So, im looking at the numbers. It looks like Archons are a bit better then ultralisks. Or a tleast very comparible. And yet nobody uses archons.
DPS wise they are even. Except the ultra does signifigantly better against armored while the Archon does a bit better against bio. Head to head, the archon would destroy the Ultra.
Archons can shoot up.
Archons get a 1 radius to their attack. Though this is probably not as good as the Ultras attack.
Ultras have 100 more health. But ultras are considered armored, so a lot of units get bonus against them, archons arent.
Its just interesting to me that nobody uses them. Admittedly, colossus and storm negate a bit of their use. But, theyd be a pretty good unit if youve gone DT and now see your enemy has detection. You can suddenly have a splash, high DPS, semi-tank unit without any tech change. I think DT harass to archon may be a tricky little move that could work.
So, im looking at the numbers. It looks like Archons are a bit better then ultralisks. Or a tleast very comparible. And yet nobody uses archons.
DPS wise they are even. Except the ultra does signifigantly better against armored while the Archon does a bit better against bio. Head to head, the archon would destroy the Ultra.
Archons can shoot up.
Archons get a 1 radius to their attack. Though this is probably not as good as the Ultras attack.
Ultras have 100 more health. But ultras are considered armored, so a lot of units get bonus against them, archons arent.
Its just interesting to me that nobody uses them. Admittedly, colossus and storm negate a bit of their use. But, theyd be a pretty good unit if youve gone DT and now see your enemy has detection. You can suddenly have a splash, high DPS, semi-tank unit without any tech change. I think DT harass to archon may be a tricky little move that could work.
I think the potential for 7 armor makes Ultras a bit more desirable as damage sinks.
So, im looking at the numbers. It looks like Archons are a bit better then ultralisks. Or a tleast very comparible. And yet nobody uses archons.
DPS wise they are even. Except the ultra does signifigantly better against armored while the Archon does a bit better against bio. Head to head, the archon would destroy the Ultra.
Archons can shoot up.
Archons get a 1 radius to their attack. Though this is probably not as good as the Ultras attack.
Ultras have 100 more health. But ultras are considered armored, so a lot of units get bonus against them, archons arent.
Its just interesting to me that nobody uses them. Admittedly, colossus and storm negate a bit of their use. But, theyd be a pretty good unit if youve gone DT and now see your enemy has detection. You can suddenly have a splash, high DPS, semi-tank unit without any tech change. I think DT harass to archon may be a tricky little move that could work.
actually i remember thinking this too, and 1v1, with identical upgrades, the ultra wins (but it has very little health left).
still, you have to remember, archons cost more gas than ultras. they are supposed to be better. they were crazy powerful against zerg in sc1, but no one used them then either.
So, im looking at the numbers. It looks like Archons are a bit better then ultralisks. Or a tleast very comparible. And yet nobody uses archons.
DPS wise they are even. Except the ultra does signifigantly better against armored while the Archon does a bit better against bio. Head to head, the archon would destroy the Ultra.
Archons can shoot up.
Archons get a 1 radius to their attack. Though this is probably not as good as the Ultras attack.
Ultras have 100 more health. But ultras are considered armored, so a lot of units get bonus against them, archons arent.
Its just interesting to me that nobody uses them. Admittedly, colossus and storm negate a bit of their use. But, theyd be a pretty good unit if youve gone DT and now see your enemy has detection. You can suddenly have a splash, high DPS, semi-tank unit without any tech change. I think DT harass to archon may be a tricky little move that could work.
I think the potential for 7 armor makes Ultras a bit more desirable as damage sinks.
So, im looking at the numbers. It looks like Archons are a bit better then ultralisks. Or a tleast very comparible. And yet nobody uses archons.
DPS wise they are even. Except the ultra does signifigantly better against armored while the Archon does a bit better against bio. Head to head, the archon would destroy the Ultra.
Archons can shoot up.
Archons get a 1 radius to their attack. Though this is probably not as good as the Ultras attack.
Ultras have 100 more health. But ultras are considered armored, so a lot of units get bonus against them, archons arent.
Its just interesting to me that nobody uses them. Admittedly, colossus and storm negate a bit of their use. But, theyd be a pretty good unit if youve gone DT and now see your enemy has detection. You can suddenly have a splash, high DPS, semi-tank unit without any tech change. I think DT harass to archon may be a tricky little move that could work.
