I've been reading for a while, and to Joe's not being promoted situation I don't recall his total number of points being mentioned yet. I think he's skilled enough in the system's eyes to be moved to Silver, but do you think with 1300+ points that number 1 rank is the only place to go, so perhaps he's not skilled enough to the system to be promoted to number 1 in Silver? Same for gold.
i have no idea what you're talking about? i was pretty sure that the points got knocked down a bit, as did your rank when you got promoted.
I don't think that my rank or points are what's holding me back from moving up divisions. If you check out www.sc2ranks.com and look up EnderWiggnz.120 - check out the extended stats on me.
Although, I swear I'm going to be an 1800 bronzer.
Rank and points have no bearing on promotion; they both get wiped out when you get promoted anyway.
You just need to win more games against silver+ players.
I've been reading for a while, and to Joe's not being promoted situation I don't recall his total number of points being mentioned yet. I think he's skilled enough in the system's eyes to be moved to Silver, but do you think with 1300+ points that number 1 rank is the only place to go, so perhaps he's not skilled enough to the system to be promoted to number 1 in Silver? Same for gold.
i have no idea what you're talking about? i was pretty sure that the points got knocked down a bit, as did your rank when you got promoted.
I don't think that my rank or points are what's holding me back from moving up divisions. If you check out www.sc2ranks.com and look up EnderWiggnz.120 - check out the extended stats on me.
Although, I swear I'm going to be an 1800 bronzer.
Rank and points have no bearing on promotion; they both get wiped out when you get promoted anyway.
You just need to win more games against silver+ players.
Points do not. They are weighted differently when you get promoted though.
We discussed it a few pages ago and the prevailing opinion coming from nearly everyone except for Joe is that he isn't winning enough games against people with an MMR higher than his own, or winning enough games against people with an MMR lower than his.
If the system were trying to place him as rank anything silver, he'd be currently playing games against predominantly Silver league players. He isn't. MMR and point totals are not directly related, so he probably needs to start winning games against people who the system considers "better" than him in order to get promoted.
well, there was a minority who voiced this opinion, quite loudly and repetatively. Truth is - no one *really* knows how promotions work, and there are confirmations from blizzard that there are bugs in the system, and promoting too slowly.
I think that its a corner case that the system just isn't built to handle.
but of course, with you're omniscience of the ranking system, i'm sure that you've got it nailed.
I'll either miss queen injections, forget to transfer drones to a new geyser, or leave larva sitting in the hatch.
i know the feeling. And, it rotates. Remember to keep building peons? get supplied block. not supplied block, remembering peons, forgetting to produce units from all buildings. sigh. there are a lot of moving parts to keep track of.
I am often tempted to play protoss and see how easy it is. :P
Seriously though my win rate against protoss is like .00095% for some god awful reason.
Are you going MMM without good Ghost micro? It only takes 1 Storm.
I don't even get that far. It's like oh I'll just push out now
1) lulrays in my base?!
2) oh look an easily destroyed army uhoh it's reinforced and I have no units now!
3)proxy dumb shit
Every single time I've tried void rays against terran, every single one (barring some like, mid game shenanigans) in a 1v1 ladder, these events occur
1. I am scanned, he either sees the stargate or the lack of units
2. I die
This. 1000x this. If you're playing terran, and you're scouting/scanning... you shouldn't get beaten by voidrays. Try hiding your scout at their natural after you check their base out the first time. Then periodically pop into their base. This helps against zealots, proxies, voidrays. Really any time you go to into a base, if you don't see a normal unit mix, they're doing shenanigans.
notmetalenough on
Samael the Radiant Faced-- Official Naming, Going Nuclear, Click on the Quest, Make She Run and Guild Measurements Officer - Clawshrimp & Co, Draenor-US
0
GoodKingJayIIIThey wanna get mygold on the ceilingRegistered Userregular
Pylon warping is a tactical advantage, but a macro-disadvantage.
Explain please.
You can't just control group all your warp gates, hit z, and go back to whatever you're doing. You've got to have a pylon handy, then actively click every unit you want to bring in. That takes time and attention away from other things.
Whereas with Terran, you can just rally everything to one point, hit your hotkeys, then move on.
