That depends how much HP, armor, and MR you have. There are different breakeven points depending on your stats I believe. I feel like when I'm in late game and I have less than 3000hp as a tank something is wrong. I don't know.
Everyone shutup. We're not going to start theorycrafting this again. Just get health, then get armor, then don't die and kill someone.
I think Paradox did a lot of theory math on the best health and resistance ratios. I think somewhere around 2500-3000hp then resistances are way better.
I don't think "everybody shut up, we're not going to discuss this" is usually felt to be a polite conversation tactic.
But I could be wrong here, I often am.
Also AFAIK it's not as simple as "at X HP you should always just stack more resists". It's more like "at X HP and less than Y armor/MR then resists are better". There's a proper balance in other words which is what I'm seeking. If there's a formula hanging around I'd love to have it.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
0
Custom SpecialI know I am, I'm sure I am,I'm Sounders 'til I die!Registered Userregular
so. I have officially sucked at this game all night. yesterday and today have equated to... Stopgap gets his ass kicked, over and over. I feel that my favorite charactor, tryndamere is just sucking right now.
What? No. Tryndamere is awesome right now. He just has a high skill cap.
Formula
If Current Health > 1200 + 12*(Armour+MR)/2, buy Armour and MR. Else, buy more Health.
Values Used
Health: 2.6g/pt
Armor: 15.6g/pt
MR: 15.4g/pt
Total cost for 1% increase: 31g
Conclusion
If your current health is greater than 1200 + 12*Per, where Per is the average between your Armour and MR, then buy more Armour and MR.
Current Health > 1200 + 12*(Armour+MR)/2
or if you rather:
Current Health > 12 * (100+(Armour+MR)/2)
more precise would be:
Current Health > 31/2.6 * (100+(Armour+MR)/2)
Eddy on
"and the morning stars I have seen
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Thanks for randomly dropping some "please come back" money into my otherwise-dormant phone, as it is easily if inefficiently converted into Riot Points.
Much obliged,
<Zoelef>
Your former mobile provider bought you spaceman Teemo as an early Christmas gift?
How thoughtful of them.
I'm $5 short of a single legendary skin, but I already have a "legendary" skin for Singed (thanks, Lunysgwen!), so I'm not in any rush. Corporate Mundo is my go-to in this case, though.
Humorously enough, I bought a year upfront from my current mobile provider and have barely put a dent into it. Can't wait until the year expires!
Edit: So it appears to be as I thought, I need a little more HP to break even if I'm exceeding 150 armor/MR and my HP is only around 2500-2800 as frequently happens to me lategame. I'll be tankier if I adjust my build to either of the above rather than the relatively HP-starved Aegis/Randuin's/FoN build which adds only 570 HP.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Some of my buddies swear by an early Warmog's and then just stacking mitigation for Shen. I won't be able to swear on the effectiveness of that build since I play Morde where mitigation is king.
Eddy on
"and the morning stars I have seen
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
I'll admit it also sounds like a lot of fun to have a shitload of HP/5. I'm kind of a sucker for HP regen even though I know it's not that great in fights. I don't like having to back to heal up.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
0
CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
With a FoN and Randuin's you're getting a silly amount of HP regen
I've read that you want to get 160+ armor/mr before you start stacking health. this isn't saying don't buy health, it is saying don't prioritize health over resistance.
in other news, i played some jungle fiddles last night. wicked fun. better than before.
Some of my buddies swear by an early Warmog's and then just stacking mitigation for Shen. I won't be able to swear on the effectiveness of that build since I play Morde where mitigation is king.
Mitigation is king, but I only recently dropped Warmogs from my Morde build. Before I dropped Warmogs, it felt like a lot of games I would just not have enough HP or enough recovery if I didn't build it. That might be because when I pick Morde I'm always the first to select my champ and other people pick squishies so I get defaulted to tank status. Still, I'd rather have Warmogs than Sunfire.
Shen is an interesting exception (actually every tank has their own exceptions and tweaks to the general health/mitigation formula) in that he has built in forms of mitigation and health regen so that he can pursue health a little earlier than other tanks.
edit: yeah, Fellhand, if you forfeit Warmog's from your build you have to become very comfortable going into teamfights at 75% or lower HP. Just have faith in your mitigation + passive mang, I've survived plenty of encounters where people have been wailing on me at less than 1/3hp, sustained completely by my constantly-refreshing passive + FoN regen. People are incredibly loathe to waste a CC on you (but they often have to, to stop you from gibbing their carry), so you can properly time your spells to always have your shield up. Because of this, AP really really helps for keeping your shield up, which is why I am all for AP items as well.