I think the potential for 7 armor makes Ultras a bit more desirable as damage sinks.
Well archons dont always cost that much gas. They can cost a mere 250 gas. Which is comparitable to other massive units.
But yeah, the inability for them to actually reach the unit is questionable. They can catch an unupgraded roach off creep. They dont make the best front line unit, no. But you can easily work around that. Blink surround the enemy then move in with your archons.
Really the only major issue is the marauder. If they allowed archons to be immune to the concussive shells, theyd be viable against terran bio.
I wish they had a way to get to mutas. Right now mutas just seem too good against toss. Toss has one unit that can catch them, which gets owned in cost-cost measurements and is rather useless against the rest of zergs forces. An archon or two at your expo may act similar to thors though and simply scare the mutas off.
Im not saying they are an end all be all unit. But they may be a good switch if youve gone DT and they countered with heavy detection. They do need a buff I think. Something to allow them to catch mutas. Maybe an AOE spell that slows the enemy.
So, im looking at the numbers. It looks like Archons are a bit better then ultralisks. Or a tleast very comparible. And yet nobody uses archons.
DPS wise they are even. Except the ultra does signifigantly better against armored while the Archon does a bit better against bio. Head to head, the archon would destroy the Ultra.
Archons can shoot up.
Archons get a 1 radius to their attack. Though this is probably not as good as the Ultras attack.
Ultras have 100 more health. But ultras are considered armored, so a lot of units get bonus against them, archons arent.
Its just interesting to me that nobody uses them. Admittedly, colossus and storm negate a bit of their use. But, theyd be a pretty good unit if youve gone DT and now see your enemy has detection. You can suddenly have a splash, high DPS, semi-tank unit without any tech change. I think DT harass to archon may be a tricky little move that could work.
I think the potential for 7 armor makes Ultras a bit more desirable as damage sinks.
More accurately, you pay 100/300 for 2 storms, a ten second wait, and one archon. In most cases you really are better off leaving DTs as DTs, even if they have detection.
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
So,I read that discussion about Protoss and Zerg FE a few pages back and I guess I am right to assume that:
If P scouts Z FE then P should not FE also but instead just go fucking kill Z.
Is that about right?
depends. did he drop 3 spine crawlers to protect his natural? did he actually get a bit of an army after the hatch pop? are there 2 queens there to add to the defense?
So,I read that discussion about Protoss and Zerg FE a few pages back and I guess I am right to assume that:
If P scouts Z FE then P should not FE also but instead just go fucking kill Z.
Is that about right?
depends. did he drop 3 spine crawlers to protect his natural? did he actually get a bit of an army after the hatch pop? are there 2 queens there to add to the defense?
I'm not saying the fast expand is undefendable, but you can't just expand yourself.
It is like a jogger trying to catch up to a sprinter. Not only is he already there, but he's going to be faster than you anyway. You need to exploit your advantages, which do NOT include catching up to zerg expansion.
Rend on
0
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
Even if you can't kill a Zerg FE, pressuring it forces them to make units instead of Drones and slows down their economy.
Even if you can't kill a Zerg FE, pressuring it forces them to make units instead of Drones and slows down their economy.
This is exactly the right answer. If they have defended incorrectly, you outright kill them. If they have defended correctly you threaten them, forcing them to make more units then they'd like to, delaying the amount of time for the hatchery to pay for itself.
I think Day[9] did a great job showing that in the Socke vs Sen match he analyzed. Steady pressure keeps the inevitable Muta count low.
So,I read that discussion about Protoss and Zerg FE a few pages back and I guess I am right to assume that:
If P scouts Z FE then P should not FE also but instead just go fucking kill Z.
Is that about right?
depends. did he drop 3 spine crawlers to protect his natural? did he actually get a bit of an army after the hatch pop? are there 2 queens there to add to the defense?
I'm not saying the fast expand is undefendable, but you can't just expand yourself.
It is like a jogger trying to catch up to a sprinter. Not only is he already there, but he's going to be faster than you anyway. You need to exploit your advantages, which do NOT include catching up to zerg expansion.
Why can't you fast expand in response? I've had some success, and Dhal has had much more success with the fast expand as P. If anything, P units and structures require more resources to produce, so you should be looking to double dip as fast as you can.
