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UN Report on Gaza Flottila is out.

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    Unco-ordinatedUnco-ordinated NZRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Well, I certainly don't feel like "fuck 'em both" is the proper attitude, but I'm also not interested in wringing my hands over the human rights violations of one over the other. In cases like these, it's usually the more affluent and civilized countries that get taken to task, and I think that's completely unfair and sophomoric for people to take that unilateral view of responsibility in this regard.

    Are you kidding me? Let me get this straight, you have the same exact expectations of everyone, regardless of their education or upbringing?

    Sure a lack of education isn't an excuse for doing horrible shit but it is usually the reason why said people do horrible shit, because they don't know any better. Israeli's on the other hand, I assume have access to better education so should realise that oppressing a people is only going to make things worse, not better. They should know better, which is why we have greater expectations of them. I fail to see how that's even remotely unfair.

    Unco-ordinated on
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Well, I certainly don't feel like "fuck 'em both" is the proper attitude, but I'm also not interested in wringing my hands over the human rights violations of one over the other. In cases like these, it's usually the more affluent and civilized countries that get taken to task, and I think that's completely unfair and sophomoric for people to take that unilateral view of responsibility in this regard.

    Are you kidding me? Let me get this straight, you have the same exact expectations of everyone, regardless of their education or upbringing?

    Sure a lack of education isn't an excuse for doing horrible shit but it is usually the reason why said people do horrible shit, because they don't know any better. Israeli's on the other hand, I assume have access to better education so should realise that oppressing a people is only going to make things worse, not better. They should know better, which is why we have greater expectations of them. I fail to see how that's even remotely unfair.

    Because in a pragmatic reality the people being attacked and terrorized TODAY can't wait around a couple of generations (if we're lucky) for Islamic fundamentalists to suddenly become progressives and see reason.

    This is all very much a "blame the victim" mentality, and special pleading because one party is either poorer or less educated than the other. Except everyone who is appealing to that sensibility seems to forget those restrictions on education are largely self-imposed, and the economic situation is largely a failing related to their lack of education.


    If my neighbor was home-schooled and led to believe that stealing and murder was okay, that's not going to stop me from taking forceful action when he threatens my safety or belongings. Or as Edith Sitwell said, "Be patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."

    Atomika on
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    Unco-ordinatedUnco-ordinated NZRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Except if we wanted to actually make that comparison accurate, you'd be beating the absolute shit out of him while all he can do is throw the odd harmless punch. In which case, there probably IS a far better chance of you going to jail than him.

    The restrictions on education are largely self-imposed? Because the people in Gaza clearly have the personel and money required to run schools anyway? When they could barely get basic necessities through Israel's blockade?

    Unco-ordinated on
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    EgoEgo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I'm surprised to hear Atomic Ross espouse the idea that the people are so responsible for the actions of their government that anything (up to and including an act of piracy --the minimal definition of what happened- or war --the maximal) that happens to the people is deserved.

    Hey Ross, you like everything your democrat controlled government has done, right? What's that, you don't? Well, I'd care, but you deserve it. They're your government. You, specifically you (because it's your elected government,) are responsible for everything that happened.

    Hmmm. It sounds like nonsense, when I say it that way. Funny, that.

    Everyone remember this next time Ross complains about a democratic stance on an issue. It's his government. He needs to shut up and take it. It's his fault.

    Ego on
    Erik
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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Raiden333 wrote: »
    Detharin wrote: »
    Maybe if they had used some common sense back in Turkey and decided not to run a blockade this never would have happened. What did they honestly expect Israel to do?

    ...Well, not shoot people lying on the floor in the face, for starters.
    Soldiers aren't perfect machines, free of fear and panic. In a hostile situation, where they were outnumbered and set upon by people armed with clubs and pipes, they're going to make mistakes.

    It should be noted that nobody was harmed on the other ships that decided to cooperate and not violently resist the Israelis. If the people on this boat had done the same, they all would have been able to go home in one piece.

    "It should be noted that the Jews who didn't resist being sent to the concentration camps weren't harmed and if these Jews had done the same they would have all been able to go to their new homes in one piece," said German baker Gerald Gurbing.

    Oh what, no one in the flotilla is in a camp?

    Sorry, just substitute the people in Gaza for that part then.

    Kagera on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited October 2010
    comparing gaza to a nazi concentration camp is not only in staggeringly poor taste but is factually incorrect on a number of levels

    Organichu on
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    KageraKagera Imitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Yeah I let my rhetoric get in the way and I apologize for that.

    Muy malo.

    Kagera on
    My neck, my back, my FUPA and my crack.
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    DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2010

    Because in a pragmatic reality the people being attacked and terrorized TODAY can't wait around a couple of generations (if we're lucky) for Islamic fundamentalists to suddenly become progressives and see reason.

    This is all very much a "blame the victim" mentality, and special pleading because one party is either poorer or less educated than the other. Except everyone who is appealing to that sensibility seems to forget those restrictions on education are largely self-imposed, and the economic situation is largely a failing related to their lack of education.


    If my neighbor was home-schooled and led to believe that stealing and murder was okay, that's not going to stop me from taking forceful action when he threatens my safety or belongings. Or as Edith Sitwell said, "Be patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."

    You do realize that Hamas contributed a large number of it's income into education, medicine and general welfare, especially when compared to corrupt Fatah?

    Why do you think they were elected in the first place?

    DarkCrawler on
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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Organichu wrote: »
    comparing gaza to a nazi concentration camp is not only in staggeringly poor taste but is factually incorrect on a number of levels

    Would you see connections between the isolation of gaza and the isolated sections of some of the cities of Poland?

    Fencingsax on
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    LanlaornLanlaorn Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Organichu wrote: »
    comparing gaza to a nazi concentration camp is not only in staggeringly poor taste but is factually incorrect on a number of levels

    Comparing it to the Warsaw Ghetto would be be shockingly analogous, though, which is insane considering the country involved in this.

    Lanlaorn on
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    CorehealerCorehealer The Apothecary The softer edge of the universe.Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Lanlaorn wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    comparing gaza to a nazi concentration camp is not only in staggeringly poor taste but is factually incorrect on a number of levels

    Comparing it to the Warsaw Ghetto would be be shockingly analogous, though, which is insane considering the country involved in this.

    It's not insane. Israel just has a selective memory is all.

    And so does everyone else in this conflict.

    Corehealer on
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    DacDac Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Dac wrote: »
    Israel did in fact step over the line in its assault and executed a number of civilians. It's clear, and is indefensible (esp. the shooting of injured on the floor). So Asshat points for Israel.

    On the other hand, as others have pointed out, you can't wash the flotilla's hands of all responsibility. While the murders conducted by the Israeli soldiers were criminal, it was also a complete dumbass move to mob up under a helicopter with blunt and edged weapons and fuck with its rappel line. The captain should have ordered everyone to their quarters the second he was aware that a helicopter was going to board.

    I'm not trying to be an apologist for Israel - I think those responsible should pay the price. But it's not like those on the flotilla were being saints, either. In my mind, both sides fucked up.

    I dunno, I can't really expect a bunch of young dudes being attacked with live gunfire in the middle of the night on international waters to behave in a completely rational way. I'd imagine a number of them went above deck just to see what was going on, then got caught up in the mob mentality.

    Attempting a blockade run on Israel was indeed a "dumbass move" and an obvious, even cynical political stunt, but that doesn't in any way make the protesters responsible for what happened to them. To me, it's a lot like blaming the rape victim for wearing a short skirt at night. Yeah, you could argue that they invited the situation by putting themselves in a dangerous position, but that in no way makes them responsible for what happened to them. I for one am happy to assign culpability to whatever douche ordered a nighttime special forces raid on a civilian vessel on international waters, with side helpings to the individual soldiers who apparently thought it a-ok to shoot prone and defenseless guys pointblank.

    While I agree that some punishment needs to be meted out to said douches, the thing redded isn't equatable at all to what happened.

    Dac on
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    BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    The way I see it, some people knowingly performed an illegal act and, when told to stop by authorities, they then attacked and hampered said authorities. Does that give the authorities the right to pillage and murder? No, but then again, I'm not losing sleep over something that could have been prevented by not willfully breaking the law in several ways and instances. It wasn't JUST running the blockade, it wasn't JUST evading arrest, it wasn't JUST hampering the boarding party, it wasn't JUST the assault of the officers with deadly weapons: it was all of that, and at any point along that trajectory they could have stopped and avoided the outcome.

    You understand that the people on the flotila did nothing illegal, right?

    Edit: Other things you got incorrect in this post.

    "It wasn't JUST running a blockade", because no one ran the blockade
    "it wasn't JUST evading arrest", because no one was under arrest

    Burtletoy on
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    valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Israel has the ability to do more to end this conflict than the other parties, I believe, and they refuse to do so. Building homes on land that is supposed to belong to the Palestinians? Why exactly? It seems calculated only to bring that land into their pervue, and make sure they have a stake their to claim it belongs to them later. If they would end this, and take some steps to work with the other parties involved, it would help this peace process.

    Not to excuse rocket attacks, or car bombings or anything else by any other parties, though. Still, they should end the things they do so they at least have the moral high ground.

    As far as the flotilla goes... other than being in international waters, the whole thing sound like your typical military cluster. Things like that happen when guns are involved.

    valhalla130 on
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    lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Israel has the ability to do more to end this conflict than the other parties, I believe, and they refuse to do so. Building homes on land that is supposed to belong to the Palestinians? Why exactly? It seems calculated only to bring that land into their pervue, and make sure they have a stake their to claim it belongs to them later. If they would end this, and take some steps to work with the other parties involved, it would help this peace process.

    From the perspective of those in power, it's both a negotiating chip and a way to appease a certain base. It's akin to the Hamas charter: a stupid thing that they won't change up front without getting concessions from the other side.
    The Hamas Charter is crazy and clearly detrimental to the peace process, but it's also one of Hamas' only bargaining chips with Israel. We can expect them to unilaterally rewrite it just as much as we can expect them to unilaterally recognize Israel as a Jewish state -- i.e., never.

    lazegamer on
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    ChopperDaveChopperDave Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Dac wrote: »
    While I agree that some punishment needs to be meted out to said douches, the thing redded isn't equatable at all to what happened.

    It isn't a perfect analogy because the protesters were purposefully inviting the Israelis to do something dumb. (I don't think anyone expected just how severely dumb that thing would end up being.) The woman in the skirt usually isn't purposefully trying to draw out rapists so she can mace them and then report them to the authorities.

    Still, the point is that the protesters weren't doing anything illegal by sailing out into international waters, they weren't doing anything illegal by ignoring the Israeli warnings to turn back, they weren't illegal in their resistance to the nighttime raid (seeing as every vessel has the right to defend itself against, well, piracy or acts of war), and technically, they wouldn't have been doing anything illegal by running the blockade (seeing as the blockade is considered illegal by international law) or making innocent passage through Israeli territorial waters (though I have no idea if the waters offshore of Gaza are even considered, technically, Israeli territorial waters). Intentionally provocative, cynically political, and not a little dumb, sure, but they were within their rights every step of the way.

    ChopperDave on
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    Hockey JohnstonHockey Johnston Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Burtletoy wrote: »

    You understand that the people on the flotila did nothing illegal, right?

    Edit: Other things you got incorrect in this post.

    "It wasn't JUST running a blockade", because no one ran the blockade
    "it wasn't JUST evading arrest", because no one was under arrest

    I'm curious what you think about this from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602
    "On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.

    Hockey Johnston on
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    SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Burtletoy wrote: »

    You understand that the people on the flotila did nothing illegal, right?

    Edit: Other things you got incorrect in this post.

    "It wasn't JUST running a blockade", because no one ran the blockade
    "it wasn't JUST evading arrest", because no one was under arrest

    I'm curious what you think about this from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602
    "On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.

    You're asking what he thinks about some random guy saying it's legal? I guess I would say "whoop de shit?" The blockade has been deemed illegal by the U.N. so I'll go ahead and side with them, not Joe Shipping from who caresville.

    And has been said over and over, they never even got the chance to try and run the blockade, this was preemptive every step of the way and that makes it very illegal.

    Sentry on
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    DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Burtletoy wrote: »

    You understand that the people on the flotila did nothing illegal, right?

    Edit: Other things you got incorrect in this post.

    "It wasn't JUST running a blockade", because no one ran the blockade
    "it wasn't JUST evading arrest", because no one was under arrest

    I'm curious what you think about this from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602
    "On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.

    You can find several another sources saying how the blockade and the flotilla raid is not legal, including the UN, Amnesty International, the European Parliament and the Red Cross. In addition to dozens of other individual opinions on the thing. Or you could look at the texts by yourself and make a conclusion. It's quite clearly in violation of the Geneva Conventions, and if you want to touch upon the naval part, the San Remo Manual.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_assessments_of_the_Gaza_flotilla_raid

    San Remo:
    The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if: (a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or (b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

    Geneva Conventions:
    52. It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as food-stuffs, agricultural areas for the production of food-stuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.

    (that's only one article out of about five zillion Geneva Conventions articles that make Israel's blockade and it's actions in Gaza illegal)

    Israel is signatory to both treaties and cites them on a semi-regular basis when it's convinient to them. The blockade is not legal. Israel's actions, at international waters or otherwise, were not legal.

    DarkCrawler on
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    BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Sentry wrote: »
    Burtletoy wrote: »

    You understand that the people on the flotila did nothing illegal, right?

    Edit: Other things you got incorrect in this post.

    "It wasn't JUST running a blockade", because no one ran the blockade
    "it wasn't JUST evading arrest", because no one was under arrest

    I'm curious what you think about this from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602
    "On the basis that Hamas is the ruling entity of Gaza and Israel is in the midst of an armed struggle against that ruling entity, the blockade is legal," said Philip Roche, partner in the shipping disputes and risk management team with law firm Norton Rose.

    You're asking what he thinks about some random guy saying it's legal? I guess I would say "whoop de shit?" The blockade has been deemed illegal by the U.N. so I'll go ahead and side with them, not Joe Shipping from who caresville.

    And has been said over and over, they never even got the chance to try and run the blockade, this was preemptive every step of the way and that makes it very illegal.

    Yes, I would say "Well good thing my original point stands fully intact, as the party didn't run the blockade, whether it is a legal blockade or not"

    Burtletoy on
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    ChopperDaveChopperDave Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Whether the blockade is legal or not really depends on what you consider Gaza to be. If you consider Gaza to be a sovereign political entity at war with Israel, then the blockade is legal. If you consider Gaza to be an occupied territory and Israel bound by the international laws of belligerent occupation, then the blockade is illegal.

    The problem, of course, is that Gaza is a clusterfuck. On the one hand it has a democratically elected government that exercises the "rule of law" with paramilitary and police forces and controls the internal infrastructure, but on the other hand it is not recognized internationally as a sovereign state and Israel controls its airspace, sea lanes, electromagnetic spectrum, borders, groundwater, tax revenues, economy, and a bunch of other things I'm probably forgetting. The Israeli government, naturally, loves to split hairs by arguing that they can't be considered an occupying power if they don't have any soldiers on the ground.

    In the end, though, this is all theoretical, de jure stuff. The de facto situation is that Israel is blockading Gaza and no international body has done anything to challenge that.

    Still, the idea that you can intercept a vessel on the high seas bound for a blockaded territories is sketchy at best. The "legal experts" arguing that you can do this are probably the same "legal experts" who vindicate preemptive doctrine, and I don't have a whole lot of respect for that line of thought.

    ChopperDave on
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    OrganichuOrganichu poops peesRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited October 2010
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Organichu wrote: »
    comparing gaza to a nazi concentration camp is not only in staggeringly poor taste but is factually incorrect on a number of levels

    Would you see connections between the isolation of gaza and the isolated sections of some of the cities of Poland?

    that comparison is less ridiculous, yes.

    Organichu on
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    DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Whether the blockade is legal or not really depends on what you consider Gaza to be. If you consider Gaza to be a sovereign political entity at war with Israel, then the blockade is legal.

    Actually, Israel would still be breaking all the same rules about blockades. The Geneva Conventions/San Remo don't really distinguish between sovereign countries and other territories. Israel could blockade say, Tel Aviv, inside it's own borders, were it held by an hostile group, and the same rules would still apply.

    DarkCrawler on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited October 2010

    Because in a pragmatic reality the people being attacked and terrorized TODAY can't wait around a couple of generations (if we're lucky) for Islamic fundamentalists to suddenly become progressives and see reason.

    This is all very much a "blame the victim" mentality, and special pleading because one party is either poorer or less educated than the other. Except everyone who is appealing to that sensibility seems to forget those restrictions on education are largely self-imposed, and the economic situation is largely a failing related to their lack of education.


    If my neighbor was home-schooled and led to believe that stealing and murder was okay, that's not going to stop me from taking forceful action when he threatens my safety or belongings. Or as Edith Sitwell said, "Be patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."

    You do realize that Hamas contributed a large number of it's income into education, medicine and general welfare, especially when compared to corrupt Fatah?

    Why do you think they were elected in the first place?

    How is the education that comes out of a Hamas textbook?

    Evander on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    How is the education that comes out of a Hamas textbook?

    yes I"m sure they're all taught how evil the Zionist arithmetic is.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    The way I see it, some people knowingly performed an illegal act and, when told to stop by authorities, they then attacked and hampered said authorities. Does that give the authorities the right to pillage and murder? No, but then again, I'm not losing sleep over something that could have been prevented by not willfully breaking the law in several ways and instances. It wasn't JUST running the blockade, it wasn't JUST evading arrest, it wasn't JUST hampering the boarding party, it wasn't JUST the assault of the officers with deadly weapons: it was all of that, and at any point along that trajectory they could have stopped and avoided the outcome.

    You understand that the people on the flotila did nothing illegal, right?

    Edit: Other things you got incorrect in this post.

    "It wasn't JUST running a blockade", because no one ran the blockade
    "it wasn't JUST evading arrest", because no one was under arrest

    It's a game of technicalities at this point.

    Some of the people on the ship were members of an organization that has in the past been in league with militants who oppose Israel, and the ship itself was out intent on running the blockade, which is a violation of Israel's law.

    That DOES NOT wash Israel's hands of what they did in any way shape or form, but you also can't sit there and pretend that these people are no different than if they had just been an elderly couple on a stroll through central park when suddenly they get mugged without provocation.



    The provocation was absolutely there. They baited Israel, and Israel took said bait. Israel needs to pay the consequences for their actions, but we shouldn't be encouraging further baiting.

    Evander on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    How is the education that comes out of a Hamas textbook?

    yes I"m sure they're all taught how evil the Zionist arithmetic is.

    The Hamas charter says that Jews control the Rotary Club

    why do you think a Hamas text book wouldn't have random anti-semitism inserted as well? I can tell you, up front, that children's programming in Gaza does.

    Evander on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    It's not baiting someone by existing, unarmed, in international waters.

    Quid on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    You're missing the point. Hamas was elected and remains popular over Israel because they build schools and hospitals while Israel has blockades on cement.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    It's not baiting someone by existing, unarmed, in international waters.

    As long as you continue to insist this, rational discussion can never move forward.

    The purpose fo the flottilla was to get a reaction out of Israel. It was not a Joy cruise that happened to be nearby.



    Let's put the international waters bit to rest once and for all: Would what Israel did have been okay if they had crossed the line in to Gazan waters first?

    If you say no (which I do, personally) then the fact that they were in international waters is really irrelevant. Do you think yelling at Israelis "you committed a crime" is going to make them do anything differently?

    And if you say yes, you're a lying goose.



    Hold Israel accountable for their actions, absolutely. But don't pretend that this was the S.S. Minnow that they were attacking.

    Evander on
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    QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Ooh, a false dichotomy where I only get one choice anyway.

    Thanks for encouraging discussion. I'll go talk with someone else now though.

    Quid on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    You're missing the point. Hamas was elected and remains popular over Israel because they build schools and hospitals while Israel has blockades on cement.

    it's much more complex than that. Hamas' election had a lot to do with Israel insisting on taking full credit for the Gazan pullout (rather than propping up Fatah by giving them some credit.) Hamas decided to claim credit for the pullout, firing on MPs who were there to forcibly remove settlers, etc., in order to give themselves a boost in the polls.



    And you are missing my point besides. Ross (wrongfully) accused the Palestinians of not wanting to be educated. DC countered that Hamas works hard to educate the people. I was pointing out that a Hamas education is not going to do anything to teach the Gazans about the realities of their situation, and that there is any alternative other than fighting (that is on Hamas, though, not the Palestinian people as a whole.)

    Evander on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Quid wrote: »
    Ooh, a false dichotomy where I only get one choice anyway.

    Thanks for encouraging discussion. I'll go talk with someone else now though.

    I'm sorry that reality doesn't fit your preconceptions.

    Evander on
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    KetherialKetherial Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    It's not baiting someone by existing, unarmed, in international waters.

    As long as you continue to insist this, rational discussion can never move forward.

    The purpose fo the flottilla was to get a reaction out of Israel. It was not a Joy cruise that happened to be nearby.



    Let's put the international waters bit to rest once and for all: Would what Israel did have been okay if they had crossed the line in to Gazan waters first?

    If you say no (which I do, personally) then the fact that they were in international waters is really irrelevant. Do you think yelling at Israelis "you committed a crime" is going to make them do anything differently?

    And if you say yes, you're a lying goose.



    Hold Israel accountable for their actions, absolutely. But don't pretend that this was the S.S. Minnow that they were attacking.

    it's bullshit to pretend that it means nothing though, evander. cmon, even you have to admit that.

    if i shoot someone on my lawn for trespassing, it's different if i shoot them in my house and it's also different if i shoot them on the sidewalk in front of my house.

    it's definitely a factor to consider and it's a damning one. crimes don't become crimes based on one single action. there are lots of factors involved and lots of things to consider. the fact that israel jumped the gun and attacked the flotilla even before it entered israel's waters seems like clear evidence of preemptive hostility.

    Ketherial on
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    And you are missing my point besides. Ross (wrongfully) accused the Palestinians of not wanting to be educated. DC countered that Hamas works hard to educate the people. I was pointing out that a Hamas education is not going to do anything to teach the Gazans about the realities of their situation, and that there is any alternative other than fighting (that is on Hamas, though, not the Palestinian people as a whole.)

    No, I was asserting exactly what you were asserting: any education coming care of a government who has annihilation built into the charter has a remarkably low chance of having any substantive practical utility, and especially less so in this case wherein there are such strong appeals to religious doctrine (i.e. "utter, utter bullshit").

    Atomika on
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    AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Ketherial wrote: »
    the fact that israel jumped the gun and attacked the flotilla even before it entered israel's waters seems like clear evidence of preemptive hostility.

    I'll grant you its preemptive status, but your wording would seem to imply the hostility wasn't instigated until Israel arrived.

    You don't have to be caught red-handed to be considered doing something wrong. That's not how moral hazard works.

    Atomika on
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    BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    How is the education that comes out of a Hamas textbook?

    yes I"m sure they're all taught how evil the Zionist arithmetic is.

    The Hamas charter says that Jews control the Rotary Club

    why do you think a Hamas text book wouldn't have random anti-semitism inserted as well? I can tell you, up front, that children's programming in Gaza does.

    Does Hamas own a printing press or something? Do they actually make their own text books?

    Or are you just being a silly goose?

    Burtletoy on
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    Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Ketherial wrote: »
    the fact that israel jumped the gun and attacked the flotilla even before it entered israel's waters seems like clear evidence of preemptive hostility.

    I'll grant you its preemptive status, but your wording would seem to imply the hostility wasn't instigated until Israel arrived.

    You don't have to be caught red-handed to be considered doing something wrong. That's not how moral hazard works.

    This only applies if you consider 1) the blockade to be legal and 2) delivering medicine and building supplies to a destitute populace moral wrong.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
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    DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Evander wrote: »

    Because in a pragmatic reality the people being attacked and terrorized TODAY can't wait around a couple of generations (if we're lucky) for Islamic fundamentalists to suddenly become progressives and see reason.

    This is all very much a "blame the victim" mentality, and special pleading because one party is either poorer or less educated than the other. Except everyone who is appealing to that sensibility seems to forget those restrictions on education are largely self-imposed, and the economic situation is largely a failing related to their lack of education.


    If my neighbor was home-schooled and led to believe that stealing and murder was okay, that's not going to stop me from taking forceful action when he threatens my safety or belongings. Or as Edith Sitwell said, "Be patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."

    You do realize that Hamas contributed a large number of it's income into education, medicine and general welfare, especially when compared to corrupt Fatah?

    Why do you think they were elected in the first place?

    How is the education that comes out of a Hamas textbook?
    Don't know. Equal to what they teach in settler schools?

    For a serious answer, it's not like Hamas is doing the teaching work. There are real teachers in Gaza, in addition to whatever UN and other help workers they got there working with kids. Hamas simply contributes (or used to contribute) money to maintain and built these facilities. I don't think they really work on the curriculum or anything like that.

    I'm pretty sure that such a thing like "Hamas text book" doesn't even exist.

    I mean, that doesn't change the fact that the education is still less then good for the obvious reasons, but saying that the fact that Palestinians being less educated because it's "self-imposed" is retarded. They are less educated because they are have lived in constant poverty and conflict for over half a century. And even despite that they happen to be a lot less radical then most nations in the region on their religious outlook.

    Right here is a pretty good outline on Hamas's social work, though I suppose it doesn't apply as much after the blockade/Gaza War.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Provision_of_social_welfare_and_education

    There is a reason why Hamas is popular. Certain people just don't see past the wharghablablaterroristmuslims. Evil doesn't equal bad administration.

    DarkCrawler on
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    His CorkinessHis Corkiness Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Ketherial wrote: »
    the fact that israel jumped the gun and attacked the flotilla even before it entered israel's waters seems like clear evidence of preemptive hostility.

    I'll grant you its preemptive status, but your wording would seem to imply the hostility wasn't instigated until Israel arrived.

    You don't have to be caught red-handed to be considered doing something wrong. That's not how moral hazard works.
    Boarding a ship without permission is a hostile act by fucking definition. It doesn't matter whether the boardees surrender or not.

    His Corkiness on
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