banshees are awful. awful awful awful. they're like mutas that can cloak and do more damage. but oh! they can't attack air so they're balanced, right? fuck em.
Guek on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
I think the roach buff is a good change. small terran nerfs are fine, just killing the reaper opening more which I have no problem with, I don't think they meant for it to be what it was.
and to whoever said they shouldn't just be looking at ladder... obviously they aren't. I imagine they post that stuff to maybe make people pause and consider how bad things actually are (in that they aren't as bad as most people probably expected) and then say 'but we know you all want some changes so here's what we're doing'
So fuckin protoss can still cannon contain straight off the bat and I have to make a depot before I can even defend myself? That's...fantastic. And by fantastic I mean stupid.
seriously just go proxy yourself a forge in your terran opponents base and oh he can't do shit about it now!
uh, protoss still needs to drop a pylon, wait for that to warp in, drop a forge, wait for that to warp in, and then assuming that he built the damn things in your base, he can start dropping cannons, or he needs another pylon to start building around.
Hmm, can Protoss drop forges before gateways? I never noticed/thought about that. I always assumed they needed a gateway first.
Also, protoss question. Other then building probes and tech what do Protoss players use their boosts for if they are going gate heavy?
I usually can boost probes, tech, stargates and robo units. But I have a very hard time using chrono on my warpgates, usually because I am no where near the gates themselves to apply the boost to. Is this common, or am I a bad protoss player?
Also, protoss question. Other then building probes and tech what do Protoss players use their boosts for if they are going gate heavy?
You can chrono the gates but I think it's hard to find a balance where you're not just wasting chrono-boosts on gates that then become idle due to lack of resources, assuming you have 3-4.
I usually can boost probes, tech, stargates and robo units. But I have a very hard time using chrono on my warpgates, usually because I am no where near the gates themselves to apply the boost to. Is this common, or am I a bad protoss player?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Does hitting W twice not move the screen to the Warpgates? I always hotkey mine so I just use 22 to jump to them.
Considering the current popular strats, the current balance of the game seems to be T>P>Z>T. I get this from talking with people I compete against in tournaments, the outcome of those tournaments, and the general feel of the ladder. It just happens to be backed up by the Diamond Statistics they released.
Right now Ghosts and Marauders do so well against protoss. 3Gate Robo and Forge FE+Pylon Contain does so well against Zerg. Muta/(B)Ling->Ultra/(B)Ling is awesome against Terran.
In my ZvP Matchup, my entire Gameplan is to survive to 3 bases and get Ultralisks out then A-Move to victory. Now that they are going to buff roach range this is going to be a LOT easier. Not only will I be able to survive pushes easier, but I can apply pressure easier.
If this Patch is only these changes then I forsee the balance shifting to Z=>P; T>P; Z>T.
Buddies on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
I think the roach range might mean we see a comeback of Immortals in ZvP. They tear roaches a new one.
The roach change is supposed to give zerg an option to pressure P early game. Currently, I can put 1 zeal and block off. What can zerg do? I can eliminate an infinitely number of lings, and roaches are near worthless with their current range vs a stalker or a cannon.
Even as a P player, this is great news for the matchup in general. As for the supply depot, that's interesting.
I guess that's true. I'm always paranoid about changes that affect matchups with P because P are so middle of the road right now, compared to Z's lolwut and T's kindatoogood
Also, really not sure how I feel about the supply depot change. I guess it's good? It means early reapers will probably be a lot less of a problem, especially with Nitro Packs requiring a Factory.
I just don't see how anyone can call P middle of the road. I think they're right where they should be.
T has an excellent early game, Z an excellent late game. P can pretty much do all of it well, has a lot of flexibility (chronoboooooooost) and all of the T3 units are pretty boss.
The roach change is a good thing. Zerg need it
Sorry, maybe I could have been more clear about that. That's what I meant by middle of the road - in between the others, exactly where they should be. They're balanced, Z are a little underpowered, T may be a little overpowered.
Yeah, I agree, which is a big reason I decided on them after the beta. They feel the most complete to me.
edit: oh yeah, this is why practicing mechanics are 100% better than Build orders because your BO could be completely changed with a balance change; however, your mechanics will not be affected
• The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.
• The reaper speed upgrade will require the Factory, which is meant to weaken a lot of the early terran reaper attacks that dominate so many matches, especially in team games.
Maybe now I'll be able to play a 4v4 without having an enemy go mass reaper every single game.
No kidding. For a few tests, I ran a 4 terran reaper team. It was ridiculous how many games you win right off the bat. Oh, didn't work? We can follow it up with a the biggest bioball in the history of Terran.
Shens on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
Considering the current popular strats, the current balance of the game seems to be T>P>Z>T. I get this from talking with people I compete against in tournaments, the outcome of those tournaments, and the general feel of the ladder. It just happens to be backed up by the Diamond Statistics they released.
Right now Ghosts and Marauders do so well against protoss. 3Gate Robo and Forge FE+Pylon Contain does so well against Zerg. Muta/(B)Ling->Ultra/(B)Ling is awesome against Terran.
In my ZvP Matchup, my entire Gameplan is to survive to 3 bases and get Ultralisks out then A-Move to victory. Now that they are going to buff roach range this is going to be a LOT easier. Not only will I be able to survive pushes easier, but I can apply pressure easier.
If this Patch is only these changes then I forsee the balance shifting to Z=>P; T>P; Z>T.
Personally, I only feel P>Z right now due to the pylon cannon contain thing. It's obviously a huge problem for zerg, but if protoss doesn't do it, then I feel Z has the upper hand. Sure 4 gate is strong, but it is so easily fended off with a few spine crawlers and a bunch of lings (in my experience anyways, and this is me 4 gating with zealots/sentries, which should be optimal against lings). It's really only effective against Z's who try to macro too hard for too long or tech too fast, and IMO they should be punished for that. I do think the cannon contain thing is kind of bull crap, but I'm not sure exactly how you can stop that kind of thing without drastically changing protoss mechanics.
Maratastik on
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
Surprised more people aren't up-in-arms about the Reaper upgrade nerf. Requiring a Factory effectively means it's a no-go.
Considering the current popular strats, the current balance of the game seems to be T>P>Z>T. I get this from talking with people I compete against in tournaments, the outcome of those tournaments, and the general feel of the ladder. It just happens to be backed up by the Diamond Statistics they released.
Right now Ghosts and Marauders do so well against protoss. 3Gate Robo and Forge FE+Pylon Contain does so well against Zerg. Muta/(B)Ling->Ultra/(B)Ling is awesome against Terran.
In my ZvP Matchup, my entire Gameplan is to survive to 3 bases and get Ultralisks out then A-Move to victory. Now that they are going to buff roach range this is going to be a LOT easier. Not only will I be able to survive pushes easier, but I can apply pressure easier.
If this Patch is only these changes then I forsee the balance shifting to Z=>P; T>P; Z>T.
Personally, I only feel P>Z right now due to the pylon cannon contain thing. It's obviously a huge problem for zerg, but if protoss doesn't do it, then I feel Z has the upper hand. Sure 4 gate is strong, but it is so easily fended off with a few spine crawlers and a bunch of lings (in my experience anyways, and this is me 4 gating with zealots/sentries, which should be optimal against lings). It's really only effective against Z's who try to macro too hard for too long or tech too fast, and IMO they should be punished for that. I do think the cannon contain thing is kind of bull crap, but I'm not sure exactly how you can stop that kind of thing without drastically changing protoss mechanics.
Giving Overlords Generate Creep at the beginning would stop it.
Considering the current popular strats, the current balance of the game seems to be T>P>Z>T. I get this from talking with people I compete against in tournaments, the outcome of those tournaments, and the general feel of the ladder. It just happens to be backed up by the Diamond Statistics they released.
Right now Ghosts and Marauders do so well against protoss. 3Gate Robo and Forge FE+Pylon Contain does so well against Zerg. Muta/(B)Ling->Ultra/(B)Ling is awesome against Terran.
In my ZvP Matchup, my entire Gameplan is to survive to 3 bases and get Ultralisks out then A-Move to victory. Now that they are going to buff roach range this is going to be a LOT easier. Not only will I be able to survive pushes easier, but I can apply pressure easier.
If this Patch is only these changes then I forsee the balance shifting to Z=>P; T>P; Z>T.
Personally, I only feel P>Z right now due to the pylon cannon contain thing. It's obviously a huge problem for zerg, but if protoss doesn't do it, then I feel Z has the upper hand. Sure 4 gate is strong, but it is so easily fended off with a few spine crawlers and a bunch of lings (in my experience anyways, and this is me 4 gating with zealots/sentries, which should be optimal against lings). It's really only effective against Z's who try to macro too hard for too long or tech too fast, and IMO they should be punished for that. I do think the cannon contain thing is kind of bull crap, but I'm not sure exactly how you can stop that kind of thing without drastically changing protoss mechanics.
Giving Overlords Generate Creep at the beginning would stop it.
That would be awful. You wouldn't be able to wall off as Protoss.
Considering the current popular strats, the current balance of the game seems to be T>P>Z>T. I get this from talking with people I compete against in tournaments, the outcome of those tournaments, and the general feel of the ladder. It just happens to be backed up by the Diamond Statistics they released.
Right now Ghosts and Marauders do so well against protoss. 3Gate Robo and Forge FE+Pylon Contain does so well against Zerg. Muta/(B)Ling->Ultra/(B)Ling is awesome against Terran.
In my ZvP Matchup, my entire Gameplan is to survive to 3 bases and get Ultralisks out then A-Move to victory. Now that they are going to buff roach range this is going to be a LOT easier. Not only will I be able to survive pushes easier, but I can apply pressure easier.
If this Patch is only these changes then I forsee the balance shifting to Z=>P; T>P; Z>T.
Personally, I only feel P>Z right now due to the pylon cannon contain thing. It's obviously a huge problem for zerg, but if protoss doesn't do it, then I feel Z has the upper hand. Sure 4 gate is strong, but it is so easily fended off with a few spine crawlers and a bunch of lings (in my experience anyways, and this is me 4 gating with zealots/sentries, which should be optimal against lings). It's really only effective against Z's who try to macro too hard for too long or tech too fast, and IMO they should be punished for that. I do think the cannon contain thing is kind of bull crap, but I'm not sure exactly how you can stop that kind of thing without drastically changing protoss mechanics.
Giving Overlords Generate Creep at the beginning would stop it.
Interesting idea, but as Lemming pointed out, very abusable. I'm not sure what they could change to deal with it as I feel the cannon wall off is rather broken. Maybe more maps with wider ramps so they would have to invest even more in the wall off?
Maratastik on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
Considering the current popular strats, the current balance of the game seems to be T>P>Z>T. I get this from talking with people I compete against in tournaments, the outcome of those tournaments, and the general feel of the ladder. It just happens to be backed up by the Diamond Statistics they released.
Right now Ghosts and Marauders do so well against protoss. 3Gate Robo and Forge FE+Pylon Contain does so well against Zerg. Muta/(B)Ling->Ultra/(B)Ling is awesome against Terran.
In my ZvP Matchup, my entire Gameplan is to survive to 3 bases and get Ultralisks out then A-Move to victory. Now that they are going to buff roach range this is going to be a LOT easier. Not only will I be able to survive pushes easier, but I can apply pressure easier.
If this Patch is only these changes then I forsee the balance shifting to Z=>P; T>P; Z>T.
Personally, I only feel P>Z right now due to the pylon cannon contain thing. It's obviously a huge problem for zerg, but if protoss doesn't do it, then I feel Z has the upper hand. Sure 4 gate is strong, but it is so easily fended off with a few spine crawlers and a bunch of lings (in my experience anyways, and this is me 4 gating with zealots/sentries, which should be optimal against lings). It's really only effective against Z's who try to macro too hard for too long or tech too fast, and IMO they should be punished for that. I do think the cannon contain thing is kind of bull crap, but I'm not sure exactly how you can stop that kind of thing without drastically changing protoss mechanics.
Giving Overlords Generate Creep at the beginning would stop it.
That would be awful. You wouldn't be able to wall off as Protoss.
I had "But that might make it overpowered against other strategies"
Then I tried to think of how often my overlord gets to their base before they already have their gate/core or rax wall off already. Some maps/positions it would get their quick, being able to get an Overlord in on Close position Meta/LT would be easy. But I think it would be more of a nuisance than game breaking as I don't think you could get an O-Lord to their ramp before 16 supply on any map. I don't try though because my Olord will be dead if I just flew him over the ramp.
Buddies on
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MaratastikJust call me Mara, please!Registered Userregular
I found it hilarious how effective mass ghost is against ultras.
And how hilariously ineffective carriers are against them. I had like 15 +3 damage carriers and sure they killed all the Ultras, eventually. It took forever to kill off like 6 Ultras.
You know, I love to see Blizz changing things that need fixed (Roaches, and the supply depot change is nice), but I can't help but think that they're just ignoring some very large issues. Such as:
ZERG ARE TOO COMPLICATED. Hell their PR guy said as much: they're not as fun to play. They need to change how the larva mechanic works.
Yay!
forty on
Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
You know, I love to see Blizz changing things that need fixed (Roaches, and the supply depot change is nice), but I can't help but think that they're just ignoring some very large issues. Such as:
ZERG ARE TOO COMPLICATED. Hell their PR guy said as much: they're not as fun to play. They need to change how the larva mechanic works.
Yay!
My favorite part was last week's SotG when they bring up what Chris said about Zerg being "un-fun to play" and they were all like "he's their PR guy that's exactly what you DON'T say!"
I dont get the complaints about Zerg being too complicated. I always sort of thought that was the point. They play completely different then the other races. They require tatics that are much less "build army-destroy enemy army" and far more "pick my battles, hit the enemy where they cant fight back, lure the enemy to their death."
and they have the speed and tools to do so...
Yes this is inherently harder to play, but it makes the game far more diverse.
Disrupter on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I dont get the complaints about Zerg being too complicated. I always sort of thought that was the point. They play completely different then the other races. They require tatics that are much less "build army-destroy enemy army" and far more "pick my battles, hit the enemy where they cant fight back, lure the enemy to their death."
and they have the speed and tools to do so...
Yes this is inherently harder to play, but it makes the game far more diverse.
Different to play is good. Harder to play is bad. The races should all be of equivalent difficulty to play, even if their styles are highly diverse.
I dont get the complaints about Zerg being too complicated. I always sort of thought that was the point. They play completely different then the other races. They require tatics that are much less "build army-destroy enemy army" and far more "pick my battles, hit the enemy where they cant fight back, lure the enemy to their death."
and they have the speed and tools to do so...
Yes this is inherently harder to play, but it makes the game far more diverse.
From my bad player perspective, Zerg just seems a bit too fiddly compared to P/T and compared to SC1 Z vs. P/T.
forty on
Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
I dont get the complaints about Zerg being too complicated. I always sort of thought that was the point. They play completely different then the other races. They require tatics that are much less "build army-destroy enemy army" and far more "pick my battles, hit the enemy where they cant fight back, lure the enemy to their death."
and they have the speed and tools to do so...
Yes this is inherently harder to play, but it makes the game far more diverse.
Different to play is good. Harder to play is bad. The races should all be of equivalent difficulty to play, even if their styles are highly diverse.
Why? Many competitive Fighting Games have characters that are much more difficult to play than others and still manage to be reasonably well balanced for large tournaments.
Are you speaking from a competitive point of view or the simple 'enjoying the game' perspective?
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
This is why you balance around top ~0.1% and not around ladder, urgh. Gonna be a mirror of BW where toss are op at low levels and never wins anything meaningful. Since SC2 seems to be skipping most of the early development shenanigans the BW proscene had.
zerg being harder to play is fine. Zerg having no answer to certain things is not, and the second one might be an issue. If you want to make things different some races will be more difficult than others, like how terran were a lot more difficult to play in sc1.
Watching the last funday monday where the terran couldn't build marines, marauders or tanks felt a lot like playing zerg.
You can kill their army in the open, you can expand all over the map, but if he pushes on you. you lose. Even when you do kill his army you can't push into their base without losing all of yours.
Posts
and to whoever said they shouldn't just be looking at ladder... obviously they aren't. I imagine they post that stuff to maybe make people pause and consider how bad things actually are (in that they aren't as bad as most people probably expected) and then say 'but we know you all want some changes so here's what we're doing'
uh, protoss still needs to drop a pylon, wait for that to warp in, drop a forge, wait for that to warp in, and then assuming that he built the damn things in your base, he can start dropping cannons, or he needs another pylon to start building around.
Thats plenty of time to get a depot and rax up.
Joe's Stream.
Also, protoss question. Other then building probes and tech what do Protoss players use their boosts for if they are going gate heavy?
I usually can boost probes, tech, stargates and robo units. But I have a very hard time using chrono on my warpgates, usually because I am no where near the gates themselves to apply the boost to. Is this common, or am I a bad protoss player?
You can chrono the gates but I think it's hard to find a balance where you're not just wasting chrono-boosts on gates that then become idle due to lack of resources, assuming you have 3-4.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Does hitting W twice not move the screen to the Warpgates? I always hotkey mine so I just use 22 to jump to them.
Right now Ghosts and Marauders do so well against protoss. 3Gate Robo and Forge FE+Pylon Contain does so well against Zerg. Muta/(B)Ling->Ultra/(B)Ling is awesome against Terran.
In my ZvP Matchup, my entire Gameplan is to survive to 3 bases and get Ultralisks out then A-Move to victory. Now that they are going to buff roach range this is going to be a LOT easier. Not only will I be able to survive pushes easier, but I can apply pressure easier.
If this Patch is only these changes then I forsee the balance shifting to Z=>P; T>P; Z>T.
Yeah, I agree, which is a big reason I decided on them after the beta. They feel the most complete to me.
edit: oh yeah, this is why practicing mechanics are 100% better than Build orders because your BO could be completely changed with a balance change; however, your mechanics will not be affected
FUCK.
HAHAHAHAH SWEET TERRAN TEARS
Grats!
No kidding. For a few tests, I ran a 4 terran reaper team. It was ridiculous how many games you win right off the bat. Oh, didn't work? We can follow it up with a the biggest bioball in the history of Terran.
Personally, I only feel P>Z right now due to the pylon cannon contain thing. It's obviously a huge problem for zerg, but if protoss doesn't do it, then I feel Z has the upper hand. Sure 4 gate is strong, but it is so easily fended off with a few spine crawlers and a bunch of lings (in my experience anyways, and this is me 4 gating with zealots/sentries, which should be optimal against lings). It's really only effective against Z's who try to macro too hard for too long or tech too fast, and IMO they should be punished for that. I do think the cannon contain thing is kind of bull crap, but I'm not sure exactly how you can stop that kind of thing without drastically changing protoss mechanics.
B.net: Kusanku
Giving Overlords Generate Creep at the beginning would stop it.
queen ghost carrier infestor.
That would be awful. You wouldn't be able to wall off as Protoss.
Everyone should watch this, if only b/c the death march of 1000000 queens across creep is amazing.
Interesting idea, but as Lemming pointed out, very abusable. I'm not sure what they could change to deal with it as I feel the cannon wall off is rather broken. Maybe more maps with wider ramps so they would have to invest even more in the wall off?
Trus, I haven't been able to watch the replay. How many hatcheries did you have to pump queens like that?
I had "But that might make it overpowered against other strategies"
Then I tried to think of how often my overlord gets to their base before they already have their gate/core or rax wall off already. Some maps/positions it would get their quick, being able to get an Overlord in on Close position Meta/LT would be easy. But I think it would be more of a nuisance than game breaking as I don't think you could get an O-Lord to their ramp before 16 supply on any map. I don't try though because my Olord will be dead if I just flew him over the ramp.
And how hilariously ineffective carriers are against them. I had like 15 +3 damage carriers and sure they killed all the Ultras, eventually. It took forever to kill off like 6 Ultras.
8 or 9 with 2 of them mining
why won't they die
My favorite part was last week's SotG when they bring up what Chris said about Zerg being "un-fun to play" and they were all like "he's their PR guy that's exactly what you DON'T say!"
and they have the speed and tools to do so...
Yes this is inherently harder to play, but it makes the game far more diverse.
Different to play is good. Harder to play is bad. The races should all be of equivalent difficulty to play, even if their styles are highly diverse.
Why? Many competitive Fighting Games have characters that are much more difficult to play than others and still manage to be reasonably well balanced for large tournaments.
Are you speaking from a competitive point of view or the simple 'enjoying the game' perspective?
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
That's why protoss aren't winning anything anywhere except MLG.
This is why you balance around top ~0.1% and not around ladder, urgh. Gonna be a mirror of BW where toss are op at low levels and never wins anything meaningful. Since SC2 seems to be skipping most of the early development shenanigans the BW proscene had.
zerg being harder to play is fine. Zerg having no answer to certain things is not, and the second one might be an issue. If you want to make things different some races will be more difficult than others, like how terran were a lot more difficult to play in sc1.
You can kill their army in the open, you can expand all over the map, but if he pushes on you. you lose. Even when you do kill his army you can't push into their base without losing all of yours.
so many loses