-- on edit --
If you don't kill/cripple the fast expand without expanding yourself, you are now going to behind in unit count, peons and the magic of chrono. I guess that the choice is to keep up with expansions, or try to keep the pressure on effectively.
So,I read that discussion about Protoss and Zerg FE a few pages back and I guess I am right to assume that:
If P scouts Z FE then P should not FE also but instead just go fucking kill Z.
Is that about right?
depends. did he drop 3 spine crawlers to protect his natural? did he actually get a bit of an army after the hatch pop? are there 2 queens there to add to the defense?
I'm not saying the fast expand is undefendable, but you can't just expand yourself.
It is like a jogger trying to catch up to a sprinter. Not only is he already there, but he's going to be faster than you anyway. You need to exploit your advantages, which do NOT include catching up to zerg expansion.
Why can't you fast expand in response? I've had some success, and Dhal has had much more success with the fast expand as P. If anything, P units and structures require more resources to produce, so you should be looking to double dip as fast as you can.
Generally your build isn't designed to expand at that exact point, so it introduces inefficiency into your play. Also zerg expansions are cheaper, and expanding yourself basically lets your opponent know that "Hey, it's safe to drone" or "Hey, that expansion is a lot harder to defend than their ramp." Larva rounds of drones means their expansion pays off faster than yours, further exacerbating the mineral difference. Or he just makes a few rounds of slings and harasses your building expo, which is almost always in a harder to defend location than your main.
It's like you completely negate the zerg's risk in fast expanding, and instead open up holes in your own game. It's bad decision making.
He began it with a four-gate
He could do it
He would play straight
It wouldn't matter what he scouted
his opponent
would be routed
He passed up the Xel'Naga tower
but what he saw
made him cower
So he retreated back to his base
and stopped his 4 gate
it was a disgrace
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are yo okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
will you tell us that you're okay?
You tried to catch up to a quick hatch
but minutes later
you were dispatched Joe K
You did not have a defense, so
when he came, he
didn't let go,
And you tried your best to pull through
but he had too much
he had killed you
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
You've been beat by-
been GG'd by-
a poor strategy!
Joe, the moral of the story is that if you want to fast expand, more power to you. But you can't transform your build into a fast expansion after scouting- then it's a slow expand! You've got to make a plan and stick to it.
All this "switch strategies as soon as you scout" business is losing you games, if I would hazard a guess.
So, im looking at the numbers. It looks like Archons are a bit better then ultralisks. Or a tleast very comparible. And yet nobody uses archons.
DPS wise they are even. Except the ultra does signifigantly better against armored while the Archon does a bit better against bio. Head to head, the archon would destroy the Ultra.
Archons can shoot up.
Archons get a 1 radius to their attack. Though this is probably not as good as the Ultras attack.
Ultras have 100 more health. But ultras are considered armored, so a lot of units get bonus against them, archons arent.
Its just interesting to me that nobody uses them. Admittedly, colossus and storm negate a bit of their use. But, theyd be a pretty good unit if youve gone DT and now see your enemy has detection. You can suddenly have a splash, high DPS, semi-tank unit without any tech change. I think DT harass to archon may be a tricky little move that could work.
I use lots of High Templar against Zerg, and when they go ultras, I make lots of Archons. Archons keep the ultras away from the stalkers/colossi/zealots and do lots of damage to them. I'm a big fan.
I use lots of High Templar against Zerg, and when they go ultras, I make lots of Archons. Archons keep the ultras away from the stalkers/colossi/zealots and do lots of damage to them. I'm a big fan.
Posts
DPS wise they are even. Except the ultra does signifigantly better against armored while the Archon does a bit better against bio. Head to head, the archon would destroy the Ultra.
Archons can shoot up.
Archons get a 1 radius to their attack. Though this is probably not as good as the Ultras attack.
Ultras have 100 more health. But ultras are considered armored, so a lot of units get bonus against them, archons arent.
Its just interesting to me that nobody uses them. Admittedly, colossus and storm negate a bit of their use. But, theyd be a pretty good unit if youve gone DT and now see your enemy has detection. You can suddenly have a splash, high DPS, semi-tank unit without any tech change. I think DT harass to archon may be a tricky little move that could work.
that just leaves a terrible taste in my mouth
I think the potential for 7 armor makes Ultras a bit more desirable as damage sinks.
