Dac VinS-s-screw you! I only listen to DOUBLE MUSIC!Registered Userregular
edited November 2010
The Best Feeling Number 0345: Declaring that the autolocking first pick Tryndamere is gonna feed like fuck, being proven right, and then ensuring it doesn't matter in the long run by last picking Twitch and being an absolute terror among the elo of people without oracles and thornmails.
A terrortastic Kog'Maw was involved too. We also had a cool beans Shen and Sion.
Also yelling *DING* in all chat every time Tryn died.
The thing is, if you think of TF as a pure midgame assassin/ganker, yes, AP can work for that and that's probably the easiest way to play him. However, there are better champions out there in the same role. For instance, Pantheon. Pantheon crushes TF's early game, and his midgame is still very strong with similar mobility due to man drop.
Where TF shines is that
a) He can actually carry for a team late game as AD, although it requires impeccable positioning and fantastic micromanagement of PaC
b) As I said before, he's the best backdoor champ in the game. This requires being built as AD as well.
If you're just playing him as a ganker you're really sapping him of what sets him apart from other champions and you're not going to be the best champion for that role.
I disagree.
You state that there are better gankers than AP TF. Well there are many more viable AD carries than AD/Hybrid TF. TF's attack range is way too short; 10 range further than Teemo. There are also much better pushing champions.
For Global Ganking, TF's only competitor is Pantheon. Gate is much more accurate than Skyfall. Not to mention Gate gives visibility for jungle ganking and counter-stealth. They're both good. However, TF is generally safer since Gate scouts every enemy champion and Aegis puts Pantheon in melee range as well as Heartseeker Strike keeping Pantheon in place.
He may be the best back door champion in the game as AD, but with impeccable timing TF can successfully backdoor as AP as well.
The main reason I prefer AP TF to AD TF is that though AD TF is better late game, TF is a relatively terrible late game champion and AD TF is pretty pathetic early/mid game. AP TF's strongest phase is the mid game with a rather lackluster late. I'd rather be a decent mage ganker that transitions into support than be a support AD champion all game and only manage to kill mages/support endgame since AD TF can barely touch tanks or other carries without being fed.
Twisted Fate generally make a bigger impact on the game as AP.
TF is a mediocre champion in general. Many champions can fulfill either AP or AD TF's role better but the Global Reveal and Teleport gives TF a unique advantage. To best use this advantage, in my opinion, is to punish people who overcommit or are underprepared. Late game most teams stick together in groups of 5, so by being strong only late game as AD TF, I feel you're really sapping him of what sets him apart from other champions.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
The thing is, if you think of TF as a pure midgame assassin/ganker, yes, AP can work for that and that's probably the easiest way to play him. However, there are better champions out there in the same role. For instance, Pantheon. Pantheon crushes TF's early game, and his midgame is still very strong with similar mobility due to man drop.
Where TF shines is that
a) He can actually carry for a team late game as AD, although it requires impeccable positioning and fantastic micromanagement of PaC
b) As I said before, he's the best backdoor champ in the game. This requires being built as AD as well.
If you're just playing him as a ganker you're really sapping him of what sets him apart from other champions and you're not going to be the best champion for that role.
err, TF doesn't need to go AD to carry; he just is a magic damage dealing carry. His passive autoattack ability scales with AP and AS, so build a Madred's Bloodrazor on him and then AP/AS items and he's perfectly usable as a carry as well as making his wild cards actually threatening. There's no real reason to build him AD unless your team has nothing but magic damage, in which case you should have picked a proper physical carry.
and building him AD purely because it makes him a somewhat better backdoorer is pretty silly.
I..I don't know if you're just horrible with pick a card or what but AD/AS TF can hold up damage wise with the best of the them and has the most spammable slow/stun in the game when you get good with it. His slightly shorter range doesn't matter much when you can keep people at the edge of your attack range with a constant barrage of gold card stuns one on one or AOE slows.
his horrible AP ratios for everything make AP pretty laughable when you can keep guys at the perfect distance and kill them with AD so easily
eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
edited November 2010
AD TF will never hold a candle to Ashe, Tristana, Corki, or Kog'Maw.
In the current patch.
Since my last post got bottom of the page'd.
The main reason I prefer AP TF to AD TF is that though AD TF is better late game, TF is a relatively terrible late game champion and AD TF is pretty pathetic early/mid game. AP TF's strongest phase is the mid game with a rather lackluster late. I'd rather be a decent mage ganker that transitions into support than be a support AD champion all game and only manage to kill mages/support endgame since AD TF can barely touch tanks or other carries without being fed.
