Is it okay to think Mutalisk harass is too freaking good?
I'm starting to feel bad for using it. Playing against my friends, they don't know how to handle it correctly(as Protoss) and I'm honestly out of suggestions. High Templars, Archons, Stalkers, Phoenix, Photon Cannons.
Is it okay to think Mutalisk harass is too freaking good?
I'm starting to feel bad for using it. Playing against my friends, they don't know how to handle it correctly(as Protoss) and I'm honestly out of suggestions. High Templars, Archons, Stalkers, Phoenix, Photon Cannons.
Those Mutalisks can fit through any hole.
I think the problem with muta harass in PvZ is that storm startup delay.
You do always have the option of killing their base though. Mutas aren't that great when they can't pick their fights.
I wonder if keeping a warp prism to warp in templars to your stalkers is a good idea.
Is it okay to think Mutalisk harass is too freaking good?
I'm starting to feel bad for using it. Playing against my friends, they don't know how to handle it correctly(as Protoss) and I'm honestly out of suggestions. High Templars, Archons, Stalkers, Phoenix, Photon Cannons.
Those Mutalisks can fit through any hole.
Drops/harass are very strong and difficult to protect against especially for lower level players. Heck, a big part of SeleCT's success is that he can do so many drops at once and manage them well. Phoenix harass is also very strong but not quite the same.
FuriousJodo on
FuriousJodo on Twitch/PSN/XBL/Whatever else
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
I really want to put Archons more into my PvZ play. I feel like their heavy +bio damage and splash and tanking ability might make them super useful for supporting colossi (of course that's not even remotely feasible unless you're >= 3 bases).
Managing blink stalkers and finding holes in D with muties takes about the same level of control...better player should just come out on top there imo. Feels like it's pretty well balanced.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
heh, I lost to a random'd zerg because I got a whisper from someone I'd just played with saying 'gg' and I thought it was the guy I was playing (he hit me early with roaches and I defended while getting a cloaked banshee in his base). unlikely that that would win it but I saw 'gg' on the bottom of my screen.
well... I also lost because from there I was sloppy but I stopped macroing for a good 30-40 seconds and wasn't ready when the mutas hit.
then a terran scv+1 marine rushed me but I saw him coming so I ... well I defended beautifully beacuse it's easy to stop if you know it's coming. really glad I saw it though.
actually probably pretty stoppable if you don't see it. he had all his scvs so mine couldn't have done much (not at my level of worker control anyway, I don't really get how to fight with them well) but one marine kills really slowly so whatever tech you were working on, if you spit it out it's over.
Managing blink stalkers and finding holes in D with muties takes about the same level of control...better player should just come out on top there imo. Feels like it's pretty well balanced.
I was late to the daily because I showed my mom boxer vs. fruitdealer
it was worth it though because I was explaining the game to her and every single thing I said tasteless said during the game. I already liked him a lot but that hard boosted my respect for him. you could show someone those games and honestly beacuse of him they'd understand.
thats awesome. but why are you teaching your mom starcraft?
I was late to the daily because I showed my mom boxer vs. fruitdealer
it was worth it though because I was explaining the game to her and every single thing I said tasteless said during the game. I already liked him a lot but that hard boosted my respect for him. you could show someone those games and honestly beacuse of him they'd understand.
thats awesome. but why are you teaching your mom starcraft?
More likely trying to justify time spent on it.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I was late to the daily because I showed my mom boxer vs. fruitdealer
it was worth it though because I was explaining the game to her and every single thing I said tasteless said during the game. I already liked him a lot but that hard boosted my respect for him. you could show someone those games and honestly beacuse of him they'd understand.
thats awesome. but why are you teaching your mom starcraft?
I was pumped from blizzcon and as I was talking about sc games I figured fuck it, let me show you. she got pretty into it actually and it would have been better had the quality not been shit (youtube vid of the stream)
So did a few rounds for the next Funday Monday and had a pretty dang close match where everyone just lost their base. Only buildings left standing were an assimilator and a command center that wasn't finished. 70 minerals would have let me make a pylon to win the game! (Maybe)
And you can get a few storms off before you make them.
