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Will Bruce Wayne ever really die?

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    WildcatWildcat Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Lux wrote: »
    bring back ryan choi

    Amen, brother. Along with Atom V, Panda Potter, of course.

    Wildcat on
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    Ronin356Ronin356 Nowhere MORegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Eddie Brock would like a word with you

    I hope it's not about brains. LOL

    Ronin356 on
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    Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against Russian warships) Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Will any Marvel or DC A-Lister ever stay dead?

    Nope. Thread over.

    Characters die all the time, they just don't stay dead.
    Black Goliath.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
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    JakesullyJakesully Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    The thought of Bruce Wayne actually dying is a terrible one....my life would end....so cold....someone hold me...

    Jakesully on
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    NoizlanifNoizlanif MMO-Whore Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Jakesully wrote: »
    The thought of Bruce Wayne actually dying is a terrible one....my life would end....so cold....someone hold me...



    So his parents are going to come back RIGHT?!

    Noizlanif on
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Barbara Gordon is still paralyzed below the waist, right? No miracle cure yet.

    emnmnme on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Barbara Gordon is still paralyzed below the waist, right? No miracle cure yet.

    Yes, but that has now become a part of her character. She's not Batgirl in a wheelchair, she's Oracle. I mean, to me, USAgent having no arm or leg is not an integral part of his character, it's just where he is now. Maybe it will become part of his character, and he will be USAgent, crippled ex-super-soldier, rather than USAgent, Super-Soldier who just happened to be missing a few parts right now.

    Also cool as Warden USAgent is I miss him being a full on soldier in action. He was a great character in the field, loved him in Mighty Avengers (best Avengers book, it had Hank Pym and USAgent, so cool).

    Solar on
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    sirchrissypoosirchrissypoo Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Very rarely do characters ever stay dead or even severely injured. The only time they do is if the event that caused the death/injury in question resonated with fans and was well received.

    Barbara Gordon stayed paralyzed because the character she became out of the accident, The Oracle, was a better character than anything that had been done with her before, for the most part.

    Jason Todd stayed dead for a very long time, because it defined a lot of who Batman was and how he acted for a long time.

    If it's a big-time character, they will not stay dead. Ever. DC can't kill off Superman because they feel they have to have a Superman book out there. Marvel won't kill Wolverine because he's gotta be in a ridiculous amount of books per month.

    sirchrissypoo on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Well, you know, Wolverine and Superman both make money.

    I mean, that's what it is really. Gotta make the money.

    Solar on
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    JakesullyJakesully Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I dont like talking about this movie, cause it was terrible, but in Superman Returns when Superman gets stabbed with kryptonite....how the hell did he not die?? I mean it was KRYPTONITE!!!! Im not a huge Sup fan or anything, but i never understood that.

    Jakesully on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Jakesully wrote: »
    I dont like talking about this movie, cause it was terrible, but in Superman Returns when Superman gets stabbed with kryptonite....how the hell did he not die?? I mean it was KRYPTONITE!!!! Im not a huge Sup fan or anything, but i never understood that.

    'Cause Supes usually just loses his powers and gets really weak when near Kryptonite, it takes a long time to kill him (slowly and painfully I might add), so the Kryptonite shard makes him basically a normal guy who has been stabbed, hence he doesn't die (because you don't automatically die from a single stab wound).

    The bit after where he lifts up the Kryptonite Island? I don't know about that. Probably not how it should have gone. But then the whole point behind Superman is that he tells reality, sense, probability and the laws of physics to shut the fuck up, then succeeds anyway because he is totally super and everything, so I guess that's in character really.

    Anyway that movie wasn't all bad. Brandon Routh was a really good Superman, when he tells everyone on the plane that flying was still the safest way to travel, and he has that big reassuring smile on his face, I just wanted to say "sure thing Mister Superman!" Also the whole plane scene was cool and Kevin Spacey was fun as Luthor. It was the pacing which was mostly the problem I thought.

    Solar on
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    mojojoeomojojoeo A block off the park, living the dream.Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Jakesully wrote: »
    I dont like talking about this movie, cause it was terrible, but in Superman Returns when Superman gets stabbed with kryptonite....how the hell did he not die?? I mean it was KRYPTONITE!!!! Im not a huge Sup fan or anything, but i never understood that.

    because it was an aweful movie.

    You missed the part where he lifted a giant kryptonite boulder up after being stabbed.

    mojojoeo on
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    CorporateLogoCorporateLogo The toilet knows how I feelRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    He got shot with a kryptonite bullet by Metallo in Superman/Batman: Public Enemies

    CorporateLogo on
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    Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    So in theory a character can be truly replaced (for good) only if sales of the comic with the new character are about ten times higher than the old character for a straight run of a year and no one gains a high enough position in the company that wants the old character to make a come back. Ouch, tough one.

    For me personally I find I don't want characters to die, the exception being if they set that character up with a student. Wolverine and Superman can keep going forever as far as I'm concerned, its the Batmen of the comic world that annoy me. Poor sidekicks.

    Endless_Serpents on
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    OlioOlio Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    It's always bothered me when a character, for example Barry Allen, gave their life to save someone/everyone, knowing it would kill them, and then they just come back to life later. It basically makes the 'ultimate sacrifice' nothing more than a regular, inconvenient sacrifice. Obviously the character doesn't know they're coming back, but the reader often does, and on principle I always hate when a really good death is basically annulled. That being said, I've enjoyed the new Barry stuff, so even if I'm against the revival of a self-sacrificing hero, I'm willing to forget my ire if the comic is still good, because regardless of how it came about, a good story is a good story.

    Olio on
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    LuxLux Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Olio wrote: »
    It's always bothered me when a character, for example Barry Allen, gave their life to save someone/everyone, knowing it would kill them, and then they just come back to life later. It basically makes the 'ultimate sacrifice' nothing more than a regular, inconvenient sacrifice. Obviously the character doesn't know they're coming back, but the reader often does, and on principle I always hate when a really good death is basically annulled. That being said, I've enjoyed the new Barry stuff, so even if I'm against the revival of a self-sacrificing hero, I'm willing to forget my ire if the comic is still good, because regardless of how it came about, a good story is a good story.

    I agree, it has been pretty good. But it would be pretty good with Wally West, too.

    It would be funny for people to talk about death and resurrection frankly the next time an ultimate sacrifice is required. "Someone has to stay behind to make sure the bomb goes off! Who wants to take a few years off? Does anyone have a sidekick that can take over their role? Or should we just send the sidekick?"

    Lux on
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    delphinusdelphinus Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    So was the Hero's resurrection motif of comics genuinely ruined by superman?

    I know there were people that came back before him, but is that where it all careened off a cliff?

    delphinus on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I'd say it wasn't what ruined it, but it opened the door for others to play with "killing" a character. Around that time we got Batman turning into another character with Bat-armor, Green Lantern goes crazy and hip 90's artist takes over, Booster Gold turned into NFL Superpro Gold, Green Arrow dies, Spider-Man is replaced, Age of Apocalypse, etc.

    As always, the first time it's done isn't really the problem, it's the subsequent attempts by others afterwards that kills the idea. A Flaming Moe isn't so special when everyone knows the secret.

    I think I would say Heroes Reborn was more of a damage than Superman's death. Those were terrible stories that really didn't hold onto readers outside of Jim Lee's FF issues and opened up the idea of instant character rewrites for the sake of being hip and cool.

    TexiKen on
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    Ronin356Ronin356 Nowhere MORegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    TexiKen wrote: »
    I'd say it wasn't what ruined it, but it opened the door for others to play with "killing" a character. Around that time we got Batman turning into another character with Bat-armor, Green Lantern goes crazy and hip 90's artist takes over, Booster Gold turned into NFL Superpro Gold, Green Arrow dies, Spider-Man is replaced, Age of Apocalypse, etc.

    As always, the first time it's done isn't really the problem, it's the subsequent attempts by others afterwards that kills the idea. A Flaming Moe isn't so special when everyone knows the secret.

    I think I would say Heroes Reborn was more of a damage than Superman's death. Those were terrible stories that really didn't hold onto readers outside of Jim Lee's FF issues and opened up the idea of instant character rewrites for the sake of being hip and cool.

    I completely agree with you on that.

    Character deaths have been overused. Anybody remember the last time Captain America died? Before he died after Civil War again? It was the lame armored Cap from the 90's. He had a something that was killing him.

    Ronin356 on
    Nobody sees a flower really; it is so small. We haven't time, and to see takes time - like to have a friend takes time.
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    But superhero stories revolve around threats to people's lives, so deaths are a bit of an inevitability.

    Robos A Go Go on
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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    People just don't like letting go of legacy characters, is all. They'd rather write for the guy they remember from when they read comics than the guy who's in the suit when they get hired.

    Centipede Damascus on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    DC has much more of a problem with legacy characters though. There's been like, five Flashes, four Green Lanterns, twenty Dr Fate. If the costume and the power set matter more than whoever is wearing them then you are going to see guys getting killed off and replaced more often, because it's not like you can't just give the next guy the same get-up and send him on his way. But some writer will always bring back their favourite part of the legacy, and like Tex said, regular death being overtuned makes it much less impacting.

    Which is good in a way, because killing a character for shock value is lazy storytelling. Why does a character need to die to make this work? Notice that Death of Captain Marvel was actually a good death scene because it wasn't about shock value it was part of the story. Same with (TI Imperative spoilers)
    Nova Prime and Star Lord, their death wasn't shock value it had meaning, it was about sacrifice and heroism and spitting in the face of defeat, which was great.
    Both those deaths worked because they weren't there just to make the reader jump for about two seconds then go "I can't believe they did that!" Because these days everyone can believe they did that.

    So yeah, death in comics book can be fine if it is done well, which it rarely is, because it is usually just puerile shock value. And the emotional impact of death is still there, but not through shock, but through other meanings which are rarely explored. What was the point behind the death of Ares? Or the Sentry? Or Janet Van Dyne? Fuck all. But there was a point behind the death of Adam Warlock, that was clearly supposed to show how being a Guardian of the Galaxy had it's harsh and brutal price, that sometimes you had to shoot a friend in the head to protect the Galaxy from his alter ego, hell, and that sometimes you have to knell on the floor and beg your friend to shoot you in the head in order to do the same.

    That was something which came out of that scene. Nothing meaningful in the death of Ares. It's just supposed to show us how powerful and off the rails the Void is.

    Solar on
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    DMACDMAC Come at me, bro! Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited November 2010
    I hate "red shirt" deaths for characters, even minor ones, where the writer is just using them to show that a villain is dangerous. I remember an X-Men arc where Synch and Skin from Generation X were left dead on the mansion's lawn as a warning and there was that Avengers story where they killed off the majority of Alpha Flight "off screen" just to show how unstoppable the threat they were facing was.

    I always feel that even D-list characters at least deserve to die heroically.

    DMAC on
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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    yeah, I hate that a lot, myself

    it's something that happens a lot in Transformers, too

    Antimatter on
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    143999143999 Tellin' ya not askin' ya, not pleadin' with yaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    One day, I'm going to write a What If? story about a universe in which comic writers without exception keep characters in the era for which they were originally created.

    143999 on
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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    It's been done, you know. A few times.

    Centipede Damascus on
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    NinjabearNinjabear Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    The main thing I hate is when the story of a character coming back to life is handled poorly, like a lot of the recent DC revivals that take place during big events.

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    JAKJAK Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Jakesully wrote: »
    I dont like talking about this movie, cause it was terrible, but in Superman Returns when Superman gets stabbed with kryptonite....how the hell did he not die?? I mean it was KRYPTONITE!!!! Im not a huge Sup fan or anything, but i never understood that.

    Every single person who brings this up forgets that he did die. He flatlined in the hospital.

    JAK on
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    CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    DMAC wrote: »
    I hate "red shirt" deaths for characters, even minor ones, where the writer is just using them to show that a villain is dangerous. I remember an X-Men arc where Synch and Skin from Generation X were left dead on the mansion's lawn as a warning and there was that Avengers story where they killed off the majority of Alpha Flight "off screen" just to show how unstoppable the threat they were facing was.

    I always feel that even D-list characters at least deserve to die heroically.

    It just seems like lazy writing to me. And of course, even Alpha Flight can come back

    Corvus on
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    The Real InfernoThe Real Inferno Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    No offense to Renee Montoya fans, but I want Vic Sage back. He went out in such a lame way for a big fan like me.

    Yeah, the character deaths of recent years have been rampant, especially in DC. Even Marvin and Wendy haven't been safe. Characters will get built up in a storyline then offed out of nowhere by some villain (like what happened to Damage in Blackest Night). Lesser character just get tossed up on body heaps for threat value (Cry for Justice with the New Defenders and Red Arrow, and every former Teen Titan ever).

    The Real Inferno on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I would offer a challenge for either of the big two to go one year our time without killing anyone. At all. No deaths, even throw away characters or innocent people on the street. The exception to this would be the mature books like the MAX imprint or Vertigo.

    TexiKen on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Does anyone think that Bruce Wayne sounds like an Australian stereotype character played for comedy effect? I mean Bruce Wayne.

    Solar on
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    No offense to Renee Montoya fans, but I want Vic Sage back. He went out in such a lame way for a big fan like me.

    I think it was important for him to go out the way he did, as it really grew the character of Montoya.

    Edit: I mean if you are going to put a new face (har har) on a character, and pass the torch, that wasn't a bad way to do it. It had some dignity, you know?

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
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    LuxLux Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    No offense to Renee Montoya fans, but I want Vic Sage back. He went out in such a lame way for a big fan like me.

    I think it was important for him to go out the way he did, as it really grew the character of Montoya.

    Edit: I mean if you are going to put a new face (har har) on a character, and pass the torch, that wasn't a bad way to do it. It had some dignity, you know?

    While it has definitely been good for the Montoya character, and at least it wasn't a shock death to put over a super villain, my main problem with Vic Sage's death was that the character was really getting some traction. He had a lot of new fans from JLU and killing him so soon just seemed to put an axe in that momentum.

    Lux on
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    Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    I didn't really know the character, so I can't comment on that.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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    The Real InfernoThe Real Inferno Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Renee doesn't really play the Question either. She's essentially exactly the same as she was before, but now without a face...sometimes. Seemingly everyone already knows what she looks like in the DC universe, kind of ruining the point. I really liked the Blackest Night resurrection issue of The Question though, she was great in it.

    The Real Inferno on
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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Didn't she get the Mark of Cain on her face recently, though, thereby preventing her from ever showing it again?

    Robos A Go Go on
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    The Real InfernoThe Real Inferno Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Maybe? I stopped reading Detective Comics after Batwoman took over and Question was running in the back of that, so I haven't kept up.

    The Real Inferno on
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    Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Honestly, the resurrection that pissed me off most - and I'm kind of surprised it hasn't been mentioned - was the first time Aunt May came back around.

    I honestly feel that ASM400 was one of the best issues of Spidey ever. May's death was handled pretty poignently, and it was a bright spot in an otherwise shitty storyline.

    And then whoops no that was a robot. So fucking insulting. And of course it set the precedent for OMD, which, yeah.

    Salvation122 on
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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I thought it was an actor

    although, I do agree with you

    Antimatter on
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