Eddy on
"and the morning stars I have seen
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Shen is an interesting exception (actually every tank has their own exceptions and tweaks to the general health/mitigation formula) in that he has built in forms of mitigation and health regen so that he can pursue health a little earlier than other tanks.
And his damage scaling is also based upon his HP. You want to stack HP more on Shen than most other tanks to be threatening.
Every so often I decide to stray from my normal champ (Tristana) and try my hand at jungling with Warwick. I've read some guides to get the gist of it, but they're all so over the place that I'm not sure what's right and what's wrong. Some say I should use ArP runes and others MgP. I've tried both and I didn't really see much difference.
Jungling is hella fun but I know I could be doing much better. How should I have my masteries set? I know to start with cloth armor and build it into a razor's asap, but that's about it. How do I wtfpwn noobs? It seems that when I use duress, people are still able to get away. I need to remedy that so my ganking is much more effective.
I can't say much about jungling with Warwick in particular but I can safely say that you'll want armor penetration marks over magic penetration, as most monsters in the jungle have negative magic resist and pretty much all of them have armor.
Slicer on
0
CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
I usually build him tanky after I get a bloodrazor, the bloodrazor is pretty important if you want to do damage with Infinite Duress but sometimes you can get by turning madred's into wriggle's, also with a bloodrazor he doesn't need a lot in the way of AD due to Hunter's Call giving him a ton of AS on command
I think AS reds are supposed to be pretty good for him, masteries I tend to go 0/21/9 or 0/9/21, neutral mastery needs at least 1 point in either setup
CorporateLogo on
Do not have a cow, mortal.
0
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
Well, I mean, the only reason to take Cho is to be fat and have a max cdr Silence to screw the entire enemy team
If you can't hit with that and you can't hit with Ruptures even in a team fight
Don't play Cho
i can hit wit the ruptures once the fight is engaged - they're esp good to stretch a little more out of someone's bind or stun or slow. i just can't snipe someone who's not already engaged with them after the laning phase. they are worthless for initiation because no one is dumb enough to stand still before a team-fight.
but in the team-fight proper, neither ability is on a low enough CD and the AP scaled badly enough that cho feels kind of worthless outside of the utility of a very short silence and a pop.
so basically what i'm saying is that it doesn't seem worth it to spec Cho as AP, and maybe DPS would make him more worthwhile.
At max cdr, a 3 second silence on a 7.8 second cooldown and a knockup and 3 second slow on a 5.4 second cooldown are not short.
A 3 second silence is long enough to say "no, fuck you Kassadin, you don't get to blink out".
For ganking communicate with your lanes and try to get them to let the enemy push (hard to do in solo queue). It's often easier to gank bottom then it is top because you can put them in an instant 3v2 vs a 2v2 where Warwick can get focused and killed sometimes. However the 1v2 lane will sometimes need help if they're facing a tough duo.
It's really hard to gank before level six with WW, but really easy afterward if your laners are paying attention and not always pushing the tower for no reason. Take Smite, always. You can get through the jungle just fine without it, but you will be so slow you'll be underleveled and useless.
Don't live in the jungle. You should be looking to gank at every opportunity especially after you get red buff. Oh and don't turn on your speed buff until after you've initiated. So many Warwicks are dumb and give themselves away with that stupid thing.
Regarding silence: Feral scream is a tactical ability. Not an AE nuke, and not something to just hit as many people as possible with as soon as a fight starts. You should be using scream to either: Save a bitch, or kill a bitch.
If you silence three people at the beginning of a teamfight, but all three of them are alive by the end of your silence, you just did effectively nothing asides from extend their cooldowns by 3 seconds. If the opposing team has a must-interrupt channel, then that's explicitly what scream is for. If the opposing team has a zilean, you want to watch the fight, and silence zilean once the first member of their team hits ~50%, this will almost always prevent chronoshift, which will usually end the fight. If you see someone going for a wall and it looks suspiciously like they're about to flash over it, get there and silence early.
RUPTURE:
Yes, rupture is hard to hit with. It's fucking slow, it has two graphical giveaways. But there are plenty of subtleties that make it harder to dodge:
Know rupture's arm time, and how far you have to lead a running person. This is hard, because the lead time depends on the target's speed. It's basically the first skill you need to hone to play cho.
The graphic is obvious on open ground, but it is invisible if you throw it from a bush, keep that in mind for laning. Additionally, rupturing underneath creeps is also quite difficult to see, so in the 5 man tower poke-offs, wait for a wave of creeps to begin passing by, then try to land a rupture. Finally, crossfire is your friend! Assuming you have another skillshot poker, stay on opposite sides of the lane, this will force the opposing team to split their focus, making it much easier to sneak skillshots in.
