It's games like this that make me want to say terran is OP. While I don't necessarily take that stance, I still think terran infantry is a bit too mobile, strong, cheap, and quick to build. Not any one of these one aspects is unbalanced, but I feel that combined it may be a bit too much. For example, in this game(I certainly made a lot of mistakes), I had double his workers, was ahead by 20-30 food for most of the game, yet my army couldn't do anything, even though he was floating 1000-1500 minerals pretty consistently. I mean christ I had double the workers, he floats a ton of money, but his army is still able to beat mine...this does not seem right. This is also the perfect example of why toss needs colossi/templar, but I never got them this game due to the constant pressure. I was always trying to warp in reinforcements and never felt like I had the window to tech. And before anyone yells forcefield his army...I was trying. But you can't when he won't sit still. He just slowly kept picking off zealots and I couldn't do anything.
i dunno if you wanted tips but i'm gonna give them to you anyway!
first, I'm gonna tell you straight up that zealots without charge against a marauder heavy army are absolutely, 100%, completely useless. If he's going heavy marauder/marine, you cannot attack him with zealots without charge. marauders smash stalkers and can kite zealots indefinitely so you're either going to need templar, collosi, or charge to deal with a bio army.
Unless you overwhelm with a quick 4gate or catch them off guard in some other way, I've found that early game TvP leans heavily towards the terran player due to marauders. They're just too good against normal zealots and stalkers, it's almost never worth attacking early if they have a comparable force. My advice would be to turtle up a bit until you can get to those higher tech trees. You didn't need those extra warpgates halfway through the game, 4gates should keep your army high for a very long time. It would have been wiser to either build more units, tech up, or build some cannons at that point.
In the end, he beat you by going pure bio without any tricks or fancy micro or anything. That's definitely beatable, you just need to play patiently. If it's clear he's going bio, know that an equal food army is just about always going to smash yours, especially on their home turf, without certain upgrades or higher tier units. Terran has the best defense in the game and superb offensive units. Don't fight battles unless you know (or think you know) that you'll come out on top.
so they have the best defense and the best offense? o_O
thats balanced. :P
all jokes aside you just gotta get temps and colossi for PvT. just like ZvT need banelings and infestors. its just a must.
It's games like this that make me want to say terran is OP. While I don't necessarily take that stance, I still think terran infantry is a bit too mobile, strong, cheap, and quick to build. Not any one of these one aspects is unbalanced, but I feel that combined it may be a bit too much. For example, in this game(I certainly made a lot of mistakes), I had double his workers, was ahead by 20-30 food for most of the game, yet my army couldn't do anything, even though he was floating 1000-1500 minerals pretty consistently. I mean christ I had double the workers, he floats a ton of money, but his army is still able to beat mine...this does not seem right. This is also the perfect example of why toss needs colossi/templar, but I never got them this game due to the constant pressure. I was always trying to warp in reinforcements and never felt like I had the window to tech. And before anyone yells forcefield his army...I was trying. But you can't when he won't sit still. He just slowly kept picking off zealots and I couldn't do anything.
this game looks a lot like my own PvT games, so I thought I'd comment on a few things I noticed that we actually both could use some work on
from the beginning, he's outdoing you in upgrades. his first push that you fought off at your choke was right after he got +1 on his marines, while you had no upgrades, and at the end he had +2/+2 vs your +0/+0. I also rarely upgrade with the 3gate robo build because it's hard to find the time and minerals to do it, but maybe someone else can give some pointers on that.
you did go for immortals and not colossi for whatever reason, and I've had better luck with colossus with 3gate/robo. either way your robotics facility laid dormant most of the time, and I think you could've had a better army composition with more immortal/colossi in the mix. each time you had only a few immortals and they're so easy to focus fire down with marauders that they may as well have not been there at all. and again, upgraded ones are even better.
also you should've gone for an expansion earlier. I know it's hard to really balance between building units and expanding, especially with a build as tight on minerals as a protoss gateway/robo build is, but you could've absolutely won that game if you had at least a 3rd expansion. I think the minerals might come easier if you didn't have so many gates up off of 2 bases so early, then you could add more gates after you've got your 3rd expansion up and your income is a little higher.
