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"The gaming industry unimaginative, and trivial due to games like BlackOps" says dev
McGee
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Registered User regular
"The gaming industry lacks imagination, and overrun by trivial games like BlackOps" says 6 days in Fallujuha Developer;
Source: http://www.vg247.com/2010/11/15/breach-six-days-in-fallujah-and-the-state-of-the-modern-fps/
I really do hope to see 6 days in Fallajuah be released. It really seems as if it's a game that runs on passion, rather than making a quick buck [*cough* BlackOps *cough*]
Regarding to what he said though. I personally disagree about gaming declining. In the UK, 1 out of every 3 household own a Wii. An over 1 in 3 considered themseleves as gamers. He say's developers aren't creating new ip's, and aren't taking risks. Well first, and foremost that's incorrect. New ip's are being released all the time (Creator of Folklore newest title Majin and the Foresaken Kingdom, Splatterhouse, Epic Mickey, and of course the atv racer Nail'd). But the issue is, the economy is in a position where you can't simply waste $60.00 on a video game. These are tough times, and renting games from Gamefly, or Redbox for a $1 day, is more convenient than simply risk wasting $60 right then, and there.
Also we have to look at the inflated game prices. Before new ip's would set for 30-40 bucks a piece, while the big AAA titles would be set at $50.00. Now, you can't risk spending $60 on a unproven title, that may or may not be worth your money.
Hence the reason why BlackOps goes to sell as much as it does. It's proven, and it has mass appeal. Publishers would rather bank on sequels, and continuation of games like BlackOps, rather than risking a future investment that may, or may not pan out.
Sad, but true. If anything XBLA, and PSN has been a godsend for new creations. Finally, games that would be considered GIGANTIC risks (Alien Homanid people?) for publishers, are now released at ease by independent developers.
Though I do agree with games becoming more, and more trivial. Games are slowly proving that they can be emotionally engaging. Look at ICO, or Bioshock, or Red Dead Redemption. It's sad that people play BlackOps (some, not all) purely for it's multiplayer. Simply to shoot, and kill other things.
I really, and I mean REALLY, want to see games evolve on a cinematic route. I want to see more games like Heavy Rain, Enslaved, Heavenly Sword, Uncharted, Bioshock, LA.Noire. If gamers are to ever be respected, than they need to grow up as well.
What are you're guys thoughts?:?
“My frustration with [the situation] has grown over time, if that’s even possible. The retail sales of videogames in the US have declines in the last two years. That may be partly because of the economy, but it’s also because the games industry has stopped creating anything new, and consumers are starting to say, ‘Hey, what you’re selling – I’m not buying.’ I have conversations with senior people at publishers all across the world, and they’re telling me that videogames are trivial, and we’re going to keep making trivial games. Someone needs to slap them on the side of the head and say, ‘Hey, guys, sales are going down.
Something is wrong.’
“We should experiment with new categories of games. That’s what we wanted to do [with Six Days]. It has to be made into a purely commercial argument, ignoring all the arguments about the importance of the medium, and the things that we can do for consumers that can’t be done via passive forms of entertainment – because most of the publishers are interesting in the economic argument. It should be clear to them that the path we are on right now is taking us downhill. And yet when I have conversations with publishers, I still get the message back – ‘No, we pretty much want to keep doing what we’re doing.’
Source: http://www.vg247.com/2010/11/15/breach-six-days-in-fallujah-and-the-state-of-the-modern-fps/
I really do hope to see 6 days in Fallajuah be released. It really seems as if it's a game that runs on passion, rather than making a quick buck [*cough* BlackOps *cough*]
Regarding to what he said though. I personally disagree about gaming declining. In the UK, 1 out of every 3 household own a Wii. An over 1 in 3 considered themseleves as gamers. He say's developers aren't creating new ip's, and aren't taking risks. Well first, and foremost that's incorrect. New ip's are being released all the time (Creator of Folklore newest title Majin and the Foresaken Kingdom, Splatterhouse, Epic Mickey, and of course the atv racer Nail'd). But the issue is, the economy is in a position where you can't simply waste $60.00 on a video game. These are tough times, and renting games from Gamefly, or Redbox for a $1 day, is more convenient than simply risk wasting $60 right then, and there.
Also we have to look at the inflated game prices. Before new ip's would set for 30-40 bucks a piece, while the big AAA titles would be set at $50.00. Now, you can't risk spending $60 on a unproven title, that may or may not be worth your money.
Hence the reason why BlackOps goes to sell as much as it does. It's proven, and it has mass appeal. Publishers would rather bank on sequels, and continuation of games like BlackOps, rather than risking a future investment that may, or may not pan out.
Sad, but true. If anything XBLA, and PSN has been a godsend for new creations. Finally, games that would be considered GIGANTIC risks (Alien Homanid people?) for publishers, are now released at ease by independent developers.
Though I do agree with games becoming more, and more trivial. Games are slowly proving that they can be emotionally engaging. Look at ICO, or Bioshock, or Red Dead Redemption. It's sad that people play BlackOps (some, not all) purely for it's multiplayer. Simply to shoot, and kill other things.
I really, and I mean REALLY, want to see games evolve on a cinematic route. I want to see more games like Heavy Rain, Enslaved, Heavenly Sword, Uncharted, Bioshock, LA.Noire. If gamers are to ever be respected, than they need to grow up as well.
What are you're guys thoughts?:?
McGee on
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I don't know why you're calling this sad. Some people just aren't looking for a cinematic experience in a game, they just want to play games with their friends. Shooters fill that niche quite nicely.
I think he means, "fails to provide meaningful evolution of the art form."
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Didn't Black Ops have the best opening day out of anything ever released ever?
Coming out tomorrow! Hi5.
A good example of that is Medal of Honour. It isn't a bad game, but it's a trivial game. It does nothing new and does nothing to set itself apart in any way from Call of Duty or the other like minded shooters. There is zero innovation going on in that game. Halo? Their biggest innovation was making the graphics look different.
I haven't bought a new call of duty game since the original Modern Warfare because that game was the best in the series for many reasons, it innovated its multiplayer. I tried Modern Warfare 2, but i felt i'd already been there and done that, but better elsewere, so why buy a worse game for another $60-$70 ($70 is not uncommon in Canada for a game.). As someone said, times are tough, i only buy games no for their content, if its repetitive im not interested. If it's fresh and new and there is a lot of it, its worth my money.
I find myself more and more turning to indie developers on the PC and buying their games. They seem to innovate a lot more and i enjoy the varying and fresh experiences. Games like Global Agenda, Tales of Monkey Island, Mount & Blade.
Brb, gonna go weep.
But they need to be FUN first. Fun and playable.
Killer7 is about the only game I can think of that I enjoyed that was less straight-forward fun than it was creatively engrossing.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
"Meaningful" has no set definition in and off itself. It's a sneaky word that hides underneath it all the assumptions and subjective biases of the person uttering it.
It's just lucky for us that we, as a human species, tend to have a lot in common. But we still do have enough variety that you need to say more than just "meaningful" in a debate like this, or dude x who thinks meaning = y is going to argue to the death with dude a with thinks meaning = b, without either x or a ever actually sitting down and defining "meaning". They'll just assume the other person's conception of meaning is the same. That's why it's a terrible word to use without further qualification. It's like using the mathematical variable "X" in a sentence.
"fails to provide x evoultion of the art form". That's not a helpful sentence. You need to know what x= to make sense of that sentence. So with "meaning".
On the other hand I think a lot of people never develop any taste for the more niche games and just hop from COD to WoW to Madden, and that's a shame.
...and is a black hole for sales of most other games for the holiday season. Last year we saw multiple publishers delay their holiday games just because they didn't want to go up against the holiday juggernaut that MW2 was.
Luckily games are charting through much the same arguments now that film does as a medium, whether or not anybody who supposedly matters recognizes games as a medium capable of supporting expression. We have the massive blockbusters that most people are content with, some mid-tier stuff that catches on with the population at large, and a host of smaller projects with esoteric appeal. If you're lamenting that your great idea isn't able to compete with the big dogs, part of the blame at least is on you for playing on the same field.
Sometimes I want to bitch about small projects being passed up by people with more straightforward tastes and expectations about the media they consume, but at the end of the day, stuff still gets made and I still get to experience it. Sure I'd like to see what some indies could do with a boatload of cash backing them, but a large budget doesn't equal mainstream appeal and honestly would be wasted in many cases.
I don't want video games to be more cinematic. I want them to be more like video games. That doesn't mean extra lives and points - it means invoking everything that a video game can do as a unique product of being a video game. I also think we're getting there, so long as players keep their ear to the ground on new stuff popping up.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
Why? Mainstream gaming is just like the mainstream movie and tv industries: success means duplication means brand-whoring.
But anyone who tells me all three of those industries are bereft of creativity and originality obviously has a very narrow frame of reference.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
Well, sure.
The thing is, though, that the artform is certainly evolving - or, at least, changing slightly. In just the console FPS genre, we have Halo bringing in regenning health and grenade buttons, COD bringing MMO-like progression, and MAG bringing motion controls and large player counts.
But, because he is claiming stagnation of the industry, it is clear that, in his definition, at least, these are trivial changes.
So, we can argue that, in our opinion, meaningful change has or has not occured, but it is clear that the changes which have occured are not meaningful to him.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
That said, the article's generally right in that FPSes, or at least military ones, are pretty stagnant these days. It suggests one fix in Breach/6DIF's destructibility, which certainly sounds pretty damn cool. At the same time, though, that feels like just an engine upgrade. A really neat one if it works as described, mind, but it feels like the formula they're talking about is little more than "Take existing structure; add ability to subtract existing structure; preen."
I have no idea what the solution to that sort of problem should be, or even if there's necessarily a problem in need of solutioning in the first place. I'm a fan of anything that gets story and immersion going, but that seems like a dealbreaker when FPSes are increasingly aimed first and foremost (or entirely) to online play, and anything more specialized or off-genre would probably be seen as commercial suicide by the big studios.
tl;dr alternative in article itself feels "trivial"; I've got general angst about state of genre; not even pretending to have a clue what to do about it.
I'd love to see a crack at a "big, deep, creative" FPS, though I also fully get how ridiculously difficult that probably is to do well. I'm not sure what's out there these days along those lines, though I found Deus Ex and the first two Thief games felt like they were in the neighborhood.
System Shock 2 is really my go-to example there.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
If you have steam, the Indie section is a good place to start.
On the other hand, his criticism of 'trivial' titles sticks pretty strongly. Almost any time you're making a product merely to replace the product you had in that rack last month, it's showing a lack of respect to the customer. It's not like we're selling ketchup here.
Stop. AAA titles are not all "grey brown." I fucking hate when people say that.
Edit: Also, there's lots of dirt in the world. What color is it?
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
While many, many people may only buy it for the multiplayer, the singleplayer story of Black Ops is probably the least safe thing anyone's ever done with the franchise.
I'm not saying all shooters are the same, but certainly modern day army shooters are marginalized.
I wouldn't say all shooters are the same, Halo is a lot different feeling than Modern Warfare than Borderlands, for example.
Bestselling 360 games:
2. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (7.481 million approximately; 6.471 million in US,[2][3][4][5] 87,374 in Japan,[6] at least 1 million in UK)[7]
3. Gears of War (5 million,[8] may include PC version)
4. Gears of War 2 (5 million)[9]
5. Grand Theft Auto IV (4.362 million approximately: 3.29 million in US,[10] at least 1 million in UK,[7] 65,486 and 6,453 Platinum in Japan)[6]
6. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (4.226 million approximately: 3.04 million in US,[11] 78,000 in Canada,[12] 54,742 and 53,722 Platinum Collection/The Best in Japan,[6] at least 1 million in UK)[7]
7. Call of Duty: World at War (3.35 million approximately: 2.75 million in US,[10] 600,000 in UK)[13]
8. Halo: Reach (3.3 million in North America)[14]
9. Halo 3: ODST (3 million)[15]
10. Forza Motorsport 2 (2.674 million approximately: 2.23 million in US,[16] 31,255 and 100,591 Platinum Collection in Japan,[6] 12,600 in Canada,[17] 300,000 in UK)[18]
11. Fable II (2.6 million)[19]
12. Assassin's Creed (2.585 million approximately: 1.87 million in US,[11] 60,000 in Canada,[12] 55,261 in Japan,[6] 600,000 in UK)[18]
13. Forza Motorsport 3 (2 million)[20]
14. Guitar Hero II (2 million in North America and Western Europe)[21]
15. Saints Row (2 million)[22]
16. Assassin's Creed II (1.916 million approximately; 1.577 million in US,[2][3] 38,771 in Japan,[6] 300,000 in UK)[18]
17. Madden NFL 09 (1.87 million in US)[10]
18. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (1.862 million approximately: 1.49 million in US,[16] 72,274 in Japan,[6] 300,000 in UK)[18]
19. Red Dead Redemption (1.828 million approximately; 1.528 million in US,[23][24] 300,000 in UK)[18]
20. Rock Band (1.75 million approximately; 1.65 million in US,[25] 100,000 in UK)[26]
21. Madden NFL 07 (1.72 million in US)[16]
22. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (1.652 million approximately: 1.32 million in US,[16] 32,000 in Canada, [12] 300,000 in UK)[18]
23. Mass Effect 2 (1.6 million sold,[27] 2 million shipped; includes PC version)[28]
24. Mass Effect (1.6 million)[1]
25. Dead Rising (1.6 million)[29]
26. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas (1.591 million approximately: 1.27 million in US,[16] 18,592 and 2,731 Platinum Collection version in Japan,[6] 300,000 in UK)[18]
27. Call of Duty 3 (1.534 million approximately: 1.22 million in US,[16] 14,194 in Japan,[6] 300,000 in UK)[18]
28. Madden NFL 08 (1.51 million in US)[16]
29. BioShock (1.5 million)[30]
30. Crackdown (1.5 million)[31]
31. Perfect Dark Zero (1.5 million)[32]
32. Lost Planet: Extreme Condition (1.5 million)[29]
33. Fallout 3 (1.49 million approximately; 1.14 million in North America,[25] 49,543 regular and 5,669 Game of the Year edition in Japan,[6] 300,000 in UK)[18]
34. Resident Evil 5 (1.423 million approximately: 1.06 million in US,[33][34] 123.817 in Japan,[6] 200,000 in the UK,[35] 40,135 in France)[36]
35. Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter (1.411 million approximately: 1.2 million in US,[37] 8,903 and 1,622 Platinum Collection version in Japan,[6] 200,000 in UK)[35]
36. Call of Duty 2 (1.4 million)[38]
37. Fight Night Round 3 (1.29 million approximately; 1.19 million in US,[25] 100,000 in UK)[26]
38. UFC 2009 Undisputed (1.23 million approximately; 1.03 million in US,[39] 200,000 in UK)[35]
39. Guitar Hero: World Tour (1.124 million approximately; 924,000 in US,[25] 200,000 in UK)[35]
40. Star Wars: The Force Unleashed (1.123 million approximately; 923,000 in US,[25] 200,000 in UK)[35]
41. Battlefield: Bad Company 2 (1.03 million approximately; 825,500 million in US,[40] 16,139 in Japan,[6] 200,000 in UK)[35]
42. Rock Band 2 (1.02 million in US)[25]
43. Left 4 Dead (over 1 million)[41]
44. The Orange Box (at least 1 million)[42]
45. Dead or Alive 4 (1 million)[43]
46. Halo Wars (1 million)[44]
47. Ninja Gaiden II (1 million)[45]
48. Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2 (1 million)[46]
49. Uno (1 million, XBLA game)[47]
50. Viva Piñata (1 million)[48]
10 original IPs..ALL of which have multiple sequels/spin-offs. The last one to make the list was in 2007. (List isn't entirely accurate but it gets to point across)
As for stagnation, it's kind of sad when a small dev team being Red Orchestra 2 has implemented more improvements than all of the major fps developers combined. There are so many problems with FPS games (is there one out there that doesn't have a completely shitty CQC system?) and every one of them seems content to reuse the same shit.
It feels to me like part of the issue is that people these days are equating "commercial success" with "enough copies sold that we can buy nations with the profits; it feels sort of like TV in that sense, where something has to be popular with everyone or else it won't get off the ground.
