Larva mechanics allow Zergs to get out more units in one production cycle than any other race. This is a significant advantage. Unless you build 30+ Gateways/Barracks, the Zerg is going to significantly outproduce you in the short-term if you trade 200/200 armies.
Right. But like someone said, zerg units suck balls. Those 2 or 3 colossi you built (in addition to 10 or 20 gateway units) will crush like a hundred food worth of zerg dudes.
No, they won't.
Not to mention you can spawn 5 or 6 of a hard counter unit (ie anything that flies) at the same time, at little cost, as well as a ground army. In the time it will take you to build a significant to attack again, the Protoss will, in a typical game, still be building his first replacement Colossus - unless he's got like 3 robos.
Colossi have a build time of 75 - a roach is 27. That's practically three full unit cycles until the first replacement Colossi comes out. Or, if you're a muta/ling kind of guy, two rounds of mutas and three rounds of lings.
Eh, I know that. But to be fair, that 10 seconds becomes less and less of an issue the more and more you slip a bit from macro. Also, in the early stages, delaying my army cycles 10 seconds each time may allow for quicker expansion and quicker teching.
Its not like army is the only way to spend the moneys. Theres other ways to invest that doesnt automatically make warpgates needed for optimal macro. I tend to expand late. Perhaps if I had those increased cycles I would expand sooner!
How many gateways can 1 base support? How many warpgates? What about if they are being chronoed?
Im thinking of maybe sticking to gateways until I expand...
Larva mechanics allow Zergs to get out more units in one production cycle than any other race. This is a significant advantage. Unless you build 30+ Gateways/Barracks, the Zerg is going to significantly outproduce you in the short-term if you trade 200/200 armies.
Right. But like someone said, zerg units suck balls. Those 2 or 3 colossi you built (in addition to 10 or 20 gateway units) will crush like a hundred food worth of zerg dudes.
No, they won't.
Not to mention you can spawn 5 or 6 of a hard counter unit (ie anything that flies) at the same time, at little cost, as well as a ground army. In the time it will take you to build a significant to attack again, the Protoss will, in a typical game, still be building his first replacement Colossus - unless he's got like 3 robos.
Colossi have a build time of 75 - a roach is 27. That's practically three full unit cycles until the first replacement Colossi comes out. Or, if you're a muta/ling kind of guy, two rounds of mutas and three rounds of lings.
Unit cycles are meaningless for zerg!
If it's 75 to 27, then this is how it works.
(I could be wrong on numbers, but larva is 1 larva per 15s, and injection is 4 larva in 40 seconds, right? If not, then re-do the numbers to your leisure)
You spend your current larva (C) on roaches. Those finish before the colossus.
Whoops, you forgot to inject! So you do it now.
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach. It finishes before the colossus.
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach. It finishes before the colossus.
10 seconds later, four larva. You use them on roaches, they finish before the colossus. (40+27=67s)
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach, but it doesn't finish before the colossus. (55+27 = 82)
You don't have 3 production cycles, you have 2 larva and an injection. You put out 6+C roaches, not 3.
This is, of course, assuming that your hatchery is right next to their robo, so that the colossus and roaches start fighting immediately after the colossus pops, because, I mean, come on. Who has that not happened to.
Larva mechanics allow Zergs to get out more units in one production cycle than any other race. This is a significant advantage. Unless you build 30+ Gateways/Barracks, the Zerg is going to significantly outproduce you in the short-term if you trade 200/200 armies.
Right. But like someone said, zerg units suck balls. Those 2 or 3 colossi you built (in addition to 10 or 20 gateway units) will crush like a hundred food worth of zerg dudes.
No, they won't.
Not to mention you can spawn 5 or 6 of a hard counter unit (ie anything that flies) at the same time, at little cost, as well as a ground army. In the time it will take you to build a significant to attack again, the Protoss will, in a typical game, still be building his first replacement Colossus - unless he's got like 3 robos.
Colossi have a build time of 75 - a roach is 27. That's practically three full unit cycles until the first replacement Colossi comes out. Or, if you're a muta/ling kind of guy, two rounds of mutas and three rounds of lings.
Excess larva only lasts for one production cycle. After using the 30 or so larva you've built up, the next time you build those roaches it'll be like 10 larva (assuming 3 bases). And muta/ling gets owned by colossus/stalker with some sentries thrown in.