It's games like this that make me want to say terran is OP. While I don't necessarily take that stance, I still think terran infantry is a bit too mobile, strong, cheap, and quick to build. Not any one of these one aspects is unbalanced, but I feel that combined it may be a bit too much. For example, in this game(I certainly made a lot of mistakes), I had double his workers, was ahead by 20-30 food for most of the game, yet my army couldn't do anything, even though he was floating 1000-1500 minerals pretty consistently. I mean christ I had double the workers, he floats a ton of money, but his army is still able to beat mine...this does not seem right. This is also the perfect example of why toss needs colossi/templar, but I never got them this game due to the constant pressure. I was always trying to warp in reinforcements and never felt like I had the window to tech. And before anyone yells forcefield his army...I was trying. But you can't when he won't sit still. He just slowly kept picking off zealots and I couldn't do anything.
this game looks a lot like my own PvT games, so I thought I'd comment on a few things I noticed that we actually both could use some work on
from the beginning, he's outdoing you in upgrades. his first push that you fought off at your choke was right after he got +1 on his marines, while you had no upgrades, and at the end he had +2/+2 vs your +0/+0. I also rarely upgrade with the 3gate robo build because it's hard to find the time and minerals to do it, but maybe someone else can give some pointers on that.
you did go for immortals and not colossi for whatever reason, and I've had better luck with colossus with 3gate/robo. either way your robotics facility laid dormant most of the time, and I think you could've had a better army composition with more immortal/colossi in the mix. each time you had only a few immortals and they're so easy to focus fire down with marauders that they may as well have not been there at all. and again, upgraded ones are even better.
also you should've gone for an expansion earlier. I know it's hard to really balance between building units and expanding, especially with a build as tight on minerals as a protoss gateway/robo build is, but you could've absolutely won that game if you had at least a 3rd expansion. I think the minerals might come easier if you didn't have so many gates up off of 2 bases so early, then you could add more gates after you've got your 3rd expansion up and your income is a little higher.
maybe i'm wrong here but i've always found that immortals are only ever good against tanks, ultras, and stalkers. anything that can focus fire dps or get a surround on them takes em out pretty quick.
Guek on
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
I am super unskilled with Reapers, Banelings, and High Templar. I was reticent to start practicing with them when I started the beta, and now I've developed the bad habit of never building them. Probably a good part of why I'm stuck in Plat, other than macro, micro, and vices.
Immortals are great for Marauders, except for the fact that Marauders often come with Ghosts.
Yeah, Immortals actually lose out in cost efficiency once Marauders get stim as Stig pointed out.
Olorin: A good idea might be to reasonably sneak in upgrades or an expansion whenever you're not being attacked, even if you think you'll die if you do. If he doesn't attack then suddenly your gamble pays incredible profits.
Example (GSL Spoiler):
Such as game 3 of Cool vs oGsTop when Cool thought he lost so he powered Drones. oGsTop then failed to attack the available timing window which let Cool pull ahead economically despite suffering incredible econ harassment earlier.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Immortals are great for Marauders, except for the fact that Marauders often come with Ghosts.
Yeah, Immortals actually lose out in cost efficiency once Marauders get stim as Stig pointed out.
Olorin: A good idea might be to reasonably sneak in upgrades or an expansion whenever you're not being attacked, even if you think you'll die if you do. If he doesn't attack then suddenly your gamble pays incredible profits.
Example (GSL Spoiler):
Such as game 3 of Cool vs oGsTop when Cool thought he lost so he powered Drones. oGsTop then failed to attack the available timing window which let Cool pull ahead economically despite suffering incredible econ harassment earlier.
So do you guys generally skip Immortals all together in 3gate/robo or 2gate/robo builds in PvT?
I feel like they're maybe useful early on, but they cost nearly as much as a robo bay so maybe I'm overvaluing the usefulness of 1 or 2 immortals against an early MM push
It's games like this that make me want to say terran is OP. While I don't necessarily take that stance, I still think terran infantry is a bit too mobile, strong, cheap, and quick to build. Not any one of these one aspects is unbalanced, but I feel that combined it may be a bit too much. For example, in this game(I certainly made a lot of mistakes), I had double his workers, was ahead by 20-30 food for most of the game, yet my army couldn't do anything, even though he was floating 1000-1500 minerals pretty consistently. I mean christ I had double the workers, he floats a ton of money, but his army is still able to beat mine...this does not seem right. This is also the perfect example of why toss needs colossi/templar, but I never got them this game due to the constant pressure. I was always trying to warp in reinforcements and never felt like I had the window to tech. And before anyone yells forcefield his army...I was trying. But you can't when he won't sit still. He just slowly kept picking off zealots and I couldn't do anything.
i dunno if you wanted tips but i'm gonna give them to you anyway!
first, I'm gonna tell you straight up that zealots without charge against a marauder heavy army are absolutely, 100%, completely useless. If he's going heavy marauder/marine, you cannot attack him with zealots without charge. marauders smash stalkers and can kite zealots indefinitely so you're either going to need templar, collosi, or charge to deal with a bio army.
Unless you overwhelm with a quick 4gate or catch them off guard in some other way, I've found that early game TvP leans heavily towards the terran player due to marauders. They're just too good against normal zealots and stalkers, it's almost never worth attacking early if they have a comparable force. My advice would be to turtle up a bit until you can get to those higher tech trees. You didn't need those extra warpgates halfway through the game, 4gates should keep your army high for a very long time. It would have been wiser to either build more units, tech up, or build some cannons at that point.
In the end, he beat you by going pure bio without any tricks or fancy micro or anything. That's definitely beatable, you just need to play patiently. If it's clear he's going bio, know that an equal food army is just about always going to smash yours, especially on their home turf, without certain upgrades or higher tier units. Terran has the best defense in the game and superb offensive units. Don't fight battles unless you know (or think you know) that you'll come out on top.
First, thanks for the tips, but I'm well aware of all this. Second, did you watch the replay? I didn't attack early, except to counter attack after one of his attacks failed. I didn't think he'd have much. Second, stay on four gates, seriously? I had two bases. That's easily supports 5-6 gates with tech. My general play style against terran is 1-gate expand (3-gate expand if close positions), get 5-6 gates, then either grab a third base or tech to templar. In games like these, I'm too busy replenishing zealots to tech. He runs in, kites back out and kills half my zealots. Then runs back in and finished everything else off. I have to pull probes, so I lose mining time as well as half my probes and I can still barely hold it off. Also, you clearly don't recall any of my posts, I'm always harping about even food terran beats even food protoss gateway units - I did tests and everything.
Maratastik on
0
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
edited September 2010
Catching up on some of last weeks' dailies. Wow, Day9 sure is cranking out the protoss focused stuff. I think he needs to diversify some more.
It's games like this that make me want to say terran is OP. While I don't necessarily take that stance, I still think terran infantry is a bit too mobile, strong, cheap, and quick to build. Not any one of these one aspects is unbalanced, but I feel that combined it may be a bit too much. For example, in this game(I certainly made a lot of mistakes), I had double his workers, was ahead by 20-30 food for most of the game, yet my army couldn't do anything, even though he was floating 1000-1500 minerals pretty consistently. I mean christ I had double the workers, he floats a ton of money, but his army is still able to beat mine...this does not seem right. This is also the perfect example of why toss needs colossi/templar, but I never got them this game due to the constant pressure. I was always trying to warp in reinforcements and never felt like I had the window to tech. And before anyone yells forcefield his army...I was trying. But you can't when he won't sit still. He just slowly kept picking off zealots and I couldn't do anything.
i dunno if you wanted tips but i'm gonna give them to you anyway!
first, I'm gonna tell you straight up that zealots without charge against a marauder heavy army are absolutely, 100%, completely useless. If he's going heavy marauder/marine, you cannot attack him with zealots without charge. marauders smash stalkers and can kite zealots indefinitely so you're either going to need templar, collosi, or charge to deal with a bio army.
Unless you overwhelm with a quick 4gate or catch them off guard in some other way, I've found that early game TvP leans heavily towards the terran player due to marauders. They're just too good against normal zealots and stalkers, it's almost never worth attacking early if they have a comparable force. My advice would be to turtle up a bit until you can get to those higher tech trees. You didn't need those extra warpgates halfway through the game, 4gates should keep your army high for a very long time. It would have been wiser to either build more units, tech up, or build some cannons at that point.
In the end, he beat you by going pure bio without any tricks or fancy micro or anything. That's definitely beatable, you just need to play patiently. If it's clear he's going bio, know that an equal food army is just about always going to smash yours, especially on their home turf, without certain upgrades or higher tier units. Terran has the best defense in the game and superb offensive units. Don't fight battles unless you know (or think you know) that you'll come out on top.
so they have the best defense and the best offense? o_O
thats balanced. :P
all jokes aside you just gotta get temps and colossi for PvT. just like ZvT need banelings and infestors. its just a must.
I'm going to comment on this, though it doesn't apply to this game. I know you need templar/colossi, I am well aware of this. While in this game I did have a window to go templar or colossus (though it was much harder to decide in game due to his constant aggression), most games the terran is able to push with a critical mass of units before you can have a colossus, much less templar with storm, out. I use to 1 gate into robo for a quick observer and then get colossi (unless I scouted a push, then I chronoed an immortal). Now, I follow a more macro play style where I early expand and try to stay in the game by having a bigger army until I can get templar. That was this game, in several of his pushes, if you count up the units on each size, I had the bigger army. Still lost most of them, due to his kiting able to pick off zealots. By the end of the game I had charge, but it didn't change anything.
2 bases supports 5-6 gates without teching and expaning coming into play
look at your own replay, you have practically zero minerals to spare and it shows. If you expanded to a 3rd base instead of having 6 gates, you could've gone for even more gates and had a way larger army than he did, with upgrades. Trust me, 4-5 gates with a robotics bay on 2 gates is plenty because the time period you'll be on 2 bases requires money to be spent on expanding and upgrades/tech.
run the numbers in the unit tester with the exact armies you each had in the replay, but give yourself equal upgrades. I'm not entirely sure you would've still won that last push, but it should at least be a lot closer.
Also you did get supply blocked a number of times, which again tells me you're overproducing units on that many gateways. With 6-8 production buildings you need to almost constantly be building pylons and consider the 100 mins each into your economy.
2 bases supports 5-6 gates without teching and expaning coming into play
look at your own replay, you have practically zero minerals to spare and it shows. If you expanded to a 3rd base instead of having 6 gates, you could've gone for even more gates and had a way larger army than he did, with upgrades. Trust me, 4-5 gates with a robotics bay on 2 gates is plenty because the time period you'll be on 2 bases requires money to be spent on expanding and upgrades/tech.
run the numbers in the unit tester with the exact armies you each had in the replay, but give yourself equal upgrades. I'm not entirely sure you would've still won that last push, but it should at least be a lot closer.
Also you did get supply blocked a number of times, which again tells me you're overproducing units on that many gateways. With 6-8 production buildings you need to almost constantly be building pylons and consider the 100 mins each into your economy.
It's common knowledge that one base support three gates and a robo, or four gates. Consequently, two bases can support 6 gates and two robos, or eight gates. They may not all be at 100% but it's a good number. Hell I've seen five warpgate pushes by pros off of one base. I was resource starved b/c he forced me to pull probes several times.
I'm pretty stoked, I finally got my livestream configured correctly so that I can stream while I play without the stream lagging/dieing and where I don't get lag in game. So, now people can watch me be bad while I'm actually playing!
Trus on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
I was resource starved b/c he forced me to pull probes several times.
in which case you probably shouldn't have built those extra gateways when you did.
Except they were already building before I was forced to pull probes? I'm not talking about when I pulled probes at the beginning. I'm talking about near the end. I had 50 probes when I built gateways 5 and 6. Then he pushed in around the time they completed. I had 40 probes after that. Shortly after that, he pushed in again and I had 39 probes left after having replenished some. Then when I put them back to mining, I misclicked and they sat there for a good minute not doing anything.