Pylon warping is a tactical advantage, but a macro-disadvantage.
Explain please.
yeh, i'm not sure what you mean, either. you don't need to dedicate a worker to build a supply depot, or sacrifice and OL, you only need to grab a probe and hit B-E, (shift) click - shift click back on minerals.
Pylon warping is a tactical advantage, but a macro-disadvantage.
Explain please.
You can't just control group all your warp gates, hit z, and go back to whatever you're doing. You've got to have a pylon handy, then actively click every unit you want to bring in. That takes time and attention away from other things.
Whereas with Terran, you can just rally everything to one point, hit your hotkeys, then move on.
Yeah, pretty much this.
If I want to continue macro'ing during a fight, I must look away and create the units. Terran can just hit 4, d, d, d, d, a, a while still watching the fight. Plus, the units are rallied from the building, so you can easily hit 4, click near the fight and you will have reinforcements shortly in that area. As Protoss, you need to warp the guys in, box them, then click wherever you want them to go.
Of course if you fight right on a pylon the macro disadvantage is nullified, but you really can't count on pylons in every 32x32 block of space....
Pylon warping is a tactical advantage, but a macro-disadvantage.
Explain please.
You can't just control group all your warp gates, hit z, and go back to whatever you're doing. You've got to have a pylon handy, then actively click every unit you want to bring in. That takes time and attention away from other things.
Whereas with Terran, you can just rally everything to one point, hit your hotkeys, then move on.
you could do the same thing as protoss, just don't research warpgates.
This is where it's at boys. Best unit or bestest unit?
That picture suddenly becomes ridiculous when you imagine the gargantuan, alien monstrosity having to slice through the tiny little man with its massive, scythe like growths three times before the little man falls apart.
think of it more like it being really hard for something that big to hit a little dude. Big tank or a dude lumbering around in a giant mech suit, yeah those'll get fucked. Little fuckers running around your feet, might take a few swipes to get a clean hit
Pylon warping is a tactical advantage, but a macro-disadvantage.
Explain please.
You can't just control group all your warp gates, hit z, and go back to whatever you're doing. You've got to have a pylon handy, then actively click every unit you want to bring in. That takes time and attention away from other things.
Whereas with Terran, you can just rally everything to one point, hit your hotkeys, then move on.
you could do the same thing as protoss, just don't research warpgates.
I've thought about that, but gateway units have pretty slow build times. I think I'd end up floating a ton of resources, or build too many gateways.
I think it's pretty tough to move warp gates from "when do I get them?" to "do I get them?"
Pylon warping is a tactical advantage, but a macro-disadvantage.
Explain please.
You can't just control group all your warp gates, hit z, and go back to whatever you're doing. You've got to have a pylon handy, then actively click every unit you want to bring in. That takes time and attention away from other things.
Whereas with Terran, you can just rally everything to one point, hit your hotkeys, then move on.
you could do the same thing as protoss, just don't research warpgates.
I've thought about that, but gateway units have pretty slow build times. I think I'd end up floating a ton of resources, or build too many gateways.
I think it's pretty tough to move warp gates from "when do I get them?" to "do I get them?"
Um you guys know you can click on the minimap right? It works for pretty much every ability in the game (although it's more useful with some than others obviously). No need to move your camera around.
Um you guys know you can click on the minimap right? It works for pretty much every ability in the game (although it's more useful with some than others obviously). No need to move your camera around.
Like the same way you can click on the minimap for spawn larvae?
it takes so little time to warp in units, i really can't understand it being considered a disadvantage. Especially when it tells you when the cooldown is done
you folks know you can hold down shift and just spam the hell out of left click after selecting the unit type right?
Sure, I'll click the minimap and hope I hit a pylon, but it still leaves the units not rallied to a certain location. Yes, I could not research warpgates, but then my army becomes seriously weaker because I'm pretty sure mid-late game is balanced around warpgate build times, not gateway (which is why they have the difference so early P isn't too powerful).
I really don't care what people think. I know it requires more APM to do the same actions with Protoss as it does with Terran (in unit creating), so in that light it is a disadvantage, fact.
Yes, it does have its advantages as well, I recognize that and I think others do too. No one is arguing that point.