This should be obvious, but the art of leading shots is the most important thing. It's almost always useless to target where enemy champions are currently at, but you can hit some surprising shots by targeting in their general area. Most people don't actually dodge, they're just always juking in random directions, and the one place they won't be is where they're currently at.
Ryokaze on
0
CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
Cho's silence really screws up a lot of champs, WW is a good example
CorporateLogo on
Do not have a cow, mortal.
0
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
The problem with Cho's Rupture is that if the person sees it and is paying attention, no amount of leading will make it land. You can pretty much always run out of it so long as you aren't already slowed by something else.
Where leading comes into play is during chases. You have to know one thing: If I rupture at max range, will it hit the running champion? If you throw it when it will not hit, then the chase is over. If you wait for your target to go around a corner, you can use the turning time to get some additional lead.
In those situations, the runner either takes the rupture, or has to change to an undesirable path, which should allow anybody else that's chasing to catch up. In either case, you accomplish your goal.
EDIT: To put it in simpler terms. Zone control can be just as critical as actually landing rupture. Abuse it.
Every so often I decide to stray from my normal champ (Tristana) and try my hand at jungling with Warwick. I've read some guides to get the gist of it, but they're all so over the place that I'm not sure what's right and what's wrong. Some say I should use ArP runes and others MgP. I've tried both and I didn't really see much difference.
Jungling is hella fun but I know I could be doing much better. How should I have my masteries set? I know to start with cloth armor and build it into a razor's asap, but that's about it. How do I wtfpwn noobs? It seems that when I use duress, people are still able to get away. I need to remedy that so my ganking is much more effective.
Tips, plx.
For runes, Warwick is one of those champs where it doesn't really matter much how you rune when you jungle. I have all tier 3 attack speed glyphs, marks, and seals with 3 Halloween dodge quints and I jungle just fine. I set up my masteries as 21/0/9 or 20/0/10. I leave out crit since after Madred's Bloodrazor I build Warwick as a tank.
Not sure what to say about not owning people, I generally trash most players while using Warwick. One thing you need to make sure you do is gank the lanes, look for a squishy with low health and Infinite Duress that ass while making sure you have at least the lizard buff so they can't escape you.
My general build looks like this:
Cloth Armor x5 health pots
Madred's Bloodclaw/Boots x2 health pots
Boots/Madred's Bloodclaw
Madred's Bloodrazor
Tier 2 boots (personal choice)
Spirit Visage
Guardian Angel
Possibly a Warmog/Frozen Mallet
Force of Nature/Thornmail/Sunfire Cape/Banshee Veil
Basically after Guardian Angel you make what ever benefits you the most. If they are heavy on casters then obviously you will focus more on build MR over Armor. The Warmog and Frozen Mallet are a personal choice if you want a lot more health, but that leaves 1 spot left open more mitigation. If you do want them you gotta decide which and if you pick the Mallet you will want to build it before Spirit Visage which means build GA before Spirit Visage and then build the Mallet, its crazy useful.
This build leads to owning for me, I do it any time I play Warwick so it works well for me but what works for me might not work for you. If you want a more DPS build then go straight 21/0/9, generic damage dealer build, you will want to get Madred's Claw, but rush Frozen Mallet before Bloodrazor, after the Mallet make the Bloodrazor, then grab a Bloodthirster, GA, Phantom Dancer/Black Cleaver, which ever you feel is more beneficial and just pound the shit out of their team. You'll be a lot squishier but you will deal a ton of damage and make them fear you. This is how I used to build Warwick and it worked pretty well.
Stragint on
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Every so often I decide to stray from my normal champ (Tristana) and try my hand at jungling with Warwick. I've read some guides to get the gist of it, but they're all so over the place that I'm not sure what's right and what's wrong. Some say I should use ArP runes and others MgP. I've tried both and I didn't really see much difference.
Jungling is hella fun but I know I could be doing much better. How should I have my masteries set? I know to start with cloth armor and build it into a razor's asap, but that's about it. How do I wtfpwn noobs? It seems that when I use duress, people are still able to get away. I need to remedy that so my ganking is much more effective.
Blue--wolves---wraiths---lizard--golems---dragon. All in one go.
Edit: Yell at your team for doing ANYTHING fucking retarded before you get dragon. Like, seriously, go, "Hey,guys, don't do anything stupid for 5 minutes FIVE MINUTES!"
Nothing is more frustrating as warwick than not being able to get your dragon as soon as possible.
Posts
Everyone shutup. We're not going to start theorycrafting this again. Just get health, then get armor, then don't die and kill someone.