Both races can expand easier and much more quickly than Protoss. Mostly, its the early mineral costs to get a gateway and core out (because gateway tech is super important) that prevents the true fast expand from Toss. I mean, I guess that you can save the 150 gateway, 150 core and 75 for no gas, and fast expand, but then you have no defense at all, but should be able to mitigate with stuffing your expansion choke with a forge, gates, 1 or two canons, and hide the core and tech in your main.
Are you aware that Zerg and Terran in fact also need to build tech or unit producing structures to have a defense?
Because it kind of sounds here like you're not.
Well, zerg is different, its production building is the hatch, which leads to the fast expand, queen and major droning.
It only has to build tech buildings. If you want to produce 'lings, you need a pool. You don't need 3 to produce 3 sets at the same time.
Terran buildings are much less expensive than toss, generally build faster, and they each can have reactors which doubles production in exchange for not being able to get the tech units. Plus, in general, Terran units build faster, and possess a better econ mechanic due to the MULE.
If I see a zerg FE, best i can do is try to match it, then see if i can damage theirs. Usually, they'll have a queen or two to defend and a couple spine crawlers. If they DONT fast expand, I have to prepare for incoming craziness.
Eh, I know that. But to be fair, that 10 seconds becomes less and less of an issue the more and more you slip a bit from macro. Also, in the early stages, delaying my army cycles 10 seconds each time may allow for quicker expansion and quicker teching.
Its not like army is the only way to spend the moneys. Theres other ways to invest that doesnt automatically make warpgates needed for optimal macro. I tend to expand late. Perhaps if I had those increased cycles I would expand sooner!
How many gateways can 1 base support? How many warpgates? What about if they are being chronoed?
Im thinking of maybe sticking to gateways until I expand...
It's only a 5 second advantage on warped in units. -10s off cool down +5s for warp in.
Both races can expand easier and much more quickly than Protoss. Mostly, its the early mineral costs to get a gateway and core out (because gateway tech is super important) that prevents the true fast expand from Toss. I mean, I guess that you can save the 150 gateway, 150 core and 75 for no gas, and fast expand, but then you have no defense at all, but should be able to mitigate with stuffing your expansion choke with a forge, gates, 1 or two canons, and hide the core and tech in your main.
Are you aware that Zerg and Terran in fact also need to build tech or unit producing structures to have a defense?
Because it kind of sounds here like you're not.
Well, zerg is different, its production building is the hatch, which leads to the fast expand, queen and major droning.
It only has to build tech buildings. If you want to produce 'lings, you need a pool. You don't need 3 to produce 3 sets at the same time.
Terran buildings are much less expensive than toss, generally build faster, and they each can have reactors which doubles production in exchange for not being able to get the tech units. Plus, in general, Terran units build faster, and possess a better econ mechanic due to the MULE.
If I see a zerg FE, best i can do is try to match it, then see if i can damage theirs. Usually, they'll have a queen or two to defend and a couple spine crawlers. If they DONT fast expand, I have to prepare for incoming craziness.
Why, Joe K, are you trying to match a zerg fast expansion?
You can't do it!
Look at it this way. Internalize this.
If you:
1) Scout
2) See a fast expansion
3) Try to match it
you have officially put yourself exactly X seconds behind your opponent, where X is the amount of time it took you to scout the fast expansion, plus the amount of time it takes you to get the minerals necessary to expand. You are artificially putting yourself into a bad position.
Now, if you:
1) Scout
2) See a fast expansion
3) Try to cripple it
you have officially dealt with your opponent's strategy! Now, if you expand while you push out, albeit later than your opponent, if you can deal some damage or cause that expansion to be idle or lose drones, then you have dealt more damage than the minerals he's mined so far are worth. You have put yourself into an advantageous position!
Eh, I know that. But to be fair, that 10 seconds becomes less and less of an issue the more and more you slip a bit from macro. Also, in the early stages, delaying my army cycles 10 seconds each time may allow for quicker expansion and quicker teching.
Its not like army is the only way to spend the moneys. Theres other ways to invest that doesnt automatically make warpgates needed for optimal macro. I tend to expand late. Perhaps if I had those increased cycles I would expand sooner!
How many gateways can 1 base support? How many warpgates? What about if they are being chronoed?
Im thinking of maybe sticking to gateways until I expand...
It's only a 5 second advantage on warped in units. -10s off cool down +5s for warp in.
No, because the cooldown starts when the unit begins the warp in, not when it ends. it's still a 10 second advantage.
Excess larva only lasts for one production cycle. After using the 30 or so larva you've built up, the next time you build those roaches it'll be like 10 larva (assuming 3 bases). And muta/ling gets owned by colossus/stalker with some sentries thrown in.
