idea what im doing most of the time.
when do you drop your stargate/when is your first VR up, and are we talking a "normalish" 4 gate open, with decent econ and a decent gate army already up?
"I'm gonna sit on my one base and make only Void Rays and hope that you respond incorrectly" is a specific use of VRs and if that's pretty much all you want to do then cannons can't hurt. A good player will see the wall + cannons and prepare for VRs, but they'd probably not fall to that build anyway.
It's perfectly possible to incorporate VRs into a normal build with no cannons, but I feel that's a very different type of thing and is probably not something you're going to see poor players pull off well. Phoenixes in PvT are almost standard, for example, and they're almost as gas-expensive as VRs.
You can VR harass perfectly well with one stargate without completely sacrificing your army. And I'm not simply talking about sending your VRs in along with the main attack force.
It's a harassment strategy that allows the player to make the opponent feel too uncomfortable to properly counter attack, make them overreact and build a shitload of marines/static defenses, allow the protoss player to comfortably expand, and then tech to something else to counter-counter. I see it done all the time. I used to do it in my own Silverish newb way. It doesn't require a huge wall or two Stargates. Just a little scouting and some timely harass.
If you don't believe me, look up the McSnuggles videos I mentioned. He's probably floating around here somewhere if you can't find 'em. I just watched them last night. Good example of what I'm talking about from a Diamond player. I don't recall much walling beyond Gateway/Cybercore and a few units at his ramp.
You're pretty much agreeing with me. I'm saying that the "wall off and mass VRs off 2 Stargates" idea is a separate thing from the "I build some VRs but otherwise am playing normally" idea. The latter is more difficult to pull off, which is why people probably see the former more often.
bye forgoing Warp Gate Research, and one sentry, you've got your gas for your first startport. you want to be pumping from 2 stars, so you need 300 gas just to get the structs up.
That's your problem right there. Trying to pump voidrays from two starports on one base. Of course you can't support anything else. Pumping voidrays from one stargate on one base on the other hand....you can actually support gateway units. Whether or not you think this is a viable build over massing nothing but voidrays is another matter entirely.
Lately, I've completely changed my game up and no longer try to tech while on one base(most toss tech is way too gas intensive). I wait till I expand and then chose a tech route. (The exception to this is an early robo for observers).
My suggestion was just to get to a critical amount of SGs quickly. I've never had to sacrifice econ for it, and have had to retreat to an expand and 4-gate, and prbly a robo off of it. Yes, what i described is nearly all in.
---
now yours seems different. when is 2nd gas, when is starport?
i wonder if you could modify carriers to shoot carriers and then loop it so the carriers shoot carriers and more carriers and goes on until your starcraft explodes
Which is the most useless unit: Carriers, Mothership or Archons?
I'm really gonna have to go w/ Mothership.
I miss recalling Carriers with their interceptors still out form SC:BW.
You'd get like 36 little interceptors tearing across the entire map to get back to their mommy.
It was also a greatly inefficient way of scouting late-game!
i wonder if you could modify carriers to shoot carriers and then loop it so the carriers shoot carriers and more carriers and goes on until your starcraft explodes
Which is the most useless unit: Carriers, Mothership or Archons?
I'm really gonna have to go w/ Mothership.
Archons are actually pretty damn good and I think people will change their opinion about them eventually.
The Mothership is kinda shitty but Vortex + Colossus can destroy like 100 food in one volley so I think it's out of the running.
Carriers have almost no purpose, so I'd say they're the clear winner here.
You're pretty much agreeing with me. I'm saying that the "wall off and mass VRs off 2 Stargates" idea is a separate thing from the "I build some VRs but otherwise am playing normally" idea. The latter is more difficult to pull off, which is why people probably see the former more often.
You're pretty much agreeing with me. I'm saying that the "wall off and mass VRs off 2 Stargates" idea is a separate thing from the "I build some VRs but otherwise am playing normally" idea. The latter is more difficult to pull off, which is why people probably see the former more often.
Gotcha. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
i find the discussion wonderful.
what time is your like 3rd VR out/4th VR started? if theres somewhere that already has these answers, it would be neat...