I think Paradox did a lot of theory math on the best health and resistance ratios. I think somewhere around 2500-3000hp then resistances are way better.
But I could be wrong here, I often am.
Also AFAIK it's not as simple as "at X HP you should always just stack more resists". It's more like "at X HP and less than Y armor/MR then resists are better". There's a proper balance in other words which is what I'm seeking. If there's a formula hanging around I'd love to have it.
You are quite right sir. I apologize for being short, it's just one that's been discussed before.
Also, see every post by Mooman and Zen for how normal such a post actually is here...:?
What? No. Tryndamere is awesome right now. He just has a high skill cap.
Formula
If Current Health > 1200 + 12*(Armour+MR)/2, buy Armour and MR. Else, buy more Health.
Values Used
Health: 2.6g/pt
Armor: 15.6g/pt
MR: 15.4g/pt
Total cost for 1% increase: 31g
Conclusion
If your current health is greater than 1200 + 12*Per, where Per is the average between your Armour and MR, then buy more Armour and MR.
Current Health > 1200 + 12*(Armour+MR)/2
or if you rather:
Current Health > 12 * (100+(Armour+MR)/2)
more precise would be:
Current Health > 31/2.6 * (100+(Armour+MR)/2)
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
I'm $5 short of a single legendary skin, but I already have a "legendary" skin for Singed (thanks, Lunysgwen!), so I'm not in any rush. Corporate Mundo is my go-to in this case, though.
Humorously enough, I bought a year upfront from my current mobile provider and have barely put a dent into it. Can't wait until the year expires!
Edit: So it appears to be as I thought, I need a little more HP to break even if I'm exceeding 150 armor/MR and my HP is only around 2500-2800 as frequently happens to me lategame. I'll be tankier if I adjust my build to either of the above rather than the relatively HP-starved Aegis/Randuin's/FoN build which adds only 570 HP.
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
That's usually all you'll need
But it's hard to say
Is he in the bushes?
Is he MIA?
in other news, i played some jungle fiddles last night. wicked fun. better than before.
WTB one more bounce on dark wind.
Mitigation is king, but I only recently dropped Warmogs from my Morde build. Before I dropped Warmogs, it felt like a lot of games I would just not have enough HP or enough recovery if I didn't build it. That might be because when I pick Morde I'm always the first to select my champ and other people pick squishies so I get defaulted to tank status. Still, I'd rather have Warmogs than Sunfire.
edit: yeah, Fellhand, if you forfeit Warmog's from your build you have to become very comfortable going into teamfights at 75% or lower HP. Just have faith in your mitigation + passive mang, I've survived plenty of encounters where people have been wailing on me at less than 1/3hp, sustained completely by my constantly-refreshing passive + FoN regen. People are incredibly loathe to waste a CC on you (but they often have to, to stop you from gibbing their carry), so you can properly time your spells to always have your shield up. Because of this, AP really really helps for keeping your shield up, which is why I am all for AP items as well.
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
This.
One's retired and just casting insults from the sidelines, the other's a one-term flash in the pan
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
And his damage scaling is also based upon his HP. You want to stack HP more on Shen than most other tanks to be threatening.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
DON'T PUSH YOUR SPACEMAN-CARE ON ME
You need to rely on your team for the first 6 levels and after that lol mundo goes where he pleases.
Sometimes I add Spirit Visage to that as well, but usually only if I am tanking against teams with poisoners like Twitch or Teemo.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
Jungling is hella fun but I know I could be doing much better. How should I have my masteries set? I know to start with cloth armor and build it into a razor's asap, but that's about it. How do I wtfpwn noobs? It seems that when I use duress, people are still able to get away. I need to remedy that so my ganking is much more effective.
Tips, plx.
I think AS reds are supposed to be pretty good for him, masteries I tend to go 0/21/9 or 0/9/21, neutral mastery needs at least 1 point in either setup
A 3 second silence is long enough to say "no, fuck you Kassadin, you don't get to blink out".
It's really hard to gank before level six with WW, but really easy afterward if your laners are paying attention and not always pushing the tower for no reason. Take Smite, always. You can get through the jungle just fine without it, but you will be so slow you'll be underleveled and useless.
Don't live in the jungle. You should be looking to gank at every opportunity especially after you get red buff. Oh and don't turn on your speed buff until after you've initiated. So many Warwicks are dumb and give themselves away with that stupid thing.
Regarding silence: Feral scream is a tactical ability. Not an AE nuke, and not something to just hit as many people as possible with as soon as a fight starts. You should be using scream to either: Save a bitch, or kill a bitch.