I'm not saying that you can't support 6 gates and 2 off of two bases, I'm saying that you should not have in that replay. it's like you're asking for crits and then shooting them down because you just want us to agree that MM is overpowered. you're also forgetting that the "two bases can support 6 gates" number means fully saturated bases, which (correct me if I'm wrong) you did not have.
I've found that five gates and a robo on after expanding to my natural is a good number to start with, and once I have extra minerals, I build a sixth gate and a twilight facility or a second robo or whatever the situation calls for. I usually don't have the extra resources, because at the time I expand to the second base (7-9 minutes) I am also trying to do other shit, like teching up, and expanding to 3 bases so I have the econ to support HTs and don't have to worry about something like my main running out of minerals (like yours was at the end of the replay) and getting knocked back down to one base worth of income
if you want my opinion, your economy was suffering, which means in that specific game, you had more production facilities than you could support. if you want to build 6 gateways on two bases in every single game, fine, go for it. but you can't just not expand because you don't have the money, you either need to cut unit production a bit for a round or two of warpgate-cooldown, or you need to build less gateways in the first place.
I was resource starved b/c he forced me to pull probes several times.
in which case you probably shouldn't have built those extra gateways when you did.
Except they were already building before I was forced to pull probes? I'm not talking about when I pulled probes at the beginning. I'm talking about near the end. I had 50 probes when I built gateways 5 and 6. Then he pushed in around the time they completed. I had 40 probes after that. Shortly after that, he pushed in again and I had 39 probes left after having replenished some. Then when I put them back to mining, I misclicked and they sat there for a good minute not doing anything.
so if your probe count is cut from 50 probes to 40 probes (80%), you should probably cut your gateway production from 6 gates to 5 gates (83%) or be prepared to have a hamstrung economy until your probe count is back up.
either way it wouldn't have been a problem if you expanded either earlier or right after his last push instead of trying to build up a counterattack.
by the way, I did just run the numbers in the unit tester and I found that while you would've fared a lot better had you also gone +2/+2, it's still not really favorable.
having two colossus instead of the immortals (and even upgrades) comes out pretty consistently protoss-favored though, even with me A-moving the toss and focus firing down the colossi with the Terran side of things
Monoxide on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
I'm not saying that you can't support 6 gates and 2 off of two bases, I'm saying that you should not have in that replay. it's like you're asking for crits and then shooting them down because you just want us to agree that MM is overpowered. you're also forgetting that the "two bases can support 6 gates" number means fully saturated bases, which (correct me if I'm wrong) you did not have.
I've found that five gates and a robo on after expanding to my natural is a good number to start with, and once I have extra minerals, I build a sixth gate and a twilight facility or a second robo or whatever the situation calls for. I usually don't have the extra resources, because at the time I expand to the second base (7-9 minutes) I am also trying to do other shit, like teching up, and expanding to 3 bases so I have the econ to support HTs and don't have to worry about something like my main running out of minerals (like yours was at the end of the replay) and getting knocked back down to one base worth of income
if you want my opinion, your economy was suffering, which means in that specific game, you had more production facilities than you could support. if you want to build 6 gateways on two bases in every single game, fine, go for it. but you can't just not expand because you don't have the money, you either need to cut unit production a bit for a round or two of warpgate-cooldown, or you need to build less gateways in the first place.
See my previous post. I had two fully saturated bases when I plopped down gateways 5 and 6. It was after they finished and he attacked and I pulled probes and lost them, that I didn't have the economy. And I never asked for crits. I just posted it b/c these games are the kind I find really frustrating. I'm not saying I played perfect. I got supply blocked at a really bad time and stockpiled nearly 1000 minerals b/c of it. My whole point in posting the replay, was how far ahead I was economically, how I was (generally) good about keeping my minerals down, and how my opponent had 1000-1500 minerals stockpiled at a couple key points, yet his army was always strong enough to deal with mine. I well aware that colossi/templar would have changed that. It just sucks that you can be that far ahead and not be able to handle a terran infantry with gateway units...or rather, despite my economic lead, I was never able to pull ahead in army size. And fine, if I hadn't have built those last two gateways, that's 300 minerals. I could have had three more zealots. That would not have turned the tide at any time after that point.
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Go Reaper, do a medivac drop with hellions, then use Viking BC?
so they have the best defense and the best offense? o_O
thats balanced. :P
all jokes aside you just gotta get temps and colossi for PvT. just like ZvT need banelings and infestors. its just a must.
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
this game looks a lot like my own PvT games, so I thought I'd comment on a few things I noticed that we actually both could use some work on
from the beginning, he's outdoing you in upgrades. his first push that you fought off at your choke was right after he got +1 on his marines, while you had no upgrades, and at the end he had +2/+2 vs your +0/+0. I also rarely upgrade with the 3gate robo build because it's hard to find the time and minerals to do it, but maybe someone else can give some pointers on that.
you did go for immortals and not colossi for whatever reason, and I've had better luck with colossus with 3gate/robo. either way your robotics facility laid dormant most of the time, and I think you could've had a better army composition with more immortal/colossi in the mix. each time you had only a few immortals and they're so easy to focus fire down with marauders that they may as well have not been there at all. and again, upgraded ones are even better.
also you should've gone for an expansion earlier. I know it's hard to really balance between building units and expanding, especially with a build as tight on minerals as a protoss gateway/robo build is, but you could've absolutely won that game if you had at least a 3rd expansion. I think the minerals might come easier if you didn't have so many gates up off of 2 bases so early, then you could add more gates after you've got your 3rd expansion up and your income is a little higher.
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
some sean plott
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3732340/
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4152891/
And tell him to watch tomorrow, for Newbie Tuesday #2.
maybe i'm wrong here but i've always found that immortals are only ever good against tanks, ultras, and stalkers. anything that can focus fire dps or get a surround on them takes em out pretty quick.
terrible, this could not be more wrong
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3535320/
that teaches everything one needs to know
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Yeah, Immortals actually lose out in cost efficiency once Marauders get stim as Stig pointed out.
Olorin: A good idea might be to reasonably sneak in upgrades or an expansion whenever you're not being attacked, even if you think you'll die if you do. If he doesn't attack then suddenly your gamble pays incredible profits.
Example (GSL Spoiler):
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
for entertainment value that was one of the best
why am I overvaluing them so much?
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It went 6-4. They played all 10 games. Wow.
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
Time to try out that reaper/ghost build.
Proxy reaper, hellion, banshee and battlecruisers. Yes all of those are proxxied.
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Needs more mass Raven
:P
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Ravens would need some form of defense against not bronze, though Joe should send him that replay of him losing to mass ravens I agree. :P
Seriously this daily may as well be like "Zerg can't make anything but queens and spine crawlers" or Protoss can only make sentries"
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Me on Twitch!
light units won't know what hit them
So do you guys generally skip Immortals all together in 3gate/robo or 2gate/robo builds in PvT?
I feel like they're maybe useful early on, but they cost nearly as much as a robo bay so maybe I'm overvaluing the usefulness of 1 or 2 immortals against an early MM push
First, thanks for the tips, but I'm well aware of all this. Second, did you watch the replay? I didn't attack early, except to counter attack after one of his attacks failed. I didn't think he'd have much. Second, stay on four gates, seriously? I had two bases. That's easily supports 5-6 gates with tech. My general play style against terran is 1-gate expand (3-gate expand if close positions), get 5-6 gates, then either grab a third base or tech to templar. In games like these, I'm too busy replenishing zealots to tech. He runs in, kites back out and kills half my zealots. Then runs back in and finished everything else off. I have to pull probes, so I lose mining time as well as half my probes and I can still barely hold it off. Also, you clearly don't recall any of my posts, I'm always harping about even food terran beats even food protoss gateway units - I did tests and everything.