I've found 3 warp gate stargate is not too bad, spending your money on mainly your gateway units, and building up the voids, poking at your enemy to "force a defensive posture" while you expand. As long as you keep the voids alive, you can push from 2 fronts with critical mass of 4-5 VRs.
Then again, I really have no idea what im doing most of the time.
when do you drop your stargate/when is your first VR up, and are we talking a "normalish" 4 gate open, with decent econ and a decent gate army already up?
Ugh, specifics. I think I like to drop the stargate after the second gate is up, and warpgate research. depends on my comfort level / how much attention im paying. I get red biked very eaisly. I like to maintain a decent econ and warpgat earmy, so the voids dont exactly reach critical really fast or anything, but the harass can come somewhat early.
You're pretty much agreeing with me. I'm saying that the "wall off and mass VRs off 2 Stargates" idea is a separate thing from the "I build some VRs but otherwise am playing normally" idea. The latter is more difficult to pull off, which is why people probably see the former more often.
Gotcha. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
Civility cannot solve this. Only a Grudge Match can!
I thought it was pretty much common acceptance that a single base can support 3 gateways plus 1 robo/stargate. There is no reason to go double stargate/robo off of one base.
I find Carriers do better against large groups of units due to their range and enemy forces targeting the interceptors. But I also only really use them in lik 4v4s where I have time to get a Carrier fleet + Mothership.
I can't wait to see the stuff people pulled for this week's Funday Monday. I had this idea of going straight for the mothership rush -> Mass recall into enemy base (with all units including the carrier) -> destroy opponent's nexus/cc -> and top it off by expanding at his main.
Unfortunately, I didn't have much time to play in the past week. I figure that would have been pretty funny if done right.
Mosez on
Nintendo Network ID: Stormblessed
Xbox Live: Mosez604
I've found 3 warp gate stargate is not too bad, spending your money on mainly your gateway units, and building up the voids, poking at your enemy to "force a defensive posture" while you expand. As long as you keep the voids alive, you can push from 2 fronts with critical mass of 4-5 VRs.
Then again, I really have no idea what im doing most of the time.
when do you drop your stargate/when is your first VR up, and are we talking a "normalish" 4 gate open, with decent econ and a decent gate army already up?
Ugh, specifics. I think I like to drop the stargate after the second gate is up, and warpgate research. depends on my comfort level / how much attention im paying. I get red biked very eaisly. I like to maintain a decent econ and warpgat earmy, so the voids dont exactly reach critical really fast or anything, but the harass can come somewhat early.
sorry. just seeing what can be reasonbly executed and when. i'd make the same assumptions - warpgates first, good econ, when do we hit mass with VRs? ... questions like that.. I mean, Ive got my Linear algebra book upstairs, but ...
I didn't really get a chance to try Funday Monday, but I did find that the Carrier build time is about the same amount of time it takes to charge Mass Recall with a Mothership, so when your carriers get done you just warp them to your fleet.
You're pretty much agreeing with me. I'm saying that the "wall off and mass VRs off 2 Stargates" idea is a separate thing from the "I build some VRs but otherwise am playing normally" idea. The latter is more difficult to pull off, which is why people probably see the former more often.
Gotcha. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
i find the discussion wonderful.
what time is your like 3rd VR out/4th VR started? if theres somewhere that already has these answers, it would be neat...
The two approaches really have different goals. Your approach relies on killing him, or at least doing significant damage, with the Void Rays (and surprise is a part of that). The harrass-oriented approach basically relies on the fact that the opponent has to do something once you've built a Void Ray or two. It's not the threat of the sun being blotted out; it's the threat of a couple of VRs being unaccounted-for. The opponent can make Marines/Hydras/Turrets/Cannons to handle the VRs, which the Protoss then exploits (There's a Daily where White-Ra builds a couple of Void Rays in a PvT to force Marines, which he then splits apart with Chargelots). And if they don't build those things? Those couple of VRs then do incredible damage.
edit: I'm not sure if it's true, but someone said that Chris Sigaty is an idiot PR guy who once proudly claimed that you only need 2 HTs to form an Archon in SC2
The 1.1 patch began to address balance issues within Starcraft II. The changes seemed small – mostly changes to build times. But the community seems convinced that Starcraft II isn’t balanced yet, in particular, there’s a sense that the Zerg are underpowered. How do Blizzard respond?
“You can go up and read on the forums at any one time and there are a bunch of different theories about balance and imbalance. We’re being very cautious about making large swinging changes right now because at the highest level things are actually very strong.
hahaha there is like 1 zerg left in the GSL and they're doing horribly at the top of the ladder, what more proof does this guy possibly want?
I've got to thank this thread for pointing out Day9's videos, specifically the "Newbie Tuesday" thing. For some reason, the concept of "more units off less structures" eluded me until I saw that thing, and I've been able to get more units, much more quickly, as Protoss as a result.
I'm still not really playing real people a whole lot because it destroys my nerves, though.
Graviija on
0
MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
bye forgoing Warp Gate Research, and one sentry, you've got your gas for your first startport. you want to be pumping from 2 stars, so you need 300 gas just to get the structs up.
That's your problem right there. Trying to pump voidrays from two starports on one base. Of course you can't support anything else. Pumping voidrays from one stargate on one base on the other hand....you can actually support gateway units. Whether or not you think this is a viable build over massing nothing but voidrays is another matter entirely.
Lately, I've completely changed my game up and no longer try to tech while on one base(most toss tech is way too gas intensive). I wait till I expand and then chose a tech route. (The exception to this is an early robo for observers).
My suggestion was just to get to a critical amount of SGs quickly. I've never had to sacrifice econ for it, and have had to retreat to an expand and 4-gate, and prbly a robo off of it. Yes, what i described is nearly all in.
---
now yours seems different. when is 2nd gas, when is starport?
We're talking about two separate things. You were saying how you find it difficult to support voidrays and gateway units. You sacrifice gateway units in order to get out more voidrays faster. If you go just one stargate, you can still easily pump units from a few warpgates. Your first voidray doesn't even have to be slowed down. You just won't get as many of them. Now whether you think it is better to try and mass four as quickly as possible rather than just getting 1-2 with more zealots and stalkers is a different matter entirely and is game dependent.
If people try to wall off and go VRs, I usually build up like 4-6 zealots with a Warp Prism and go pay a visit to their mineral line ASAP
Yeah, but if they rush it, a voidray comes out about the same time as the warp prism. And you can still have a couple zealots, stalker, warpgates(researching), etc.
Fewer players plays zerg because..... they are underpowered? Seems like a chicken and egg thing to me. No one want to lose, playing zerg loses games... therefore fewer players plays zerg.
Spawn Larve should have a big icon and the queen will just spit in the nearest hatchery. I second that.
I'm interested to know that there will be seasons... so at some point in time the ladder and everything will be reset. Joe K, heres your chance to make Platnium!
edit: Also, the thread would more way slower if there's a lot less arguing around.
If people try to wall off and go VRs, I usually build up like 4-6 zealots with a Warp Prism and go pay a visit to their mineral line ASAP
Yeah, but if they rush it, a voidray comes out about the same time as the warp prism. And you can still have a couple zealots, stalker, warpgates(researching), etc.
really? huh
I would think gateway > cyber > robo > warp would go quicker because there's less gas restrictions than
gateway > cyber > stargate > voidray
like there's a big gas diff which would be the limiting factor, no?
If people try to wall off and go VRs, I usually build up like 4-6 zealots with a Warp Prism and go pay a visit to their mineral line ASAP
Yeah, but if they rush it, a voidray comes out about the same time as the warp prism. And you can still have a couple zealots, stalker, warpgates(researching), etc.
Early poking with stalkers can counter a fast void ray. They have to give it up or lose their wall, if a void pops, just run away with stalkers and build more as you retreat
The idea is that you are gutting their production with the 4-5 zealots while you keep your Stalkers at home for if they decide to rush over.
Otherwise 1 VR is not going to kill your Zealots before they gut his mineral line or take down his pylons if it does happen to pop out. And if you have Warpgate researched by then, you could even warp in Stalkers into his base to cover for the VR if you really felt like it.
Mostly though the idea is to hopefully totally gut his workers and GG, or at least severely cripple his economy or food while you then build up the killing blow attack shortly after.
If people try to wall off and go VRs, I usually build up like 4-6 zealots with a Warp Prism and go pay a visit to their mineral line ASAP
Yeah, but if they rush it, a voidray comes out about the same time as the warp prism. And you can still have a couple zealots, stalker, warpgates(researching), etc.
really? huh
I would think gateway > cyber > robo > warp would go quicker because there's less gas restrictions than
gateway > cyber > stargate > voidray
like there's a big gas diff which would be the limiting factor, no?
should be, lets look at this:
Void ray from time of gateway starting:
65->50->60 seconds so 2:55 to get stargate out and another minute (minus chrono) for VR
So 3:55 700 minerals 300 gas for VR
Warp prism (the money to build zealots for warp in should be available by the time it gets there, and warp gate tech will finish by the time the prism does)
65->50->65 so 3:00 and then 50 seconds (minute chrono) for the prism.
So 3:50 at a cost of 750 minerals 150 gas to get the warp prism out
Basically the void ray will be out by the time you get there in all likelyhood, a simple ground attack can get in and shut that down before a VR can come out (because you basically can't build anything if you're VR rushing, where as with a warp prism rush it doesn't hurt you too bad to get a few zealots in the mean time)
If people try to wall off and go VRs, I usually build up like 4-6 zealots with a Warp Prism and go pay a visit to their mineral line ASAP
Yeah, but if they rush it, a voidray comes out about the same time as the warp prism. And you can still have a couple zealots, stalker, warpgates(researching), etc.
really? huh
I would think gateway > cyber > robo > warp would go quicker because there's less gas restrictions than
gateway > cyber > stargate > voidray
like there's a big gas diff which would be the limiting factor, no?
should be, lets look at this:
Void ray from time of gateway starting:
65->50->60 seconds so 2:55 to get stargate out and another minute (minus chrono) for VR
So 3:55 700 minerals 300 gas for VR
Warp prism (the money to build zealots for warp in should be available by the time it gets there, and warp gate tech will finish by the time the prism does)
65->50->65 so 3:00 and then 50 seconds (minute chrono) for the prism.
So 3:50 at a cost of 750 minerals 150 gas to get the warp prism out
Basically the void ray will be out by the time you get there in all likelyhood, a simple ground attack can get in and shut that down before a VR can come out (because you basically can't build anything if you're VR rushing, where as with a warp prism rush it doesn't hurt you too bad to get a few zealots in the mean time)
I'm actually gonna try what zerg does. Mine 150 gas and time it out so when cyber finishes i can robo/warp tech then move the probers back to minerals. From there I should be able to see the timing on warp tech/shuttle, what to chrono boost, and how many gateways I can squeeze in between.
maybe a one trick pony build but im bored so im just daydreaming of starcraft
Posts
I don't have a link, someone just said it in here
when do you drop your stargate/when is your first VR up, and are we talking a "normalish" 4 gate open, with decent econ and a decent gate army already up?
Joe's Stream.
You're pretty much agreeing with me. I'm saying that the "wall off and mass VRs off 2 Stargates" idea is a separate thing from the "I build some VRs but otherwise am playing normally" idea. The latter is more difficult to pull off, which is why people probably see the former more often.
edit:
My suggestion was just to get to a critical amount of SGs quickly. I've never had to sacrifice econ for it, and have had to retreat to an expand and 4-gate, and prbly a robo off of it. Yes, what i described is nearly all in.
---
now yours seems different. when is 2nd gas, when is starport?
Joe's Stream.
You'd get like 36 little interceptors tearing across the entire map to get back to their mommy.
It was also a greatly inefficient way of scouting late-game!
Origin: Viycktor
Archons are actually pretty damn good and I think people will change their opinion about them eventually.
The Mothership is kinda shitty but Vortex + Colossus can destroy like 100 food in one volley so I think it's out of the running.
Carriers have almost no purpose, so I'd say they're the clear winner here.
in sc1 people cannon'd up and then massed carriers
in sc2 people cannon up and mass void rays
so carriers lost their niche
they are just there for nostalgia and brand recognition really
like sony
Gotcha. Sorry for the misunderstanding!
i find the discussion wonderful.
what time is your like 3rd VR out/4th VR started? if theres somewhere that already has these answers, it would be neat...
Joe's Stream.
Ugh, specifics. I think I like to drop the stargate after the second gate is up, and warpgate research. depends on my comfort level / how much attention im paying. I get red biked very eaisly. I like to maintain a decent econ and warpgat earmy, so the voids dont exactly reach critical really fast or anything, but the harass can come somewhat early.
(I'm joking and way too tired)
Unfortunately, I didn't have much time to play in the past week. I figure that would have been pretty funny if done right.
Xbox Live: Mosez604
sorry. just seeing what can be reasonbly executed and when. i'd make the same assumptions - warpgates first, good econ, when do we hit mass with VRs? ... questions like that.. I mean, Ive got my Linear algebra book upstairs, but ...
Joe's Stream.
edit: I'm not sure if it's true, but someone said that Chris Sigaty is an idiot PR guy who once proudly claimed that you only need 2 HTs to form an Archon in SC2
the Protoss and Zerg have agreed to a peace treaty for 10 minutes. Terran has finished research on Communism!
gdi i need to get back to work
hahaha there is like 1 zerg left in the GSL and they're doing horribly at the top of the ladder, what more proof does this guy possibly want?
To make Zerg better give us a larvae spawn icon like protoss get for warpgates
Regards,
Trus
I'm still not really playing real people a whole lot because it destroys my nerves, though.
We're talking about two separate things. You were saying how you find it difficult to support voidrays and gateway units. You sacrifice gateway units in order to get out more voidrays faster. If you go just one stargate, you can still easily pump units from a few warpgates. Your first voidray doesn't even have to be slowed down. You just won't get as many of them. Now whether you think it is better to try and mass four as quickly as possible rather than just getting 1-2 with more zealots and stalkers is a different matter entirely and is game dependent.
Yeah, but if they rush it, a voidray comes out about the same time as the warp prism. And you can still have a couple zealots, stalker, warpgates(researching), etc.
Spawn Larve should have a big icon and the queen will just spit in the nearest hatchery. I second that.
I'm interested to know that there will be seasons... so at some point in time the ladder and everything will be reset. Joe K, heres your chance to make Platnium!
edit: Also, the thread would more way slower if there's a lot less arguing around.
Someone made a Risk map during beta. I would think making a Civ mod map for SC2 would be possible...
Watch Starcraft 2, or Play Starcraft 2, I guess... o_O O_o o_O O_o
really? huh
I would think gateway > cyber > robo > warp would go quicker because there's less gas restrictions than
gateway > cyber > stargate > voidray
like there's a big gas diff which would be the limiting factor, no?
Early poking with stalkers can counter a fast void ray. They have to give it up or lose their wall, if a void pops, just run away with stalkers and build more as you retreat
People have these things called jobs...
Otherwise 1 VR is not going to kill your Zealots before they gut his mineral line or take down his pylons if it does happen to pop out. And if you have Warpgate researched by then, you could even warp in Stalkers into his base to cover for the VR if you really felt like it.
Mostly though the idea is to hopefully totally gut his workers and GG, or at least severely cripple his economy or food while you then build up the killing blow attack shortly after.
trus is a bitter grumpy old man, it appears!
Maybe I should have said people other than me since I have 3 hours of classes a day and then I get to goof off
should be, lets look at this:
Void ray from time of gateway starting:
65->50->60 seconds so 2:55 to get stargate out and another minute (minus chrono) for VR
So 3:55 700 minerals 300 gas for VR
Warp prism (the money to build zealots for warp in should be available by the time it gets there, and warp gate tech will finish by the time the prism does)
65->50->65 so 3:00 and then 50 seconds (minute chrono) for the prism.
So 3:50 at a cost of 750 minerals 150 gas to get the warp prism out
Basically the void ray will be out by the time you get there in all likelyhood, a simple ground attack can get in and shut that down before a VR can come out (because you basically can't build anything if you're VR rushing, where as with a warp prism rush it doesn't hurt you too bad to get a few zealots in the mean time)
trus is a burden to society, it appears!
I'm actually gonna try what zerg does. Mine 150 gas and time it out so when cyber finishes i can robo/warp tech then move the probers back to minerals. From there I should be able to see the timing on warp tech/shuttle, what to chrono boost, and how many gateways I can squeeze in between.
maybe a one trick pony build but im bored so im just daydreaming of starcraft