If you silence three people at the beginning of a teamfight, but all three of them are alive by the end of your silence, you just did effectively nothing asides from extend their cooldowns by 3 seconds. If the opposing team has a must-interrupt channel, then that's explicitly what scream is for. If the opposing team has a zilean, you want to watch the fight, and silence zilean once the first member of their team hits ~50%, this will almost always prevent chronoshift, which will usually end the fight. If you see someone going for a wall and it looks suspiciously like they're about to flash over it, get there and silence early.
RUPTURE:
Yes, rupture is hard to hit with. It's fucking slow, it has two graphical giveaways. But there are plenty of subtleties that make it harder to dodge:
Know rupture's arm time, and how far you have to lead a running person. This is hard, because the lead time depends on the target's speed. It's basically the first skill you need to hone to play cho.
The graphic is obvious on open ground, but it is invisible if you throw it from a bush, keep that in mind for laning. Additionally, rupturing underneath creeps is also quite difficult to see, so in the 5 man tower poke-offs, wait for a wave of creeps to begin passing by, then try to land a rupture. Finally, crossfire is your friend! Assuming you have another skillshot poker, stay on opposite sides of the lane, this will force the opposing team to split their focus, making it much easier to sneak skillshots in.
This should be obvious, but the art of leading shots is the most important thing. It's almost always useless to target where enemy champions are currently at, but you can hit some surprising shots by targeting in their general area. Most people don't actually dodge, they're just always juking in random directions, and the one place they won't be is where they're currently at.
In those situations, the runner either takes the rupture, or has to change to an undesirable path, which should allow anybody else that's chasing to catch up. In either case, you accomplish your goal.
EDIT: To put it in simpler terms. Zone control can be just as critical as actually landing rupture. Abuse it.
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
What is this?
Is this a thing now?
Like, I mean, Mooman totally more like Jimmy Carter.
Totes Carter.
For runes, Warwick is one of those champs where it doesn't really matter much how you rune when you jungle. I have all tier 3 attack speed glyphs, marks, and seals with 3 Halloween dodge quints and I jungle just fine. I set up my masteries as 21/0/9 or 20/0/10. I leave out crit since after Madred's Bloodrazor I build Warwick as a tank.
Not sure what to say about not owning people, I generally trash most players while using Warwick. One thing you need to make sure you do is gank the lanes, look for a squishy with low health and Infinite Duress that ass while making sure you have at least the lizard buff so they can't escape you.
My general build looks like this:
Cloth Armor x5 health pots
Madred's Bloodclaw/Boots x2 health pots
Boots/Madred's Bloodclaw
Madred's Bloodrazor
Tier 2 boots (personal choice)
Spirit Visage
Guardian Angel
Possibly a Warmog/Frozen Mallet
Force of Nature/Thornmail/Sunfire Cape/Banshee Veil
Basically after Guardian Angel you make what ever benefits you the most. If they are heavy on casters then obviously you will focus more on build MR over Armor. The Warmog and Frozen Mallet are a personal choice if you want a lot more health, but that leaves 1 spot left open more mitigation. If you do want them you gotta decide which and if you pick the Mallet you will want to build it before Spirit Visage which means build GA before Spirit Visage and then build the Mallet, its crazy useful.
This build leads to owning for me, I do it any time I play Warwick so it works well for me but what works for me might not work for you. If you want a more DPS build then go straight 21/0/9, generic damage dealer build, you will want to get Madred's Claw, but rush Frozen Mallet before Bloodrazor, after the Mallet make the Bloodrazor, then grab a Bloodthirster, GA, Phantom Dancer/Black Cleaver, which ever you feel is more beneficial and just pound the shit out of their team. You'll be a lot squishier but you will deal a ton of damage and make them fear you. This is how I used to build Warwick and it worked pretty well.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Jungling with warwick:
20/0/10
Runes:
5 Arpen marks, 4 magpen, flat armor yellows, scaling MR blues, flat health quints.
1 cloth armor 3 health pots.
Blue--wolves---wraiths---lizard--golems---dragon. All in one go.
Edit: Yell at your team for doing ANYTHING fucking retarded before you get dragon. Like, seriously, go, "Hey,guys, don't do anything stupid for 5 minutes FIVE MINUTES!"
Nothing is more frustrating as warwick than not being able to get your dragon as soon as possible.
e: the extra 15% neutral buff duration??
Yeah, that's what it is, otherwise my blue is gone before I get dragon.
I like getting my dragon and still having my buffs.
I mean, yeah, 5% damage is cool, but, so is longer buffs.
Fuck ya'll I like my buffs.
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin