Yup, and that seems like how SC2 is starting out. 1 basing is still rather powerful and plenty of people do it (even in the high leagues). I hope the 1 gate expand build catches on quick vs terran, but I don't know if it will since the stim push is so devastating if you have slightly delayed timings. Increasing the stim time on its research would help with this of course, but I'm not suggesting stim should be nerfed.
Lilnoobs on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
I hope so because trying to think of a buff that actually works is hard. it doesn't seem like there's a straight up issue really, but something appears wrong.
Yup, and that seems like how SC2 is starting out. 1 basing is still rather powerful and plenty of people do it (even in the high leagues). I hope the 1 gate expand build catches on quick vs terran, but I don't know if it will since the stim push is so devastating if you have slightly delayed timings. Increasing the stim time on its research would help with this of course, but I'm not suggesting stim should be nerfed.
yeah, it's as weak against terran as a terran fe is against toss. if you don't get hit with early aggression you can be in a great position, but that early aggression can slaughter you.
Cheaper hatcheries. Relatively cheap units. It is very difficult to spend all of your money off one base, so they often feel like they naturally have to expand.
If I'm ever feeling uneasy, as a zerg player, I expand at about 40 food instead of immediately after pool. It's just so much safer cause you have some tech structures up and good enough economy, that provided you scout well, has a much better chance of fending off early 1-base aggression.
I, for one, would be interested in seeing some casts for the finals of this tournament. Can we get a schedule for these semi finals and finals matches?
How come Zerg can FE/macro so well? What about the race encourages this kind of play?
Only having to build one building, then producing units that building allows through your hatchery. Queens, lots of larva, and 300 mineral hatcheries.
everyone thinks hatcheries are cheaper, but it's not actually true. hatcheries cost 350 mins (50 mins for the drone) and the lost mining from one drone. hatcheries aren't really much cheaper at all.
the only reason people think it's easier to fe with zerg is because zerglings are very useful in the early, early game and can usually defeat the other races' tier 1 units for cost (i.e. 2 - 6 lings defeats 1 - 3 marines, 4 - 8 lings defeats 1 - 2 zealots).
that's what i think at least.
edit: beated by s-86
Ketherial on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
that estimated cost is great and all but when you can drop your hatch at 300 minerals it makes a huge difference.
the reason why they can get away with FE is because if you scout properly, in the early stages of the game you can finish a defensive structure and/or enough lings by the time the enemy can get to your base. They can do this because you can park lings outside their base with little to no danger of losing them, because of their speed, and with the way larvae works, you can basically trade what would be drone production for combat unit production. If protoss could decide to produce zealots from a nexus instead of probes for a short while, they could do the same.
40 is hella late. 21 is the latest I'll expand unless I'm doing some sort of all in roach play on something like steppes of war.
in fact, I think anything past 21 is all in, unless it's 1 base muta > expand, which isn't very good.
you're probably right. 40 does sound a little late. probably closer to 30-35. cause you can't even spend money fast enough that you'll automatically have 400+ minerals saved up if you're on 1-base with 28ish drones.
By the way, after the day9 daily with TLO, I started screwing around with Zerg and using the queen mini-map spawn larva, and it is soooo much easier than any other method around so far.
the reason why they can get away with FE is because if you scout properly, in the early stages of the game you can finish a defensive structure and/or enough lings by the time the enemy can get to your base. They can do this because you can park lings outside their base with little to no danger of losing them, because of their speed, and with the way larvae works, you can basically trade what would be drone production for combat unit production. If protoss could decide to produce zealots from a nexus instead of probes for a short while, they could do the same.
wait, why does this last part matter?
zerg still need a spawning pool (250 mins) for lings, just like toss need a pylon/gate (250 mins) for zealots.
the fact that lings build from the hatch is detrimental to fe, not beneficial.
Ketherial on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
By the way, after the day9 daily with TLO, I started screwing around with Zerg and using the queen mini-map spawn larva, and it is soooo much easier than any other method around so far.
I agree. I was doing backspace for a long time, but I feel like it was taking my eye off the action for far too long and the times it sent me to the wrong hatch were annoying. Also looking at your minimap more is never a bad thing.
the reason why they can get away with FE is because if you scout properly, in the early stages of the game you can finish a defensive structure and/or enough lings by the time the enemy can get to your base. They can do this because you can park lings outside their base with little to no danger of losing them, because of their speed, and with the way larvae works, you can basically trade what would be drone production for combat unit production. If protoss could decide to produce zealots from a nexus instead of probes for a short while, they could do the same.
wait, why does this last part matter?
zerg still need a spawning pool (250 mins) for lings, just like toss need a pylon/gate (250 mins) for zealots.
the fact that lings build from the hatch is detrimental to fe, not beneficial.
the reason why they can get away with FE is because if you scout properly, in the early stages of the game you can finish a defensive structure and/or enough lings by the time the enemy can get to your base. They can do this because you can park lings outside their base with little to no danger of losing them, because of their speed, and with the way larvae works, you can basically trade what would be drone production for combat unit production. If protoss could decide to produce zealots from a nexus instead of probes for a short while, they could do the same.
wait, why does this last part matter?
zerg still need a spawning pool (250 mins) for lings, just like toss need a pylon/gate (250 mins) for zealots.
the fact that lings build from the hatch is detrimental to fe, not beneficial.
because then they would be able to play a no-army game and power expansions and probes to their hearts content.
the reason why they can get away with FE is because if you scout properly, in the early stages of the game you can finish a defensive structure and/or enough lings by the time the enemy can get to your base. They can do this because you can park lings outside their base with little to no danger of losing them, because of their speed, and with the way larvae works, you can basically trade what would be drone production for combat unit production. If protoss could decide to produce zealots from a nexus instead of probes for a short while, they could do the same.
wait, why does this last part matter?
zerg still need a spawning pool (250 mins) for lings, just like toss need a pylon/gate (250 mins) for zealots.
the fact that lings build from the hatch is detrimental to fe, not beneficial.
because then they would be able to play a no-army game and power expansions and probes to their hearts content.
wait, now im lost as to what you are saying.
assuming everything else is the same (i.e., build times, requirement for pylon and gateway before you can build your first z), i dont think that if you could produce zs from the nexus instead it would help in anyway for toss to fast expand. the only thing that would help toss or terran fast expand is if they could make a large number of lings very quickly.
lings are ok, I feel like the fact that high drone counts are great for defense early one is being ignored.
How many times have we seen early pushes on the FE held off with like 4 lings and 10 drones?
edit: forget what i was saying, it was a stupid point.
How come Zerg can FE/macro so well? What about the race encourages this kind of play?
Only having to build one building, then producing units that building allows through your hatchery. Queens, lots of larva, and 300 mineral hatcheries.
everyone thinks hatcheries are cheaper, but it's not actually true. hatcheries cost 350 mins (50 mins for the drone) and the lost mining from one drone. hatcheries aren't really much cheaper at all.
the only reason people think it's easier to fe with zerg is because zerglings are very useful in the early, early game and can usually defeat the other races' tier 1 units for cost (i.e. 2 - 6 lings defeats 1 - 3 marines, 4 - 8 lings defeats 1 - 2 zealots).
that's what i think at least.
edit: beated by s-86
You could just as well say you made the drone with the intent of turning it into a hatchery, making the cost 350 and zero lost mining time, and then any mining you do wind up doing with it is a bonus
Aggregate cost is stupid. Adding the cost of a drone to zerg buildings doesn't work. For zerg it's about getting the building up. Your economy will be good if you don't suck, thats why zerg always want to be one base ahead.
the reason why they can get away with FE is because if you scout properly, in the early stages of the game you can finish a defensive structure and/or enough lings by the time the enemy can get to your base. They can do this because you can park lings outside their base with little to no danger of losing them, because of their speed, and with the way larvae works, you can basically trade what would be drone production for combat unit production. If protoss could decide to produce zealots from a nexus instead of probes for a short while, they could do the same.
wait, why does this last part matter?
zerg still need a spawning pool (250 mins) for lings, just like toss need a pylon/gate (250 mins) for zealots.
the fact that lings build from the hatch is detrimental to fe, not beneficial.