Obviously the big companies are going to be aiming there, since they have the resources and name recognition to take a crack at something that will draw nine or ten-digit sales figures, but it still makes me sad that there isn't at least occasionally someone Notching it up in established genres with something weird and (if just initially) simple. I know dev costs for something like an FPS are probably high enough to make something like that much more difficult, though I personally don't have the first clue where the bottlenecks would be compared to, say, 4x games, which are comparatively niche and still spit out some decent B-games now and then.
Of course not. The point of FPSes is to create ketchup.
THIS. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
I have a friend who dismisses games because of their art style being bland. Often thins aren't just bland, he doesn't like the palette. Sometimes using a colourful palette doesn't work to fit a game's theme.
Alright, fine. I'm tired of many similar games being released on a regular basis. Is that a better statement?
You could have picked better screens for your refutation. I mean, in the first one, the sky is literally sort of grey and brown, not that it isn't arguably totally justifiable.
There is some nice green in that set.
I don't think anybody has ever accused Halo of being one of those "brown-and-grey" games - not anyone with half a clue at least. (And to be honest, anecdotally I have friends who berate Halo since the guns fire pink and green and blue shit).
The accusation goes against the insane amount of shooters with desaturated colors that are aping the style of Black Hawk Down. Usually they're military shooters. Usually they take place in a desert that has been aesthetically designed by someone who has no clue how colorful deserts can be. In almost all cases its just the easiest route to portraying something as gritty and "realistic".
Yes CoD is one of them, although the recent version being set largely in tropical areas has pepped things up a bit. But futuristic shooters aren't immune as well; just look to Gears of War for that. Basically, it's not that the games themselves aren't colorful or only take place in drab areas, its that things that should have color end up not having it anyway.
i'll take the 2010 fps. less "find the blue key" bullshit, more "something resembling a narrative"
lot of whiners and armchair gamedevs/marketers here. simmer down and quit complainin'. there's always gonna be dumb action games, but the dumb action game in question (blops) is at least having a go at providing a new insight into wars. it's streets ahead of DOOM
Yeah, I'd say anyone calling out the Halo games on excessive browniness should probably borrow someone else's eyes. Hell, the first shot on the surface of Halo in the first game was one that just had me panning around for awhile to take it all in.
CoD really has felt like it's been moving away from that lately, too. Modern Warfare and the earlier WWII ones had it in spades, but World at War and MW2 at least - I haven't played Black Ops yet - did a pretty good job at moving away from it. I found the favela level in MW2 pretty striking; it's still kinda desaturated, but riotous compared to, say, CoD2 or the original ModWar. Of course, sometimes the overblown desat worked anyway; I liked the effect in the Chernobyl sequence in Modern Warfare, if just for the tone of "this is a slain place" it gave those levels.
As far as complaints go, a lot of us might simply be aiming at a moving target that's no longer where our ire's being directed; if the genre's spending more time getting further away from that cliche I'd hardly mind, especially given that it was fairly overwhelming for awhile. When I hear "modern FPS," I automatically think "bland color palette" even though I know objectively that there's counterexamples all over the place.
Enjoy then. I personally have gotten a ton more replay from Doom, Quake, Blood, R6 etc than any CoD/MoH type game. I guess I'm one of those people who enjoys finding optimal paths through complex environments instead of tripping the trigger for the next wave of endlessly respawning baddies on my way through the corridor to the big cutscene finale. I'm not saying that I don't enjoy that sort of thing in a blockbuster summer movie kind of way, but I definitely don't get the bang for my buck that I get from older FPS design.
Um
A new insight into wars as a constant of human history?
Or a new insight into the electronic simulation of wars for our entertainment?
Eh, it doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other. While it had its share of issues, I'm reminded of Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising: it could still be somewhat linear in the level design, but it wasn't necessary at most points, and there were levels where there could be quite a bit of movement all over the place instead of being constrained to a path/corridor.
I was indifferent to the game in general, but the comparative freedom of movement definitely wasn't one of my objections to it. You could wind up with quite a bit of choice in terms of how to move someplace or attack something, to the point where it sometimes felt that the game was about maneuvering as much as shooting. In a certain mood I really liked that. (In a certain other mood, I'd load up something traditional, or set up a company-level shootout in OFDR's level editor.)