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Dealing with a bratty step-daughter
Romantic Undead
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Hey guys,
My pre-wife is mother to a 17 year old daughter.
I've only been in said daughter's life (let's call her A), for about 4 years.
Last night, it came to our attention that A has been skipping school. Yesterday morning, she came to our room, complaining about a sore throat, and her throat was indeed swollen and infected, so we gave her our permission to stay home sick. Of course, upon coming home from work, we discover her to be gone.
She comes back, merrily, at around 9:00 pm. We ask her where she's been, and she responds matter-of factly that she's been hanging out with friends. We told her that this was not cool, we did not give her permission to stay home from school so she could go play hookie with friends all day long. As a result, she was to be grounded for a week and she was to come home directly after school for the upcoming week.
Her response: A sneer and "try and make me, I come home whenever I feel like it".
This is but the latest in a string of behaviour issues, where she dismisses our rules and requests like they were unasked-for suggestions. We ask her to do her part of the chores (which involves mainly cleaning the bathrooms and occasionally filling/emptying the dishwasher), and she ignores us. She routinely shows up late for school, if at all, and is hardly ever home for supper, but still expects food to be prepared for her when she does eventually show up in the evening, blaming us if its cold or something she doesn't like (she's an excessively picky eater).
I want to be able to put my foot down and tell A that her behaviour is unacceptable, but I worry that she'll pull the 'ol "You're not my father!" bit. Her mom is completely exasperated and has been reduced to nothing more than shouted commands, which are summarily ignored. I'm trying to work with her mom and get her to understand that she's not going to get through to A that way, while still doing my part to help.
So, tl/dr? Please recommend good ways to impress upon a headstrong 17 year old that her behaviour isn't cool.
Thanks, H/A.
My pre-wife is mother to a 17 year old daughter.
I've only been in said daughter's life (let's call her A), for about 4 years.
Last night, it came to our attention that A has been skipping school. Yesterday morning, she came to our room, complaining about a sore throat, and her throat was indeed swollen and infected, so we gave her our permission to stay home sick. Of course, upon coming home from work, we discover her to be gone.
She comes back, merrily, at around 9:00 pm. We ask her where she's been, and she responds matter-of factly that she's been hanging out with friends. We told her that this was not cool, we did not give her permission to stay home from school so she could go play hookie with friends all day long. As a result, she was to be grounded for a week and she was to come home directly after school for the upcoming week.
Her response: A sneer and "try and make me, I come home whenever I feel like it".
This is but the latest in a string of behaviour issues, where she dismisses our rules and requests like they were unasked-for suggestions. We ask her to do her part of the chores (which involves mainly cleaning the bathrooms and occasionally filling/emptying the dishwasher), and she ignores us. She routinely shows up late for school, if at all, and is hardly ever home for supper, but still expects food to be prepared for her when she does eventually show up in the evening, blaming us if its cold or something she doesn't like (she's an excessively picky eater).
I want to be able to put my foot down and tell A that her behaviour is unacceptable, but I worry that she'll pull the 'ol "You're not my father!" bit. Her mom is completely exasperated and has been reduced to nothing more than shouted commands, which are summarily ignored. I'm trying to work with her mom and get her to understand that she's not going to get through to A that way, while still doing my part to help.
So, tl/dr? Please recommend good ways to impress upon a headstrong 17 year old that her behaviour isn't cool.
Thanks, H/A.
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It sounds like A has gone a long way past realizing that rules won't be enforced, and is also dealing with the "I am an adult now, stop trying to make me be a child" syndrome.
My initial thought was to begin restricting things (and this may be what you need to do). Do you pay for her phone? Warn her that if she does X anymore (be specific) then you turn off her phone. And then, if/when she does turn off her phone. Does she have a laptop? Take it away/restrict its use. Does she use a family-computer? Restrict its use. Does she have "her own" car that you/the mother bought? Restrict the use! For dinner, tell her "Dinner will be at 6:30 and if you aren't there, you're on your own for dinner." And then follow through. If you do this, she will be royally pissed and do everything she knows how to make you/her mom regret it. She may even try to turn you against one another/go for the "weaker" party that's is going to be compassionate and give in. Don't let this happen.
