uh Yea.. im not sure WTF happened from patch day to yesterday, but seems everything went to shit in a hurry at alarming speed.
Patch day everything ran perfectly, everything on ultra, some fps spikes here and there(this is DAL btw), now im getting raped at 4 FPS if im lucky. So i thought ok, too good to be true, ill fix it. Hit recommended, which is a more than half but less than 3.4 settings, and .. its still shit. Maybe i jump to 10. Uh.. WTF. I exit dal, im fine, but this was not the case on patch day.
On to the fun. Decided to man up and heal especially since the guildies wanted to try it out. Got HDTK. Not bad, quite easy. 2 Ret Palys, a Ele shammy, the guilds MT(warrior) and me a holy paly. Everyone in group is essentially all 264 geared, and im on my holy paly slightly less geared than the MT and one of the Ret palys. Uh.. well.. the ret palys didnt go over 5k, which is .. insane considering they would hit 9k no issues at all previously. Tank would go from almost no damage so suddenly getting slammed from trash. One of the ret palys was taking quite a few hits from ripping threat off the tank, which never happens with this guy. Healing was easy, got used to it, really not much to get used to i dont think. Im at a little over 40k unbuffed. Never really ran into issues where i used more than 10% of my mana bar but this was DTK.
Rogue: Mut VOA 10. With all the changes to ARP getting changed to Haste on my gear and the other additions i figured i would be doing some crazy dps. I usually hit 10k+ on Toravaon sometimes hit 12k with the right group. First try, we wiped.. tanks got crushed, Barely hit 6.5. Uh.. ok, while coming close to pulling. Let me try something else. Second time, changed up a few things.. hit 8.. massive threat issues, tanks died, evasion tanked the boss, we won. Uh.. im doing something wrong, def, but thats a big loss in dps right there.
Mage: Random. HHOS. Fire. Oh man, oh man. Paly tank. This was ridiculous. I couldnt do anything at all. I think the DK dps and me took more damage than the tank. Tank wasnt really that geared, which is fine. But only doing a blastwave/instant flamestrike pretty much guaranteed me having something on me. Heaven forbid i actually living bombed as well. 30k hp as a mage sure helps. My mage is doing a bit less, but then things died so fast you really couldnt really use it as a baseline for anything.
Soo.. yea.. im not sure now. Apparently a few classes dps is too low eg Ret that they will be fixing it, and some too high eg Fire mages/shadow priests and they will look into it. I thought the point of a PTR etc was to look out for this stuff. And the graphical stuff. What the heck happened.
Well, the critical mass you get when a patch is posted live sometimes allows them to see issues they didn't see before.
I'm not sure DPS getting way off kilter to one direction or the other on a class to class basis is one of those issues that requires critical mass to detect. Just, you know. Testing.
Soo.. yea.. im not sure now. Apparently a few classes dps is too low eg Ret that they will be fixing it, and some too high eg Fire mages/shadow priests and they will look into it. I thought the point of a PTR etc was to look out for this stuff. And the graphical stuff. What the heck happened.
A lot of people use the PTR, but some don't bother with it too. You're gonna find more bugs quicker when you make it live and every wow player is using it.
Edit: Beaten
Aeyther on
0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
So uh I may have prejudged paladin threat just a bit. When I get in the zone and manage my holy power like a champ, I got up around 17k-20k tps. Though when I fumbled or some jerk pulled off me that plummeted to about 7k tps.
Its all about the ShoR. If you can pull off the constant "CS every other GCD", and you hit ShoR as soon as you have 3 HP, you'll do awesome threat. Soon as you fuck that up, bye bye threat. Judgement, Holy Wrath, and Consecrate really are fillers, they do almost nothing.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
Uh.. well.. the ret palys didnt go over 5k, which is .. insane considering they would hit 9k no issues at all previously.
Then they suck. My DPS has gone up in all situations from the previous patches.
And Ret paladins suffer some of the most from tank threat being so spiky, what with no threat reduction (although maybe all DPS lost this?), and the possibility of suddenly breaking out a 40k crit Templar's Verdict from a happy medium of threat.
until people get into their goddamn thick heads that tanks just can't do the sustained AOE threat on a full pack of trash mobs in heroics than they used to, the complaints will continue to roll.
And I for one welcome their delicious tears of ignorance. This is nothing but a fantastic change. We had an entire expansion where if a tank couldn't hold infinite number of mobs on himself off any kind of sustained DPS, he sucked, and I for one am sick of it.
But only doing a blastwave/instant flamestrike pretty much guaranteed me having something on me.
Thats pretty much what its going to be like. Get used to it.
Uh.. well.. the ret palys didnt go over 5k, which is .. insane considering they would hit 9k no issues at all previously.
Then they suck. My DPS has gone up in all situations from the previous patches.
And Ret paladins suffer some of the most from tank threat being so spiky, what with no threat reduction (although maybe all DPS lost this?), and the possibility of suddenly breaking out a 40k crit Templar's Verdict from a happy medium of threat.
until people get into their goddamn thick heads that tanks just can't do the sustained AOE threat on a full pack of trash mobs in heroics than they used to, the complaints will continue to roll.
And I for one welcome their delicious tears of ignorance. This is nothing but a fantastic change. We had an entire expansion where if a tank couldn't hold infinite number of mobs on himself off any kind of sustained DPS, he sucked, and I for one am sick of it.
But only doing a blastwave/instant flamestrike pretty much guaranteed me having something on me.
Thats pretty much what its going to be like. Get used to it.
Yea sorry, they dont suck. Maybe it was your dps that totally sucked before and you got quite the boost but these guys know what they are doing, not to mention a blue also admitted that ret dps is way too low and will be brought back up. So yea.. try again.
And maybe when you start doing anything above 6k dps and notice that you dont have to do much of anything at all to pull threat in any circumstance even on 1 target, a main target, even a boss mob, maybe then you will realize something is up. Something that was almost impossible before to do with 1 target is quite easy to do now, must tell you something is wrong, but then yea.. its our delicious tears of ignorance.
I honestly think what a lot of people have missed isn't so much that tank threat has been nerfed, but that player threat-reduction has been all but eliminated from talents and the like.
That and people are playing like they used to, and it isn't possible anymore.
That being said, I've done groups with Warrior tanks and Bears and DKs and haven't had a problem as of yet.
I've accepted that my frost dk is an aoe tank now.
sim on
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
edited October 2010
Actually, hes right. Everything you are describing about threat was the case long ago. And it is kind of nice to be back. My only worry is it WILL change at 80 though.
You should NOT be able to drop a huge load of aoe damage and be safe. Aoe should be dangerous, it used to be dangerous. Most AOE classes used to have to hold that massive wad in, and even after considerable time would risk the chance of a few bursts getting them killed. Thats why threat exsists. Threat isnt just something to separate a tank who is literlly ASLEEP from one who has a pecking bird on swipe.
As for single target threat, well, there is ramp up time. Lots of ramp up time. All tanks have it, its called vengence. Plus many of them have stacking shit of thier own that needs to build before they do threat. Unfortunately, you cant instant cast garunteed crit load blow all CDs in the time it takes to hit all those buttons anymore. Unfortunately this means dps is going to be lower because you are waiting in the beginning. If you want big numbers back, wait 15 seconds then reset your meters for dps and you should be fine.
However, class balance is a shitter, but it seems like some people have found ways to make the currently underperforming classes work. I know my shaman is pretty well geared for ele (261 avg ilvl because my relic is 245) and ele is relatively OP right now. Yet, a ret paladin was keeping up with me easilly in a VOA. doing 8-9k.
On my warrior holding aggro on one mob is just as easy as before.
It's when you have 3+!
I have no doubts with that. I have to learn to use different tactics. But even single targetting with a mage, which didnt help with the way they are and getting nerfed, and a rogue which i was doing very bad, was able to pull threat off the main target without an issue is sort of an issue.
Dont get me wrong, its fun to learn all this stuff again. I actually liked BC heroics the way they were setup, and im a healer mainly, so it pisses me off when dps pulls off the tank and makes the tank work harder and me work harder, but something is off. The imbalance with some classes doing insane dps and tanks that have to get used to threat management is causing a problem.
I was never able to rip anything off a tank doing even 12k single target before(bosses in heroics), now i can with around 7k. Thats a huge dropoff in dps but an skyrocket in threat. If that is the case for the rest of the expansion thats fine, but how is that going to work in icc now.
Tanking is tough.. i dont tank but it to me is the toughest portion of the game and gets the most hate. But good tanks are like GODS, GODS i tell you.
Everyone I ran into yesterday I guess was a bad tank or something I am not a fan of the new tanking because it seems not that well thought out.
Brainleech on
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
edited October 2010
Everyone but the great tanks is a bad tank now.
Tanking takes skills. At least warrior tanking does.
Munkus Beaver on
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
So uh I may have prejudged paladin threat just a bit. When I get in the zone and manage my holy power like a champ, I got up around 17k-20k tps. Though when I fumbled or some jerk pulled off me that plummeted to about 7k tps.
Its all about the ShoR. If you can pull off the constant "CS every other GCD", and you hit ShoR as soon as you have 3 HP, you'll do awesome threat. Soon as you fuck that up, bye bye threat. Judgement, Holy Wrath, and Consecrate really are fillers, they do almost nothing.
Yeah this is exactly what I noticed. If some goose managed to fuck up my bash because he didn't give me enough time, then I sucked.
That said, if someone did fuck up saying "guys watch your threat" was enough usually to hold them off.
I'm also noticing the DPS numbers don't really coincide with how much DPS is really going out. People were doing 8k dps and we didn't even get a 2nd mark on saurfang HM. We almost always get a 2nd and sometimes almost a third. Sort of similar to how Arcane mages back in the day would bust out 10,000 dps but damage done would barely be above the tanks. But now the damage done is almost probably 1/3+ more damage than we've been doing in the past without about 25% less dps.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Well its a learning period for everyone. Just like some people love to yell at dps for pulling threat and telling the to learn to play, tanks have to also learn to i guess distribute or generate as much threat as possible. Its a different game right now for everyone. It will be this way for a week or so i would think. Also im noticing not many people have reforged their gear. I havent. So thats also holding me back. I see a lot of people in trade asking what reforging is, so you can assume that this is widespread and some of them are tanks as well.
And this is just heroics. I cant wait for ICC to see how things will be. We are 8/12 in HM, but somehow im not sure we will be getting that this week. I know our feral kitty in our gdkp run was complaining that this dps was a heck of a lot lower, but blues stated they are getting buffed.
Tanking takes skills. At least warrior tanking does.
I am waiting for the point where the first heroic I step into and some goose pulls threat off me because he's not following the kill order properly and he gets gibbed.
What I am not looking forward to is leveling my lowbies that aren't tanks through the LFD. It just means I'll have more shit to deal with.
Warrior tanking is amazing still, though, AoE warrior tanking is probably the worst now. I can deal with this as long as there's a paladin/dk in ICC with me, and they keep that level of trash out of the level 85 raids/dungeons.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
So uh I may have prejudged paladin threat just a bit. When I get in the zone and manage my holy power like a champ, I got up around 17k-20k tps. Though when I fumbled or some jerk pulled off me that plummeted to about 7k tps.
Its all about the ShoR. If you can pull off the constant "CS every other GCD", and you hit ShoR as soon as you have 3 HP, you'll do awesome threat. Soon as you fuck that up, bye bye threat. Judgement, Holy Wrath, and Consecrate really are fillers, they do almost nothing.
Yeah this is exactly what I noticed. If some goose managed to fuck up my bash because he didn't give me enough time, then I sucked.
That said, if someone did fuck up saying "guys watch your threat" was enough usually to hold them off.
I'm also noticing the DPS numbers don't really coincide with how much DPS is really going out. People were doing 8k dps and we didn't even get a 2nd mark on saurfang HM. We almost always get a 2nd and sometimes almost a third. Sort of similar to how Arcane mages back in the day would bust out 10,000 dps but damage done would barely be above the tanks. But now the damage done is almost probably 1/3+ more damage than we've been doing in the past without about 25% less dps.
Well.. maybe.. not sure. Did they possibly mess up HP values of bosses? I know they screwed up with deathwhispers mana shield. The VOA 10 boss was dropping really fast even without a hero even tho only 1 guy was above 10k and that was the boomkin. Oh and i think he gave like 24 JP or something...
Our raid dps is a bit higher, but our priests, warlocks and mages are bringing it way up. I think(?) our rogues and DKs do fairly good too, but I don't notice them as much.
Our tank threat can't keep up.
End on
I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
I can't find my hearthstone in my inventory on any of my characters, and I can't get one from the innkeepers. How do I hearth? The only char I can get around on is my sham
I can't find my hearthstone in my inventory on any of my characters, and I can't get one from the innkeepers. How do I hearth? The only char I can get around on is my sham
Posts
Patch day everything ran perfectly, everything on ultra, some fps spikes here and there(this is DAL btw), now im getting raped at 4 FPS if im lucky. So i thought ok, too good to be true, ill fix it. Hit recommended, which is a more than half but less than 3.4 settings, and .. its still shit. Maybe i jump to 10. Uh.. WTF. I exit dal, im fine, but this was not the case on patch day.
On to the fun. Decided to man up and heal especially since the guildies wanted to try it out. Got HDTK. Not bad, quite easy. 2 Ret Palys, a Ele shammy, the guilds MT(warrior) and me a holy paly. Everyone in group is essentially all 264 geared, and im on my holy paly slightly less geared than the MT and one of the Ret palys. Uh.. well.. the ret palys didnt go over 5k, which is .. insane considering they would hit 9k no issues at all previously. Tank would go from almost no damage so suddenly getting slammed from trash. One of the ret palys was taking quite a few hits from ripping threat off the tank, which never happens with this guy. Healing was easy, got used to it, really not much to get used to i dont think. Im at a little over 40k unbuffed. Never really ran into issues where i used more than 10% of my mana bar but this was DTK.
Rogue: Mut VOA 10. With all the changes to ARP getting changed to Haste on my gear and the other additions i figured i would be doing some crazy dps. I usually hit 10k+ on Toravaon sometimes hit 12k with the right group. First try, we wiped.. tanks got crushed, Barely hit 6.5. Uh.. ok, while coming close to pulling. Let me try something else. Second time, changed up a few things.. hit 8.. massive threat issues, tanks died, evasion tanked the boss, we won. Uh.. im doing something wrong, def, but thats a big loss in dps right there.
Mage: Random. HHOS. Fire. Oh man, oh man. Paly tank. This was ridiculous. I couldnt do anything at all. I think the DK dps and me took more damage than the tank. Tank wasnt really that geared, which is fine. But only doing a blastwave/instant flamestrike pretty much guaranteed me having something on me. Heaven forbid i actually living bombed as well. 30k hp as a mage sure helps. My mage is doing a bit less, but then things died so fast you really couldnt really use it as a baseline for anything.
Soo.. yea.. im not sure now. Apparently a few classes dps is too low eg Ret that they will be fixing it, and some too high eg Fire mages/shadow priests and they will look into it. I thought the point of a PTR etc was to look out for this stuff. And the graphical stuff. What the heck happened.
I'm not sure DPS getting way off kilter to one direction or the other on a class to class basis is one of those issues that requires critical mass to detect. Just, you know. Testing.
A lot of people use the PTR, but some don't bother with it too. You're gonna find more bugs quicker when you make it live and every wow player is using it.
Edit: Beaten
Its all about the ShoR. If you can pull off the constant "CS every other GCD", and you hit ShoR as soon as you have 3 HP, you'll do awesome threat. Soon as you fuck that up, bye bye threat. Judgement, Holy Wrath, and Consecrate really are fillers, they do almost nothing.
We would've understood another patch day. :P
2 days after the patch went live and I'm still trying to patch it up.
Longest patch day ever.
Then they suck. My DPS has gone up in all situations from the previous patches.
And Ret paladins suffer some of the most from tank threat being so spiky, what with no threat reduction (although maybe all DPS lost this?), and the possibility of suddenly breaking out a 40k crit Templar's Verdict from a happy medium of threat.
until people get into their goddamn thick heads that tanks just can't do the sustained AOE threat on a full pack of trash mobs in heroics than they used to, the complaints will continue to roll.
And I for one welcome their delicious tears of ignorance. This is nothing but a fantastic change. We had an entire expansion where if a tank couldn't hold infinite number of mobs on himself off any kind of sustained DPS, he sucked, and I for one am sick of it.
Thats pretty much what its going to be like. Get used to it.
Yea sorry, they dont suck. Maybe it was your dps that totally sucked before and you got quite the boost but these guys know what they are doing, not to mention a blue also admitted that ret dps is way too low and will be brought back up. So yea.. try again.
And maybe when you start doing anything above 6k dps and notice that you dont have to do much of anything at all to pull threat in any circumstance even on 1 target, a main target, even a boss mob, maybe then you will realize something is up. Something that was almost impossible before to do with 1 target is quite easy to do now, must tell you something is wrong, but then yea.. its our delicious tears of ignorance.
That and people are playing like they used to, and it isn't possible anymore.
That being said, I've done groups with Warrior tanks and Bears and DKs and haven't had a problem as of yet.
It's when you have 3+!
Oh, you suck blizzard. You suck.
You should NOT be able to drop a huge load of aoe damage and be safe. Aoe should be dangerous, it used to be dangerous. Most AOE classes used to have to hold that massive wad in, and even after considerable time would risk the chance of a few bursts getting them killed. Thats why threat exsists. Threat isnt just something to separate a tank who is literlly ASLEEP from one who has a pecking bird on swipe.
As for single target threat, well, there is ramp up time. Lots of ramp up time. All tanks have it, its called vengence. Plus many of them have stacking shit of thier own that needs to build before they do threat. Unfortunately, you cant instant cast garunteed crit load blow all CDs in the time it takes to hit all those buttons anymore. Unfortunately this means dps is going to be lower because you are waiting in the beginning. If you want big numbers back, wait 15 seconds then reset your meters for dps and you should be fine.
However, class balance is a shitter, but it seems like some people have found ways to make the currently underperforming classes work. I know my shaman is pretty well geared for ele (261 avg ilvl because my relic is 245) and ele is relatively OP right now. Yet, a ret paladin was keeping up with me easilly in a VOA. doing 8-9k.
I have no doubts with that. I have to learn to use different tactics. But even single targetting with a mage, which didnt help with the way they are and getting nerfed, and a rogue which i was doing very bad, was able to pull threat off the main target without an issue is sort of an issue.
Dont get me wrong, its fun to learn all this stuff again. I actually liked BC heroics the way they were setup, and im a healer mainly, so it pisses me off when dps pulls off the tank and makes the tank work harder and me work harder, but something is off. The imbalance with some classes doing insane dps and tanks that have to get used to threat management is causing a problem.
I was never able to rip anything off a tank doing even 12k single target before(bosses in heroics), now i can with around 7k. Thats a huge dropoff in dps but an skyrocket in threat. If that is the case for the rest of the expansion thats fine, but how is that going to work in icc now.
Wait for 5 sunders!
My characters!
My sweet sweet characters! They're back baby!
Me too, hi5's all around.
Even if it gets better at 85 why should I bother tanking then?
Everyone I ran into yesterday I guess was a bad tank or something I am not a fan of the new tanking because it seems not that well thought out.
Tanking takes skills. At least warrior tanking does.
Yeah this is exactly what I noticed. If some goose managed to fuck up my bash because he didn't give me enough time, then I sucked.
That said, if someone did fuck up saying "guys watch your threat" was enough usually to hold them off.
I'm also noticing the DPS numbers don't really coincide with how much DPS is really going out. People were doing 8k dps and we didn't even get a 2nd mark on saurfang HM. We almost always get a 2nd and sometimes almost a third. Sort of similar to how Arcane mages back in the day would bust out 10,000 dps but damage done would barely be above the tanks. But now the damage done is almost probably 1/3+ more damage than we've been doing in the past without about 25% less dps.
And this is just heroics. I cant wait for ICC to see how things will be. We are 8/12 in HM, but somehow im not sure we will be getting that this week. I know our feral kitty in our gdkp run was complaining that this dps was a heck of a lot lower, but blues stated they are getting buffed.
I am waiting for the point where the first heroic I step into and some goose pulls threat off me because he's not following the kill order properly and he gets gibbed.
What I am not looking forward to is leveling my lowbies that aren't tanks through the LFD. It just means I'll have more shit to deal with.
Warrior tanking is amazing still, though, AoE warrior tanking is probably the worst now. I can deal with this as long as there's a paladin/dk in ICC with me, and they keep that level of trash out of the level 85 raids/dungeons.
Well.. maybe.. not sure. Did they possibly mess up HP values of bosses? I know they screwed up with deathwhispers mana shield. The VOA 10 boss was dropping really fast even without a hero even tho only 1 guy was above 10k and that was the boomkin. Oh and i think he gave like 24 JP or something...
Our tank threat can't keep up.
It could just be that people aren't used to the changes yet, and are still trying to tank the same way they were pre-patch.
Great tanks will adjust right away, good tanks will adjust eventually. Bad tanks will have to go play something else.
Also my UI still seems cartoonishly large (quest window, talent panes, etc) and there doesn't seem to be a built in scaler that I can find.
Go ask an innkeeper for a new one?
It is very reminiscent of BC/vanilla tanking.
As long as that doesn't devolve into "Pally tanks for heroic SH or gtfo" that's a-ok with me.