Small nitpick, but spawning pools are 200 minerals, not 250. :P
rehtonAesoohC on
Was wowed by Rift so I'm trying that now.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Posts
No offense to anyone involved in this upcoming grudge match, but I really hope it will be entertaining - are bronze matchups entertaining?
Edit: Also, I lost out on the last 30 pages of the thread, but do you still need someone for the diamond undercard games?
Something like Day9's most recent daily, featuring LoveTT v Zenio
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Quite on the spot ol' chap!
from my pov anyway.
yeah, it's as weak against terran as a terran fe is against toss. if you don't get hit with early aggression you can be in a great position, but that early aggression can slaughter you.
Only having to build one building, then producing units that building allows through your hatchery. Queens, lots of larva, and 300 mineral hatcheries.
more hatcheries = more larvae
more larvae = more drones and more units
more drones = more money for more units
they're sorta swarmy, like a swarm, like... zerging
B.net: Kusanku
in fact, I think anything past 21 is all in, unless it's 1 base muta > expand, which isn't very good.
everyone thinks hatcheries are cheaper, but it's not actually true. hatcheries cost 350 mins (50 mins for the drone) and the lost mining from one drone. hatcheries aren't really much cheaper at all.
the only reason people think it's easier to fe with zerg is because zerglings are very useful in the early, early game and can usually defeat the other races' tier 1 units for cost (i.e. 2 - 6 lings defeats 1 - 3 marines, 4 - 8 lings defeats 1 - 2 zealots).
that's what i think at least.
edit: beated by s-86
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
you're probably right. 40 does sound a little late. probably closer to 30-35. cause you can't even spend money fast enough that you'll automatically have 400+ minerals saved up if you're on 1-base with 28ish drones.
B.net: Kusanku
Larva are eggs, which are units of any kind for zerg.
Queens produce more larva, which produces units, etc etc.
Imagine Terran having a unit that temporarily allowed a reactor to produce 6 units at a time instead of 2 and you get the basic idea.
dropping a hatch at 300 is really not that much different from dropping a nexus at 400 with one less probe.
wait, why does this last part matter?
zerg still need a spawning pool (250 mins) for lings, just like toss need a pylon/gate (250 mins) for zealots.
the fact that lings build from the hatch is detrimental to fe, not beneficial.
I feel like the game itself shows that it is in fact quite different
I agree. I was doing backspace for a long time, but I feel like it was taking my eye off the action for far too long and the times it sent me to the wrong hatch were annoying. Also looking at your minimap more is never a bad thing.
because you can make more at once
like, say, 6
because then they would be able to play a no-army game and power expansions and probes to their hearts content.
if youre going a true fast expand, you won't have a pool up yet when you throw down the hatch. the queen would pop too late to do much.
for example, see the mlg dallas match that idra lost to select where by the time idra gets a queen out, select has already bunkered his ramp.
but not for the reason you say. it's because lings are crazy useful early game. that's the real reason.
wait, now im lost as to what you are saying.
assuming everything else is the same (i.e., build times, requirement for pylon and gateway before you can build your first z), i dont think that if you could produce zs from the nexus instead it would help in anyway for toss to fast expand. the only thing that would help toss or terran fast expand is if they could make a large number of lings very quickly.
How many times have we seen early pushes on the FE held off with like 4 lings and 10 drones?
edit: forget what i was saying, it was a stupid point.
You could just as well say you made the drone with the intent of turning it into a hatchery, making the cost 350 and zero lost mining time, and then any mining you do wind up doing with it is a bonus
Just catching up on the threads and saw this.
I get home around 6:30, my wife gets home around 7:30. Every time that I'm watching Day9 when she gets home, she says, "TRUMPETS!"
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
how boring
let's talk about something foreign and exotic
like zerg micro
Zelniq's first match in Day9's wednesday night fights was just amazing, where he micro'ed those blings/lings to capture the retreating marines
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
Small nitpick, but spawning pools are 200 minerals, not 250. :P
Gettin' all fancy up ins.
Sure, 250 if you want to include the drone. Gosh. Zerg.