Seriously? I wouldn't ever want to use Colossi against MutaLing. Once the Lings get a surround on the Cols, the Cols are at a big disadvantage. Or, the Lings surround the Stalkers and eat them up while the Mutas eat up the Cols.
Excess larva only lasts for one production cycle. After using the 30 or so larva you've built up, the next time you build those roaches it'll be like 10 larva (assuming 3 bases). And muta/ling gets owned by colossus/stalker with some sentries thrown in.
Seriously? I wouldn't ever want to use Colossi against MutaLing. Once the Lings get a surround on the Cols, the Cols are at a big disadvantage. Or, the Lings surround the Stalkers and eat them up while the Mutas eat up the Cols.
Excess larva only lasts for one production cycle. After using the 30 or so larva you've built up, the next time you build those roaches it'll be like 10 larva (assuming 3 bases). And muta/ling gets owned by colossus/stalker with some sentries thrown in.
Seriously? I wouldn't ever want to use Colossi against MutaLing. Once the Lings get a surround on the Cols, the Cols are at a big disadvantage. Or, the Lings surround the Stalkers and eat them up while the Mutas eat up the Cols.
But I definitely could be wrong.
That's why he has sentries in that equation
When are Sentries used against Lings (other than Force Fielding a choke)?
OK, yes, Sentries are always useful, but they are not a counter to Zerglings. I just don't understand where Sentries fit into the equation of protecting Colossi from Zergling surround.
Larva mechanics allow Zergs to get out more units in one production cycle than any other race. This is a significant advantage. Unless you build 30+ Gateways/Barracks, the Zerg is going to significantly outproduce you in the short-term if you trade 200/200 armies.
Right. But like someone said, zerg units suck balls. Those 2 or 3 colossi you built (in addition to 10 or 20 gateway units) will crush like a hundred food worth of zerg dudes.
No, they won't.
Not to mention you can spawn 5 or 6 of a hard counter unit (ie anything that flies) at the same time, at little cost, as well as a ground army. In the time it will take you to build a significant to attack again, the Protoss will, in a typical game, still be building his first replacement Colossus - unless he's got like 3 robos.
Colossi have a build time of 75 - a roach is 27. That's practically three full unit cycles until the first replacement Colossi comes out. Or, if you're a muta/ling kind of guy, two rounds of mutas and three rounds of lings.
Unit cycles are meaningless for zerg!
If it's 75 to 27, then this is how it works.
(I could be wrong on numbers, but larva is 1 larva per 15s, and injection is 4 larva in 40 seconds, right? If not, then re-do the numbers to your leisure)
You spend your current larva (C) on roaches. Those finish before the colossus.
Whoops, you forgot to inject! So you do it now.
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach. It finishes before the colossus.
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach. It finishes before the colossus.
10 seconds later, four larva. You use them on roaches, they finish before the colossus. (40+27=67s)
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach, but it doesn't finish before the colossus. (55+27 = 82)
You don't have 3 production cycles, you have 2 larva and an injection. You put out 6+C roaches, not 3.
This is, of course, assuming that your hatchery is right next to their robo, so that the colossus and roaches start fighting immediately after the colossus pops, because, I mean, come on. Who has that not happened to.
If you're sitting on one hatchery, yes, that's how it works.
By the time we're talking collosus, zerg is at least on two, maybe 3 or more hatches, and have been injecting every time they can. The replays that I've watched of good zergs will drone and float resources with the occassional round of lings/blings-morph, maybe a couple roaches, tech, and build larva count until the big push.
assuming an a-move battle, where zerg is still able to keep injecting, and zerg loses his entire force, and the opp, half of his, zerg selects all available larva and generates an army from his huge float. Unless Toss has like 12 gates, a multitude of robos, and enough resources, the zerg army rips through the second time.
OK, yes, Sentries are always useful, but they are not a counter to Zerglings. I just don't understand where Sentries fit into the equation of protecting Colossi from Zergling surround.
Use terrain to your advantage. Stalker ball with sentries and colossi, force field around the stalkers so the lings can't get around them, then you have a ton of DPS and impotent zerglings.
It wouldn't work if you are fighting in the middle of a field.
OK, yes, Sentries are always useful, but they are not a counter to Zerglings. I just don't understand where Sentries fit into the equation of protecting Colossi from Zergling surround.
you MAKE the choke with forcefield... ? do you not really see what I'm trying to say?
Excess larva only lasts for one production cycle. After using the 30 or so larva you've built up, the next time you build those roaches it'll be like 10 larva (assuming 3 bases). And muta/ling gets owned by colossus/stalker with some sentries thrown in.
Seriously? I wouldn't ever want to use Colossi against MutaLing. Once the Lings get a surround on the Cols, the Cols are at a big disadvantage. Or, the Lings surround the Stalkers and eat them up while the Mutas eat up the Cols.
But I definitely could be wrong.
That's why he has sentries in that equation
When are Sentries used against Lings (other than Force Fielding a choke)?
i've seen them used to create a choke/funnel for lings, as well as protect Imms and Colls from surrounds.
Use terrain to your advantage. Stalker ball with sentries and colossi, force field around the stalkers so the lings can't get around them, then you have a ton of DPS and impotent zerglings.
It wouldn't work if you are fighting in the middle of a field.
That's the part that had me, apparently it was assumed in this hypothetical situation that you have a terrain advantage but nobody ever said that. :P
I was thinking more along the lines of Mutas in your back and Lings in your front - now what?
Larva mechanics allow Zergs to get out more units in one production cycle than any other race. This is a significant advantage. Unless you build 30+ Gateways/Barracks, the Zerg is going to significantly outproduce you in the short-term if you trade 200/200 armies.
Right. But like someone said, zerg units suck balls. Those 2 or 3 colossi you built (in addition to 10 or 20 gateway units) will crush like a hundred food worth of zerg dudes.
No, they won't.
Not to mention you can spawn 5 or 6 of a hard counter unit (ie anything that flies) at the same time, at little cost, as well as a ground army. In the time it will take you to build a significant to attack again, the Protoss will, in a typical game, still be building his first replacement Colossus - unless he's got like 3 robos.
Colossi have a build time of 75 - a roach is 27. That's practically three full unit cycles until the first replacement Colossi comes out. Or, if you're a muta/ling kind of guy, two rounds of mutas and three rounds of lings.
Unit cycles are meaningless for zerg!
If it's 75 to 27, then this is how it works.
(I could be wrong on numbers, but larva is 1 larva per 15s, and injection is 4 larva in 40 seconds, right? If not, then re-do the numbers to your leisure)
You spend your current larva (C) on roaches. Those finish before the colossus.
Whoops, you forgot to inject! So you do it now.
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach. It finishes before the colossus.
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach. It finishes before the colossus.
10 seconds later, four larva. You use them on roaches, they finish before the colossus. (40+27=67s)
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach, but it doesn't finish before the colossus. (55+27 = 82)
You don't have 3 production cycles, you have 2 larva and an injection. You put out 6+C roaches, not 3.
This is, of course, assuming that your hatchery is right next to their robo, so that the colossus and roaches start fighting immediately after the colossus pops, because, I mean, come on. Who has that not happened to.
If you're sitting on one hatchery, yes, that's how it works.
By the time we're talking collosus, zerg is at least on two, maybe 3 or more hatches, and have been injecting every time they can. The replays that I've watched of good zergs will drone and float resources with the occassional round of lings/blings-morph, maybe a couple roaches, tech, and build larva count until the big push.
assuming an a-move battle, where zerg is still able to keep injecting, and zerg loses his entire force, and the opp, half of his, zerg selects all available larva and generates an army from his huge float. Unless Toss has like 12 gates, a multitude of robos, and enough resources, the zerg army rips through the second time.
I... what?
I think that you agree with me. Did you read the context of my post? We were talking about how many units you could make as zerg while a colossus is being made. The answer is, for roaches, 6+C.
A general solution is C + (1 + [15/(T-E)]) + 4(40/(T-E)) ; per hatchery
Where C is the number of larva you start with
T is the time it takes to build the unit in question
and E is the time it takes for the enemy to build his unit.
Rend on
0
tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
Im thinking that warpgates actually hurt my play a bit. Depending on map control and what not it may be a lot easier for me to simply rally and use gateways during combat to keep up production. Warpgates are super nice to bring in reinforcements to the front if you have the means to, But you also have to get away from your army to do so.
Always bring a probe or two with your army to pylon up, at the very least in the middle of the field. If you save a camera view on your forward pylons and one on your army, swapping between the two is very quick.
Cutting down the army's travel time to the front is the most important advantage a Protoss has when attacking. Unless, you know, nydus.
