That one goose is why I wish I could find a new guild.
So sick of my guild, and their bringing shitty family members into the raids that are too busy drooling over the look of thier character to listen, learn, or understand what the fuck is going on.
If I here the one Paladin Healer ask his Tank Brother "Should I roll on that? is that good for me?" one more time over vent I may have to kill someone.
....Any Alliance guild want another Rogue? Please? I'll gladly pay transfer costs -_-
Switch to Horde and come join the Beasts Of Unusual Size on Ravenholdt. Penny-Arcade guilds, FTW.
Why where is the fun in running with people I know from this froum
I know Bigity and Dude with Herpes but then they are on the allaince of Windrunner
Just get +hit until all the numbers are 0 and you're good to go for the next raid tier.
That's assuming you're *gearing* for the next raid tier. What if you're just starting out and gearing for Blackwing Descent?
There needs to be some form of clear explanation - in-game - of what hit rating corresponds to precisely what content. And ideally, without cluttering the UI up with unnecessary information on top of that.
Can we put a moratorium yet on quests where you have to get something with a sub-100% drop rate? And make the things drop for each person in the party? Does someone at Blizzard have a vested interest in making quests that take far too long if you're doing them with one or more friends?
Are there any, any more? There's some old quests that fit the bill - I've had to do a bit of killing from time to time to get my Draconic For Dummies pages - but I can't think of any recent quests that require more than a minimum of kills.
There's a lot of talk about diversity, and the beauty of focusing on different stats, among +hit proponents here, just before the "cap +hit or gtfo, casual" argument drops.
Panda4You on
0
EshTending bar. FFXIV. Motorcycles.Portland, ORRegistered Userregular
Can we put a moratorium yet on quests where you have to get something with a sub-100% drop rate? And make the things drop for each person in the party? Does someone at Blizzard have a vested interest in making quests that take far too long if you're doing them with one or more friends?
Are there any, any more? There's some old quests that fit the bill - I've had to do a bit of killing from time to time to get my Draconic For Dummies pages - but I can't think of any recent quests that require more than a minimum of kills.
There's still plenty in Northrend.
I don't mind it at all. More exp/loot while doing my quests.
Can we put a moratorium yet on quests where you have to get something with a sub-100% drop rate? And make the things drop for each person in the party? Does someone at Blizzard have a vested interest in making quests that take far too long if you're doing them with one or more friends?
Are there any, any more? There's some old quests that fit the bill - I've had to do a bit of killing from time to time to get my Draconic For Dummies pages - but I can't think of any recent quests that require more than a minimum of kills.
There's still plenty in Northrend.
I don't mind it at all. More exp/loot while doing my quests.
I have yet to see any quests in Northrend that come close to Fordring, Ony Attune or the like. Even BC Attune Quests were quick and easy in terms of lengths you just had to be able to kill some bosses.
Jubal77 on
0
Kevin CristI make the devil hit his kneesand say the 'our father'Registered Userregular
Can we put a moratorium yet on quests where you have to get something with a sub-100% drop rate? And make the things drop for each person in the party? Does someone at Blizzard have a vested interest in making quests that take far too long if you're doing them with one or more friends?
Are there any, any more? There's some old quests that fit the bill - I've had to do a bit of killing from time to time to get my Draconic For Dummies pages - but I can't think of any recent quests that require more than a minimum of kills.
There's still plenty in Northrend.
I don't mind it at all. More exp/loot while doing my quests.
I have yet to see any quests in Northrend that come close to Fordring, Ony Attune or the like. Even BC Attune Quests were quick and easy in terms of lengths you just had to be able to kill some bosses.
I was speaking more in general.
Anyone remember how bad the drop rate for the Yeti quest in Winterspring was?
Can we put a moratorium yet on quests where you have to get something with a sub-100% drop rate? And make the things drop for each person in the party? Does someone at Blizzard have a vested interest in making quests that take far too long if you're doing them with one or more friends?
Are there any, any more? There's some old quests that fit the bill - I've had to do a bit of killing from time to time to get my Draconic For Dummies pages - but I can't think of any recent quests that require more than a minimum of kills.