I'm going to comment on this, though it doesn't apply to this game. I know you need templar/colossi, I am well aware of this. While in this game I did have a window to go templar or colossus (though it was much harder to decide in game due to his constant aggression), most games the terran is able to push with a critical mass of units before you can have a colossus, much less templar with storm, out. I use to 1 gate into robo for a quick observer and then get colossi (unless I scouted a push, then I chronoed an immortal). Now, I follow a more macro play style where I early expand and try to stay in the game by having a bigger army until I can get templar. That was this game, in several of his pushes, if you count up the units on each size, I had the bigger army. Still lost most of them, due to his kiting able to pick off zealots. By the end of the game I had charge, but it didn't change anything.
look at your own replay, you have practically zero minerals to spare and it shows. If you expanded to a 3rd base instead of having 6 gates, you could've gone for even more gates and had a way larger army than he did, with upgrades. Trust me, 4-5 gates with a robotics bay on 2 gates is plenty because the time period you'll be on 2 bases requires money to be spent on expanding and upgrades/tech.
run the numbers in the unit tester with the exact armies you each had in the replay, but give yourself equal upgrades. I'm not entirely sure you would've still won that last push, but it should at least be a lot closer.
Also you did get supply blocked a number of times, which again tells me you're overproducing units on that many gateways. With 6-8 production buildings you need to almost constantly be building pylons and consider the 100 mins each into your economy.
This was excellent. I like how he didn't bother to scout beyond the bushes.
I want to toy around with the idea of proxying your entire base except for the CC of course, but making a PF out of it.
It's common knowledge that one base support three gates and a robo, or four gates. Consequently, two bases can support 6 gates and two robos, or eight gates. They may not all be at 100% but it's a good number. Hell I've seen five warpgate pushes by pros off of one base. I was resource starved b/c he forced me to pull probes several times.
in which case you probably shouldn't have built those extra gateways when you did.
Except they were already building before I was forced to pull probes? I'm not talking about when I pulled probes at the beginning. I'm talking about near the end. I had 50 probes when I built gateways 5 and 6. Then he pushed in around the time they completed. I had 40 probes after that. Shortly after that, he pushed in again and I had 39 probes left after having replenished some. Then when I put them back to mining, I misclicked and they sat there for a good minute not doing anything.
I've found that five gates and a robo on after expanding to my natural is a good number to start with, and once I have extra minerals, I build a sixth gate and a twilight facility or a second robo or whatever the situation calls for. I usually don't have the extra resources, because at the time I expand to the second base (7-9 minutes) I am also trying to do other shit, like teching up, and expanding to 3 bases so I have the econ to support HTs and don't have to worry about something like my main running out of minerals (like yours was at the end of the replay) and getting knocked back down to one base worth of income
if you want my opinion, your economy was suffering, which means in that specific game, you had more production facilities than you could support. if you want to build 6 gateways on two bases in every single game, fine, go for it. but you can't just not expand because you don't have the money, you either need to cut unit production a bit for a round or two of warpgate-cooldown, or you need to build less gateways in the first place.
edit:
so if your probe count is cut from 50 probes to 40 probes (80%), you should probably cut your gateway production from 6 gates to 5 gates (83%) or be prepared to have a hamstrung economy until your probe count is back up.
either way it wouldn't have been a problem if you expanded either earlier or right after his last push instead of trying to build up a counterattack.
having two colossus instead of the immortals (and even upgrades) comes out pretty consistently protoss-favored though, even with me A-moving the toss and focus firing down the colossi with the Terran side of things
See my previous post. I had two fully saturated bases when I plopped down gateways 5 and 6. It was after they finished and he attacked and I pulled probes and lost them, that I didn't have the economy. And I never asked for crits. I just posted it b/c these games are the kind I find really frustrating. I'm not saying I played perfect. I got supply blocked at a really bad time and stockpiled nearly 1000 minerals b/c of it. My whole point in posting the replay, was how far ahead I was economically, how I was (generally) good about keeping my minerals down, and how my opponent had 1000-1500 minerals stockpiled at a couple key points, yet his army was always strong enough to deal with mine. I well aware that colossi/templar would have changed that. It just sucks that you can be that far ahead and not be able to handle a terran infantry with gateway units...or rather, despite my economic lead, I was never able to pull ahead in army size. And fine, if I hadn't have built those last two gateways, that's 300 minerals. I could have had three more zealots. That would not have turned the tide at any time after that point.