To get the Terran anti rush defense (bunker) you get a Barracks, a building that opens up your key macro mechanic and that launches your entire tech tree. You were going to get a Rax no matter what. Also the bunkers can be sold back later for their full cost.
To get the Zerg anti rush defense (spine crawler) you get a Spawning Pool, a building that opens up your key macro mechanic and launches your entire tech tree. You were going to get a Spawning Pool no matter what. Also the spine crawlers can be repositioned as the game goes on to hopefully be useful the whole game.
To get the protoss anti rush defense (photon cannon) you get a Forge, a building that opens up no macro mechanics and launches none of the tech tree. You weren't necessarily going to get a Forge any time soon. And once a photon cannon is placed it is going to sit there for the rest of the game or until it dies. Now, admittedly photon cannons are better than bunkers and spine crawlers as they can shoot up and have detection, but neither of those really matter for early rush defense to defend early expansions.
So, I think its important to note the difference between the two. I'm not saying its horribly unbalanced or anything (I haven't put much thought into it yet personally) but to posit equivalence between the three races on this doesn't seem accurate.
This is a pretty cool analysis, thanks for posting it! I'd like to add that I think this is more true for FE builds than for 1 base rush defense, since the Sentry is the protoss 1 base rush defense unit, which of course comes from the gateway.
The only other no-forge small-army defense I've seen was a Daily where Day9 talked about moving your stalkers to the middle of the map so you can kite his early pressure all the way back to your base, but if you have that kind of awesome micro without hurting your early game macro you're already flying to GSL =P.
edit: Tuxkamen, I usually set my favored warp-in pylon to hotkey zero, rather than an F-key. I'm sure either way works
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
Cutting down the army's travel time to the front is the most important advantage a Protoss has when attacking. Unless, you know, nydus.
I would really love to see more "straightforward" Nydus play. Put it up out front like a forward Pylon, or pop one at a risky expansion so you can always get back there to defend when you need to. Nydus doesn't seem to get much love except to tunnel straight into the opponent's base.
Stasis on
0
tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
To get the Terran anti rush defense (bunker) you get a Barracks, a building that opens up your key macro mechanic and that launches your entire tech tree. You were going to get a Rax no matter what. Also the bunkers can be sold back later for their full cost.
To get the Zerg anti rush defense (spine crawler) you get a Spawning Pool, a building that opens up your key macro mechanic and launches your entire tech tree. You were going to get a Spawning Pool no matter what. Also the spine crawlers can be repositioned as the game goes on to hopefully be useful the whole game.
To get the protoss anti rush defense (photon cannon) you get a Forge, a building that opens up no macro mechanics and launches none of the tech tree. You weren't necessarily going to get a Forge any time soon. And once a photon cannon is placed it is going to sit there for the rest of the game or until it dies. Now, admittedly photon cannons are better than bunkers and spine crawlers as they can shoot up and have detection, but neither of those really matter for early rush defense to defend early expansions.
So, I think its important to note the difference between the two. I'm not saying its horribly unbalanced or anything (I haven't put much thought into it yet personally) but to posit equivalence between the three races on this doesn't seem accurate.
This is a pretty cool analysis, thanks for posting it! I'd like to add that I think this is more true for FE builds than for 1 base rush defense, since the Sentry is the protoss 1 base rush defense unit, which of course comes from the gateway.
The only other no-forge small-army defense I've seen was a Daily where Day9 talked about moving your stalkers to the middle of the map so you can kite his early pressure all the way back to your base, but if you have that kind of awesome micro without hurting your early game macro you're already flying to GSL =P.
If you practice that 5-stalker rush against the VH AI, believe me--you'll get ample kite/macro practice.
Cutting down the army's travel time to the front is the most important advantage a Protoss has when attacking. Unless, you know, nydus.
I would really love to see more "straightforward" Nydus play. Put it up out front like a forward Pylon, or pop one at a risky expansion so you can always get back there to defend when you need to. Nydus doesn't seem to get much love except to tunnel straight into the opponent's base.
CellaWerra did an amazing double-nydus on both sides of his opponent's main on Shakuras last night. It was pretty disgusting.
Cutting down the army's travel time to the front is the most important advantage a Protoss has when attacking. Unless, you know, nydus.
I would really love to see more "straightforward" Nydus play. Put it up out front like a forward Pylon, or pop one at a risky expansion so you can always get back there to defend when you need to. Nydus doesn't seem to get much love except to tunnel straight into the opponent's base.
CellaWerra did an amazing double-nydus on both sides of his opponent's main on Shakuras last night. It was pretty disgusting.