Pylon warping is a tactical advantage, but a macro-disadvantage.
Explain please.
You can't just control group all your warp gates, hit z, and go back to whatever you're doing. You've got to have a pylon handy, then actively click every unit you want to bring in. That takes time and attention away from other things.
Whereas with Terran, you can just rally everything to one point, hit your hotkeys, then move on.
you could do the same thing as protoss, just don't research warpgates.
I've thought about that, but gateway units have pretty slow build times. I think I'd end up floating a ton of resources, or build too many gateways.
I think it's pretty tough to move warp gates from "when do I get them?" to "do I get them?"
Um you guys know you can click on the minimap right? It works for pretty much every ability in the game (although it's more useful with some than others obviously). No need to move your camera around.
I'm pretty sure you can't actually use the minimap to spawn units from warpgates.
Like 99.9% sure that you almost definitely cannot do that.
Pylon warping is a tactical advantage, but a macro-disadvantage.
Explain please.
You can't just control group all your warp gates, hit z, and go back to whatever you're doing. You've got to have a pylon handy, then actively click every unit you want to bring in. That takes time and attention away from other things.
Whereas with Terran, you can just rally everything to one point, hit your hotkeys, then move on.
you could do the same thing as protoss, just don't research warpgates.
I've thought about that, but gateway units have pretty slow build times. I think I'd end up floating a ton of resources, or build too many gateways.
I think it's pretty tough to move warp gates from "when do I get them?" to "do I get them?"
Um you guys know you can click on the minimap right? It works for pretty much every ability in the game (although it's more useful with some than others obviously). No need to move your camera around.
I'm pretty sure you can't actually use the minimap to spawn units from warpgates.
Like 99.9% sure that you almost definitely cannot do that.
You can't, but that is certainly besides the point.
We discussed it a few pages ago and the prevailing opinion coming from nearly everyone except for Joe is that he isn't winning enough games against people with an MMR higher than his own, or winning enough games against people with an MMR lower than his.
If the system were trying to place him as rank anything silver, he'd be currently playing games against predominantly Silver league players. He isn't. MMR and point totals are not directly related, so he probably needs to start winning games against people who the system considers "better" than him in order to get promoted.
well, there was a minority who voiced this opinion, quite loudly and repetatively. Truth is - no one *really* knows how promotions work, and there are confirmations from blizzard that there are bugs in the system, and promoting too slowly.
I think that its a corner case that the system just isn't built to handle.
but of course, with you're omniscience of the ranking system, i'm sure that you've got it nailed.
I'll either miss queen injections, forget to transfer drones to a new geyser, or leave larva sitting in the hatch.
i know the feeling. And, it rotates. Remember to keep building peons? get supplied block. not supplied block, remembering peons, forgetting to produce units from all buildings. sigh. there are a lot of moving parts to keep track of.
Look, you can be sarcastic all you want, but the fact is that there's evidence that supports the theory that you need to actually win against people ranked higher than you to rank up, which in your case means you need to beat silver league players, because there are only 300 people in the world ranked higher than you in bronze.
At least, the very least there's more evidence for this than there is supporting your assumption that you are some kind of statistical anomaly, and that Blizzard would never assume someone who really sucks at the game could actually become better at it.
We discussed it a few pages ago and the prevailing opinion coming from nearly everyone except for Joe is that he isn't winning enough games against people with an MMR higher than his own, or winning enough games against people with an MMR lower than his.
If the system were trying to place him as rank anything silver, he'd be currently playing games against predominantly Silver league players. He isn't. MMR and point totals are not directly related, so he probably needs to start winning games against people who the system considers "better" than him in order to get promoted.
well, there was a minority who voiced this opinion, quite loudly and repetatively. Truth is - no one *really* knows how promotions work, and there are confirmations from blizzard that there are bugs in the system, and promoting too slowly.
I think that its a corner case that the system just isn't built to handle.
but of course, with you're omniscience of the ranking system, i'm sure that you've got it nailed.
I'll either miss queen injections, forget to transfer drones to a new geyser, or leave larva sitting in the hatch.
i know the feeling. And, it rotates. Remember to keep building peons? get supplied block. not supplied block, remembering peons, forgetting to produce units from all buildings. sigh. there are a lot of moving parts to keep track of.
Look, you can be sarcastic all you want, but the fact is that there's evidence that supports the theory that you need to actually win against people ranked higher than you to rank up, which in your case means you need to beat silver league players, because there are only 300 people in the world ranked higher than you in bronze.
At least, the very least there's more evidence for this than there is supporting your assumption that you are some kind of statistical anomaly, and that Blizzard would never assume someone who really sucks at the game could actually become better at it.
I've been reading this back and forth, would really appreciate Blizz explaining the system. Are they afraid of exploitation? But this seems to make sense. Someone has to be the very best in each division, so maybe Joe is just one of the best damn Bronze players to ever grace the internet.
Any system like this that is explained could and would be gamed by someone. If there is anything Blizzard has picked up on over the years, it's that their customer base is waaaaaay more creative than they are. Joe what is your win/loss versus Silver/Gold players in your last 30-40 games? Better than 50%? I have a feeling that will tell you everything you need to know.
Your rank in a division doesn't mean jack shit because there are hundreds of divisons in each league. They set it up like that so everyone has a chance to feel like they are number one. But then sc2ranks enters the picture and ruins all that.
It annoys me that command centers, orbital commands, and/or planetary fortresses in the same group are all treated as totally different buildings for the purposes of queuing up SCVs.
Pylon warping is a tactical advantage, but a macro-disadvantage.
Explain please.
You can't just control group all your warp gates, hit z, and go back to whatever you're doing. You've got to have a pylon handy, then actively click every unit you want to bring in. That takes time and attention away from other things.
Whereas with Terran, you can just rally everything to one point, hit your hotkeys, then move on.
By this logic, mules are a macro disadvantage compared to SCVs, since you have to actually click on the mineral patch!
Seriously, warpgates allow you to make more units in a shorter period of time. That is a macro advantage, it is a more micro intensive macro advantage, but still an advantage. Just like mineral boosting was an advantage, albeit way micro intense.
It's annoying to be sure, but given how Blizzard built the UI I kind of understand. They are, for all intents and purposes, a completely different building from one another. It would be nice if they could all use a shared Command window (No idea what the technical name for the hotkey grid is) similar to Marines and Marauders.
The only way Joe can put this argument to rest is to go win against a bunch of Silver/Gold players
if he doesn't get promoted after maintaining a 60% WLR vs silver/gold, there's probably something wrong with the league system
go prove me wrong, Joe.
Even if he only goes 50% WLR vs. silver/gold, shouldn't that mean he's due for a promotion since he's at least evenly matched against silver+ players? I don't know how the system works; just saying it would make sense to get a promotion even at about 50% WLR.
I think calling it a macro-disadvantage is awfully strong words. You have to find a pylon, but if you aren't in your base you are attacking, and if you are doing it properly you usually have a forward pylon anyway.
Guys your forgetting basic statistics. SOMEBODY HAS TO BE IN THE TOP PERCENTILE OF THE BRONZE LEAGUE.
You're not winning against the next division enough to get promoted, so you stay in bronze longer than other players and thus you are king of the bronze league.
Posts
That is to say, he's 100th percentile.
Rank and points have no bearing on promotion; they both get wiped out when you get promoted anyway.
You just need to win more games against silver+ players.
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
Points do not. They are weighted differently when you get promoted though.
No Ultralisk was more feared than Billy.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
Steam ID
Twitch Page
Awesome, thanks. I'm pretty sure SEA is Southeast Asia as well, but honestly I've never really thought about it that much
Anzekay: sup! Add yourself to the list and we can catch some games.
Pylon warping is a tactical advantage, but a macro-disadvantage.
Explain please.
well, there was a minority who voiced this opinion, quite loudly and repetatively. Truth is - no one *really* knows how promotions work, and there are confirmations from blizzard that there are bugs in the system, and promoting too slowly.
I think that its a corner case that the system just isn't built to handle.
but of course, with you're omniscience of the ranking system, i'm sure that you've got it nailed.
i know the feeling. And, it rotates. Remember to keep building peons? get supplied block. not supplied block, remembering peons, forgetting to produce units from all buildings. sigh. there are a lot of moving parts to keep track of.