Our first game is now available for free on Google Play: Frontier: Isle of the Seven Gods
Also they will never catch a mutalisk, catch a kiting roach, or get in range of hydras.
this is important
actually i remember thinking this too, and 1v1, with identical upgrades, the ultra wins (but it has very little health left).
still, you have to remember, archons cost more gas than ultras. they are supposed to be better. they were crazy powerful against zerg in sc1, but no one used them then either.
isnt it 5 armor?
Actually, Archons are either 100/300, 175/275, or 250/250. Pick your price!
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2 base + 3 upgrade + 2 chitinous plating, right?
But yeah, the inability for them to actually reach the unit is questionable. They can catch an unupgraded roach off creep. They dont make the best front line unit, no. But you can easily work around that. Blink surround the enemy then move in with your archons.
Really the only major issue is the marauder. If they allowed archons to be immune to the concussive shells, theyd be viable against terran bio.
I wish they had a way to get to mutas. Right now mutas just seem too good against toss. Toss has one unit that can catch them, which gets owned in cost-cost measurements and is rather useless against the rest of zergs forces. An archon or two at your expo may act similar to thors though and simply scare the mutas off.
Im not saying they are an end all be all unit. But they may be a good switch if youve gone DT and they countered with heavy detection. They do need a buff I think. Something to allow them to catch mutas. Maybe an AOE spell that slows the enemy.
aaaaaaa
Why thank you.
EDIT: I edited your livestream, Trus.
The thread is approaching 100 pages. LET OUR FINAL BATTLE BEGIN, DOVER.
I thought they started with 1 armor.
I know it doesn't I'm jus sayin
no
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
they aren't even close to cost effective. They're only good as a bailout option after no energy/enemy detection
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
If P scouts Z FE then P should not FE also but instead just go fucking kill Z.
Is that about right?
depends. did he drop 3 spine crawlers to protect his natural? did he actually get a bit of an army after the hatch pop? are there 2 queens there to add to the defense?
Joe's Stream.
Yes.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
I'm not saying the fast expand is undefendable, but you can't just expand yourself.
It is like a jogger trying to catch up to a sprinter. Not only is he already there, but he's going to be faster than you anyway. You need to exploit your advantages, which do NOT include catching up to zerg expansion.
I think Day[9] did a great job showing that in the Socke vs Sen match he analyzed. Steady pressure keeps the inevitable Muta count low.
Why can't you fast expand in response? I've had some success, and Dhal has had much more success with the fast expand as P. If anything, P units and structures require more resources to produce, so you should be looking to double dip as fast as you can.
-- on edit --
If you don't kill/cripple the fast expand without expanding yourself, you are now going to behind in unit count, peons and the magic of chrono. I guess that the choice is to keep up with expansions, or try to keep the pressure on effectively.
Joe's Stream.
It's like you completely negate the zerg's risk in fast expanding, and instead open up holes in your own game. It's bad decision making.
He could do it
He would play straight
It wouldn't matter what he scouted
his opponent
would be routed
He passed up the Xel'Naga tower
but what he saw
made him cower
So he retreated back to his base
and stopped his 4 gate
it was a disgrace
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are yo okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
will you tell us that you're okay?
You tried to catch up to a quick hatch
but minutes later
you were dispatched Joe K
You did not have a defense, so
when he came, he
didn't let go,
And you tried your best to pull through
but he had too much
he had killed you
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
Joe K are you okay,
Joe K are you okay,
Are you okay Joe K?
You've been beat by-
been GG'd by-
a poor strategy!
If a Zerg goes FE and you scout it,you should harass/attack the shit out of him.
EDIT: OMG! Reported for awesome and if I could sing I would record this as a video ASAP.
edit: reported for awesome.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
All this "switch strategies as soon as you scout" business is losing you games, if I would hazard a guess.
I'm very tempted to try this.
The hardest part would be adapting to the slightly different rhythm.
I use lots of High Templar against Zerg, and when they go ultras, I make lots of Archons. Archons keep the ultras away from the stalkers/colossi/zealots and do lots of damage to them. I'm a big fan.
Archons. Protoss' late game forcefields.
Some of the lines require a leading syllable, other than that it should be pretty much identical, I think
Yeah, I'll need to start a few lines earlier than Jackson does. With a little practice it shouldn't be too hard.
Though "Joe K are you okay" was a hell of a tongue twister when I first tried it.