My second response is "she's almost an adult, begin treating her like one, maybe she'll learn to act like one." Although she's acting like a child, she thinks she's an adult. Does she have a job? Ask her to get one and begin paying for her own things. Don't do it in the heat of an argument, just say that she's nearly an adult now, and needs to start taking responsibility for her actions. Say you'd be glad to fix dinner for her if she's there for dinner, but she's responsible for herself if she isn't.
I'm not sure, likely, the best approach is an amalgamation of these two approaches, but I'm not sure what that combo would be.
Edit: She needs a parent right now, not a friend. That goes for both you and her mother.
Edit:
This will also help drive home the "Well, maybe you should get a job if you're so independent and adult now." part of the lesson.
We provide for you because we love you and want your happiness.
We want your safety and happiness above all other things.
When you lie to us, when you sneak out, when you disobey, it runs opposite to our intentions wanting to make sure you're safe and happy.
Case and point: If I dont know where you are or what you're doing and you won't be honest with us - how do I know if you're safe? How do I know if you're happy? Maybe you're hanging out with dangerous people. Maybe you're not hanging out with anyone and you're super depressed and lonely. You don't want to be honest with us and tell us, so we assume the worst.
You've discovered what all people discover in their teen years. That we, as parents, can't actually control a single thing that you do. People get drunk with power off of that knowledge...but the truth is that its always been that way. Sure we could have threatened spanking, or time our or whatever, but really...we can't stop you from doing what you're going to do.
That being said, we don't have to help you do it. No phone, no allowance, no computer. Empty the room except for bed and clothes. Dinner served at prompt times. No gifts, No outtings. Extra-cirricular activities like sports, music, gym, cheer, camp, etc - those are all done. You could always get a job and pay for these types of things yourself, but even with a job, odds are you couldnt afford all of the things you enjoy.
Or we could not do that and find a way to level with each other as adults..which you are now arriving at. Thats tough for both of us...we've got to see each other as equals, as adults, and not just as kid/parent.
She pays her own phone with an allowance she earns by doing chores (i.e. the aforementioned bathroom and dishes). We have already established that she does not get an allowance if she does not do her chores in a timely fashion.
Yes to both. My concern here is that taking these away will only cause her to rebel further and give her even more reason to not be home.
This one is interesting, because, despite the fact that we do have a car, she has expressed no real interest in taking her driving test. We have encouraged her to save up some money so we can take her to do her driving test, but she seems to have no desire to do so.
This, we have already done. What's strange here is that when we refuse to make her supper because she wasn't present, she will make herself a non-meal in what seems to be an effort to punish us. For example: You won't feed me? FINE, I'll just have NOTHING and then I'll STARVE and it'll be YOUR fault! Either that or she'll make herself a bowl of white rice or cereal. We can't control her nutrition if she refuses to eat what we make her / doesn't show up for supper. I've tried to instill in her how important proper nutrition is, but, obviously, she's not listening.
This has been an ongoing debate since she was about 15. She's extremely lazy and has no motivation. She's continuously asking for money, above and beyond her allowance which we, of course, summarily refuse. This, in her eyes, clearly makes us tyrants and she tries her best to try and make US feel guilty for HER "not having a life". I do believe I've finally managed to get through to her a bit, as she asked for my help in writing a resume this morning, but it's a slow process. I'm considering cutting off her allowance but, as with everything else, I'm worried that doing so will just push her further away, instead of getting her to understand the importance of fiscal responsibility.
This we've already been doing for a while now, to no apparent avail.
I know this all too well, but finding that balancing between "condescening asshole parent" and "cool non-parental figure" is a difficult highwire act.
Largely, ignore her attempts at punishing you by eating non meals. It's shitty for her health but she has to take care of herself in the real world and she'll know pretty quickly that eating white rice or potato chips isn't going to cut it.
And stop giving her an allowance. A responsible teenager should be doing those things anyways. Obviously don't say "I'M NOT GIVING YOU AN ALLOWANCE ANYMORE" in a fight, but bring it up once everyone's calm. As for everything else, seems like you're making excuses not to push her towards being an adult.
You really need to get serious with your punishments. Sit down with her and outline what you expect. If she wants money from you she needs to do X, Y and Z. Non negotiable. Same goes for dinner. Don't want to be home on time for dinner? Either save up money to eat out or eat what you find.
Also, it's not grounding if she gets to go in her room and chat on facebook or watch Bad Girls Club.
EDIT: as an aside, I get where your daughter is coming from on the whole driving thing. I don't drive, and I'm 19. I ride with friends, help pay gas money, and that's that. Maybe she doesn't feel ready to drive, or doesn't feel responsible enough to own a car (doesn't seem like she is, anyways). personally, I can't afford to pay gas, insurance, and car payments at this point in my life and therefore I see no appeal in owning a car (yet).
EDIT 2: Also, you really need to get on her ass about skipping school. I had to go to truancy court when I was in 6th grade and it was embarrassing for me and my parents. Also, my high school was super strict about attendance, and would make house calls if student's didn't show up. After a certain amount of absences you got in some serious trouble. Is there nothing in place like that at her school?
Bother me on steam: kabbypan
You're going to have an iffy relationship with her for a long time, but you know you have her best interests in mind and you have to remember this as you help drag her on to adulthood. Like bowen said, she'll figure out the meals and as she gets older she shouldn't necessarily be rewarded for things she should be doing anyway. Help her with that resume! That skill goes a long way, and maybe it can help start the foundation for your new relationship together.
Alternatively, change the conditions of her allowance. You currently have it set up that she's paid for doing a job. Change it so that her allowance is based on her behavior. If she goes to school, eats dinner at home, she gets her allowance. If she plays hooky, stays out late against "the rules," etc., then her allowance goes down. Make the allowance a multiple of 7 so it's divisible by the number of days.
She sounds like she thinks you guys are totally lame and there's little you can do to change that while she's still, ironically, completely dependent on you guys. She "hates" you guys because she knows, deep down, that she needs you guys for money, food, etc. Talk to her mom about not yelling at her for stuff, or getting angry, since that won't change her behavior -- it'll just give her more excuse to not be home because you "fight all the time."
As for the food, don't buy snacks. If she has no allowance and there's no potato chips, junk food, etc. around, she'll have to eat the meals. And when you make the meals, make sure she has a portion — if she's not around, put it in a container and let her microwave it. Perhaps ask for her input for what she likes as an actual meal, maybe make a few nights an "A Night" where she can pick the menu (as long as she picks something that isn't just "bowl of rice").
But yeah, it's tough. I would definitely talk to her mom first and foremost so you're both on the same page -- any behavior modification needs to come from both of you, and you'll have to change your own behavior towards her before she sees that anything is (or should be) different.
Additionally, you are clearly paying her too much money to do her chores if she can pay a cell phone bill with what she gets for contributing to household chores. I got $5 a week from my dad to do what was a full share of household chores (all yard work, my share of laundry, my share of meal prep, shared space cleaning, etc., I also received penalties to that if I failed to do something, like a dollar less if I'd left laundry about) until I turned 18, at which point I didn't even have to be told that I would continue to do so simply by virtue of being allowed to live at home.
Honestly, I don't know how parents deal with children like this. Someone like that wouldn't have grown up in my household, because they would've understood that behavior was unacceptable. My recommendation is to provide clear household rules and responsibilities, and if she doesn't abide by them with respect, throw her out on her rear when she turns 18.
If she comes home at a late time, she won't get dinner. If she decides to make herself something unhealthy to eat, that's her problem. If she shows up late to school, you'll show up late next time she has to be picked up from something.
Don't refrain from doing something you told her you would do just because you're afraid she'll act out more. Find out the names of whoever she is hanging out with. Call their parents and ask them for help, tell them your daughter is out without permission. Don't let your daughter keep getting away with this, otherwise she'll walk all over you.
If you don't raise her to be a responsible, intelligent adult capable of functioning in normal society and taking responsibility for her own life and actions, you are doing her a far greater disservice.
I agree with this advice, but the health question still worries me.
Let's assume that we put down a strict dinner schedule and she ignores it, opting instead to get a job and eat nothing but chips and cookies. Would I not be lax in my duties in trying to enforce better nutrition? I can't just stand by and watch her balloon up. She's already sedentary and slightly overweight, I don't think I can stand by and simply allow her to neglect her health like that.
Yes, this.
If you have such a concern about her health like this, plan a week or two-week menu. Breakfast lunch and dinner. Buy only the things needed for this menu.
Get it into a routine and make it clear that this is the menu. She doesn't like it? Tough.
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Look, if she's going to be fat and lazy no matter what opportunities you provide her and despite every effort you make to the contrary, then she's just going to be fat and lazy as soon as she leaves home anyway. Or be a burden on you for the rest of your life, as you have an overweight, single brat living with you at age 40. At some point after teaching children the best you can they are given the choice, "Shape up or ship out."
This. This is what my dad did when I wasn't making meal times with him because of my job/friends. I actually learned a lot about buying groceries and preparing meals as a result.
This could apply to a lot of things, like if she doesn't do her laundry her desire to be in clean clothes will come before her laziness sooner rather than later.
She should be reminded of the consequences for not finishing High School. I don't think a GED will cut it if she wants to go to college. Or at least one that isn't a community college. If she procrastinates now, she'll suffer the results literally the rest of her life. I understand the logic behind still supporting her despite her reluctance because you're afraid of what might happen to her, but as said above, she's going to have to learn to take care of herself eventually.
Having her ask you to help write a resume seems odd to me. What does she have to put on it?
Eventually, yes. I think right now she'll think "I feel like shit, and it's all their fault. GOD they SUCK." And then "all my clothes are dirty but i can't STAND to be here for the two hours it takes to do laundry, and they're just going to BITCH about the other chores I didn't do."
Did you forget what it's like to be a teenager? Everything is your parents' fault ;D
Which means that the parent needs to do essentially what Darkwolfe is saying -- accept that everything is your fault, and make them deal with it.
If she skips out again, surprise her by taking away her bedroom door. Tell her she can earn it back once LONG_TERM_GOAL is complete.
But for any of this to work, both you and your fiance need to be on the same page. Either both of you make up your mind, or you choose which one is going to do the talking, and the other parent will be "talk to mom/your stepad" whenever she tries to hide behind the other one. Kids and teenagers especially look for a parent to get leverage on.
Yelling won't work because she'll yell louder. Giving her attention when she does negative stuff will make her do it more to get a rise out of you (I should know, me and my brothers did it to intentionally piss off our stepdad). The door, however, is your ultimate ace card if she continues to skip out of school or come home extremely late.
You pay for the phone, you just let her pretend that she's paying for the phone.
Take that shit away.
Basically.
It sounds like the parental tactics up until now have not been working in your favor. It's time to change things up to where she has the least amount of control in the household as possible. From what I've read, this girl doesn't deserve money from you for doing chores. She should be doing chores and be happy to do them because you haven't promised to boot her out of the house once she turns 18.
Whatever you can do that takes control or power away from her is a plus in this situation: Don't rise to her level when she starts yelling getting pissed. Do not hand out money while she continues to act terribly, even if she did do her chores. If you do buy any "unhealthy" food, put a lock on that particular cabinet door to where she can't get into it. Put a lock on ALL the cabinet doors when you're not around to show her you mean business about the dinner time that you have set (obviously a bit off the deep end and probably something I would never actually do, but I'm just brainstorming for ideas here :P).
You should ingrain in her (as lovingly as possible) that the old rule of "As long as you live in my house, you will follow my rules" is still in effect in 2010. If she thinks she has it so badly, kick her out at 18 with a GED and no useful work skills and see if that's preferable for her.
Sorry if I seem a bit angry. I just really can't stand bratty kids that don't understand how lucky they are to live in a good home with parents that actually give a rip about them. I grew up in a great household and even though I haven't lived with my parents for over 6 years now, I do live near them and I help them out with work all the time because they can't do some of it themselves anymore. It pisses me off in a big way that so many ignorant children take a good homelife for granted.
Couple of things I want to say, just in general to all parents.
First, if you say something as a parent, whether it's a punishment, or a reward, stick to your word. Your children need to know that when you say something, you mean it.
If you set out a punishment, be realistic. With punishments, or especially with the threat of punishment, start small, if your child does something minor, don't ground them for a week, because if they decide to push it, you end up with having nowhere to go. Start small, like no computer, or phone, or TV for the rest of the night, oh, you don't want to shape up, ok, so same thing tomorrow night. Still pushing it, now it's the rest of the week. Starting small gives you somewhere to go before "You are grounded till we set up an arranged marriage."
Second, if you are a step parent, you are still a parent, or at least a parental figure. My step-dad was a tyrant, and honestly I really hated him most of the time, but now that I am an adult, I really appreciate what he did, because he made me a better person for it. Kids are supposed to rebel, and it's the job of the parental figures to teach them responsibility. Even though they want freedom, they still need structure and rules. They have to learn that their are consequences. I think the best that you can do is simply state the rules and the consequences of those rules, and then stick to them. Once the child learns that you aren't going to buckle with a little pressure, they will respect the boundaries (more than now hopefully) but keep in mind, it usually gets worse before it gets better. Be firm, but not a tyrant.
Next, don't be emotional. Not angry, not sad. If your partner gets all worked up, send the child to their room, and give both of you time to calm down, maybe talk over appropriate punishment. Then call the child out and simply dole out the punishment. Yelling and screaming doesn't work, it only escalates the situation. Either the child shuts down, and you don't get through to them, or they start yelling, and you don't get through to them. Either way they aren't going to listen to a word that you say. Just tell them matter of factly what the punishment is, and enact it. Then stick to it.
This is not everything, but it's a good foundation. I think once you have got this, communication is HUGE. Children need to know that they can talk to you, and vice versa. (Sometimes this means shutting up and listening.)
So I'm coming up with a template of things to say based on your advice. Please feel free to critique / add-to, whatever.
My plan would be to schedule a sit-down with A, her mom and myself, after I have had a chance to discuss my concerns with mom, of course. Here is a template of what I'm planning on saying during this sit-down (assuming, of course, I get mom's approval to speak on behalf of both of us):
***
A, we want you to understand that, despite what you might think, we love you, and our primary concern is for your health, your safety, and your future. Your behaviour lately has your mom and I concerned for all three. After talking with your mom, we have come to the conclusion that we may have been spoiling you and, as a result, you've come to take some of your priviledges at home for granted.
As such, we are changing the way things work at home:
- As of today, you are expected to become a contributing member of this household. What this means is that you will no longer be given an allowance for doing things that would be expected of you anyways in a roomate agreement. In other words, we are no longer paying you for doing chores you should be doing anyways. Failure to uphold your share of household duties will result in loss of privileges.
- Your rights include:
- Shelter
- a bed
- Three square meals a day
- anything else that you receive from us beyond this are PRIVILEGES, which can be REVOKED if you do not adhere to the rules of common courtesy when co-habitating with anyone, parents or not. These privileges include, but are not limited to:
- Television
- computer / internet access
- video game consoles
- any non-meal foods
- we serve dinner at 6:30 pm, except on days when your mother works late, at which point, dinner-time will be adjusted to her schedule. If you choose not to be here for supper, then you choose to take responsibility for your own meal. If you choose to feed yourself, you are responsible for your own nutrition. If you choose to neglect your nutrition by not eating or eating inadequately, that is your own responsibility, and we will not stand for being made to feel guilty over your inability to eat responsibly.
***
I feel there's more I should add but I'm at work and can't take the time to think on this much more. Any further advice continues to be appreciated!
I think a lot of the advice in this thread is very good, but maybe doesn't go far enough. A 17 year old is exactly 1 year away from needing to be completely self sufficient, and it doesn't sound like your stepdaughter is anywhere near being self sufficient. What's more, it sounds like she has decided she already deserves the privileges of adulthood ("I come home when I feel like it").
So, the reasonable thing to do is to start transitioning into treating her as a cohabiting adult. You're doing a lot for her right now that she just takes for granted (laundry, dishes, buying food, cooking, cleaning, rent, phone, computer, TV...). Start weaning her off. When she throws tantrums, ignore them. The position that you would be taking is "I recognize that you are nearly an adult, so we're going to treat you more like an adult now, and that includes making reasonable agreements with us."
Edit: your post is right on target, I think.
My folks did this when I came home at 3 in ther moring, pissed to the gills at 15, it took me a month to get it back and that was LOOOOONNNNNNGGGG month. never came home after curfew without calling again...
But honestly just be firm and FOLLOW THROUGH, stop the phone,take away the laptop and BE PAITENT, as an adult you should be able to outlast a teen.
and make sure your pre wife has your back, be firm, but kind. And good luck, credit goes to you for being an active part of her life.
This is so ridiculously important liming is not enough. She will try to divide you two. Period. My educated guess is that she is going to target her mother as the weak link. There is nothing you can do to prevent this, but you and your pre-wife need to establish that decisions or allowances are made only when the two of you have discussed it. Also, never, ever have your discussions in front of her, because that will give her leverage in future discussions. If she brings up a topic that you haven't discussed between the two of you, tell her "We'll talk about it and get back to you." As far as she should be concerned in this matter, you two are her parents and there is no differentiation between the two of you.
Got that a few times from my dad when I was growing up. Really makes you feel like an idiot.
Get and hold a job?
Do x specific chore with y frequency over z period of time?
Why not for a long-term goal: independence. Doing her own laundry, cooking, dishes and chores, getting a job, and making sure she keeps up with her academics (not dipping out of school). She should also start planning what direction she want to take in life. Does she want to go to college? A community college or a university? If she isn't interested in secondary schooling, does she want to get a job that can allow for her to move out as soon as possible, or does she plan on staying at home, in which case are you going to allow her to?
Bother me on steam: kabbypan
I kind of like this line of thinking. If she were a couple years younger you could aim for something smaller, but she's close to the point where cruel reality steps up and punches you in the face and she needs to learn that the free ride is going to be over and how to live as a real person.
You can give her some more tangible rewards, too. For instance, if she starts showing up for meals more often, maybe let her help design the (healthy) menu. Have her go shopping with you guys so she gets an idea of how much you spend on feeding her! If she comes along to the store, buy her one of those things she likes like cookies. Even better, buy her the stuff to make her own cookies- that'll give her a reason to be home for a couple of hours.
If you're worried about her friends, have them come over sometime! You don't have to be the "cool parent" but spending time with her and being a bit involved in her life are going to be bridges on the way to treating her like an adult or having rational conversations with her about things.
Shortly after they learned this, I noticed that they had learned it. I was outraged (I'm not sure that they ever noticed that I noticed) and felt like my step-mom was trying to step in between my father and I. Of course, with a step-parent, it's a little awkward anyways; but this, in my pre-teen mind, crossed a big line. Now, anytime my step-mom asks me for help or to do something, I feel resentment welling up inside of me uncontrolled.
tl;dr is basically that, if she can handle it, let the biological parent do most of the disciplining if possible. Certainly you need to be respected and listened to, and kudos for caring so much for the well-being of her child. I just worry that if you entirely take over the responsibility for discipline (in A's eyes) then she may end up resenting you for it.
Other than that, your plan sounds pretty solid. All the parents on here pretty much put my advice to shame, the door thing is a wonderful idea. Just because she's turning 18, however, doesn't mean she's going to be ready to be out on her own. If you and her mom are fine with it, there's no rush to get her out of the house, especially if she isn't showing responsibility.
On the flip-side, she'll probably feel ready to test her wings before you guys are sure she is, and for the most part, she'll probably be right. Sure she'll make a few mistakes, but you'll still be around to call and ask about it, and there's nothing like developing maturity than having to live on your own, and realizing that nobody's going to take responsibility for your silly choices besides yourself.
Is she going to go to college? Are you going to monitor what she chooses to eat there? People eat right when they realize that they have personal responsibility. She'll grow up eventually. The only kids that never grow into responsible adults are the ones that are coddled and never given a chance to take responsibility for themselves.
I think most parents in your situation would just stay the course and eventually when she goes to college or gets a job and moves out, she grows up. Or you can make her do it now. Either way there is no magical cure that doesn't require time.
Money most likely will be a good tangible reward. Offering to give her more cell phone minutes, or, giving her money for a movie this week are also good rewards. Something she can appreciate the value of immediately.