[Affirmative Action] Perspectives and solutions

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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited October 2010
    mythago wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    i wonder, and i don't really know so i'm just kind of musing here, but i wonder if this phenomenon of preferring whites for employment is much more dominant among the working-class than among the professional class.

    i suspect it is. my experience as an engineer is that black engineers are assiduously courted and extreme efforts to ensure fair and courteous workplace behavior are established. my brother, a banker and lawyer, tells me that much the same is done at his wall street office.

    Oh, I don't know. I've heard some pretty hair-raising stories about how the professional class deals with race - people getting 'assidiously courted' for meetings and client calls to show We Care About Diversity, but still being shut out of company culture, last hired and first fired, treated as the representative of all black people, etc. etc. Whereas I've also heard plenty of blue-collar folks who don't give a shit what color you are as long as you pull your weight.

    has this been your experience?

    it has not been mine

    Irond Will on
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  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Yes, that has been my experience. I haven't *personally* been on the receiving end of being the Diversity Puppet, but every single lawyer of my acquaintance who a) isn't white and b) works for a Big Law Firm rolls their eyes and laughs about this: they get 'assidiously courted' just long enough for said firm to proudly point to their statistics, but other than that, it's same old same old.

    And certainly when it comes to female employees, well, Wall Street has a pretty long and ugly reputation on that one.

    Which is not to say that all blue-collar employers are models of diversity or white-collar employers aren't.

    mythago on
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  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I have essentially zero experience with white-collar work, but I'd say that the actions are the same, just phrased differently. The 'last hired, first fired' thing is my personal experience. And I generally display a higher level of cognitive functionality, as well as by-the-books behavior.

    FroThulhu on
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  • MentalExerciseMentalExercise Indefenestrable Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    To be fair, while people with "black sounding names" don't get the callback, neither do people named Bubba, Jim-Bob, or Billy-Ray.

    MentalExercise on
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  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    To be fair, while people with "black sounding names" don't get the callback, neither do people named Bubba, Jim-Bob, or Billy-Ray.

    Sadly, they do around here.

    FroThulhu on
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  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    To be fair, while people with "black sounding names" don't get the callback

    Yes. That's because the assumption is that such people are black. They are not being passed over because 'well, we know the guy's white but we just don't want someone named LaJohnae working here even so."
    neither do people named Bubba, Jim-Bob, or Billy-Ray.

    Classism is real, too. It can operate in tandem with racism.

    mythago on
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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited October 2010
    the LaJohnae phenomenon is both race and class-based

    shaniqua is the black maree-sue

    Irond Will on
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  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    the LaJohnae phenomenon is both race and class-based

    shaniqua is the black maree-sue

    On a side note, I've noticed a lot of caucasions giving their children 'black sounding' names lately. Anybody else?

    FroThulhu on
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  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Nope, it's all Olivia, Claire and Jacob out thisaway

    mythago on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Just generally people have started obnoxiously adding in random letters to be unique. That's just an everyone's a special little snowflake phenomenon.

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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited October 2010
    FroThulhu wrote: »
    Irond Will wrote: »
    the LaJohnae phenomenon is both race and class-based

    shaniqua is the black maree-sue

    On a side note, I've noticed a lot of caucasions giving their children 'black sounding' names lately. Anybody else?

    i've not bumped into this

    it feels like the big thing with upper-middle class white people lately has been giving their kids last names as first names and naming their kids after places.

    also, the yuppies i know from the dog park named their kid 'Edwin'

    so maybe vintage names are in too

    Irond Will on
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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited October 2010
    Just generally people have started obnoxiously adding in random letters to be unique. That's just an everyone's a special little snowflake phenomenon.

    i saw that more with people born in the 70s and 80s

    the gynopher syndrome

    Irond Will on
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  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Hmm... I've been running into a lot of weird-ass names lately. Kaden and Shaden, and other strangenesses

    FroThulhu on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Those are probably Irish or Scottish in origin, or at least bastardizations of Irish or Scottish names.

    wwtMask on
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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited October 2010
    Isn't Will Smith's kid named, like, Jaden?

    man a GIS for "Kaiden" shows a shitload of white babies.

    where the fuck did that come from?

    Irond Will on
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  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    it feels like the big thing with upper-middle class white people lately has been giving their kids last names as first names and naming their kids after places.

    Oh, that too. I'm told that was a common practice in the South - giving a boy his mother's maiden name as a first name - but lately the chattering classes have picked that up, though that seems to be fading out. (Seriously, unless you're a huge noir fiction fan, you have no excuse to name your kid Chandler.)

    mythago on
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  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Isn't Will Smith's kid named, like, Jaden?

    man a GIS for "Kaiden" shows a shitload of white babies.

    where the fuck did that come from?

    Some chick I know (caucasian) named her kid that.

    I guess Jaden and Shaden(btw, the 'shad' part is pronounced like it is in "shadow") might be pseudo-traditional Irish names; they just suck so much, tho. And one of these dude's last name was Boudreaux. So, WTF? And, I mean, I'm Irish all over the place; in our family, the most Irish-sounding first name we've got is Shaun.

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
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  • Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited October 2010
    "shaden boudreau" is just comical

    i don't know what else to think

    the irish have some p ridiculous names. i'm not gonna make any excuses for them

    Irond Will on
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  • FroThulhuFroThulhu Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I was hoping to avoid putting somebody's name on the intarwebs, but you guessed it. And, yes, it does sound comical, especially considering the guy was a full-on scummy goose, and not some sort of crimefighter.

    Yes, there are some unfortunate Irish names.

    FroThulhu on
    Nova_C wrote: »
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  • SchrodingerSchrodinger Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    To be fair, while people with "black sounding names" don't get the callback, neither do people named Bubba, Jim-Bob, or Billy-Ray.

    The different is that there isn't actually anyone formerly named "Bubba" or "Jim-Bob" in the US. Those are nicknames that wouldn't be put on a resume. So basically the white equivalent of this phenomenon applies to white people who don't actually exist.

    http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/data/1990surnames/names_files.html

    But here's the other problem. The name "Bubba" is looked down upon because we tend to associate that name with being a socially inbred hillbilly with no class. (It's okay for me to say that because, again, that name doesn't exist in the US census. It's something that usually only appears in fiction, specifically to convey that idea). Your assertion is that the mere act of having an African sounding name is equivalent to that.

    That, in itself, reveals your biases.

    It's the same thing that happens when conservatives say, "I have nothing about gay people, but I don't think that we should legalize gay marriage, for the same reason that we don't legalize pedophila or bestiality." In the mind of those conservative, being gay and bestiality are morally equivalent. In your mind, "Deshawn" and "Bubba" are socially equivalent. Why is that?

    But here's the other problem with this line of reasoning.

    "It's okay to discriminate against people named Deshawn, because people named Deshawn tend to be poor and have less education."

    can just be a fancy way of saying

    "It's okay to discriminate against who are black, because people who are black tend to be poor and have less education."


    Because the fact is, black people in general tend to have less money, and less education. And it's doubtful that the line of reasoning for the employer is, "Well, I've met a lot of people named DeShawn, and those people are poor and uneducated, and I assume that this DeShawn is the same way." More likely, the line of reasoning is, "People named DeShawn tend to be black, and black people tend to be poor and educated."

    Why is it so easy to believe that employers are biased against the name, but so hard to believe that they would be biased against a race? There is no logical reason to make that distinction. However, there is willful denial, of not wanting to believe that you are the beneficiary of white privilege.

    Schrodinger on
  • PellaeonPellaeon Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Irond Will wrote: »
    Isn't Will Smith's kid named, like, Jaden?

    man a GIS for "Kaiden" shows a shitload of white babies.

    where the fuck did that come from?

    270px-Kaidan_Character_Box.png

    Pellaeon on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Well, fuck that, I don't owe anyone else anything due to their race, or mine. And I'm going to oppose any program that seeks to put me or my family at a disadvantage due to race.

    So you're going to oppose any program that attempts to level the playing field, even after the data has shown that the current system is tilted against black people. Because hey, you're not black, and any attempt to level the playing field will put you at a disadvantage.
    Except, affirmative action doesn't seek to level the playing field. It seeks to give one player an advantage over another based on their race. We already have anti-discrimination laws in this country, which are a perfectly legitimate way to work towards a level playing field.
    It's like a football coach who discovers that some of his players have been taking steroids, and he complains about how awful it is. But he refuses to tell his players to stop taking steroids or kick them off the team, because then he would lose all his good players.
    You're comparing being white to cheating?
    Why is it that you're absolutely positive that the statistical benefits of being white have no effect on you whatsoever, while you're also absolutely convinced that if you don't get the job, it's because of some negro on affirmative action?

    Why are you willing to blame all of your shortcomings on racism, but none of your accomplishments?
    In my line of work, affirmative action is essentially a non-issue. I doubt affirmative action has ever really harmed me or denied me an opportunity. So, this discussion isn't really about me, except in a very general sense.

    If you look back, I was responding to an anaology where a poster seemed to be suggesting that being white was essentially the same as illegitimately taking money out of someone else's paycheck.

    Modern Man on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Being white is not so much like cheating as it is like running a marathon with a three mile head start. Complaining about AA is like being that white guy who got the head start complaining that the starting point of the marathon had been moved up half a mile in order to slightly mitigate the fact that the white runner has a 3 mile head start.

    wwtMask on
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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    See, it seems more like being white is like being part of a relay race and a lot of the people wearing red shirts are in the lead against people wearing blue shirts.

    Your team is a red shirt team.

    It has been revealed that a lot of the red shirt teams cheated in the first few sections of the race. And now all red teams have to wait a bit for the blue shirt teams to catch up.

    Your team may or may not have cheated, and YOU certainly ddint cheat, but because your wearing red, you have to wait too.

    The thing that makes it ok is that, in this race, people are actively tripping people who wear blue shirts, and getting in their way. Im ok with finding a way to stop people from interfering with the blue shirts. Im even ok with waiting a bit to mitigate the current issues with the blue shirts. But I dont think Im ok with waiting because some red shirts cheated earlier...

    Disrupter on
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  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Disrupter wrote: »
    See, it seems more like being white is like being part of a relay race and a lot of the people wearing red shirts are in the lead against people wearing blue shirts.

    Your team is a red shirt team.

    It has been revealed that a lot of the red shirt teams cheated in the first few sections of the race. And now all red teams have to wait a bit for the blue shirt teams to catch up.

    Your team may or may not have cheated, and YOU certainly ddint cheat, but because your wearing red, you have to wait too.
    I like this analogy. Probably because I think it supports my point. Yeah, people wearing red shirts have cheated in the past and some continue to cheat today. And, yeah, I'm wearing a red shirt.

    But unless the people in charge of the race can show that my team cheated, then they have no right to make me wait for the blue runners. Yeah, punish anyone in a red shirt who cheated, but leave everyone else alone to run the race to the best of their abilities. If everyone plays by the rules and the blue shirted runners still lose, they shouldn't be allowed to carve off a few seconds from their time to make things "fair."

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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Disrupter wrote: »
    See, it seems more like being white is like being part of a relay race and a lot of the people wearing red shirts are in the lead against people wearing blue shirts.

    Your team is a red shirt team.

    It has been revealed that a lot of the red shirt teams cheated in the first few sections of the race. And now all red teams have to wait a bit for the blue shirt teams to catch up.

    Your team may or may not have cheated, and YOU certainly ddint cheat, but because your wearing red, you have to wait too.
    I like this analogy. Probably because I think it supports my point. Yeah, people wearing red shirts have cheated in the past and some continue to cheat today. And, yeah, I'm wearing a red shirt.

    But unless the people in charge of the race can show that my team cheated, then they have no right to make me wait for the blue runners. Yeah, punish anyone in a red shirt who cheated, but leave everyone else alone to run the race to the best of their abilities. If everyone plays by the rules and the blue shirted runners still lose, they shouldn't be allowed to carve off a few seconds from their time to make things "fair."

    Why don't you get that you aren't running the race on your merits alone? You got a head start thanks to unfair advantages in the past. No, you didn't ask for it or do anything to get it, but you have it nonetheless. Everyone didn't play by the rules! You got handed a baton with a padded lead, and it had nothing to do with your merits or the merits of those who came before you and had everything to do with fixing the race so that your team would win.

    You can't just wave away the past as if it doesn't fucking matter in the present, because no one with any fucking sense thinks that the past doesn't have a tangible affect on the present. And I know you're not a stupid person, so stop trying to make it out that you're a lone individual upon whom the past has no affect whatsoever. It's not true, and you sound ridiculous pretending that it is.

    wwtMask on
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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Well, the only thing is, racism is still constantly skewing things. So because of that, I am ok with AA in some form. I just am not ok with the whole "hey you have it easier because of your ancestors, so we need to fix that."

    I mean, theres tons of rich, priveledged folks who have a ton more then me, and I dont feel the need to even out the field with them. Am I a bit jealous, sure. But its life, and I know that its not just or fair to attempt to bring them down a notch to bring me up one.
    Why don't you get that you aren't running the race on your merits alone? You got a head start thanks to unfair advantages in the past. No, you didn't ask for it or do anything to get it, but you have it nonetheless. Everyone didn't play by the rules! You got handed a baton with a padded lead, and it had nothing to do with your merits or the merits of those who came before you and had everything to do with fixing the race so that your team would win.

    My issue is that a lot of folks here wouldnt give a crap if the lead was earned by cheating or not. They would say "hey you had a lead, which makes it easier for you to win. So you need to slow up and wait for the others."

    Its also very very difficult to distinquish between what lead was earned and what was cheated. Thats the thing.

    Disrupter on
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  • mythagomythago Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Your team may or may not have cheated, and YOU certainly ddint cheat, but because your wearing red, you have to wait too.

    YOU certainly didn't cheat, but it turns out that the referee deliberately ignored it when you accidentally wandered off the race course, even though blue-shirt runners got called out of bounds every time. It also turns out that when the starting line was set up, you personally got an extra fifteen yards' lead over the blue shirts.

    And now you're complaining you shouldn't have to wait because you didn't cheat ON PURPOSE, and you didn't ask the ref to favor you or give you a starting line.

    AA is about fixing a problem, not punishing the evildoers.

    mythago on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    RE: the race analogy, it's not telling white people to slow down, it's telling them "hey, you got an unfair advantage earlier in the race, so we're just going to give the rest of the runners a bit of a boost to even things out". You got an unfair advantage, and to turn around and complain about others being given help to mitigate that advantage is bullshit.

    RE: class privilege, I have no problem with a regime similar to AA that would reduce the ridiculous advantage that rich people have over everyone else. If nothing else, it would stop the complaining from lower class white people about AA.

    wwtMask on
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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Dude...again, putting the blame on the current "runner" is not even remotely a fair analogy. Putting the blame on previous legs of a relay race is more appropriate.

    I didnt cheat.

    I didnt run out of bounce.

    I simply got handed a batton earlier and now people are telling me my teammates cheated in the past.

    And if AA is about fixing a problem, not "punishing" then I think wording needs to be changed. Stop talking about my "advantages" and start focusing on others "disadvantages"

    Because frankly, its a big difference.

    Yes we need to make sure my leg of the race is fair. Any cheating or disadvantages to the other runners that occured in previous legs need to be removed. I will agree with that. As for my getting the batton earlier. You have a difficult task of convincing me that my lead wasnt earned by better runners and was instead earned by injustice.

    Disrupter on
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  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Why don't you get that you aren't running the race on your merits alone? You got a head start thanks to unfair advantages in the past. No, you didn't ask for it or do anything to get it, but you have it nonetheless. Everyone didn't play by the rules! You got handed a baton with a padded lead, and it had nothing to do with your merits or the merits of those who came before you and had everything to do with fixing the race so that your team would win.
    I didn't ask for anyone in the past to cheat on my behalf. There's no way to even quantify the advantage, if any, that such cheating may have given me.

    So, no, me and my team did nothing wrong. We stepped up to the starting line and followed the rules. I don't see a reason why we should be punished for other teams' past cheating.
    You can't just wave away the past as if it doesn't fucking matter in the present, because no one with any fucking sense thinks that the past doesn't have a tangible affect on the present. And I know you're not a stupid person, so stop trying to make it out that you're a lone individual upon whom the past has no affect whatsoever. It's not true, and you sound ridiculous pretending that it is.
    Sure I can. Because I'm only responsible for my own actions. Past events by people I don't know who are all probably dead anyway should not be used to diasdvantage my in the race I'm trying to run (and where I'm following all the race rules).

    There are going to be winners and losers in every race. So long as the rules apply to everyone and actual cheating is punished, it's not the job of the race officials to try and make sure everyone ends up with the same time.

    Now, maybe if the authority that runs the sport wants to look into making sure that the blue team isn't unfairly disadvantaged when it comes to training for the race, due to past injustices, that's a different matter.

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  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    RE: class privilege, I have no problem with a regime similar to AA that would reduce the ridiculous advantage that rich people have over everyone else. If nothing else, it would stop the complaining from lower class white people about AA.

    And this is where I strongly disagree. With AA in its current form, I get it. Im on the fence for various reasons, but I understand why it exists and what problems its trying to solve. Im just not sure I like the methods.

    But this thought process above is exactly why I have reservations about AA. I dont think its fair to take away someones advantage. They likely earned it. Sure it makes the playing field uneven. But thats the point. We work hard to give our children advantages. If theres policy actively trying to force things back to the status quo, why work hard?

    Its hard to tell with AA where the legit concerns about the balance being unfairly skewed ends and the anger over the balance being skewed at all begins.

    Disrupter on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Dude...again, putting the blame on the current "runner" is not even remotely a fair analogy. Putting the blame on previous legs of a relay race is more appropriate.

    I didnt cheat.

    I didnt run out of bounce.

    I simply got handed a batton earlier and now people are telling me my teammates cheated in the past.

    Are you fucking serious? Read all that you just read. If this happened in an actual sporting event, hell yes you would be penalized. And the thing is, AA ISN'T PUNISHING WHITE PEOPLE. If it were actually punishing white people, there would've been slavery reparations and land seizings, not some fucking quotas for college admissions and hiring.
    And if AA is about fixing a problem, not "punishing" then I think wording needs to be changed. Stop talking about my "advantages" and start focusing on others "disadvantages"

    Because frankly, its a big difference.

    This is just a silly statement. The disadvantages of being a minority are that you're not white and therefore the disadvantages are defined by the advantages that white people give to themselves.
    Yes we need to make sure my leg of the race is fair. Any cheating or disadvantages to the other runners need to be removed. I will agree with that. As for my getting the batton earlier. You have a difficult task of convincing me that my lead wasnt earned by better runners and was instead earned by injustice.

    Again, a silly statement, considering the history of racial injustice of this nation is well documented. What the fuck else can we say if you've read this thread and other AA threads and still won't acknowledge the truth? Or do you really think, like MM seems to, that the past does not and cannot ever have tangible effects on the present?

    wwtMask on
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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Because I'm only responsible for my own actions.

    You can't just say that when things go wrong and you want to dodge any blame that happens to be floating by. You have to mention the positive things that have happened that weren't due to your own actions, too. I'm sure more than a few parents of posters here paid the bulk of their child's college tuition, for example.

    emnmnme on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Because I'm only responsible for my own actions.

    You can't just say that when things go wrong and you want to dodge any blame that happens to be floating by. You have to mention the positive things that have happened that weren't due to your own actions, too. I'm sure more than a few parents of posters here paid the bulk of their child's college tuition, for example.
    I'm not sure that adds anything to this discussion. Yeah, sure, my parents did pay the majority of my tuition. But that didn't take money out of anyone else's pocket or harm some poor black kid.

    How is that related to past injustices directed at non-whites?

    Modern Man on
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  • wwtMaskwwtMask Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    wwtMask wrote: »
    Why don't you get that you aren't running the race on your merits alone? You got a head start thanks to unfair advantages in the past. No, you didn't ask for it or do anything to get it, but you have it nonetheless. Everyone didn't play by the rules! You got handed a baton with a padded lead, and it had nothing to do with your merits or the merits of those who came before you and had everything to do with fixing the race so that your team would win.
    I didn't ask for anyone in the past to cheat on my behalf. There's no way to even quantify the advantage, if any, that such cheating may have given me.

    Wrong. I mean, how many times do the links to studies on racial prejudice need to posted? You may not like the facts, but they are there.
    So, no, me and my team did nothing wrong. We stepped up to the starting line and followed the rules. I don't see a reason why we should be punished for other teams' past cheating.

    Doesn't matter what you asked for, it's there. You're under the mistaken impression that you started this race at the beginning, when in actuality the race began long ago and you're just another in the relay.
    You can't just wave away the past as if it doesn't fucking matter in the present, because no one with any fucking sense thinks that the past doesn't have a tangible affect on the present. And I know you're not a stupid person, so stop trying to make it out that you're a lone individual upon whom the past has no affect whatsoever. It's not true, and you sound ridiculous pretending that it is.
    Sure I can. Because I'm only responsible for my own actions. Past events by people I don't know who are all probably dead anyway should not be used to diasdvantage my in the race I'm trying to run (and where I'm following all the race rules).

    But you seem fine with it if those past actions give you unfair advantages.
    There are going to be winners and losers in every race. So long as the rules apply to everyone and actual cheating is punished, it's not the job of the race officials to try and make sure everyone ends up with the same time.