There's still plenty in Northrend.
I don't mind it at all. More exp/loot while doing my quests.
I have yet to see any quests in Northrend that come close to Fordring, Ony Attune or the like. Even BC Attune Quests were quick and easy in terms of lengths you just had to be able to kill some bosses.
I was speaking more in general.
Anyone remember how bad the drop rate for the Yeti quest in Winterspring was?
Hit is too binary for casters. Melee at least have yellow cap vs. white, whereas caster either have cap or don't.
There's so little nuance to the point where you can't give any for up another stat unless you are capped. The fact we need more each tier doesn't improve on anything. Hit needs to do something else for casters if it is going to be a secondary stat.
Sterica on
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Can we put a moratorium yet on quests where you have to get something with a sub-100% drop rate? And make the things drop for each person in the party? Does someone at Blizzard have a vested interest in making quests that take far too long if you're doing them with one or more friends?
Are there any, any more? There's some old quests that fit the bill - I've had to do a bit of killing from time to time to get my Draconic For Dummies pages - but I can't think of any recent quests that require more than a minimum of kills.
There's still plenty in Northrend.
I don't mind it at all. More exp/loot while doing my quests.
I have yet to see any quests in Northrend that come close to Fordring, Ony Attune or the like. Even BC Attune Quests were quick and easy in terms of lengths you just had to be able to kill some bosses.
I was speaking more in general.
Anyone remember how bad the drop rate for the Yeti quest in Winterspring was?
The Aged Gorilla Sinew haunts my soul.
Fucking scrubs whining about loot drops. Go play FreeRealms if you want 100% drop rate, damn casuals.
Anyone remember how bad the drop rate for the Yeti quest in Winterspring was?
Heck, remember the key to Shaky's Foot ? Used to clear those stinking ogre camps three times over before it dropped. Back when the mobs were elite. In the snow. With a geth sniper shooting at me.
Anyone remember how bad the drop rate for the Yeti quest in Winterspring was?
Heck, remember the key to Shaky's Foot ? Used to clear those stinking ogre camps three times over before it dropped. Back when the mobs were elite. In the snow. With a geth sniper shooting at me.
Stuff like armor penetration was done away with because it was less of a choice and more of a "you must stack this or not use it ever" which doesn't jibe well with the idea that every stat is useful and if you have enough of one stat you can make the decision to reforge or regem or re-enchant into one that is more powerful for you. Hit is not a binary decision like Armor Penetration was.
The boss leveling up with Hit further supports the "gear should be interesting/fun" thang.
Hit is actually quite binary. It is by far the best stat until you cap it, at which point any more hit becomes 100% useless unless you're a dual wielder. Then there's the fact that you have two separate, independent hit stats for melee that follow the same binary principles. I can't say it really adds any interesting depth to the game. It's just a gear-juggling exercise when you're standing around in a capital city outside of raids.
Stuff like armor penetration was done away with because it was less of a choice and more of a "you must stack this or not use it ever" which doesn't jibe well with the idea that every stat is useful and if you have enough of one stat you can make the decision to reforge or regem or re-enchant into one that is more powerful for you. Hit is not a binary decision like Armor Penetration was.
The boss leveling up with Hit further supports the "gear should be interesting/fun" thang.
Hit is actually quite binary. It is by far the best stat until you cap it, at which point any more hit becomes 100% useless unless you're a dual wielder. Then there's the fact that you have two separate, independent hit stats for melee that follow the same binary principles. I can't say it really adds any interesting depth to the game. It's just a gear-juggling exercise when you're standing around in a capital city outside of raids.
It may shock and appall you to learn that some people actually find that gear-juggling exercise to add "interesting depth."
Here, I just quickly made a mock up of what the UI would look like with another tier of +hit (number made up of course):
It's not that hard to figure out, seriously. Just get +hit until all the numbers are 0 and you're good to go for the next raid tier.
As I look at that, I can think of a good 10 guildies in my current guild who will look at it and say "What does skull + 1 mean?". The problem at Blizzard's end is how they convey the necessary information (If you're in x instance, this is your hit cap) in a way that's both clear and streamlined. Since part of the point of this overhaul was to ensure that there was enough information *in the game* to be able to make adequate decisions - without having to resort to EJ's theorycrafting, or slog it out on your own - but the sheer quantity of information they'll have to cram into that tooltip when T13/14 hits will be pretty expansive.
Another thing...based on this UI, doesn't that imply that T11 will be 88, T12 will be 89, T13 will be 90?
On the one hand, I know that's not necessarily true, but at the same time, fighting Deathwing who'll be 5/6 levels above us? Sounds epic.
What they should do is use different colored skulls for each tier, should be easy to match up where you are with what you need that way.
If it +hit is so interesting/fun, why are healers not clamoring for its requirement for their job? Or tanks clamoring for the return of +def?
The reason Haste and Crit work is the arguments in favor of either or. Instead of crit, I could equip gear with more haste. But with +hit, if you don't have enough, you don't have enough. You don't want to swap out +hit for something else if you havn't hit that cap. And once you hit that cap, you desperately want to avoid it. Its not a decision, its a requirement.
Stuff like armor penetration was done away with because it was less of a choice and more of a "you must stack this or not use it ever" which doesn't jibe well with the idea that every stat is useful and if you have enough of one stat you can make the decision to reforge or regem or re-enchant into one that is more powerful for you. Hit is not a binary decision like Armor Penetration was.
The boss leveling up with Hit further supports the "gear should be interesting/fun" thang.
Hit is actually quite binary. It is by far the best stat until you cap it, at which point any more hit becomes 100% useless unless you're a dual wielder. Then there's the fact that you have two separate, independent hit stats for melee that follow the same binary principles. I can't say it really adds any interesting depth to the game. It's just a gear-juggling exercise when you're standing around in a capital city outside of raids.
What stat isnt? All stats have improve an area(s) by a set amount. Hit in the expansion will be the method to lower the inflation on gear stats. Its simple enough to see. Tell me forty, and I am not being snide because I never have played melee in raids, what are the two independed hit stats for melee? White dmg and special attacks? Because I always thought that special attacks hit cap was extremely low. For hybrids you get hit with the spell cap but for pure melee I thought it was always just hit cap for white dmg that was capped.
Ok So a RL buddy and I are trying to start raiding guild alliance side on a horde dominated server. I have only been in pugs for raids but my friend has been doing it hardcore since vanilla. Any advise to get it off the ground? Not planning on doing anything serious till Cata and we already have vent and a website.
Stuff like armor penetration was done away with because it was less of a choice and more of a "you must stack this or not use it ever" which doesn't jibe well with the idea that every stat is useful and if you have enough of one stat you can make the decision to reforge or regem or re-enchant into one that is more powerful for you. Hit is not a binary decision like Armor Penetration was.
The boss leveling up with Hit further supports the "gear should be interesting/fun" thang.
Hit is actually quite binary. It is by far the best stat until you cap it, at which point any more hit becomes 100% useless unless you're a dual wielder. Then there's the fact that you have two separate, independent hit stats for melee that follow the same binary principles. I can't say it really adds any interesting depth to the game. It's just a gear-juggling exercise when you're standing around in a capital city outside of raids.
What stat isnt? All stats have improve an area(s) by a set amount. Hit in the expansion will be the method to lower the inflation on gear stats. Its simple enough to see. Tell me forty, and I am not being snide because I never have played melee in raids, what are the two independed hit stats for melee? White dmg and special attacks? Because I always thought that special attacks hit cap was extremely low. For hybrids you get hit with the spell cap but for pure melee I thought it was always just hit cap for white dmg that was capped.
Hit is the only binary stat the way he's using it; it's the best stat until you reach a certain point, then it's worthless. 1 or 0. Unlike something like Strength or Int, which will always improve your character. AFAIK Crit and Haste have hard caps, but they're difficult to reach.
As far as independent hit stats, I'm pretty sure he's referring to hit and expertise. Melee hit has one cap for 2H/special attacks, and a separate hit cap for DW white damage. Spell hit has a higher cap, because casters don't have to worry about their spells being dodged.
Stuff like armor penetration was done away with because it was less of a choice and more of a "you must stack this or not use it ever" which doesn't jibe well with the idea that every stat is useful and if you have enough of one stat you can make the decision to reforge or regem or re-enchant into one that is more powerful for you. Hit is not a binary decision like Armor Penetration was.
The boss leveling up with Hit further supports the "gear should be interesting/fun" thang.
Hit is actually quite binary. It is by far the best stat until you cap it, at which point any more hit becomes 100% useless unless you're a dual wielder. Then there's the fact that you have two separate, independent hit stats for melee that follow the same binary principles. I can't say it really adds any interesting depth to the game. It's just a gear-juggling exercise when you're standing around in a capital city outside of raids.
Bolded: Isn't this why to have hit or not to have hit is a point of contention? I think it's an interesting stat because it allows for gear juggling and has different properties for different specs. Other people hate it for exactly this reason. The change where higher tier = need more hit gives pieces with excess hit potential for future encounters and incentivizes reforging. There is a point where you stop stacking hit but if it were truly binary you would either never stop stacking it or not use it at all; as it stands there is grey area.
In short I agree to disagree, though if hit were gone I don't see the apocalypse coming and 12 million users suddenly dropping WoW because Farmville is more 1337.
Grundle: It may shock and appall you, but some of us want meaningful gear juggling. Hell if you just want gear juggling for the sake of gear juggling, Im sure Blizzard could make some Towers of Hanoi mini game for you.
I think you guys seem to think Forty, Bowen, and I are arguing for this flat, easy, decision-less game. Thats not the truth in the slightest from where I'm sitting. We are arguing that +hit isn't a decision in the first place. It doesn't add any meaningful complexity. Either you have enough or you don't.
Grundle: It may shock and appall you, but some of us want meaningful gear juggling. Hell if you just want gear juggling for the sake of gear juggling, Im sure Blizzard could make some Towers of Hanoi mini game for you.
I see what you did there.
Apparently we enjoy different things about the game. Obviously what you think is right, so I don't know why we're bothering having this discussion.
Stuff like armor penetration was done away with because it was less of a choice and more of a "you must stack this or not use it ever" which doesn't jibe well with the idea that every stat is useful and if you have enough of one stat you can make the decision to reforge or regem or re-enchant into one that is more powerful for you. Hit is not a binary decision like Armor Penetration was.
The boss leveling up with Hit further supports the "gear should be interesting/fun" thang.
Hit is actually quite binary. It is by far the best stat until you cap it, at which point any more hit becomes 100% useless unless you're a dual wielder. Then there's the fact that you have two separate, independent hit stats for melee that follow the same binary principles. I can't say it really adds any interesting depth to the game. It's just a gear-juggling exercise when you're standing around in a capital city outside of raids.
What stat isnt? All stats have improve an area(s) by a set amount. Hit in the expansion will be the method to lower the inflation on gear stats. Its simple enough to see. Tell me forty, and I am not being snide because I never have played melee in raids, what are the two independed hit stats for melee? White dmg and special attacks? Because I always thought that special attacks hit cap was extremely low. For hybrids you get hit with the spell cap but for pure melee I thought it was always just hit cap for white dmg that was capped.
Hit is the only binary stat the way he's using it; it's the best stat until you reach a certain point, then it's worthless. 1 or 0. Unlike something like Strength or Int, which will always improve your character. AFAIK Crit and Haste have hard caps, but they're difficult to reach.
As far as independent hit stats, I'm pretty sure he's referring to hit and expertise. Melee hit has one cap for 2H/special attacks, and a separate hit cap for DW white damage. Spell hit has a higher cap, because casters don't have to worry about their spells being dodged.
Ahh yes that old argument. Those values still exist because the current special attack dmg scale is set to them. Could you imagine the increase in rogue dps if they lowered the hit down to 2hander? It would be insane! And then you would have melee classes whining that thier abilities dont hit as hard as they used to after the inevitable nerf.
Grundle: It may shock and appall you, but some of us want meaningful gear juggling. Hell if you just want gear juggling for the sake of gear juggling, Im sure Blizzard could make some Towers of Hanoi mini game for you.
What, to you, is meaningful?
Bizazedo on
XBL: Bizazedo
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Anyone remember how bad the drop rate for the Yeti quest in Winterspring was?
Heck, remember the key to Shaky's Foot ? Used to clear those stinking ogre camps three times over before it dropped. Back when the mobs were elite. In the snow. With a geth sniper shooting at me.
I remember when we would raid Strat and then drop the raid group to do the quests then quickly rejoin the raid before we got booted from the instance.
Defense Rating wasn't removed because it was a stat that could cap out (it only had a sorta-soft cap), but because it enforced a minimum amount required to do anything. That was the issue. It meant you had to run heroics to get gear to get enough defense to tank heroics, which was stupid. It enforced an artificial barrier to becoming a tank.
Hit is nothing like this. Hit is simply a stat that is very valuable before the cap and not valuable after it. This makes for interesting gearing decisions as you must gear to stay at the cap as much as possible while maximizing your other stats. It's the same with expertise.
The big difference here is that you don't need to be hit capped to do your job. DPS can still DPS under hit cap. They just do less DPS. +Hit is just like +Crit or +Haste in that it simply increases your DPS. It just does so along a slightly different curve then some of the other stats.
Without these kind of stats, gearing becomes even simpler as it's just "identify your best DPS gain from Crit/Haste/Mastery and then stack the shit outta that".
Can we put a moratorium yet on quests where you have to get something with a sub-100% drop rate? And make the things drop for each person in the party? Does someone at Blizzard have a vested interest in making quests that take far too long if you're doing them with one or more friends?
Are there any, any more? There's some old quests that fit the bill - I've had to do a bit of killing from time to time to get my Draconic For Dummies pages - but I can't think of any recent quests that require more than a minimum of kills.
There's still plenty in Northrend.
I don't mind it at all. More exp/loot while doing my quests.
You realize you could just grind extra mobs if you wanted to, don't you?
Defense Rating wasn't removed because it was a stat that could cap out (it only had a sorta-soft cap), but because it enforced a minimum amount required to do anything. That was the issue. It meant you had to run heroics to get gear to get enough defense to tank heroics, which was stupid. It enforced an artificial barrier to becoming a tank.
Hit is nothing like this. Hit is simply a stat that is very valuable before the cap and not valuable after it. This makes for interesting gearing decisions as you must gear to stay at the cap as much as possible while maximizing your other stats. It's the same with expertise.
The big difference here is that you don't need to be hit capped to do your job. DPS can still DPS under hit cap. They just do less DPS. +Hit is just like +Crit or +Haste in that it simply increases your DPS. It just does so along a slightly different curve then some of the other stats.
Without these kind of stats, gearing becomes even simpler as it's just "identify your best DPS gain from Crit/Haste/Mastery and then stack the shit outta that".
That's a stupid reason to defend it. Because as it is, it's just "Get as much hit as you can, then stack the shit out of the other stat."
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Posts
Why where is the fun in running with people I know from this froum
I know Bigity and Dude with Herpes but then they are on the allaince of Windrunner
That's assuming you're *gearing* for the next raid tier. What if you're just starting out and gearing for Blackwing Descent?
There needs to be some form of clear explanation - in-game - of what hit rating corresponds to precisely what content. And ideally, without cluttering the UI up with unnecessary information on top of that.
Then the same applies
I hate this so much. My guildmates are so bad about it.
I don't mind it at all. More exp/loot while doing my quests.
I have yet to see any quests in Northrend that come close to Fordring, Ony Attune or the like. Even BC Attune Quests were quick and easy in terms of lengths you just had to be able to kill some bosses.
on the other side of the coin, I remember a chinese guild killing Illidan in Tier 3 gear.
Steam: YOU FACE JARAXXUS| Twitch.tv: CainLoveless
I was speaking more in general.
Anyone remember how bad the drop rate for the Yeti quest in Winterspring was?
The Aged Gorilla Sinew haunts my soul.
There's so little nuance to the point where you can't give any for up another stat unless you are capped. The fact we need more each tier doesn't improve on anything. Hit needs to do something else for casters if it is going to be a secondary stat.
Fucking scrubs whining about loot drops. Go play FreeRealms if you want 100% drop rate, damn casuals.
Hell, he even said a few pages ago that he played MMO's because he wanted to 'work for shit'!
LOL nice!
There are people whining about it being to hard?
No, it's the same.
For some, it being too easy is just not fun.
For some, they're the ones who always play on easy and don't like it hard, but just like to cruise.
It's the same.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
We all hated that guy.
It may shock and appall you to learn that some people actually find that gear-juggling exercise to add "interesting depth."
Another thing...based on this UI, doesn't that imply that T11 will be 88, T12 will be 89, T13 will be 90?
On the one hand, I know that's not necessarily true, but at the same time, fighting Deathwing who'll be 5/6 levels above us? Sounds epic.
What they should do is use different colored skulls for each tier, should be easy to match up where you are with what you need that way.
The reason Haste and Crit work is the arguments in favor of either or. Instead of crit, I could equip gear with more haste. But with +hit, if you don't have enough, you don't have enough. You don't want to swap out +hit for something else if you havn't hit that cap. And once you hit that cap, you desperately want to avoid it. Its not a decision, its a requirement.
What stat isnt? All stats have improve an area(s) by a set amount. Hit in the expansion will be the method to lower the inflation on gear stats. Its simple enough to see. Tell me forty, and I am not being snide because I never have played melee in raids, what are the two independed hit stats for melee? White dmg and special attacks? Because I always thought that special attacks hit cap was extremely low. For hybrids you get hit with the spell cap but for pure melee I thought it was always just hit cap for white dmg that was capped.
Hit is the only binary stat the way he's using it; it's the best stat until you reach a certain point, then it's worthless. 1 or 0. Unlike something like Strength or Int, which will always improve your character. AFAIK Crit and Haste have hard caps, but they're difficult to reach.
As far as independent hit stats, I'm pretty sure he's referring to hit and expertise. Melee hit has one cap for 2H/special attacks, and a separate hit cap for DW white damage. Spell hit has a higher cap, because casters don't have to worry about their spells being dodged.
In short I agree to disagree, though if hit were gone I don't see the apocalypse coming and 12 million users suddenly dropping WoW because Farmville is more 1337.
I think you guys seem to think Forty, Bowen, and I are arguing for this flat, easy, decision-less game. Thats not the truth in the slightest from where I'm sitting. We are arguing that +hit isn't a decision in the first place. It doesn't add any meaningful complexity. Either you have enough or you don't.
I see what you did there.
Apparently we enjoy different things about the game. Obviously what you think is right, so I don't know why we're bothering having this discussion.
Ahh yes that old argument. Those values still exist because the current special attack dmg scale is set to them. Could you imagine the increase in rogue dps if they lowered the hit down to 2hander? It would be insane! And then you would have melee classes whining that thier abilities dont hit as hard as they used to after the inevitable nerf.
Man, that'd be awesome. We need some randomness!
What, to you, is meaningful?
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Heal fizzles, while hilarious, are an LOLMAYBEUDIE mechanic and are not comparable to DPS hit caps.
I remember when we would raid Strat and then drop the raid group to do the quests then quickly rejoin the raid before we got booted from the instance.
Hit is nothing like this. Hit is simply a stat that is very valuable before the cap and not valuable after it. This makes for interesting gearing decisions as you must gear to stay at the cap as much as possible while maximizing your other stats. It's the same with expertise.
The big difference here is that you don't need to be hit capped to do your job. DPS can still DPS under hit cap. They just do less DPS. +Hit is just like +Crit or +Haste in that it simply increases your DPS. It just does so along a slightly different curve then some of the other stats.
Without these kind of stats, gearing becomes even simpler as it's just "identify your best DPS gain from Crit/Haste/Mastery and then stack the shit outta that".
That's a stupid reason to defend it. Because as it is, it's just "Get as much hit as you can, then stack the shit out of the other stat."