TF is a mediocre champion in general. Many champions can fulfill either AP or AD TF's role better but the Global Reveal and Teleport gives TF a unique advantage. To best use this advantage, in my opinion, is to punish people who overcommit or are underprepared. Late game most teams stick together in groups of 5, so by being strong only late game as AD TF, I feel "you're really sapping him of what sets him apart from other champions."
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Interesting. I'm surprised no Recurve or anything, but I guess the zerker's makes up for it.
Although how you got away with zerker's on Ashe is beyond me. She's so freaking slow even with Speed 3.
i go boots of swiftness with panth but yeah i've always gone greaves with ashe. it's cheaper, it avoids me filling a spot with stinger, and i never feel like i have to move tooooo rapidly with long distance range like hers
i usually go something like
doran's blade / health pot
long sword / long sword / boots
dagger / greaves / brutalizer
then from there i go for black cleaver then blood thirster
if i'm not doing amazing (re: i prolly won't hit IE) i'll go stinger at that point, and/or rush brutalizer to ghostblade
Organichu on
0
SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
I'm starting to get sick of all the Corki, if only because of his ability to screw your wards, but I console myself that every time with him probably doesn't also have a Kennen.
AD TF will never hold a candle to Ashe, Tristana, Corki, or Kog'Maw.
Since my last post got bottom of the page'd.
The main reason I prefer AP TF to AD TF is that though AD TF is better late game, TF is a relatively terrible late game champion and AD TF is pretty pathetic early/mid game. AP TF's strongest phase is the mid game with a rather lackluster late. I'd rather be a decent mage ganker that transitions into support than be a support AD champion all game and only manage to kill mages/support endgame since AD TF can barely touch tanks or other carries without being fed.
TF is a mediocre champion in general. Many champions can fulfill either AP or AD TF's role better but the Global Reveal and Teleport gives TF a unique advantage. To best use this advantage, in my opinion, is to punish people who overcommit or are underprepared. Late game most teams stick together in groups of 5, so by being strong only late game as AD TF, I feel you're really sapping him of what sets him apart from other champions.
o_O Corki or Kog'Maw in a straight up fight i'll give you, but his DPS potential blows ashe away. Ashe is afaik the lowest DPS AD champ in the game, she's got volley for damage aaaand...volley. i'd have put him above corki too until his last buff, but he's beastly now.
AD TF will never hold a candle to Ashe, Tristana, Corki, or Kog'Maw.
Since my last post got bottom of the page'd.
The main reason I prefer AP TF to AD TF is that though AD TF is better late game, TF is a relatively terrible late game champion and AD TF is pretty pathetic early/mid game. AP TF's strongest phase is the mid game with a rather lackluster late. I'd rather be a decent mage ganker that transitions into support than be a support AD champion all game and only manage to kill mages/support endgame since AD TF can barely touch tanks or other carries without being fed.
TF is a mediocre champion in general. Many champions can fulfill either AP or AD TF's role better but the Global Reveal and Teleport gives TF a unique advantage. To best use this advantage, in my opinion, is to punish people who overcommit or are underprepared. Late game most teams stick together in groups of 5, so by being strong only late game as AD TF, I feel you're really sapping him of what sets him apart from other champions.
o_O Corki or Kog'Maw in a straight up fight i'll give you, but his DPS potential blows ashe away. Ashe is afaik the lowest DPS AD champ in the game, she's got volley for damage aaaand...volley. i'd have put him above corki too until his last buff, but he's beastly now.
Yes. But Ashe has amazing range and great kiting ability. TF has terrible range and decent kiting ability.
Standing literally face to face, AD TF will beat Ashe. Getting there without Gate is the problem.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
I simply don't see the sense in building him AD. None of his abilities scale with AD, while all (except Destiny, obviously) scale with AP. Really, he's more AS than anything. Build items that scale with that as well, like Bloodrazor, along with pure AS -- AP is more of an afterthought.
But building AD on him is like building it on Zilean, almost.
AD TF will never hold a candle to Ashe, Tristana, Corki, or Kog'Maw.
Since my last post got bottom of the page'd.
The main reason I prefer AP TF to AD TF is that though AD TF is better late game, TF is a relatively terrible late game champion and AD TF is pretty pathetic early/mid game. AP TF's strongest phase is the mid game with a rather lackluster late. I'd rather be a decent mage ganker that transitions into support than be a support AD champion all game and only manage to kill mages/support endgame since AD TF can barely touch tanks or other carries without being fed.
TF is a mediocre champion in general. Many champions can fulfill either AP or AD TF's role better but the Global Reveal and Teleport gives TF a unique advantage. To best use this advantage, in my opinion, is to punish people who overcommit or are underprepared. Late game most teams stick together in groups of 5, so by being strong only late game as AD TF, I feel you're really sapping him of what sets him apart from other champions.
o_O Corki or Kog'Maw in a straight up fight i'll give you, but his DPS potential blows ashe away. Ashe is afaik the lowest DPS AD champ in the game, she's got volley for damage aaaand...volley. i'd have put him above corki too until his last buff, but he's beastly now.
Yes. But Ashe has amazing range and great kiting ability. TF has terrible range and decent kiting ability.
Standing literally face to face, AD TF will beat Ashe. Getting there without Gate is the problem.
The best part of playing Ashe against TF is, if you're built right, he'll gate, and then you'll run juuuuuuust to the edge of your range before he shows up out of it.
Yes. But Ashe has amazing range and great kiting ability. TF has terrible range and decent kiting ability.
Standing literally face to face, AD TF will beat Ashe. Getting there without Gate is the problem.
but how often do an ashe and a tf run into each other alone in a forest? This games about who brings more to teamfights and AD TF has more auto attack damage, and he can choose between good AOE damage or stunning a stunning a specific character every 4(?) seconds, whereas ashe has lower aoe damage +a s low every 4(?) seconds and a stun every 30(?) seconds. I'm not 100% sure on the cooldowns but I think they're pretty close.
edit:dkarrde- red now scales with attack damage in additon to AP, and it's 1:1 per AD and only 0.4 per AP. So it's easier to build it up AD wise. Likewise his E only has a 0.4 AP ratio so sure, getting AP raises it's damage but you get more damage for cheaper building AD. So 1 of his 4 skills is better served by AD, 1 (wild cards) by AP and stacked deck is meh and you're better off building ad then worrying about it.
Really since stacked deck also increases attack speed i'd say it's better served by AD too since you'll do more damage total stacking AD then AP, and doing that extra damage every attack instead of every 4. So thats 2 for AD and 1 for AP
Wasn't aware of the Red Card change, but regardless, I still think he should be built AS. AD/AP is kind of a misdirection when you can build something like Madred's Bloodrazor and then go pure speed to work with that and his passive.
Dkarrde on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
Yes. But Ashe has amazing range and great kiting ability. TF has terrible range and decent kiting ability.
Standing literally face to face, AD TF will beat Ashe. Getting there without Gate is the problem.
but how often do an ashe and a tf run into each other alone in a forest? This games about who brings more to teamfights and AD TF has more auto attack damage, and he can choose between good AOE damage or stunning a stunning a specific character every 4(?) seconds, whereas ashe has lower aoe damage +a s low every 4(?) seconds and a stun every 30(?) seconds. I'm not 100% sure on the cooldowns but I think they're pretty close
Ashe has decent AoE damage; at least better than TF's Red Card.
Team fights is where range is even more important. It's much easier for the opposing team to kill an AD TF than it is to kill Ashe. Gate is a bad escape mechanism if you're already getting hit since you need to cast it twice and one of those casts is a channel. Imagine if Twitch had TF's attack range even with Spray and Pray; range is that important.
AP TF has good poking because of Wild Card's great range and though AP is much worse than AD in the late game for TF, AP can ride the midgame advantage to remain a competitive support.
eeSanG on
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Interesting. I'm surprised no Recurve or anything, but I guess the zerker's makes up for it.
Although how you got away with zerker's on Ashe is beyond me. She's so freaking slow even with Speed 3.
i go boots of swiftness with panth but yeah i've always gone greaves with ashe. it's cheaper, it avoids me filling a spot with stinger, and i never feel like i have to move tooooo rapidly with long distance range like hers
Her range is okay, but only really with Volley. Her autoattack range sometimes leaves something to be desired and if you don't have speed 3, you can be run down so easily.
God forbid their team has any good dashers because you will get exploded. IME zerker's is only a choice if you really really really trust your team to screen for you.
The point is that Ashe can out-range TF with her auto attack. Sure, with a good caster or blah blah blah someone can get exploded. But that's true of anyone.
When it comes to team fights, I'd say Ashe wins because she can stay farther away from the action.
i remember when he used to be the ridonkulousness and i'd carry all the time as him but then they started nerfing and remaking and shit and now hes just meh
nealcm on
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Dac VinS-s-screw you! I only listen to DOUBLE MUSIC!Registered Userregular
I really think TF is a super specialized champion now. That's why I gave the advice I did. I just don't see the purpose of picking him over another ranged carry outside of pushing/backdooring. But he can be supremely effective in that role, as demonstrated in WCG.
OremLK on
My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
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SpectrumArcher of InfernoChaldea Rec RoomRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
I actually really like TF on the team, but that's because my usual comrades like to play a map control game and he is so, so good at that.
When you have a Shen and a TF, you do not fear walking around solo to do stupid shit in the enemy's jungle or overpushing a lane. And if you have anyone else with Teleport, you really don't fear it.
Man, this is the first time I think ever that I'm actually somewhat excited for a new champ. Maybe I just want to play a melee carry and none appeal to me other than master yi....who I play like once a month, so hopefully Irelia is pretty boss. And if the Ryze buffs/reworks are in the this patch too, well, i just don't know what I would do!
o, and release champion Ryze plx.
Minerva_SC on
"If a cherry pie filled cape is wrong, I don't want to be right.
I'm dead serious."
as a squishy/high-priority target olaf is one of the most terrifying champs in the game
nothing makes me go OH SHIIIIT like seeing him come tearing out of the jungle in a teamfight with red buff and ragnarok active
Our team earlier was having problems with Olaf, so we're all like "Let's focus him!" and that didn't work, he just can't die with Ragnarok up. Not focusing him led to some dead dudes. I think the best way is to trick him into popping his ult early, and then smashing him after. So maybe kill him second?
as a squishy/high-priority target olaf is one of the most terrifying champs in the game
nothing makes me go OH SHIIIIT like seeing him come tearing out of the jungle in a teamfight with red buff and ragnarok active
Our team earlier was having problems with Olaf, so we're all like "Let's focus him!" and that didn't work, he just can't die with Ragnarok up. Not focusing him led to some dead dudes. I think the best way is to trick him into popping his ult early, and then smashing him after. So maybe kill him second?
Olaf is either the guy you kill first or the guy you kill last (depending on feed level). Once Olaf gets enough AS that he doesn't have to be at low health to smash faces, then he needs to die first because otherwise he will run through your team and start killing people. You better have an Ignite for him or someone might have to fork out for an Executioner's Calling if you want him down in a timely fashion.
Smart Olafs will start thinking about GA at this point and/or delay their entry to the battle slightly. God forbird you let Olaf flank you as a team fight is starting, because he will tear your ass a new one.
That's assuming a pitched battle. The *real* way to kill Olaf is to bait Ragnarok with some CC and then *run away*. Come back in 20 seconds later and then kill him first. Olaf hates teams with Janna and Sona and map control teams in general, because they should never fight at a disadvantage and mean that Olaf can't stay in melee range with someone he wants to feast on.
On the flipside, Olaf likes a team with at least one other super dangerous person on the team so that even if he is focused first, someone else is killing the enemy team. He also likes slows or ranged stuns to let him get into pain range.
Posts
A terrortastic Kog'Maw was involved too. We also had a cool beans Shen and Sion.
Also yelling *DING* in all chat every time Tryn died.
Although how you got away with zerker's on Ashe is beyond me. She's so freaking slow even with Speed 3.
I disagree.
You state that there are better gankers than AP TF. Well there are many more viable AD carries than AD/Hybrid TF. TF's attack range is way too short; 10 range further than Teemo. There are also much better pushing champions.
For Global Ganking, TF's only competitor is Pantheon. Gate is much more accurate than Skyfall. Not to mention Gate gives visibility for jungle ganking and counter-stealth. They're both good. However, TF is generally safer since Gate scouts every enemy champion and Aegis puts Pantheon in melee range as well as Heartseeker Strike keeping Pantheon in place.
He may be the best back door champion in the game as AD, but with impeccable timing TF can successfully backdoor as AP as well.
The main reason I prefer AP TF to AD TF is that though AD TF is better late game, TF is a relatively terrible late game champion and AD TF is pretty pathetic early/mid game. AP TF's strongest phase is the mid game with a rather lackluster late. I'd rather be a decent mage ganker that transitions into support than be a support AD champion all game and only manage to kill mages/support endgame since AD TF can barely touch tanks or other carries without being fed.
Twisted Fate generally make a bigger impact on the game as AP.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
err, TF doesn't need to go AD to carry; he just is a magic damage dealing carry. His passive autoattack ability scales with AP and AS, so build a Madred's Bloodrazor on him and then AP/AS items and he's perfectly usable as a carry as well as making his wild cards actually threatening. There's no real reason to build him AD unless your team has nothing but magic damage, in which case you should have picked a proper physical carry.
and building him AD purely because it makes him a somewhat better backdoorer is pretty silly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdloDcg2yWI
his horrible AP ratios for everything make AP pretty laughable when you can keep guys at the perfect distance and kill them with AD so easily
Since my last post got bottom of the page'd.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
i go boots of swiftness with panth but yeah i've always gone greaves with ashe. it's cheaper, it avoids me filling a spot with stinger, and i never feel like i have to move tooooo rapidly with long distance range like hers
i usually go something like
doran's blade / health pot
long sword / long sword / boots
dagger / greaves / brutalizer
then from there i go for black cleaver then blood thirster
so i'm
-doran's blade
-brutalizer
-black cleaver
-blood thirster
if i'm not doing amazing (re: i prolly won't hit IE) i'll go stinger at that point, and/or rush brutalizer to ghostblade
o_O Corki or Kog'Maw in a straight up fight i'll give you, but his DPS potential blows ashe away. Ashe is afaik the lowest DPS AD champ in the game, she's got volley for damage aaaand...volley. i'd have put him above corki too until his last buff, but he's beastly now.
Yes. But Ashe has amazing range and great kiting ability. TF has terrible range and decent kiting ability.
Standing literally face to face, AD TF will beat Ashe. Getting there without Gate is the problem.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
But building AD on him is like building it on Zilean, almost.
The best part of playing Ashe against TF is, if you're built right, he'll gate, and then you'll run juuuuuuust to the edge of your range before he shows up out of it.
Then he'll be fucked.
but how often do an ashe and a tf run into each other alone in a forest? This games about who brings more to teamfights and AD TF has more auto attack damage, and he can choose between good AOE damage or stunning a stunning a specific character every 4(?) seconds, whereas ashe has lower aoe damage +a s low every 4(?) seconds and a stun every 30(?) seconds. I'm not 100% sure on the cooldowns but I think they're pretty close.
edit:dkarrde- red now scales with attack damage in additon to AP, and it's 1:1 per AD and only 0.4 per AP. So it's easier to build it up AD wise. Likewise his E only has a 0.4 AP ratio so sure, getting AP raises it's damage but you get more damage for cheaper building AD. So 1 of his 4 skills is better served by AD, 1 (wild cards) by AP and stacked deck is meh and you're better off building ad then worrying about it.
Really since stacked deck also increases attack speed i'd say it's better served by AD too since you'll do more damage total stacking AD then AP, and doing that extra damage every attack instead of every 4. So thats 2 for AD and 1 for AP
Ashe has decent AoE damage; at least better than TF's Red Card.
Team fights is where range is even more important. It's much easier for the opposing team to kill an AD TF than it is to kill Ashe. Gate is a bad escape mechanism if you're already getting hit since you need to cast it twice and one of those casts is a channel. Imagine if Twitch had TF's attack range even with Spray and Pray; range is that important.
AP TF has good poking because of Wild Card's great range and though AP is much worse than AD in the late game for TF, AP can ride the midgame advantage to remain a competitive support.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
God forbid their team has any good dashers because you will get exploded. IME zerker's is only a choice if you really really really trust your team to screen for you.
When it comes to team fights, I'd say Ashe wins because she can stay farther away from the action.
You are bad anyways, scrubmaster.
Totally content post:
I like my IP total.
More content: Yordles erryday.
I'm dead serious."
i remember when he used to be the ridonkulousness and i'd carry all the time as him but then they started nerfing and remaking and shit and now hes just meh
Pick another carry.
When you have a Shen and a TF, you do not fear walking around solo to do stupid shit in the enemy's jungle or overpushing a lane. And if you have anyone else with Teleport, you really don't fear it.
o, and release champion Ryze plx.
I'm dead serious."
nothing makes me go OH SHIIIIT like seeing him come tearing out of the jungle in a teamfight with red buff and ragnarok active
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Our team earlier was having problems with Olaf, so we're all like "Let's focus him!" and that didn't work, he just can't die with Ragnarok up. Not focusing him led to some dead dudes. I think the best way is to trick him into popping his ult early, and then smashing him after. So maybe kill him second?
Smart Olafs will start thinking about GA at this point and/or delay their entry to the battle slightly. God forbird you let Olaf flank you as a team fight is starting, because he will tear your ass a new one.
That's assuming a pitched battle. The *real* way to kill Olaf is to bait Ragnarok with some CC and then *run away*. Come back in 20 seconds later and then kill him first. Olaf hates teams with Janna and Sona and map control teams in general, because they should never fight at a disadvantage and mean that Olaf can't stay in melee range with someone he wants to feast on.
On the flipside, Olaf likes a team with at least one other super dangerous person on the team so that even if he is focused first, someone else is killing the enemy team. He also likes slows or ranged stuns to let him get into pain range.