    The rules don't apply to everyone equally. This is fucking obvious.
    Now, maybe if the authority that runs the sport wants to look into making sure that the blue team isn't unfairly disadvantaged when it comes to training for the race, due to past injustices, that's a different matter.

    How does that in any way fix the fact that cheating in the past means they enter the race BEHIND?

    Like, seriously, explain to me how you mitigate centuries of economic racism that excluded minorities from building wealth while giving vast opportunities to do so to white people. How do you account for the vast amount of wealth stolen from slaves via their labor and given to whites? But hey, it's all in the past, so it doesn't matter, right? Who cares if that stolen wealth enriched white people who didn't earn it, and that said wealth helped build up this country so that white people generations down could benefit from the increased trade and prosperity while blacks were, by law, excluded from it.

    What matters to you is that you're here now, and too bad that shit happened in the past that made the statement "it's really great to be white" true, because it's so unfair that a black person might get an "unfair" advantage when you get none. You know, except that advantage of being white.

    wwtMask on
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  • valiancevaliance Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Disrupter wrote: »
    Well, the only thing is, racism is still constantly skewing things. So because of that, I am ok with AA in some form. I just am not ok with the whole "hey you have it easier because of your ancestors, so we need to fix that."

    the limed part is an important point: racism still exists today! its not all about redressing past wrongs

    point two: redressing past wrongs is still important! even without current day discrimination, AA would still be necessary. (Though if it weren't for the prevalence of current day discrimination I'd be totally OK with non-race based, purely class/wealth/opportunity based AA-- theoretically it should work out to help the most needy, who are disproportionately black)

    point three: intergenerational mobility is important for a society which prides itself on being one of broad opportunity. it is going to necessarily require redistribution of wealth and a finger on the scale sometimes, and I'm ok with that in racial and nonracial setups.

    on the current effects of past discrimination:
    denial_is_so_white.png

    concise.png

    valiance on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Because I'm only responsible for my own actions.

    You can't just say that when things go wrong and you want to dodge any blame that happens to be floating by. You have to mention the positive things that have happened that weren't due to your own actions, too. I'm sure more than a few parents of posters here paid the bulk of their child's college tuition, for example.
    I'm not sure that adds anything to this discussion. Yeah, sure, my parents did pay the majority of my tuition. But that didn't take money out of anyone else's pocket or harm some poor black kid.

    How is that related to past injustices directed at non-whites?

    Can afford bells and whistles to pad resumes. Live in a better-funded school district K-12. Connections and references a poor black kid wouldn't have access to. Blah blah etc.

    emnmnme on
  • DisrupterDisrupter Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    This is just a silly statement. The disadvantages of being a minority are that you're not white and therefore the disadvantages are defined by the advantages that white people give to themselves.

    No offense, but thats bull. There is a difference.

    Advantage: Generations of prosperity have given me a better education, I can use this to get better jobs and continue propering.

    Disadvantage: People named Tyrone are not hired as often.

    Advantage: I have money so I can relocate easier and find a better job.

    Disadvantage: Standardized tests are skewed against minorities, thus they have trouble matching up score wise with others and wont be able to get into college.

    Advantage: My Dad is a successful business man with connections, these connections help me get a better job.

    Disadvantage: Public school systems in poor neighborhoods suck and thus lower class people are not as equipped to compete.


    I could go on. The thing is, I will agree that all the disadvantages need to be fixed and even compensated for. I will not however, completely agree that the advantages need to be fixed or compensated for. My problem is that a lot of people who are pro AA DO think they should be. And thats why I have trouble jumping on board.

    Disrupter on
    616610-1.png
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    wwtMask wrote: »
    What matters to you is that you're here now, and too bad that shit happened in the past that made the statement "it's really great to be white" true, because it's so unfair that a black person might get an "unfair" advantage when you get none. You know, except that advantage of being white.
    Yup. It sucks that groups of people in the past have disadvantaged other groups of people in the past. If slaveowners and slaves were still alive, I'd fully support seizing the formers' property to compensate the latter.

    But our system of law is based around the idea that you can only demand compensation from someone who has actually harmed you. You don't have the right to demand anything from someone just because their ancestors might have harmed your ancestors. And you have even less right to demand that someone compensate you just because they share superficial traits (like skin color) with people who might have harmed your ancestors.

    Enacting a legal ban on discrimination is as far as we can legitimately go to redress past oppression when everyone involved in that repression is dead and buried.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
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