Nice. Was it a live stream or can I see that replay somewhere?
I think that you agree with me. Did you read the context of my post? We were talking about how many units you could make as zerg while a colossus is being made. The answer is, for roaches, 6+C.
A general solution is C + (1 + [15/(T-E)]) + 4(40/(T-E)) ; per hatchery
Where C is the number of larva you start with
T is the time it takes to build the unit in question
and E is the time it takes for the enemy to build his unit.
Ok, yes, I agree with you. I had no idea how C was defined, or that you were calculating off of more than one hatch.
Always bring a probe or two with your army to pylon up, at the very least in the middle of the field. If you save a camera view on your forward pylons and one on your army, swapping between the two is very quick.
Yeah, I havent EVER used camera views. This is something I discovered existed a few days ago and havent been able to play since. I do think they will help a ton. Maybe even just hotkey my forward pylon to like 0 or something.
I definately need to work on my hand speed and natural ability to flip between areas of interest. So avoiding the issue by going gateway probably doesnt help much. I need to just spend a dozen or so games not worrying about winning or losing and just focusing on getting good camera movement and making sure my army hotkeys are right and that I am comfortable using them.
Ive been going one hotkey for my army, but I think im going to move on to 3. Ill suck for a bit, but i think in the end itll help a lot. Being able to focus down their immortals with my units while I make sure MY immortals dont waste shots on them easier will help. Being able to make sure my immortals/sentries/zealots are in front of my stalkers easier will help too.
Basically, I think a part of me needs to take the speed of the game up a notch. There too many times where I feel like im in slow motion. I need all this to be instictive rather then thinking "oh I need my forcefields, let me tab, tab, tab, oh shit I passed up sentries. Tab, tab, tab. Ok now...S? Shit wrong key. Oh its too late, the lings are upon me."
Im thinking that warpgates actually hurt my play a bit. Depending on map control and what not it may be a lot easier for me to simply rally and use gateways during combat to keep up production. Warpgates are super nice to bring in reinforcements to the front if you have the means to, But you also have to get away from your army to do so.
Always bring a probe or two with your army to pylon up, at the very least in the middle of the field. If you save a camera view on your forward pylons and one on your army, swapping between the two is very quick.
Cutting down the army's travel time to the front is the most important advantage a Protoss has when attacking. Unless, you know, nydus.
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
I like watching the daily and knowing what he's gonna say
my control is terrible and the last couple of days I've had issues with responding to what I see but I feel like I actually understand basic concepts now rather than just hearing they work and believing it.
Cutting down the army's travel time to the front is the most important advantage a Protoss has when attacking. Unless, you know, nydus.
I would really love to see more "straightforward" Nydus play. Put it up out front like a forward Pylon, or pop one at a risky expansion so you can always get back there to defend when you need to. Nydus doesn't seem to get much love except to tunnel straight into the opponent's base.
CellaWerra did an amazing double-nydus on both sides of his opponent's main on Shakuras last night. It was pretty disgusting.
Nice. Was it a live stream or can I see that replay somewhere?
It was on his stream, which is recorded I believe if you hit the livestream page. Let me see if I can find it...
Im thinking that warpgates actually hurt my play a bit. Depending on map control and what not it may be a lot easier for me to simply rally and use gateways during combat to keep up production. Warpgates are super nice to bring in reinforcements to the front if you have the means to, But you also have to get away from your army to do so.
Always bring a probe or two with your army to pylon up, at the very least in the middle of the field. If you save a camera view on your forward pylons and one on your army, swapping between the two is very quick.
Cutting down the army's travel time to the front is the most important advantage a Protoss has when attacking. Unless, you know, nydus.
This is why I like Warp Prisms so much.
A warp prism saved me in my first game on Scrap last night. I busted the opponent's front with my army, cleaned out his VRs and cannon line. He proceeded to GG but not actually leave because he had the island. So I sat there with two armies on the edges of both our bases. When he poked his VRs and I blew them up, I sent in a warp prism to the top of the island and warped in eight stalkers to clean his probes up from the back.
Good times. Good times.
EDIT: I guess I shouldn't say that it *saved* me, but I had no stargates at that time and he was farming up more VRs on the island.
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No, they won't.
Not to mention you can spawn 5 or 6 of a hard counter unit (ie anything that flies) at the same time, at little cost, as well as a ground army. In the time it will take you to build a significant to attack again, the Protoss will, in a typical game, still be building his first replacement Colossus - unless he's got like 3 robos.
