They've actually said that they made sure the Witch Doctor didn't fill the summoner role of the Necromancer. They want to leave the possibility open for an expansion.
It's one of the few times Blizzard has been markedly forthcoming with information. I'd wager the mechanics and such are already in the works.
I kind of wonder if they ever will add anything like a Summonmancer necro in D3. They're really shooting for a more actiony, visceral/in-your-face feel with D3, and the mechanics of a pet spammer just tend to be comparatively passive and hands-off. It wouldn't surprise me if we just never see anything like that in D3.
I... but...
Didn't I just say that Blizzard outright SAID they were making the Witch Doctor in such a way that it wouldn't step on the Necromancer's toes? It's a forgone conclusion at this point. Check the PA comic about Gabe and horse dicks in regards to Duke Nukem. That'll be me if there's no Necro in a D3 expansion.
I wouldn't take that to mean "we didn't make the WD a summon spammer like the necro because we're making something like the necro later" necessarily. For now I'm taking it at face value: that the WD will not be a summon spammer. But I'm also speculating that a character that fills the role of the D2 necro just might never exist.
As for the "hands-off" comment... I've played a summoning Necromancer and I definitely kept it active. Between controlling the battle with your curses and hitting the happy-corpse-explosion button, there's a lot to do.
As have I, but for the most part you don't need to. Also, even a hands-on summoner doesn't really compare to the intensity and danger present with playing any non-summoner class/spec. "Sit back and periodically refresh debuffs" does not look like the visceral gameplay they're going for in D3. And yes, even corpse explosion is pretty laid back and hands-off when you've got a wall of skeletons in front of you keeping you safe.
There IS offline singleplayer, but theyre discouraging it, and you wont have access to certain features, like the shared stash, pvp arenas, battle.net only achievenents, trading etc.
Is there a source for this anywhere? Everything makes sense for me except for the lack of a shared stash in single player.
Edit: Also, the Witchdoctor seems to have stolen a significant portion of the Necromancer's curses. How would they be able to handle that if they brought the Necro back?
D2 has awesome graphics and a great interface other than the lack of a shared stash.
LOL
The graphics were pretty good...11 years ago! I tried to play again last year for nostalgia and it literally hurt my eyes to look at it for more than 20 minutes. I may be in the minority, but I just can't do it any more.
But "awesome"? Come on.
I stand by it. Awesome. I'm probably in a minority though as I really hate samey 3d "realistic" graphics. I thought Oblivion looked like ass. I did like ME2 which is probably the highest end graphic game I have played (and it really looks good compared to KOTOR which is the first of the genre) but I still think D2 has a better style than ME2.
themightypuck on
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears.”
― Marcus Aurelius
Don't blame blizzard blame the pirates, company wants to secure its property at very little inconveinance to the player.
It's an entirely revenue driven decision that removes options from real customers in order to secure more income for Blizzard. Pirates will still pirate. This is the exact same issue as LAN play in SC2, and here we still are 8 months after SC2's release having to deal with players in major tournaments disconnecting even though they're playing on the same stage less than 20 feet from each other.
You can apologize for Blizzard all you want and shake your fist at those nasty [strike]terrorists[/strike] pirates, the bottom line is that the end product is crippled for the people who buy it because of pure greed.
You can not compare D3 to SC2.
They are completely different games and as far as I've read there has been no mention of LAN play in D3, whether it will be available or not. I don't understand the up-in-arms comments attacking D3's permanent offline characters... just like it was in D2. You couldn't go into single player, hack up your items, and log in online and own people, and you won't be able to do it in D3.
If you want to play online at home on your desktop and offline while travelling on your laptop then you have two separate characters. Your friends you're playing online with probably don't want you outlevelling them while playing on your laptop anyway.
Also, the Witchdoctor seems to have stolen a significant portion of the Necromancer's curses. How would they be able to handle that if they brought the Necro back?
No one is pissed about the permanent offline characters. We're more pissed that offline characters are gimped by having no shared stash. There shouldn't be a reason for it.
urahonky on
0
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
I thought that sort of thing is easy to mod around in offline.
No one is pissed about the permanent offline characters. We're more pissed that offline characters are gimped by having no shared stash. There shouldn't be a reason for it.
Yes there is. Offline play is essentially a single hero in the world. That illusion will be broken by a shared stash. Online it is clear that the game-world you have entered is one with many hero's. Hero's that can trade to eachother.
Also, the Witchdoctor seems to have stolen a significant portion of the Necromancer's curses. How would they be able to handle that if they brought the Necro back?
Man what? Witch Doctor has zero curses. I don't know where you got that from.
Don't blame blizzard blame the pirates, company wants to secure its property at very little inconveinance to the player.
It's an entirely revenue driven decision that removes options from real customers in order to secure more income for Blizzard. Pirates will still pirate. This is the exact same issue as LAN play in SC2, and here we still are 8 months after SC2's release having to deal with players in major tournaments disconnecting even though they're playing on the same stage less than 20 feet from each other.
You can apologize for Blizzard all you want and shake your fist at those nasty [strike]terrorists[/strike] pirates, the bottom line is that the end product is crippled for the people who buy it because of pure greed.
You can not compare D3 to SC2.
They are completely different games and as far as I've read there has been no mention of LAN play in D3, whether it will be available or not.
I'll call right here and now that it won't. You'll start Diablo 3 and get shoved straight into the login screen just like you see on SC2. Once you've logged on once to verify you are a legitimate customer it will reluctantly allow you to make your offline single player character should you not have internet access. That's it. No LAN. Nothing. BNet or bust.
Looking at SC2 is important in order to understand the design and implementation of systems Blizzard is pushing out. Total control over the product.
No one is pissed about the permanent offline characters. We're more pissed that offline characters are gimped by having no shared stash. There shouldn't be a reason for it.
Yes there is. Offline play is essentially a single hero in the world. That illusion will be broken by a shared stash. Online it is clear that the game-world you have entered is one with many hero's. Hero's that can trade to eachother.
I can not trade to my alternate dimension self.
And my illusion will be just fine since MY hero is just that badass. So I get my shared stash now, right?
Yeah, see, that's no reason to have it or not.
Xeddicus on
"For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
Also, the Witchdoctor seems to have stolen a significant portion of the Necromancer's curses. How would they be able to handle that if they brought the Necro back?
Man what? Witch Doctor has zero curses. I don't know where you got that from.
Also, the Witchdoctor seems to have stolen a significant portion of the Necromancer's curses. How would they be able to handle that if they brought the Necro back?
Man what? Witch Doctor has zero curses. I don't know where you got that from.
Also, the Witchdoctor seems to have stolen a significant portion of the Necromancer's curses. How would they be able to handle that if they brought the Necro back?
Man what? Witch Doctor has zero curses. I don't know where you got that from.
None of those are curses. I suppose you could count mass confusion as one, but the other is a fear. Those do not count as actual curses in my book. Especially in the sense of what the Necro had.
And besides, even if you argue that those ARE curses, those are the ONLY two he has.
Hardly a "significant portion" of the Necromancers.
Also, the Witchdoctor seems to have stolen a significant portion of the Necromancer's curses. How would they be able to handle that if they brought the Necro back?
Man what? Witch Doctor has zero curses. I don't know where you got that from.
None of those are curses. I suppose you could count mass confusion as one, but the other is a fear. Those do not count as actual curses in my book. Especially in the sense of what the Necro had.
And besides, even if you argue that those ARE curses, those are the ONLY two he has.
Hardly a "significant portion" of the Necromancers.
The Witch Doctor is going to play a lot like the D2 Necromancer. So it seems hugely unlikely they'd bring him back as he was. Seems to me they'd give him a massive over haul or leave him out. But who knows, maybe they'll copy/paste all the old classes in an expansion!
Xeddicus on
"For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
Doesn't D3 decline to keep track of most corpses in the way D2 did anyway? So if they wanted to do a Necro, they'd have to change something kinda basic about the game while they're at it, in addition to trying to fit him around the Witch Doctor.
Also WD is only known to have at least two Necro-curse-like skills, there may be even more in his final skillset. And most of his other shit also overlaps - summons, wall of undead things, blowing up bodies (of your pets rather than your candidate-pets this time, still similar.)
Also, the Witchdoctor seems to have stolen a significant portion of the Necromancer's curses. How would they be able to handle that if they brought the Necro back?
Man what? Witch Doctor has zero curses. I don't know where you got that from.
None of those are curses. I suppose you could count mass confusion as one, but the other is a fear. Those do not count as actual curses in my book. Especially in the sense of what the Necro had.
And besides, even if you argue that those ARE curses, those are the ONLY two he has.
Hardly a "significant portion" of the Necromancers.
The Witch Doctor is going to play a lot like the D2 Necromancer. So it seems hugely unlikely they'd bring him back as he was. Seems to me they'd give him a massive over haul or leave him out. But who knows, maybe they'll copy/paste all the old classes in an expansion!
But he doesn't play like a Necro. That's the point. If anything, he plays like a Warlock from WoW.
And keep in mind that Blizzard has specifically said that they want Diablo 3 to NOT play like Diablo 2. Expecting any of the characters to carry over in their Diablo 2 form, or one like it, is expecting something that isn't going to happen.
And skills that deal poison damage, and skills that summon undead creatures.
The warlock comparison doesn't strike me as particularly valid; combat is so different from WoW in Diablo games that it's a stretch to make any comparison of playstyles at all, and I've seen no indication of a focus on damage over time spells to the extent of the Warlock.
If anything, the Witch Doctor's playstyle is closest to the DII Druid, minus the shapeshifting tree.
And skills that deal poison damage, and skills that summon undead creatures.
The warlock comparison doesn't strike me as particularly valid; combat is so different from WoW in Diablo games that it's a stretch to make any comparison of playstyles at all, and I've seen no indication of a focus on damage over time spells to the extent of the Warlock.
If anything, the Witch Doctor's playstyle is closest to the DII Druid, minus the shapeshifting tree.
He has 3 spells that could be considered curses. Fear, Confuse, and a slow that also does damage over time. His summons are either short duration, or just one offs that dont actually stick around. The only ones that really stay around for any sort of extended duration are the Mongrels and presumably the Gargantuan.
Otherwise, yes, he has poisons, but also just a lot of DoTs in general , and several direct damage spells like Firebomb, Pit of Fire, Locusts, Firebats, and Spirit Barrage to nuke things down.
Oh, and he has a hex spell via his Fetishes.
So, cast poison/DoT stuff up, have you're Mongrels/Gargantuan tank/help dps/keep things away from you, then start lobbing direct damage spells to finish things off.
Also, the Witchdoctor seems to have stolen a significant portion of the Necromancer's curses. How would they be able to handle that if they brought the Necro back?
They won't bring the Necro back.
They said very specifically that the necro was too perfect a class(a victim of its own success), and they didnt want to cut/paste it, and there was no place to take it.
I should say that my whole view on how the WD plays is based off of both the stuff ive read online, plus my time playing the first 4 classes at blizzcon and my theory crafting based off of that. Sure, hes similar to the Necro, but not the same.
If when the game comes out its obvious that I'm wrong, then I'll have no problem admitting it. :P
So, cast poison/DoT stuff up, have you're Mongrels/Gargantuan tank/help dps/keep things away from you, then start lobbing direct damage spells to finish things off.
Sounds like a Warlock to me.
The issue is that it doesn't sound like you're playing Diablo. In general, combat won't come one enemy at a time, and I'd be astounded if it became normal to put multiple DoTs on individual enemies and then hit them with other spells.
Edit: Yes, there are certainly mechanical similarities. But the playstyle will inescapably be closer to other Diablo games just by virtue of the kind of combat there is in the game, and thematically it's obviously inspired by the necromancer.
So, cast poison/DoT stuff up, have you're Mongrels/Gargantuan tank/help dps/keep things away from you, then start lobbing direct damage spells to finish things off.
Sounds like a Warlock to me.
The issue is that it doesn't sound like you're playing Diablo. In general, combat won't come one enemy at a time, and I'd be astounded if it became normal to put multiple DoTs on individual enemies and then hit them with other spells.
Edit: Yes, there are certainly mechanical similarities. But the playstyle will inescapably be closer to other Diablo games just by virtue of the kind of combat there is in the game, and thematically it's obviously inspired by the necromancer.
True, but the majority of his poisons/DoTs style spells are aoe spells. You don't necessarily need to stack muliple Dots on single enemies when you just blast the whole group with, say, Grasp of the Dead, which slows and does damage over time, and Acid Cloud. Bam, thanks two damage over time spells draining health while in the mean time your bombarding them with firebombs, your zombie dogs, sacrificing said zombie dogs, etc.
Obviously, yeah, the mechanics different than the one enemy at at time mechanics of WoW. But it's still way more hands on than the Necromancer was in D2, and IMO, just feels more Warlock like.
And, I honestly don't see why we couldn't ever see the Necro come back, but if he did it would be in the same way we got the Barb again. Same name, same theme, same "style", but reworked and revamped to fit in the new game.
Even the summoning style is different enough that it would be possible to keep the class feeling different enough from the WD. Necro needs dead bodies, WD does not. They could have him focus on resurrecting dead enemies, as both skeles for fodder and as undead zombie versions, get rid of his poisons all together, and have more bone themed skills. I don't know, use your imaginations.
The game itself works different enough from Diablo 2, what with having 7 active spells going in any given build, that they could turn the Necro into something even more awesome than he was in Diablo 2.
They said very specifically that the necro was too perfect a class(a victim of its own success), and they didnt want to cut/paste it, and there was no place to take it.
That excuse always sounded like such bullshit. The Necro wasn't a masterpiece of design, he was very awkwardly balanced and a bunch of his skills were garbage. Bone spells were essentially useless PvM in the lategame, excepting Corpse Explosion which was initially the most overpowered skill in anything ever. Poison was only somewhat hell viable with very expensive gear. Curses had generally nonsensical scaling, revive AI was often nonfunctional.
The Necromancer had a cool aesthetic but to say there wasn't room for improvement is just a lie.
Well one could easily assume, given (D2:LoD) 2 classes per expansion, but we're just as likely to see something like 2 additional classes in one and then some kind of unique play twist or feature in the other. Or even 1 additional class per expansion along with weird shit.
I wouldn't be surprised to see something like challenge rooms or some type of addition to the PvP arena system come along in one of them.
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As have I, but for the most part you don't need to. Also, even a hands-on summoner doesn't really compare to the intensity and danger present with playing any non-summoner class/spec. "Sit back and periodically refresh debuffs" does not look like the visceral gameplay they're going for in D3. And yes, even corpse explosion is pretty laid back and hands-off when you've got a wall of skeletons in front of you keeping you safe.
Is there a source for this anywhere? Everything makes sense for me except for the lack of a shared stash in single player.
Edit: Also, the Witchdoctor seems to have stolen a significant portion of the Necromancer's curses. How would they be able to handle that if they brought the Necro back?
I stand by it. Awesome. I'm probably in a minority though as I really hate samey 3d "realistic" graphics. I thought Oblivion looked like ass. I did like ME2 which is probably the highest end graphic game I have played (and it really looks good compared to KOTOR which is the first of the genre) but I still think D2 has a better style than ME2.
― Marcus Aurelius
Path of Exile: themightypuck
You can not compare D3 to SC2.
They are completely different games and as far as I've read there has been no mention of LAN play in D3, whether it will be available or not. I don't understand the up-in-arms comments attacking D3's permanent offline characters... just like it was in D2. You couldn't go into single player, hack up your items, and log in online and own people, and you won't be able to do it in D3.
If you want to play online at home on your desktop and offline while travelling on your laptop then you have two separate characters. Your friends you're playing online with probably don't want you outlevelling them while playing on your laptop anyway.
They won't bring the Necro back.
Yes there is. Offline play is essentially a single hero in the world. That illusion will be broken by a shared stash. Online it is clear that the game-world you have entered is one with many hero's. Hero's that can trade to eachother.
I can not trade to my alternate dimension self.
Man what? Witch Doctor has zero curses. I don't know where you got that from.
Looking at SC2 is important in order to understand the design and implementation of systems Blizzard is pushing out. Total control over the product.
And my illusion will be just fine since MY hero is just that badass. So I get my shared stash now, right?
Yeah, see, that's no reason to have it or not.
Got forumites who live in the US and you want to quest with them but you're in the EU? NOPE.
Just seems silly.
The first gameplay video?
Or the official website.
None of those are curses. I suppose you could count mass confusion as one, but the other is a fear. Those do not count as actual curses in my book. Especially in the sense of what the Necro had.
And besides, even if you argue that those ARE curses, those are the ONLY two he has.
Hardly a "significant portion" of the Necromancers.
http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/skills/necromancer-curses.shtml#terror
http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/skills/necromancer-curses.shtml#confuse
That would be exactly 20% of the necromancer's curses.
Also WD is only known to have at least two Necro-curse-like skills, there may be even more in his final skillset. And most of his other shit also overlaps - summons, wall of undead things, blowing up bodies (of your pets rather than your candidate-pets this time, still similar.)
You can knock dudes off cliffs, or break them into a billion pieces.
Might make it harder to corpse explode them.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
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So two curses out of ten is a significant amount?
But he doesn't play like a Necro. That's the point. If anything, he plays like a Warlock from WoW.
Anyone want to beta read a paranormal mystery novella? Here's your chance.
stream
The warlock comparison doesn't strike me as particularly valid; combat is so different from WoW in Diablo games that it's a stretch to make any comparison of playstyles at all, and I've seen no indication of a focus on damage over time spells to the extent of the Warlock.
If anything, the Witch Doctor's playstyle is closest to the DII Druid, minus the shapeshifting tree.
He has 3 spells that could be considered curses. Fear, Confuse, and a slow that also does damage over time. His summons are either short duration, or just one offs that dont actually stick around. The only ones that really stay around for any sort of extended duration are the Mongrels and presumably the Gargantuan.
Otherwise, yes, he has poisons, but also just a lot of DoTs in general , and several direct damage spells like Firebomb, Pit of Fire, Locusts, Firebats, and Spirit Barrage to nuke things down.
Oh, and he has a hex spell via his Fetishes.
So, cast poison/DoT stuff up, have you're Mongrels/Gargantuan tank/help dps/keep things away from you, then start lobbing direct damage spells to finish things off.
Sounds like a Warlock to me.
They said very specifically that the necro was too perfect a class(a victim of its own success), and they didnt want to cut/paste it, and there was no place to take it.
If when the game comes out its obvious that I'm wrong, then I'll have no problem admitting it. :P
The issue is that it doesn't sound like you're playing Diablo. In general, combat won't come one enemy at a time, and I'd be astounded if it became normal to put multiple DoTs on individual enemies and then hit them with other spells.
Edit: Yes, there are certainly mechanical similarities. But the playstyle will inescapably be closer to other Diablo games just by virtue of the kind of combat there is in the game, and thematically it's obviously inspired by the necromancer.
True, but the majority of his poisons/DoTs style spells are aoe spells. You don't necessarily need to stack muliple Dots on single enemies when you just blast the whole group with, say, Grasp of the Dead, which slows and does damage over time, and Acid Cloud. Bam, thanks two damage over time spells draining health while in the mean time your bombarding them with firebombs, your zombie dogs, sacrificing said zombie dogs, etc.
Obviously, yeah, the mechanics different than the one enemy at at time mechanics of WoW. But it's still way more hands on than the Necromancer was in D2, and IMO, just feels more Warlock like.
And, I honestly don't see why we couldn't ever see the Necro come back, but if he did it would be in the same way we got the Barb again. Same name, same theme, same "style", but reworked and revamped to fit in the new game.
Even the summoning style is different enough that it would be possible to keep the class feeling different enough from the WD. Necro needs dead bodies, WD does not. They could have him focus on resurrecting dead enemies, as both skeles for fodder and as undead zombie versions, get rid of his poisons all together, and have more bone themed skills. I don't know, use your imaginations.
The game itself works different enough from Diablo 2, what with having 7 active spells going in any given build, that they could turn the Necro into something even more awesome than he was in Diablo 2.
That excuse always sounded like such bullshit. The Necro wasn't a masterpiece of design, he was very awkwardly balanced and a bunch of his skills were garbage. Bone spells were essentially useless PvM in the lategame, excepting Corpse Explosion which was initially the most overpowered skill in anything ever. Poison was only somewhat hell viable with very expensive gear. Curses had generally nonsensical scaling, revive AI was often nonfunctional.
The Necromancer had a cool aesthetic but to say there wasn't room for improvement is just a lie.
What's PvM?
vs. Monster, synonymous with PvE
Player vs Mom
...it's what you do after multiplayer games.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
deciding a name and a class
and playing diablo yeeeaeaaaaaaaaahhhhh
It's not. Someone mentioned the WD being a lot like the Necromancer, and I argued that its more like a Warlock than the Necro. That's all.
On a completely unrelated note, I wonder if there's any chance of us of us getting more than two new character classes with the expansions.
Would be pretty bad ass if we ended up with 9 total classes.
I wouldn't be surprised to see something like challenge rooms or some type of addition to the PvP arena system come along in one of them.