They're not going to stop mutas from harassing you, but when you attack with your stalkers, they can quickly negate that muta critical mass.
This is exactly why I want to experiment with them more.
I might stop going Colossus vs. zerg and just start going Templar every game.
Plus, that opens the door to earlier DT harass since I'll be getting the Twilight Council faster, which is a beautiful thing.
I would still go colossus on the small maps. You can still get immortals out too with the colossus build, which is so good if they're going to be doing any roach pushes.
On the large maps though, I think abusing the fact that a templar can warp in with storm ready will be key. Maybe utilize those warp prisms.
Is it okay to think Mutalisk harass is too freaking good?
I'm starting to feel bad for using it. Playing against my friends, they don't know how to handle it correctly(as Protoss) and I'm honestly out of suggestions. High Templars, Archons, Stalkers, Phoenix, Photon Cannons.
Those Mutalisks can fit through any hole.
mutas feel pretty much unstoppable once they hit critical mass. it is possible to prevent that though, and there are points of vulnerability before that point is reached. i had a lot of trouble fending off mutas for a long time but i feel like i'm getting better at dealing with em, even if it is still how most of my losses to zerg occur. what surprises me though is that most zerg players seem really really lax about preventing scouting. mutas can be defended against effectively if you know its coming. if i see a spire, i'll either attack or make a starport and that'll usually get me through it.
Sure that's 2 zealots you coulda had, but it's also templars you can warp in when your stalkers get to his expansion and you're expecting mutas to come and defend.
Re: Watching replays with camera lock on and wondering how they move around and stuff, watch Sens stream his NA account is softball in wierd caps, he has an archived video from a week or so ago of him playing US ladder, watch it to see how he does what he does so goodly
The 10 pool would also do more damage if it happened against the guy who can't make zealots
True.
The more I think about it, the more I like this daily. He has basically said "Play a 2v2, but don't do any cheesy rush." All the real cheeses rely on doubling up on the same unit or on playing different units from different races—well, except for the 4-gate (if you consider it cheese), which could conceivably be pulled off just fine under these rules.
I bet there's going to be a lot of "you make marines, I'll make marauders" going around.
Marauders/Stalkers are pretty goddamn hard to beat. Me and my buddy always lose to it. They use the 4gate timing and just run in with ~30 food armies each and roflstomp.
Btw, I don't know if anyone ever really watches my streams - but I can't promise you won't hear some of the TeamCoco musak the next time I am streaming. (Because you will)
Things I already know I did wrong from watching it
1. Should have rebuilt my natural quicker after it was destroyed.
2. Floated a lot of minerals for a substantial portion of the game, could have sustained higher zealot production out of 1 or 2 more gates
3. Was extremely slow transferring workers when my natural was rebuilt.
Things I did that I like
1. Lots of observers, and had one of the watch towers nearly the entire game. Gave me great map awareness, I saw a lot of things coming before they did anything.
2. I knew I was behind after I lost my natural as I guessed he'd build his own, so I threw down a third expansion at the same time to claw back ahead. I think it worked.
3. I had a lot more workers than him the entire game.
If I missed anything I'd love some constructive criticism.
I'm finally watching the #200 Funday Monday. My favourite part of all these submissions is the one guy who has no idea what the other players are doing for the entire game. Like the Uniden purple Protoss in the last game, who hasn't scouted anyone 15 minutes into the game. It's like, "I'm gonna go into this Free-for-all. I'm not allied with anyone, so there are 2-3 other people in this game who could kill me or each-other at any moment. But that's cool; I just want to build in my base and occasionally expand and build a small army. What's that? Someone left the game? I have no idea why. I haven't even seen an enemy unit yet." The obliviousness is fascinating to me for some reason.
edit: or the guy who was mass cannon rushed and attacked by Mutalisks, who asked "is this a 3v1?". For all he knows the other players could be fighting a massive war across the entire map -- he hasn't left his base.
edit: oh god they don't even know the red guy left
Things I already know I did wrong from watching it
1. Should have rebuilt my natural quicker after it was destroyed.
2. Floated a lot of minerals for a substantial portion of the game, could have sustained higher zealot production out of 1 or 2 more gates
3. Was extremely slow transferring workers when my natural was rebuilt.
Things I did that I like
1. Lots of observers, and had one of the watch towers nearly the entire game. Gave me great map awareness, I saw a lot of things coming before they did anything.
2. I knew I was behind after I lost my natural as I guessed he'd build his own, so I threw down a third expansion at the same time to claw back ahead. I think it worked.
3. I had a lot more workers than him the entire game.
If I missed anything I'd love some constructive criticism.
Congratulations on your win.
I have one piece of advice after that replay; scout more and react to what you see.
You had an observer well placed to see everything - his production buildings, army composition, whether or not he had expanded - but you never really checked any of that.
This allowed him to build lots of vikings when you still had almost nothing but zealots and colossi. You're lucky he liked landing vikings at bad times!
I'm guilty of scouting less than I should, too. It's an easy thing to forget, but very important.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
Were they rolling banelings on creep with support, or what?
He basically spread his army really well, with marauders up front as well, but flanks were pretty useless as he had several smaller groups of marines. Nice kiting too.
It seemed to me his army was larger than the zerg as well though, but that's probably since the mutas are pretty expensive, and can't really fight medivac backed marines with stim.
Things I already know I did wrong from watching it
1. Should have rebuilt my natural quicker after it was destroyed.
2. Floated a lot of minerals for a substantial portion of the game, could have sustained higher zealot production out of 1 or 2 more gates
3. Was extremely slow transferring workers when my natural was rebuilt.
Things I did that I like
1. Lots of observers, and had one of the watch towers nearly the entire game. Gave me great map awareness, I saw a lot of things coming before they did anything.
2. I knew I was behind after I lost my natural as I guessed he'd build his own, so I threw down a third expansion at the same time to claw back ahead. I think it worked.
3. I had a lot more workers than him the entire game.
If I missed anything I'd love some constructive criticism.
Congratulations on your win.
I have one piece of advice after that replay; scout more and react to what you see.
You had an observer well placed to see everything - his production buildings, army composition, whether or not he had expanded - but you never really checked any of that.
This allowed him to build lots of vikings when you still had almost nothing but zealots and colossi. You're lucky he liked landing vikings at bad times!
I'm guilty of scouting less than I should, too. It's an easy thing to forget, but very important.
I saw the vikings coming, but as he had so many marauders my plan was to phase out colossi production and not counter with stalkers in favour of mass chargelot.
Warped in a few stalkers to deal with his viking snipes.
Posts
I'm starting to feel bad for using it. Playing against my friends, they don't know how to handle it correctly(as Protoss) and I'm honestly out of suggestions. High Templars, Archons, Stalkers, Phoenix, Photon Cannons.
Those Mutalisks can fit through any hole.
1) Speedlings
2) Infestors
3) Extra queens
4) Creep tumors everywhere
5) Dead enemies everywhere
Very fun to watch.
I think the problem with muta harass in PvZ is that storm startup delay.
You do always have the option of killing their base though. Mutas aren't that great when they can't pick their fights.
I wonder if keeping a warp prism to warp in templars to your stalkers is a good idea.
Drops/harass are very strong and difficult to protect against especially for lower level players. Heck, a big part of SeleCT's success is that he can do so many drops at once and manage them well. Phoenix harass is also very strong but not quite the same.
Those are like the only ways to prevent mutas from getting out of hand, aside from walking over and killing the guy.
well... I also lost because from there I was sloppy but I stopped macroing for a good 30-40 seconds and wasn't ready when the mutas hit.
then a terran scv+1 marine rushed me but I saw him coming so I ... well I defended beautifully beacuse it's easy to stop if you know it's coming. really glad I saw it though.
actually probably pretty stoppable if you don't see it. he had all his scvs so mine couldn't have done much (not at my level of worker control anyway, I don't really get how to fight with them well) but one marine kills really slowly so whatever tech you were working on, if you spit it out it's over.
mutas are faster, no?
They're basically Thors with the same range as Mutas and a much shorter attack cooldown.
They're not going to stop mutas from harassing you, but when you attack with your stalkers, they can quickly negate that muta critical mass.
thats awesome. but why are you teaching your mom starcraft?
More likely trying to justify time spent on it.
This is exactly why I want to experiment with them more.
I might stop going Colossus vs. zerg and just start going Templar every game.
Plus, that opens the door to earlier DT harass since I'll be getting the Twilight Council faster, which is a beautiful thing.
I was pumped from blizzcon and as I was talking about sc games I figured fuck it, let me show you. she got pretty into it actually and it would have been better had the quality not been shit (youtube vid of the stream)
Still a pretty dang fun match.
I would still go colossus on the small maps. You can still get immortals out too with the colossus build, which is so good if they're going to be doing any roach pushes.
On the large maps though, I think abusing the fact that a templar can warp in with storm ready will be key. Maybe utilize those warp prisms.
because I don't think anyone is stopping either of them
edit - Idra game 2 holy shit! haha awesome
doin somethin different and shit hell yeah
I always thought there was like a build time sort of thing when the warp prism morphed, apparently it's just a short animation.
Also I thought there was a little warm up period of no damage on storms, which is also not true, they start dealing damage right away.
Were these patch changes or was I just always wrong?
also: warp prisms are fucking fast with their upgrade.
mutas feel pretty much unstoppable once they hit critical mass. it is possible to prevent that though, and there are points of vulnerability before that point is reached. i had a lot of trouble fending off mutas for a long time but i feel like i'm getting better at dealing with em, even if it is still how most of my losses to zerg occur. what surprises me though is that most zerg players seem really really lax about preventing scouting. mutas can be defended against effectively if you know its coming. if i see a spire, i'll either attack or make a starport and that'll usually get me through it.
They were always like that, but Warp Prism speed usually isn't worth it just because Warp Prisms are made of recycled paper.
Sure that's 2 zealots you coulda had, but it's also templars you can warp in when your stalkers get to his expansion and you're expecting mutas to come and defend.
Marauders/Stalkers are pretty goddamn hard to beat. Me and my buddy always lose to it. They use the 4gate timing and just run in with ~30 food armies each and roflstomp.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/stream.teamcoco/downloads/Coco-Cam-Muzak.zip <-- amazing
Does anyone have any input?
mvp v ogszenio first up
edit: or the guy who was mass cannon rushed and attacked by Mutalisks, who asked "is this a 3v1?". For all he knows the other players could be fighting a massive war across the entire map -- he hasn't left his base.
edit: oh god they don't even know the red guy left
Congratulations on your win.
I have one piece of advice after that replay; scout more and react to what you see.
You had an observer well placed to see everything - his production buildings, army composition, whether or not he had expanded - but you never really checked any of that.
This allowed him to build lots of vikings when you still had almost nothing but zealots and colossi. You're lucky he liked landing vikings at bad times!
I'm guilty of scouting less than I should, too. It's an easy thing to forget, but very important.
Nice to see!
just not ALL of them like usual
Were they rolling banelings on creep with support, or what?
He basically spread his army really well, with marauders up front as well, but flanks were pretty useless as he had several smaller groups of marines. Nice kiting too.
It seemed to me his army was larger than the zerg as well though, but that's probably since the mutas are pretty expensive, and can't really fight medivac backed marines with stim.
And yes, baneling speed+creep didn't help much.
That was some good micro, don't think more than 2 of his infantry took damage from any single baneling explosion.
I saw the vikings coming, but as he had so many marauders my plan was to phase out colossi production and not counter with stalkers in favour of mass chargelot.
Warped in a few stalkers to deal with his viking snipes.