Colossi have a build time of 75 - a roach is 27. That's practically three full unit cycles until the first replacement Colossi comes out. Or, if you're a muta/ling kind of guy, two rounds of mutas and three rounds of lings.
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Its not like army is the only way to spend the moneys. Theres other ways to invest that doesnt automatically make warpgates needed for optimal macro. I tend to expand late. Perhaps if I had those increased cycles I would expand sooner!
How many gateways can 1 base support? How many warpgates? What about if they are being chronoed?
Im thinking of maybe sticking to gateways until I expand...
Unit cycles are meaningless for zerg!
If it's 75 to 27, then this is how it works.
(I could be wrong on numbers, but larva is 1 larva per 15s, and injection is 4 larva in 40 seconds, right? If not, then re-do the numbers to your leisure)
You spend your current larva (C) on roaches. Those finish before the colossus.
Whoops, you forgot to inject! So you do it now.
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach. It finishes before the colossus.
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach. It finishes before the colossus.
10 seconds later, four larva. You use them on roaches, they finish before the colossus. (40+27=67s)
15 seconds later, another larva. You use it on a roach, but it doesn't finish before the colossus. (55+27 = 82)
You don't have 3 production cycles, you have 2 larva and an injection. You put out 6+C roaches, not 3.
This is, of course, assuming that your hatchery is right next to their robo, so that the colossus and roaches start fighting immediately after the colossus pops, because, I mean, come on. Who has that not happened to.
Excess larva only lasts for one production cycle. After using the 30 or so larva you've built up, the next time you build those roaches it'll be like 10 larva (assuming 3 bases). And muta/ling gets owned by colossus/stalker with some sentries thrown in.
Well, zerg is different, its production building is the hatch, which leads to the fast expand, queen and major droning.
It only has to build tech buildings. If you want to produce 'lings, you need a pool. You don't need 3 to produce 3 sets at the same time.
Terran buildings are much less expensive than toss, generally build faster, and they each can have reactors which doubles production in exchange for not being able to get the tech units. Plus, in general, Terran units build faster, and possess a better econ mechanic due to the MULE.
If I see a zerg FE, best i can do is try to match it, then see if i can damage theirs. Usually, they'll have a queen or two to defend and a couple spine crawlers. If they DONT fast expand, I have to prepare for incoming craziness.
Joe's Stream.
It's only a 5 second advantage on warped in units. -10s off cool down +5s for warp in.
Joe's Stream.
Why, Joe K, are you trying to match a zerg fast expansion?
You can't do it!
Look at it this way. Internalize this.
If you:
1) Scout
2) See a fast expansion
3) Try to match it
you have officially put yourself exactly X seconds behind your opponent, where X is the amount of time it took you to scout the fast expansion, plus the amount of time it takes you to get the minerals necessary to expand. You are artificially putting yourself into a bad position.
Now, if you:
1) Scout
2) See a fast expansion
3) Try to cripple it
you have officially dealt with your opponent's strategy! Now, if you expand while you push out, albeit later than your opponent, if you can deal some damage or cause that expansion to be idle or lose drones, then you have dealt more damage than the minerals he's mined so far are worth. You have put yourself into an advantageous position!
No, because the cooldown starts when the unit begins the warp in, not when it ends. it's still a 10 second advantage.
Oh ok, for a moment I thought I just sucked.
Seriously? I wouldn't ever want to use Colossi against MutaLing. Once the Lings get a surround on the Cols, the Cols are at a big disadvantage. Or, the Lings surround the Stalkers and eat them up while the Mutas eat up the Cols.
But I definitely could be wrong.
That's why he has sentries in that equation
When are Sentries used against Lings (other than Force Fielding a choke)?
If you're sitting on one hatchery, yes, that's how it works.
By the time we're talking collosus, zerg is at least on two, maybe 3 or more hatches, and have been injecting every time they can. The replays that I've watched of good zergs will drone and float resources with the occassional round of lings/blings-morph, maybe a couple roaches, tech, and build larva count until the big push.
assuming an a-move battle, where zerg is still able to keep injecting, and zerg loses his entire force, and the opp, half of his, zerg selects all available larva and generates an army from his huge float. Unless Toss has like 12 gates, a multitude of robos, and enough resources, the zerg army rips through the second time.
Joe's Stream.
Use terrain to your advantage. Stalker ball with sentries and colossi, force field around the stalkers so the lings can't get around them, then you have a ton of DPS and impotent zerglings.
It wouldn't work if you are fighting in the middle of a field.
you MAKE the choke with forcefield... ? do you not really see what I'm trying to say?
it's one of the best spells in the game
Depending on the answer/schedule I may have to drop.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
i've seen them used to create a choke/funnel for lings, as well as protect Imms and Colls from surrounds.
Joe's Stream.
That's the part that had me, apparently it was assumed in this hypothetical situation that you have a terrain advantage but nobody ever said that. :P
I was thinking more along the lines of Mutas in your back and Lings in your front - now what?
EDIT: Alright, I'm TheoryCrafting. Nevermind. :P
Can you change the link to my livestream in the OP to http://www.own3d.tv/live/5043
thankyou!
I... what?
I think that you agree with me. Did you read the context of my post? We were talking about how many units you could make as zerg while a colossus is being made. The answer is, for roaches, 6+C.
A general solution is C + (1 + [15/(T-E)]) + 4(40/(T-E)) ; per hatchery
Where C is the number of larva you start with
T is the time it takes to build the unit in question
and E is the time it takes for the enemy to build his unit.
Always bring a probe or two with your army to pylon up, at the very least in the middle of the field. If you save a camera view on your forward pylons and one on your army, swapping between the two is very quick.
Cutting down the army's travel time to the front is the most important advantage a Protoss has when attacking. Unless, you know, nydus.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
I'd do it right now for ya, if ya know, my thread hadn't got jacked again. :P
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This is a pretty cool analysis, thanks for posting it! I'd like to add that I think this is more true for FE builds than for 1 base rush defense, since the Sentry is the protoss 1 base rush defense unit, which of course comes from the gateway.
The only other no-forge small-army defense I've seen was a Daily where Day9 talked about moving your stalkers to the middle of the map so you can kite his early pressure all the way back to your base, but if you have that kind of awesome micro without hurting your early game macro you're already flying to GSL =P.
edit: Tuxkamen, I usually set my favored warp-in pylon to hotkey zero, rather than an F-key. I'm sure either way works
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
I would really love to see more "straightforward" Nydus play. Put it up out front like a forward Pylon, or pop one at a risky expansion so you can always get back there to defend when you need to. Nydus doesn't seem to get much love except to tunnel straight into the opponent's base.
If you practice that 5-stalker rush against the VH AI, believe me--you'll get ample kite/macro practice.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
You gotta be more on the ball Dover! But, I promise not to take it this time
CellaWerra did an amazing double-nydus on both sides of his opponent's main on Shakuras last night. It was pretty disgusting.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Nice. Was it a live stream or can I see that replay somewhere?
Ok, yes, I agree with you. I had no idea how C was defined, or that you were calculating off of more than one hatch.
Joe's Stream.
Yeah, I havent EVER used camera views. This is something I discovered existed a few days ago and havent been able to play since. I do think they will help a ton. Maybe even just hotkey my forward pylon to like 0 or something.
I definately need to work on my hand speed and natural ability to flip between areas of interest. So avoiding the issue by going gateway probably doesnt help much. I need to just spend a dozen or so games not worrying about winning or losing and just focusing on getting good camera movement and making sure my army hotkeys are right and that I am comfortable using them.
Ive been going one hotkey for my army, but I think im going to move on to 3. Ill suck for a bit, but i think in the end itll help a lot. Being able to focus down their immortals with my units while I make sure MY immortals dont waste shots on them easier will help. Being able to make sure my immortals/sentries/zealots are in front of my stalkers easier will help too.
Basically, I think a part of me needs to take the speed of the game up a notch. There too many times where I feel like im in slow motion. I need all this to be instictive rather then thinking "oh I need my forcefields, let me tab, tab, tab, oh shit I passed up sentries. Tab, tab, tab. Ok now...S? Shit wrong key. Oh its too late, the lings are upon me."
This is why I like Warp Prisms so much.
Not yet
my control is terrible and the last couple of days I've had issues with responding to what I see but I feel like I actually understand basic concepts now rather than just hearing they work and believing it.
It was on his stream, which is recorded I believe if you hit the livestream page. Let me see if I can find it...
OK, here it is:
Cella's stream from last night - jump to 1:22:30.
The best part about this is that the guy he's playing was *also* streaming, so we could see both players at once.
The second part about this is that he does it 5:30 into the game.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
A warp prism saved me in my first game on Scrap last night.
Good times. Good times.
EDIT: I guess I shouldn't say that it *saved* me, but I had no stargates at that time and he was farming up more VRs on the island.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla