Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[Affirmative Action] Perspectives and solutions

145791021

Posts

  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Think of it this way.

    The reason a poor black child will have disadvantages will be manifold, but:

    a) they have nothing to do with their race affecting their mental faculties
    b) the biggest factors now are not racism per se, but the results of previous racism (when it comes to school performance)

    For example, level of parent's education, which I mentioned earlier and you reiterated, numbers of books in the house, what have you.

    Now, one can obviously pick a spurious metric which ignores the things that poor white people have as advantages; but why would you? You are trying to produce a system that accounts for as much as possible (this is desirable both for universities and in a general sense)! And, assuming you have, it will already implicitly account for those past injustices.

    So basically, all you have to do is lie and say "My momma had zero books in the house" and automatically qualify.

    Look, if the government started a secret program to infect all black people with syphilis, most people would recognize that as a race issue that needs to be addressed as a race issue. They would not shrug their shoulders, and say, "Clearly, the real underlying problem here was the syphilis itself making black people sick, so give them some antibiotics and pretend that there was no racial component."

    It's not like black people came to this country on the same boats that white people did, only black people just happened to be poor and poor people were denied the right to vote and forced into slavery. They came here poor by design. They were kept in poverty by design.

    Schrodinger on
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Fagatron wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Fagatron wrote: »
    Also I'm always kind of amazed that white trash is an acceptable term, like it's their fault their ancestors were literally one notch above slaves back in the day (lol indentured servants) and their family lines have suffered systemic poverty as long as the US has been a nation. How much of a shit storm would there be if you referred to poor black people as "black trash."

    I don't consider "white trash" to be an acceptable term. I grew up in an area that was basically completely composed of people who would fit that label, and I find its use to be simpliticly idiotic at best and offensive at worst.

    Those kinds of obviously negative terms aren't the least bit helpful at all.

    But at the same time, nobody batted an eye at my previous use of the term until I pointed it out; and if you deny that it's a widely acceptable term, even when used by people that are not white, you must be living under a rock.
    No, people use it all the time. Hell, the people who get referred to by it often use it themselves.

    Doesn't change the fact that it's a harmful stereotype.

    That is acceptable because people see them as having advantages they don't really have because of their skin color.

    The predominant though is that people who are white trash don't HAVE to be, they're just ignorant. So it's acceptable to refer to them as such.

    There may be some truth to that, but I would also go so far as to say, at this point in time, (not twenty, thirty years ago) that there's some truth to the thought that impoverished black people, in general, don't do as much to better their lot in life as they could. Schrodinger said as much in different terms when he pointed out that white families at similar income brackets accumulate more wealth. Now, I'm sure a lot of that has to do with your race being systematically broken over hundreds of years, and being shoved into ghettos even after you'd acquired your freedom, but when do black people, as a culture, have to take some responsibility for themselves? Spending large amounts of money on jewelry and cars to show off you wealth is a huge part of black culture, that I would say is maybe a part of why they don't accumulate as much wealth.

    If white people are able to make do on similar income levels, why aren't black people? Maybe instead of throwing money at the problem in the form of government handouts, we need to try and focus more on education in money management and life planning.

    I'm not going to pretend I have all the answers here, but anecdotally I know a much larger amount of Hispanic, Indian, and Asian minorities that break free from their economic class than I do Black people, that might also just be a function of the lower population of Black people in California though so I could be talking out of my ass here. If anyone has numbers for that sort of thing that'd be great.

    Fagatron on
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Think of it this way.

    The reason a poor black child will have disadvantages will be manifold, but:

    a) they have nothing to do with their race affecting their mental faculties
    b) the biggest factors now are not racism per se, but the results of previous racism (when it comes to school performance)

    For example, level of parent's education, which I mentioned earlier and you reiterated, numbers of books in the house, what have you.

    Now, one can obviously pick a spurious metric which ignores the things that poor white people have as advantages; but why would you? You are trying to produce a system that accounts for as much as possible (this is desirable both for universities and in a general sense)! And, assuming you have, it will already implicitly account for those past injustices.

    So basically, all you have to do is lie and say "My momma had zero books in the house" and automatically qualify.

    Look, if the government started a secret program to infect all black people with syphilis, most people would recognize that as a race issue that needs to be addressed as a race issue. They would not shrug their shoulders, and say, "Clearly, the real underlying problem here was the syphilis itself making black people sick, so give them some antibiotics and pretend that there was no racial component."

    It's not like black people came to this country on the same boats that white people did, only black people just happened to be poor and poor people were denied the right to vote and forced into slavery. They came here poor by design. They were kept in poverty by design.

    And what about the Chinese people that were brought over to California to build the railroads, or the White people that came over on different boats and lived in indentured servitude?

    When is it time to take away the government teat?

    You could also pitch the argument that by and large, as a result of their slavery they are much better off than most of the people still in Africa. OTOH Africa is so fucked up mostly because of other white people so that argument probably won't fly.

    Fagatron on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    If white people are able to make do on similar income levels, why aren't black people? Maybe instead of throwing money at the problem in the form of government handouts, we need to try and focus more on education in money management and life planning.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/146966/massive_race_divide%3A_blacks_will_never_gain_wealth_equality_with_whites_under_the_current_system/
    The gap between Black and white households ballooned during the 23-year study period, as white families went from a median of about $22,000 in wealth to $100,000 – a gain of $78,000. In the same period, Black household wealth inched up from a base of $2,000 per family to only $5,000. The sweat and toil of an entire generation had netted Black families only $3,000 additional dollars, while white families emerged from the period with a net worth of 100 grand that can be used to send a couple of kids to college, make investments, help out other family members, or contribute to the larger (white) community. The typical Black family has no such options. [The study did not take property ownership into account. If property were included, the disparity would be larger.]

    Viewed another way, the median white family was 11 times richer than the median Black family in 1984 ($2,000 vs. $22,000). By 2007, the white household had become 20 times richer than its Black counterpart ($5,000 vs. $100,000).

    ...

    The Brandeis study, conducted by the university’s Institute on Assets and Social Policy, showed that upper income Blacks fell even farther behind their white peers than lower income Blacks. During the survey period, higher income Blacks saw their wealth drop from $25,000 to just $18,000, while their white counterparts wealth soared to $240,000.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3626/is_199510/ai_n8717946/
    Black Wealth, White Wealth opens with an evocative racial comparison of income and wealth which reveals that although half of the top 10 earners in the U.S. are Black, virtually no Blacks are included among the wealthiest 400 Americans. Indeed, the wealth levels for those Blacks who have "made it" into the American middle class are shown to be only 15% of the wealth level of Whites in the same income category. These and other presented data suggest that if Blacks are disadvantaged relative to Whites in terms of income-and they are, earning on average less than 60% of White household incomethen they are completely eclipsed when it comes to wealth.

    http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-discrimination-1276.php
    People living in white neighborhoods are more likely to be approved for credit cards than those living in black neighborhoods, according to a study by the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston.

    Banks deny that race is a factor in granting credit cards or setting credit limits. Consumer advocates and fair lending activists, however, say the study is just the latest evidence of systemic, institutionalized racism prevalent in the financial markets. Advocates point to lending bias at major banks and credit card issuers as the reason many low-income, black and Hispanic borrowers are forced to seek loans from payday lenders and other high-interest, high-cost sources.

    Kind of hard to accumulate assets, and thus build wealth, if you're not given the chance to build up a good credit score in the first place.

    http://www.blackcommentator.com/linguistic_profiling.html
    His own personal experience with linguistic profiling occurred a few years ago, when he was looking for a place to live in California. He would call up in response to an ad in the paper, but when he would show up, he would learn that the apartment was unavailable. He believes that it is because over the phone, when he uses his "professional voice," he sounds White. When he appeared in person, he was handed all sorts of excuses for why he could not rent - none being, of course, the obvious fact that he was Black.

    So Baugh went about trying to prove what he had suspected. Having grown up in the inner city, in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, Baugh was exposed to a variety of ethnic dialects and considers himself "linguistically dexterous." He began telephoning renters and would say, "Hello, I'm calling about the apartment you have advertised in the paper." He would make some calls using his professional voice. Other times he would modify his voice, repeating the same sentence with the same grammar but with an intonation that was unmistakably Black. He made more than 100 calls and found that his "Black" voice got half as many calls back as his "White" voice. It did not matter that when Baugh used his Black voice he was speaking perfect, standard English.

    Apparently if a speaker on the telephone sounds African-American, he is subject to the same kind of racial discrimination as he might be in a face-to-face encounter.

    Schrodinger on
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    If white people are able to make do on similar income levels, why aren't black people? Maybe instead of throwing money at the problem in the form of government handouts, we need to try and focus more on education in money management and life planning.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/146966/massive_race_divide%3A_blacks_will_never_gain_wealth_equality_with_whites_under_the_current_system/
    The gap between Black and white households ballooned during the 23-year study period, as white families went from a median of about $22,000 in wealth to $100,000 – a gain of $78,000. In the same period, Black household wealth inched up from a base of $2,000 per family to only $5,000. The sweat and toil of an entire generation had netted Black families only $3,000 additional dollars, while white families emerged from the period with a net worth of 100 grand that can be used to send a couple of kids to college, make investments, help out other family members, or contribute to the larger (white) community. The typical Black family has no such options. [The study did not take property ownership into account. If property were included, the disparity would be larger.]

    Viewed another way, the median white family was 11 times richer than the median Black family in 1984 ($2,000 vs. $22,000). By 2007, the white household had become 20 times richer than its Black counterpart ($5,000 vs. $100,000).

    ...

    The Brandeis study, conducted by the university’s Institute on Assets and Social Policy, showed that upper income Blacks fell even farther behind their white peers than lower income Blacks. During the survey period, higher income Blacks saw their wealth drop from $25,000 to just $18,000, while their white counterparts wealth soared to $240,000.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3626/is_199510/ai_n8717946/
    Black Wealth, White Wealth opens with an evocative racial comparison of income and wealth which reveals that although half of the top 10 earners in the U.S. are Black, virtually no Blacks are included among the wealthiest 400 Americans. Indeed, the wealth levels for those Blacks who have "made it" into the American middle class are shown to be only 15% of the wealth level of Whites in the same income category. These and other presented data suggest that if Blacks are disadvantaged relative to Whites in terms of income-and they are, earning on average less than 60% of White household incomethen they are completely eclipsed when it comes to wealth.

    http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-discrimination-1276.php
    People living in white neighborhoods are more likely to be approved for credit cards than those living in black neighborhoods, according to a study by the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston.

    Banks deny that race is a factor in granting credit cards or setting credit limits. Consumer advocates and fair lending activists, however, say the study is just the latest evidence of systemic, institutionalized racism prevalent in the financial markets. Advocates point to lending bias at major banks and credit card issuers as the reason many low-income, black and Hispanic borrowers are forced to seek loans from payday lenders and other high-interest, high-cost sources.

    Kind of hard to accumulate assets, and thus build wealth, if you're not given the chance to build up a good credit score in the first place.

    http://www.blackcommentator.com/linguistic_profiling.html
    His own personal experience with linguistic profiling occurred a few years ago, when he was looking for a place to live in California. He would call up in response to an ad in the paper, but when he would show up, he would learn that the apartment was unavailable. He believes that it is because over the phone, when he uses his "professional voice," he sounds White. When he appeared in person, he was handed all sorts of excuses for why he could not rent - none being, of course, the obvious fact that he was Black.

    So Baugh went about trying to prove what he had suspected. Having grown up in the inner city, in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, Baugh was exposed to a variety of ethnic dialects and considers himself "linguistically dexterous." He began telephoning renters and would say, "Hello, I'm calling about the apartment you have advertised in the paper." He would make some calls using his professional voice. Other times he would modify his voice, repeating the same sentence with the same grammar but with an intonation that was unmistakably Black. He made more than 100 calls and found that his "Black" voice got half as many calls back as his "White" voice. It did not matter that when Baugh used his Black voice he was speaking perfect, standard English.

    Apparently if a speaker on the telephone sounds African-American, he is subject to the same kind of racial discrimination as he might be in a face-to-face encounter.

    And this is all pretty fuckawful, but it's not addressing where the money's going in the first place. I would argue that if you have to go to a Payday Lender for a loan, you've already fucked up somewhere along the way with your money management.

    Young males get charged more for car insurance because, statistically, they're more likely to get in an accident than females, regardless of the individual applying for the insurance and his DMV record.

    Is it possible that something similar is going on with the financial institutions, instead of just blanket racism? Maybe minorities are statistically more likely to mismanage their money and misuse credit available to them, letting the banks pick up the tab?

    I'm not saying that this isn't something we should try to change, but look at the numbers. Even with the income disparity, large amounts of their income is vanishing compared to that of white people in similar income brackets, where the hell is it going?

    Fagatron on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    And this is all pretty fuckawful, but it's not addressing where the money's going in the first place. I would argue that if you have to go to a Payday Lender for a loan, you've already fucked up somewhere along the way with your money management.

    Or, you know, they're making use of the only options made available to them. Which was kind of the point. Discrimination against blacks limits options. It's like blaming black people in the 1960s for using out-of-date textbooks.
    Young males get charged more for car insurance because, statistically, they're more likely to get in an accident than females, regardless of the individual applying for the insurance and his DMV record.

    Is it possible that something similar is going on with the financial institutions, instead of just blanket racism? Maybe minorities are statistically more likely to mismanage their money and misuse credit available to them, letting the banks pick up the tab?

    Loans are based on credit histories and credit scores. Do credit card companies charge different rates based on gender?
    I'm not saying that this isn't something we should try to change, but look at the numbers. Even with the income disparity, large amounts of their income is vanishing compared to that of white people in similar income brackets, where the hell is it going?

    It's not "going" anywhere. Black people never had it to begin with.

    If you have two teenagers who both work at McDonalds and have the same income, but one of them has a million dollar trust fund while the other kid was raised in poverty, it would be stupid to accuse the second kid of being wasteful because he hasn't accumulated as much wealth.

    Schrodinger on
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    And this is all pretty fuckawful, but it's not addressing where the money's going in the first place. I would argue that if you have to go to a Payday Lender for a loan, you've already fucked up somewhere along the way with your money management.

    Or, you know, they're making use of the only options made available to them. Which was kind of the point. Discrimination against blacks limits options. It's like blaming black people in the 1960s for using out-of-date textbooks.
    Young males get charged more for car insurance because, statistically, they're more likely to get in an accident than females, regardless of the individual applying for the insurance and his DMV record.

    Is it possible that something similar is going on with the financial institutions, instead of just blanket racism? Maybe minorities are statistically more likely to mismanage their money and misuse credit available to them, letting the banks pick up the tab?

    Loans are based on credit histories and credit scores. Do credit card companies charge different rates based on gender?
    I'm not saying that this isn't something we should try to change, but look at the numbers. Even with the income disparity, large amounts of their income is vanishing compared to that of white people in similar income brackets, where the hell is it going?

    It's not "going" anywhere. Black people never had it to begin with.

    If you have two teenagers who both work at McDonalds and have the same income, but one of them has a million dollar trust fund while the other kid was raised in poverty, it would be stupid to accuse the second kid of being wasteful because he hasn't accumulated as much wealth.

    So all white people just come ready equipped with trust funds then because I sure didn't.

    From the part you yourself quoted from your second link:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3626/is_199510/ai_n8717946/
    Black Wealth, White Wealth opens with an evocative racial comparison of income and wealth which reveals that although half of the top 10 earners in the U.S. are Black, virtually no Blacks are included among the wealthiest 400 Americans. Indeed, the wealth levels for those Blacks who have "made it" into the American middle class are shown to be only 15% of the wealth level of Whites in the same income category. These and other presented data suggest that if Blacks are disadvantaged relative to Whites in terms of income-and they are, earning on average less than 60% of White household incomethen they are completely eclipsed when it comes to wealth.

    $5000 is not equal to 60% of $100,000. Where is all the rest of the money going?

    I took the numbers for accumulated wealth from your first link and quoted part. There is a large discrepancy between what black people are able to save from what they earn and what white people are able to save from what they earn. There isn't a magical minority suppression ray making the money vanish, it's going somewhere.


    As for credit institutions, I don't know if they discriminate by gender or not, but if you, as a business in the business of lending money, learned through trial and error that people from a particular racial and cultural background were less likely to pay back the money you lend them, would you not change your policies to minimize the damage to your business?

    I don't know if that's what's happening or not, because I'm not privy to the bank's financial information. But based on the information in your links, I would hazard a guess that black people buy more luxury items (again, jewelry, cars, etc.) than white people, and by doing so have less "wealth" in their bank accounts. Extrapolating on that behavior I would be willing to say that people who manage their money poorly (spending what they could be saving on luxury items instead of banking it) are more likely to have problems paying off loans or credit cards.

    I brought this up as an option to close the equality gap before you started talking about how THE MAN was taking away the downtrodden Black man's savings. You even quoted it at the beginning of your post as if by citing that Black people do in fact have less savings is a reason why they don't need training in money management. It is blatant goosery.

    Then again, maybe the banks are just racist.


    EDIT: The income disparities are totally fucked though and I hope that's something that shrinks as younger, more colorblind generations seize power.

    Fagatron on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    Then again, maybe the banks are just racist.

    Did Wells Fargo ever make good on their pledge to develop programs?
    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/10/business/la-fi-wells-naacp10-2010apr10

    emnmnme on
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Plenty of dumbass White people took out bad mortgages too. I'm not inclined to believe they weren't trying to get anybody that came in for a mortgage to take one.

    Fagatron on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    Fagatron wrote: »
    And this is all pretty fuckawful, but it's not addressing where the money's going in the first place. I would argue that if you have to go to a Payday Lender for a loan, you've already fucked up somewhere along the way with your money management.

    Or, you know, they're making use of the only options made available to them. Which was kind of the point. Discrimination against blacks limits options. It's like blaming black people in the 1960s for using out-of-date textbooks.
    Young males get charged more for car insurance because, statistically, they're more likely to get in an accident than females, regardless of the individual applying for the insurance and his DMV record.

    Is it possible that something similar is going on with the financial institutions, instead of just blanket racism? Maybe minorities are statistically more likely to mismanage their money and misuse credit available to them, letting the banks pick up the tab?

    Loans are based on credit histories and credit scores. Do credit card companies charge different rates based on gender?
    I'm not saying that this isn't something we should try to change, but look at the numbers. Even with the income disparity, large amounts of their income is vanishing compared to that of white people in similar income brackets, where the hell is it going?

    It's not "going" anywhere. Black people never had it to begin with.

    If you have two teenagers who both work at McDonalds and have the same income, but one of them has a million dollar trust fund while the other kid was raised in poverty, it would be stupid to accuse the second kid of being wasteful because he hasn't accumulated as much wealth.

    So all white people just come ready equipped with trust funds then because I sure didn't.

    From the part you yourself quoted from your second link:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3626/is_199510/ai_n8717946/
    Black Wealth, White Wealth opens with an evocative racial comparison of income and wealth which reveals that although half of the top 10 earners in the U.S. are Black, virtually no Blacks are included among the wealthiest 400 Americans. Indeed, the wealth levels for those Blacks who have "made it" into the American middle class are shown to be only 15% of the wealth level of Whites in the same income category. These and other presented data suggest that if Blacks are disadvantaged relative to Whites in terms of income-and they are, earning on average less than 60% of White household incomethen they are completely eclipsed when it comes to wealth.

    $5000 is not equal to 60% of $100,000. Where is all the rest of the money going?

    You're confusing income with wealth. Black people make 60% of what white people make, but the difference in accumulated wealth is vastly different.

    Again, two kids can work at the same McDonalds and make the same income. But one of those kids can have far more wealth, simply because he was born into a wealthier household and had greater opportunities.
    I took the numbers for accumulated wealth from your first link and quoted part. There is a large discrepancy between what black people are able to save from what they earn and what white people are able to save from what they earn. There isn't a magical minority suppression ray making the money vanish, it's going somewhere.

    Having more assets means you don't have to worry about money, which enables you to invest more in the long run. i.e., if your parents own land due to the Homestead act, then you don't have to worry about making the rent. That gives you greater economic flexibility than people who make similar income, but who have to put all their money towards an apartment that they will never actually own. If your parents have a car, then you can borrow it every now and then to get to a job interview, rather than having to worry about public transportation. If your parents received free education and job training due to the GI bill, then you're better off than someone who's parents were never allowed into the military in the first place. If you aren't allowed to move into a nice neighborhood with better schools because landlords will discriminate against black people who call in by the sound of the voice, then your kids will have fewer opportunities.

    White people have had access to far more opportunities and resources to allow them to get ahead.

    All these things add up over time. White people are whining about reverse racism even though the data shows that the wealth gap is increasing, rather than decreasing.
    As for credit institutions, I don't know if they discriminate by gender or not, but if you, as a business in the business of lending money, learned through trial and error that people from a particular racial and cultural background were less likely to pay back the money you lend them, would you not change your policies to minimize the damage to your business?

    Except that we have individual credit scores for a reason. Try again.

    Schrodinger on
  • sidhaethesidhaethe Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    http://www.blackcommentator.com/linguistic_profiling.html
    His own personal experience with linguistic profiling occurred a few years ago, when he was looking for a place to live in California. He would call up in response to an ad in the paper, but when he would show up, he would learn that the apartment was unavailable. He believes that it is because over the phone, when he uses his "professional voice," he sounds White. When he appeared in person, he was handed all sorts of excuses for why he could not rent - none being, of course, the obvious fact that he was Black.

    So Baugh went about trying to prove what he had suspected. Having grown up in the inner city, in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, Baugh was exposed to a variety of ethnic dialects and considers himself "linguistically dexterous." He began telephoning renters and would say, "Hello, I'm calling about the apartment you have advertised in the paper." He would make some calls using his professional voice. Other times he would modify his voice, repeating the same sentence with the same grammar but with an intonation that was unmistakably Black. He made more than 100 calls and found that his "Black" voice got half as many calls back as his "White" voice. It did not matter that when Baugh used his Black voice he was speaking perfect, standard English.

    Apparently if a speaker on the telephone sounds African-American, he is subject to the same kind of racial discrimination as he might be in a face-to-face encounter.

    BTW this has happened to me: room for rent (agreed upon with my "white" sounding voice over the phone) suddenly unavailable when I show up - have someone else call 5 minutes later and oh hey it's available! It's actually the only time I can think of aside from having n***** screamed at me by classmates that I've experienced anything I could consider blatant racism. It was kind of an "oh... wow, so that does happen" moment for me.

    sidhaethe on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    http://www.blackcommentator.com/linguistic_profiling.html
    His own personal experience with linguistic profiling occurred a few years ago, when he was looking for a place to live in California. He would call up in response to an ad in the paper, but when he would show up, he would learn that the apartment was unavailable. He believes that it is because over the phone, when he uses his "professional voice," he sounds White. When he appeared in person, he was handed all sorts of excuses for why he could not rent - none being, of course, the obvious fact that he was Black.

    So Baugh went about trying to prove what he had suspected. Having grown up in the inner city, in Philadelphia and Los Angeles, Baugh was exposed to a variety of ethnic dialects and considers himself "linguistically dexterous." He began telephoning renters and would say, "Hello, I'm calling about the apartment you have advertised in the paper." He would make some calls using his professional voice. Other times he would modify his voice, repeating the same sentence with the same grammar but with an intonation that was unmistakably Black. He made more than 100 calls and found that his "Black" voice got half as many calls back as his "White" voice. It did not matter that when Baugh used his Black voice he was speaking perfect, standard English.

    Apparently if a speaker on the telephone sounds African-American, he is subject to the same kind of racial discrimination as he might be in a face-to-face encounter.

    BTW this has happened to me: room for rent (agreed upon with my "white" sounding voice over the phone) suddenly unavailable when I show up - have someone else call 5 minutes later and oh hey it's available! It's actually the only time I can think of aside from having n***** screamed at me by classmates that I've experienced anything I could consider blatant racism. It was kind of an "oh... wow, so that does happen" moment for me.

    I'm suddenly reminded of...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCbD9o948ec

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I just want to say that, aside from Native Americans, no other minority was so brutally and definitively ground under the boot of white racism like black people. I know this isn't the oppression Olympics or anything, but comparing racism against Chinese people vs. black people is crazy. We win by a mile. And by win I mean have our culture screwed up so badly that more than half of us are poor and 1 in 4 black males are likely to go to prison.

    wwtMask on
    When he dies, I hope they write "Worst Affirmative Action Hire, EVER" on his grave. His corpse should be trolled.
    Twitter - @liberaltruths | Google+ - http://gplus.to/wwtMask | Occupy Tallahassee
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    BTW this has happened to me: room for rent (agreed upon with my "white" sounding voice over the phone) suddenly unavailable when I show up - have someone else call 5 minutes later and oh hey it's available! It's actually the only time I can think of aside from having n***** screamed at me by classmates that I've experienced anything I could consider blatant racism. It was kind of an "oh... wow, so that does happen" moment for me.

    I find it amusing when I post the study showing that businesses tend to discriminate against people with black sounding names, and a white name has a 50% better chance of getting a response despite being otherwise identical (in other words, you can't blame it on socio-economic issues). The response is, "Well gee, let's make it so that resumes no longer include names. That would fix the problem!"

    They completely miss the point, pretending that the study reviews that the names themselves are a problem, and not the fact that employers are pre-disposed to discriminate against black people.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NxLtVG9_eg

    Schrodinger on
  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I just wanna say that Affirmative Action, or Equal Opportunity does not come into play where I live. The place is... damn, at this point expressing how I feel about it would make me sound like a racist. But I'll say that even my mother, a white woman, has been shat on for having a black son; people's attitudes change literally the moment they find out. Ignorance and bigotry have become so entrenched that even my friends -close friends- pull racist shit sometimes.

    On another note, I'm surprised to find there are so many other black people in these forums now.

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
    "I'm arresting you for failing to check yourself. You have the right to wreck yourself."
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited October 2010
    sidhaethe wrote: »
    BTW this has happened to me: room for rent (agreed upon with my "white" sounding voice over the phone) suddenly unavailable when I show up - have someone else call 5 minutes later and oh hey it's available! It's actually the only time I can think of aside from having n***** screamed at me by classmates that I've experienced anything I could consider blatant racism. It was kind of an "oh... wow, so that does happen" moment for me.

    I find it amusing when I post the study showing that businesses tend to discriminate against people with black sounding names, and a white name has a 50% better chance of getting a response despite being otherwise identical (in other words, you can't blame it on socio-economic issues). The response is, "Well gee, let's make it so that resumes no longer include names. That would fix the problem!"

    They completely miss the point, pretending that the study reviews that the names themselves are a problem, and not the fact that employers are pre-disposed to discriminate against black people.

    agreed, but i would still suspect that the daryll johnsons probably get a better call-back rate than the shawneequa jacksons. i guess that's more getting into economic/ social class though, which is a related problem.

    Irond Will on
    Wqdwp8l.png
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    Fagatron wrote: »
    And this is all pretty fuckawful, but it's not addressing where the money's going in the first place. I would argue that if you have to go to a Payday Lender for a loan, you've already fucked up somewhere along the way with your money management.

    Or, you know, they're making use of the only options made available to them. Which was kind of the point. Discrimination against blacks limits options. It's like blaming black people in the 1960s for using out-of-date textbooks.
    Young males get charged more for car insurance because, statistically, they're more likely to get in an accident than females, regardless of the individual applying for the insurance and his DMV record.

    Is it possible that something similar is going on with the financial institutions, instead of just blanket racism? Maybe minorities are statistically more likely to mismanage their money and misuse credit available to them, letting the banks pick up the tab?

    Loans are based on credit histories and credit scores. Do credit card companies charge different rates based on gender?
    I'm not saying that this isn't something we should try to change, but look at the numbers. Even with the income disparity, large amounts of their income is vanishing compared to that of white people in similar income brackets, where the hell is it going?

    It's not "going" anywhere. Black people never had it to begin with.

    If you have two teenagers who both work at McDonalds and have the same income, but one of them has a million dollar trust fund while the other kid was raised in poverty, it would be stupid to accuse the second kid of being wasteful because he hasn't accumulated as much wealth.

    So all white people just come ready equipped with trust funds then because I sure didn't.

    From the part you yourself quoted from your second link:

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3626/is_199510/ai_n8717946/
    Black Wealth, White Wealth opens with an evocative racial comparison of income and wealth which reveals that although half of the top 10 earners in the U.S. are Black, virtually no Blacks are included among the wealthiest 400 Americans. Indeed, the wealth levels for those Blacks who have "made it" into the American middle class are shown to be only 15% of the wealth level of Whites in the same income category. These and other presented data suggest that if Blacks are disadvantaged relative to Whites in terms of income-and they are, earning on average less than 60% of White household incomethen they are completely eclipsed when it comes to wealth.

    $5000 is not equal to 60% of $100,000. Where is all the rest of the money going?

    You're confusing income with wealth. Black people make 60% of what white people make, but the difference in accumulated wealth is vastly different.

    Again, two kids can work at the same McDonalds and make the same income. But one of those kids can have far more wealth, simply because he was born into a wealthier household and had greater opportunities.
    I took the numbers for accumulated wealth from your first link and quoted part. There is a large discrepancy between what black people are able to save from what they earn and what white people are able to save from what they earn. There isn't a magical minority suppression ray making the money vanish, it's going somewhere.

    Having more assets means you don't have to worry about money, which enables you to invest more in the long run. i.e., if your parents own land due to the Homestead act, then you don't have to worry about making the rent. That gives you greater economic flexibility than people who make similar income, but who have to put all their money towards an apartment that they will never actually own. If your parents have a car, then you can borrow it every now and then to get to a job interview, rather than having to worry about public transportation. If your parents received free education and job training due to the GI bill, then you're better off than someone who's parents were never allowed into the military in the first place. If you aren't allowed to move into a nice neighborhood with better schools because landlords will discriminate against black people who call in by the sound of the voice, then your kids will have fewer opportunities.

    White people have had access to far more opportunities and resources to allow them to get ahead.

    All these things add up over time. White people are whining about reverse racism even though the data shows that the wealth gap is increasing, rather than decreasing.
    As for credit institutions, I don't know if they discriminate by gender or not, but if you, as a business in the business of lending money, learned through trial and error that people from a particular racial and cultural background were less likely to pay back the money you lend them, would you not change your policies to minimize the damage to your business?

    Except that we have individual credit scores for a reason. Try again.

    I'm not misunderstanding the difference between income and wealth, what I am saying is that there is a disparity between the two, when you look at what both racial demographics are saving, that is not accounted for by lower income.

    Honestly dude, how far back do you want to go with this? It's been more than 60 years since Truman signed Executive Order 9981. I understand it's been an uphill battle, but if things are getting better, and income disparities are closing, wealth disparities should be too. Black culture needs to shoulder some of the blame for the idea that it is okay to squander your money on things that show off your wealth instead of saving for the future. Case in point:

    Grillz

    There is even less point to that shit than a nice car.

    You can complain about individual credit scores all you want, we also have individual DMV records, but that doesn't stop insurance companies from charging me more, because statistically, I'm more likely to get in an accident than someone my age with a fucking vagina.

    wwtMask wrote: »
    I just want to say that, aside from Native Americans, no other minority was so brutally and definitively ground under the boot of white racism like black people. I know this isn't the oppression Olympics or anything, but comparing racism against Chinese people vs. black people is crazy. We win by a mile. And by win I mean have our culture screwed up so badly that more than half of us are poor and 1 in 4 black males are likely to go to prison.

    Well then clearly I win the racial suffering bingo because my dirt farmer ancestors intermarried with Cherokees pretty extensively. To the point where one of the most frequent stories I heard from my Grandma growing up was telling me about how my Grandpa had to worry about people finding out and calling him a Halfbreed when he was a young man trying to make his way in the world.

    The funniest part about that, is that they tried so hard to assimilate and did such a good job of it that they avoided being on the Dawes Rolls so I'm not even able to get government benefits or scholarships for that even though I've got detailed genealogies going all the way back to England (Grandma's hobby), and I'm "more" Native American than some of the people on the reservations.

    Fagatron on
  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    I'm not misunderstanding the difference between income and wealth, what I am saying is that there is a disparity between the two, when you look at what both racial demographics are saving, that is not accounted for by lower income.

    Honestly dude, how far back do you want to go with this? It's been more than 60 years since Truman signed Executive Order 9981. I understand it's been an uphill battle, but if things are getting better, and income disparities are closing, wealth disparities should be too. Black culture needs to shoulder some of the blame for the idea that it is okay to squander your money on things that show off your wealth instead of saving for the future. Case in point:

    Grillz

    There is even less point to that shit than a nice car.

    it's hard for me to imagine that lower-class whites are any less frivolous or wasteful than their black counterparts within the same economic class.

    Irond Will on
    Wqdwp8l.png
  • DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Is it some sort of ironic meta-humor that the first google image for "grillz" is a doofy looking white dude?

    Deebaser on
    YOLO. Swag. Whatever. Fuck it. Lets do this.
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    I'm not misunderstanding the difference between income and wealth, what I am saying is that there is a disparity between the two, when you look at what both racial demographics are saving, that is not accounted for by lower income.

    Yeah. It's called inherited wealth.

    You keep saying that you understand the difference, but it really doesn't seem like you do.
    Honestly dude, how far back do you want to go with this? It's been more than 60 years since Truman signed Executive Order 9981. I understand it's been an uphill battle, but if things are getting better, and income disparities are closing, wealth disparities should be too.

    Except that white people continue to reinvest their wealth in order to achieve greater wealth, and can do so at a faster rate than black people due to more disposable income and a long head start. It will continue to be this way until we make radical efforts to address the problem.
    Black culture needs to shoulder some of the blame for the idea that it is okay to squander your money on things that show off your wealth instead of saving for the future. Case in point:

    Grillz

    Wow, it takes a big man to point to a blatantly racist stereotype as the reason black people are at a disadvantage. Obviously, giving white people 270 million acres of free land has nothing to do with why white people are further ahead. The real reason is because black people decorate their teeth.

    You're in complete denial here.
    You can complain about individual credit scores all you want, we also have individual DMV records, but that doesn't stop insurance companies from charging me more, because statistically, I'm more likely to get in an accident than someone my age with a fucking vagina.

    What the hell are you talking about?

    Schrodinger on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    People who have more money to begin with have the luxury of making better financial decisions. Because they can plan for long term investments, rather than focusing on short term needs. i.e., maybe it's cheaper in the long run to buy things in bulk, but you simply can't afford it. Maybe it's cheaper to buy quality goods that will last rather than cheap plastic crap, but you simply can't afford it. Maybe you're better off buying a house rather than renting a house, but you simply can't afford it.

    People who have access to good loans and better neighborhoods have better investment opportunities than people who do not. If you can't buy a nice house in a nice neighborhood because the bank doesn't like the color of your skin, then you're going to be at a disadvantage.

    People who are born into money have more experience managing it than people who don't.

    People who can continue to milk off their parents can sign up for an unpaid internship for resume building and networking, where as people who have to support themselves might be stuck as a frycook at McDonalds with no real chance at McDonalds. Technically, the frycook makes more income. But he is not better off.

    People who have computers and fast internet access can research the best products and bargains both online and offline, where as people without such access might be stuck paying at stores at a higher rate for lower quality products.

    Right now, our tax code rewards investment over work. This makes it easier on white people who already have wealth and money tied up in assets and investments, while punishing black people who actually have to work at it.

    Schrodinger on
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Yeah. It's called inherited wealth.

    You keep saying that you understand the difference, but it really doesn't seem like you do.


    Except I've referred to wealth multiple times as savings...

    Except that white people continue to reinvest their wealth in order to achieve greater wealth, and can do so at a faster rate than black people due to more disposable income and a long head start. It will continue to be this way until we make radical efforts to address the problem.

    Only you have economic crashes that more or less reset the middle class' savings periodically. The Great Depression, the Recession now, smaller downturns in between. You can't say the disparity between White and Black people's accumulated wealth changed that rapidly solely because of White people being better at reinvesting their money.

    Wow, it takes a big man to point to a blatantly racist stereotype as the reason black people are at a disadvantage. Obviously, giving white people 270 million acres of free land has nothing to do with why white people are further ahead. The real reason is because black people decorate their teeth.

    You're in complete denial here.

    It's more mature than posting a picture of a Black Panther as an example of how Black people are aggressive towards White people.

    It was relevant because it is a completely frivolous luxury item that is pushed by Black popular culture. Materialism is rampant in Black popular culture, to a level that, IMO, outstrips white culture, at least to the level that normal people subscribe to it. You want proof I can go around taking pictures of footwear in the Bayview.

    That land you keep complaining about has changed hands so many times at this point, sure it gave White people a head start, but so did not being held in slavery. If the income gap is closing the wealth gap should follow. I do not believe that White investments count for a 1200% disparity, especially with the way the Recession wiped out tons of people's life savings.
    You can complain about individual credit scores all you want, we also have individual DMV records, but that doesn't stop insurance companies from charging me more, because statistically, I'm more likely to get in an accident than someone my age with a fucking vagina.

    What the hell are you talking about?

    I am saying that companies look at the risk of doing business with certain demographics before they do business with them. The best example I could come up with is Auto Insurance because for whatever reason that kind of gender discrimination is legal. I am saying maybe it's not just blanket racism but an analysis of the risk of doing business with black individuals because of poor money management as a generalization of the demographic they belong to. I don't know if this is true or not, but I find it more likely than financial institutions just wanting to keep Black people down for the sake of keeping them down.

    I also doubt anybody would be able to find numbers or statements from financial institutions backing that up because holy shit would that be illegal but it makes sense.

    Fagatron on
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Deebaser wrote: »
    Is it some sort of ironic meta-humor that the first google image for "grillz" is a doofy looking white dude?

    It's because they were originally popularized by a shitty White rapper. Because we're all trying to keep the Black man down.

    Fagatron on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    Except I've referred to wealth multiple times as savings...
    Wealth goes well beyond savings. It also goes into net-worth, investments, assets, etc. It's not like the median white person simply has $100k in a normal savings account.

    Person A owns a house, has $100 in the bank, and works at McDonalds. Person B rents an apartment, has $1000 in the bank, and works at McDonalds. Who has more wealth? Who is better off?
    It was relevant because it is a completely frivolous luxury item that is pushed by Black popular culture. Materialism is rampant in Black popular culture, to a level that, IMO, outstrips white culture, at least to the level that normal people subscribe to it.

    Really? Do you have any stats to back that up? Or are you merely making an assumption based on skin color?
    You want proof I can go around taking pictures of footwear in the Bayview.

    Oh, anecdotal evidence. Which, as well all know, is the best kind of evidence.
    I do not believe that White investments count for a 1200% disparity, especially with the way the Recession wiped out tons of people's life savings.

    Again, savings =/= net worth.
    I am saying that companies look at the risk of doing business with certain demographics before they do business with them. The best example I could come up with is Auto Insurance because for whatever reason that kind of gender discrimination is legal. I am saying maybe it's not just blanket racism but an analysis of the risk of doing business with black individuals because of poor money management as a generalization of the demographic they belong to. I don't know if this is true or not, but I find it more likely than financial institutions just wanting to keep Black people down for the sake of keeping them down.

    So you're okay with discrimination against black people, as long as there's a black stereotype to justify it.

    Schrodinger on
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Schrodinger you are so obsessed with things that well off White people have that you are blind to the fact that vast swathes of Caucasians do not have access to those things.

    I had none of those things growing up (not even high speed internet) and most of the people I consider my peers lacked them as well. You are talking about a fairly small chunk of the population here, most of them live in places like Marin. The internships I worked at were paid work I had to interview for just like any other job.

    Instead of wasting so much time complaining about what you don't have you should spend more time trying to put yourself in a position where your children will have these things. Instead of waiting for a handout to elevate them to the status of those that have already become affluent minorities need to chase every available opportunity to better themselves.

    And I still don't think there's a ton of difference between growing up Black, and growing up White and poor, in California; that isn't more than made up for by Affirmative Action policies in place.


    We can go round and round about this but I feel like, at this point, you're intentionally trying to misunderstand things I'm saying and twist my words. For fuck's sake, early on in this exchange you posted a picture comparing me to a psycho anti-Obama white supremacist, and you have the gall to call me a big man for pointing out something that is pushed by Black popular culture that is a completely frivolous waste of potential wealth.

    I don't think there's much point in talking about this any further when all you want to do is rant about how the White Man keeps the Black Man down.

    Fagatron on
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Actually fuck it, I don't even need all those words, all I am saying is that there are internal factors, perpetuated by Black members of Black communities that continue to impoverish Black people and sustain ghettos. Stop trying to blame everything on external factors and shoulder some of the goddamn blame.

    You want a correlation between the rapidly shrinking wealth, look at the rise of materialism in Hip Hop and popular culture in the years running up to that study. Also if you'd read it fully they didn't include houses, so it did basically boil down to savings and investments.

    Look to the future instead of now. The discrimination will stop, my generation and the following generations will see to that.

    Fagatron on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    Schrodinger you are so obsessed with things that well off White people have that you are blind to the fact that vast swathes of Caucasians do not have access to those things.

    You asked why black people weren't catching up based on income alone. I explained it to you. Now you're whining about a completely different problem.
    I had none of those things growing up (not even high speed internet) and most of the people I consider my peers lacked them as well. You are talking about a fairly small chunk of the population here, most of them live in places like Marin. The internships I worked at were paid work I had to interview for just like any other job.

    And yet, solely on the basis of being white, you could serve 18 months in prison for selling cocaine and still have a better chance of finding an entry level position than if you had been born black. Solely on the basis of being born white, you will have an easier time finding an apartment in a nice neighborhood. Solely on the basis of being white, you will have a 50% better chance of getting a callback for your resume than a black person with an otherwise identical resume. Solely on the basis of being white, you will have an easier time getting loans.

    These advantages exist even when we ignore any potential advantages from wealth or income.
    Instead of wasting so much time complaining about what you don't have you should spend more time trying to put yourself in a position where your children will have these things. Instead of waiting for a handout to elevate them to the status of those that have already become affluent minorities need to chase every available opportunity to better themselves.

    You realize that this is what AA does, right? The entire purpose is to give black people some of the opportunities that would otherwise be lost to them on the basis of their skin color.
    And I still don't think there's a ton of difference between growing up Black, and growing up White and poor, in California; that isn't more than made up for by Affirmative Action policies in place.

    If you're white, you have a 50% better chance of getting a job call back than an equally qualified black person. Thanks to AA, you might have a 1.5% decreased chance of getting into a nice college. Which one do you think has the bigger impact on your life?
    We can go round and round about this but I feel like, at this point, you're intentionally trying to misunderstand things I'm saying and twist my words. For fuck's sake, early on in this exchange you posted a picture comparing me to a psycho anti-Obama white supremacist, and you have the gall to call me a big man for pointing out something that is pushed by Black popular culture that is a completely frivolous waste of potential wealth.

    You made the assertion that no one was looking out for the rights of white people. I pointed to a counter example. I don't see why you're complaining.

    Schrodinger on
  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    So, if I'm reading this right... so-called 'Black Culture' is more materialistic than white culture? By-in-large? Are you even... Have you ever looked around you? I mean that in the literal sense. I mean, looked away from whatever you are doing at the moment and taken a real good look at how your ethnic group handles shit? America itself is the most materialistic nation on the planet. Capitalism; it's a thing. But 'Black Culture' didn't invent that shit. As a matter of fact, for most of American history, 'Black Culture' has centered around... wait for it...

    Being Poor As Hell.


    Yeah, hip-hop culture is materialistic. It also consists of people who come from fuckawful circumstance, who gain wealth. It's called 'new money.' There's actually a phrase for it developed by black people; I won't repeat the phrase here, as it contains a racial slur. People with new money have a tendency to spend too much. When you're poor all the time, and money you get is new money. This is true of white people with new money, I assure you.

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
    "I'm arresting you for failing to check yourself. You have the right to wreck yourself."
  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    the White Man keeps the Black Man down.

    Sense made!

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
    "I'm arresting you for failing to check yourself. You have the right to wreck yourself."
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    Actually fuck it, I don't even need all those words, all I am saying is that there are internal factors, perpetuated by Black members of Black communities that continue to impoverish Black people and sustain ghettos. Stop trying to blame everything on external factors and shoulder some of the goddamn blame.

    You want a correlation between the rapidly shrinking wealth, look at the rise of materialism in Hip Hop and popular culture in the years running up to that study. Also if you'd read it fully they didn't include houses, so it did basically boil down to savings and investments.

    Look to the future instead of now. The discrimination will stop, my generation and the following generations will see to that.

    You brought up the example of shoes.

    Just out of curiosity, who do you think is marketing shoes to black people? What color is the CEO of Nike? The CEO of Reebok? The CEO of Adidas? Who runs these companies? Who's in charge of the marketing?

    Is the consumerist attitude being perpetuated by the black community? Or is it being perpetuated by the media? And if that's the case, then who's in charge of how black people get portrayed in the media?

    Schrodinger on
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    FroThulhu wrote: »
    Yeah, hip-hop culture is materialistic. It also consists of people who come from fuckawful circumstance, who gain wealth. It's called 'new money.' There's actually a phrase for it developed by black people; I won't repeat the phrase here, as it contains a racial slur. People with new money have a tendency to spend too much. When you're poor all the time, and money you get is new money. This is true of white people with new money, I assure you.

    Are you somehow implying that there are white musicians who immediately squander all their cash on stupid things?

    Schrodinger on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    FroThulhu wrote: »
    Yeah, hip-hop culture is materialistic. It also consists of people who come from fuckawful circumstance, who gain wealth. It's called 'new money.' There's actually a phrase for it developed by black people; I won't repeat the phrase here, as it contains a racial slur. People with new money have a tendency to spend too much. When you're poor all the time, and money you get is new money. This is true of white people with new money, I assure you.

    Are you somehow implying that there are white musicians who immediately squander all their cash on stupid things?

    I'm going to point at the Dot Com Boom.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    You brought up the example of shoes.

    Just out of curiosity, who do you think is marketing shoes to black people? What color is the CEO of Nike? The CEO of Reebok? The CEO of Adidas? Who runs these companies? Who's in charge of the marketing?

    Is the consumerist attitude being perpetuated by the black community? Or is it being perpetuated by the media? And if that's the case, then who's in charge of how black people get portrayed in the media?

    Obviously it's not the shoe companies' faults that at a genetic level, Black people are more stupid and easily exploitable than White people.

    Fagatron on
  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    FroThulhu wrote: »
    Yeah, hip-hop culture is materialistic. It also consists of people who come from fuckawful circumstance, who gain wealth. It's called 'new money.' There's actually a phrase for it developed by black people; I won't repeat the phrase here, as it contains a racial slur. People with new money have a tendency to spend too much. When you're poor all the time, and money you get is new money. This is true of white people with new money, I assure you.

    Are you somehow implying that there are white musicians who immediately squander all their cash on stupid things?

    Oh, goodness me, no. That... that's madness!

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
    "I'm arresting you for failing to check yourself. You have the right to wreck yourself."
  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Fagatron wrote: »
    You brought up the example of shoes.

    Just out of curiosity, who do you think is marketing shoes to black people? What color is the CEO of Nike? The CEO of Reebok? The CEO of Adidas? Who runs these companies? Who's in charge of the marketing?

    Is the consumerist attitude being perpetuated by the black community? Or is it being perpetuated by the media? And if that's the case, then who's in charge of how black people get portrayed in the media?

    Obviously it's not the shoe companies' faults that at a genetic level, Black people are more stupid and easily exploitable than White people.

    And I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're making a joke.

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
    "I'm arresting you for failing to check yourself. You have the right to wreck yourself."
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Maybe?

    If Black people are honestly so mentally feeble and helpless and can't keep from buying into the stereotypes of what the media tells them they should be like Schrodinger says maybe not?

    It's perpetuating a culture of victims and it's bullshit.

    I'm not talking about black hip-hop singers, I'm talking about impoverished black youths and young adults who've bought into the stereotype and spend ludicrous amounts of money on clothing, jewelry, and cars, that could be put to better use on things like education or savings.

    Sure it's anecdotal but are you all really telling me that this isn't something that is common? I crashed with a friend in the Bayview for several months while I was trying to get on my feet (the Bayview is the Black Ghetto in San Francisco), and I was fucking immersed in this shit for a couple years when I was off in boarding school for being a fuckup.

    Fagatron on
  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Yeah, and what I just said is that 'white culture' is equally guilty of, en masse, buying into really stupid cultural movements. Do you have any idea how many people are trying to be rednecks/cowboys for no reason other than the comedic abominations that have occured in the last decade? Are you aware of what a 'Crusty' is? DISCO? Seriously, I'm telling you, we are no more guilty of buying into detrimental cultural ideals than white people. I'm sure this comes as a surprise to you.

    Clearly, you are convinced that 'black culture' (which, by even typing the words, you're displaying an assumption that you know anything more than fuck all about all blacks, and 'our' culture) is where the problem lies. Shit, man. Let me go tell all the other negroes to get right on straightening up. Yeah, we's done been makin too much trouble fo' ourselves, what wit' buyin' all them fancy things.

    God forbid a black person should spend money on the same stuff some suburban white kid might. That's the problem; we're getting ahead of ourselves. Silly, uppity black folk, with all our spending.

    EDIT:I already feel guilty about getting this angry. Sorry, folks.

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
    "I'm arresting you for failing to check yourself. You have the right to wreck yourself."
  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    The American history has had a pretty dismal history when it comes to portrayals of minorities. We can't even get an Asian lead for the live adaptation of "Airbender." For black people, the media basically says, "Look, the only thing you're good at is hip hop and sports, and here's what the people in those industries happen to like." Yes, there is a show right now called "Pimp My Ride." That doesn't mean that there aren't black people who spend their money responsible, but I doubt that MTV has any interest on creating a TV show with that premise.

    Fagatron is basically buying into the media stereotype of black people while also denying that black people are manipulated by the media.

    Schrodinger on
  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    The American history has had a pretty dismal history when it comes to portrayals of minorities. We can't even get an Asian lead for the live adaptation of "Airbender." For black people, the media basically says, "Look, the only thing you're good at is hip hop and sports, and here's what the people in those industries happen to like." Yes, there is a show right now called "Pimp My Ride." That doesn't mean that there aren't black people who spend their money responsible, but I doubt that MTV has any interest on creating a TV show with that premise.

    Fagatron is basically buying into the media stereotype of black people while also denying that black people are manipulated by the media.

    What bothers me more is that he's implied that nobody else is guilty of being manipulated by the media, or of creating an undesirable cultural movement. As though African Americans are the sole demographic guilty of making this mistake. Head In Sand.

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
    "I'm arresting you for failing to check yourself. You have the right to wreck yourself."
  • FagatronFagatron Registered User
    edited October 2010
    FroThulhu wrote: »
    The American history has had a pretty dismal history when it comes to portrayals of minorities. We can't even get an Asian lead for the live adaptation of "Airbender." For black people, the media basically says, "Look, the only thing you're good at is hip hop and sports, and here's what the people in those industries happen to like." Yes, there is a show right now called "Pimp My Ride." That doesn't mean that there aren't black people who spend their money responsible, but I doubt that MTV has any interest on creating a TV show with that premise.

    Fagatron is basically buying into the media stereotype of black people while also denying that black people are manipulated by the media.

    What bothers me more is that he's implied that nobody else is guilty of being manipulated by the media, or of creating an undesirable cultural movement. As though African Americans are the sole demographic guilty of making this mistake. Head In Sand.

    I haven't implied, or said that. I don't think other demographics have bought into it near as much as what I saw when I was in boarding school, or when I lived in the Bayview; but there's certainly the redneck that buys the giant truck because that's what he's supposed to have, or the yuppie that goes out and buys a sports car while he's still renting because that's what he's supposed to do. The media tells me I should shop at Neiman Marcus and buy a Ferrari but if I had that kind of money I'd put it into further education or buying a house.

    Part of what bothers me about Hip Hop culture is it seems far more damaging and prevalent than other fads. Honestly, I know there's other aspects to Black Culture, I'm a fan of some of them; but if Hip Hop culture is not the dominant culture of Black youth, what is? From my time living in and visiting those areas, and riding public transit everywhere, it also seems like it's the most impoverished people that latch onto it the hardest, like it's going to show they're worth something.

    It bothers me because it's so self destructive and they could be so much fucking better.

    And yeah, if spending $500 on one goddamn outfit is beyond your means, maybe you are getting ahead of yourselves by trying to buy the same stuff a suburban white kid has. I certainly didn't, and still don't have those kinds of things.

    I don't understand why this is an accepted part of your culture and why it doesn't get shouted the fuck down more often by more level headed Black people.

    EDIT: To be fair, there were a few posts where I said that, but they were in response to Schrodinger saying it was the media's fault. At some point you have to take some fucking responsibility for yourself, you can't blame the media for everything.

    Fagatron on
Sign In or Register to comment.