Joe's Stream.
i'm in the top 0.20% worldwide. i'm going to wait until i get that into a 0.0X% number, and then write to blizzard support.
Joe's Stream.
You lose most of the time against Silver players.
Not the system's fault.
This. 1000x this. If you're playing terran, and you're scouting/scanning... you shouldn't get beaten by voidrays. Try hiding your scout at their natural after you check their base out the first time. Then periodically pop into their base. This helps against zealots, proxies, voidrays. Really any time you go to into a base, if you don't see a normal unit mix, they're doing shenanigans.
You can't just control group all your warp gates, hit z, and go back to whatever you're doing. You've got to have a pylon handy, then actively click every unit you want to bring in. That takes time and attention away from other things.
Whereas with Terran, you can just rally everything to one point, hit your hotkeys, then move on.
yeh, i'm not sure what you mean, either. you don't need to dedicate a worker to build a supply depot, or sacrifice and OL, you only need to grab a probe and hit B-E, (shift) click - shift click back on minerals.
how is that a disadvantage?
Joe's Stream.
Yeah, pretty much this.
If I want to continue macro'ing during a fight, I must look away and create the units. Terran can just hit 4, d, d, d, d, a, a while still watching the fight. Plus, the units are rallied from the building, so you can easily hit 4, click near the fight and you will have reinforcements shortly in that area. As Protoss, you need to warp the guys in, box them, then click wherever you want them to go.
Of course if you fight right on a pylon the macro disadvantage is nullified, but you really can't count on pylons in every 32x32 block of space....
you could do the same thing as protoss, just don't research warpgates.
Joe's Stream.
think of it more like it being really hard for something that big to hit a little dude. Big tank or a dude lumbering around in a giant mech suit, yeah those'll get fucked. Little fuckers running around your feet, might take a few swipes to get a clean hit
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
I've thought about that, but gateway units have pretty slow build times. I think I'd end up floating a ton of resources, or build too many gateways.
I think it's pretty tough to move warp gates from "when do I get them?" to "do I get them?"
Um you guys know you can click on the minimap right? It works for pretty much every ability in the game (although it's more useful with some than others obviously). No need to move your camera around.
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
Like the same way you can click on the minimap for spawn larvae?
I did not know that. That's pretty awesome.
you folks know you can hold down shift and just spam the hell out of left click after selecting the unit type right?
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
I really don't care what people think. I know it requires more APM to do the same actions with Protoss as it does with Terran (in unit creating), so in that light it is a disadvantage, fact.
Yes, it does have its advantages as well, I recognize that and I think others do too. No one is arguing that point.
I'm pretty sure you can't actually use the minimap to spawn units from warpgates.
Like 99.9% sure that you almost definitely cannot do that.
You can't, but that is certainly besides the point.
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
Look, you can be sarcastic all you want, but the fact is that there's evidence that supports the theory that you need to actually win against people ranked higher than you to rank up, which in your case means you need to beat silver league players, because there are only 300 people in the world ranked higher than you in bronze.
At least, the very least there's more evidence for this than there is supporting your assumption that you are some kind of statistical anomaly, and that Blizzard would never assume someone who really sucks at the game could actually become better at it.
No, you can't do that. It gives you a "Can't do that via the minimap" message. A cursory googling returns results of players wishing that you could.
I've been reading this back and forth, would really appreciate Blizz explaining the system. Are they afraid of exploitation? But this seems to make sense. Someone has to be the very best in each division, so maybe Joe is just one of the best damn Bronze players to ever grace the internet.
SC2 NA: exoplasm.519 | PA SC2 Mumble Server | My Website | My Stream
if he doesn't get promoted after maintaining a 60% WLR vs silver/gold, there's probably something wrong with the league system
go prove me wrong, Joe.
By this logic, mules are a macro disadvantage compared to SCVs, since you have to actually click on the mineral patch!
Seriously, warpgates allow you to make more units in a shorter period of time. That is a macro advantage, it is a more micro intensive macro advantage, but still an advantage. Just like mineral boosting was an advantage, albeit way micro intense.
You're not winning against the next division enough to get promoted, so you stay in bronze longer than other players and thus you are king of the bronze league.