Yeah, pretty sure there is no cure for small pox, just a vaccine which prevents you from catching it.
Gotcha.
Shit, even a halfway-effective vaccine would be a goddamn miracle.
edit: speaking of goddamn miracles, I'm sure everyone's heard that sanctimonious joke about the guy who's drowning and prays for God to save him, a couple boats come along and offer to pull him out and both times he's all "No thanks, God's gonna save me," then he drowns and in heaven he's all "wtf, God, why didn't you save me?" and God's like "Motherfucker I sent you two stupid boats."
Condoms are God's stupid boats, and he's probably not amused that people in power (who aren't suffering from AIDS) keep turning their nose up at them.
John Paul II wasn't as far to the theological right as Benedict XVI is, but he was certainly on the conservative side. Especially when it came to condoms as a method of AIDS prevention.
What exactly forms the liberal side of the condom issue within the church, though?
I ask this as someone without a lot of background in modern Catholic politics.
Okay for use by male prostitutes and as balloons. All others go to Hell.
Seriously, though, the liberal Catholics in the west are well aware the people use birth control. The liberal position would be something along the lines of "it's fine if you're married". Maybe "it's fine in a committed relationship" for the extremely liberal. The solid grain of insight at the heart of all the Church's woo-woo about sex is that it's not cool to treat other people as sexual objects, which is what they mean when they're talking about the "humanization" of sex (because of course one needs to be an obedient, practicing Catholic to be fully human). Regardless, most priests in the West are fully aware that most of the sexually active members of their congregations are using birth control most of the time, because Catholic families stopped having fifteen kids a piece about two generations back. Even those priests who are more in line with the Vatican's teachings recognize that the decision is generally one that is weighed against competing personal and moral concerns.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited November 2010
I am disappointed nobody has picked up on the stupidity in the statement that condoms are acceptable for "male prostitutes", when the majority of spread is from HIV infected men (who are distinctly not "Male prostitutes") giving it to their spouses. Usually because they have been fucking female prostitutes - who themselves have no other option often and don't get a choice in using condoms anyway - then they bring it home to their wives.
I really don't get the church's position, Islam is, by far, a more strict rule set about what it considers moral and its actually in favor of condoms. I remember a religous big shot here in Saudi that was discussing how many girls die because they don't get time to rest between child births and should use condoms 'till they feel ready to concive.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I really don't get the church's position, Islam is, by far, a more strict rule set about what it considers moral and its actually in favor of condoms. I remember a religous big shot here in Saudi that was discussing how many girls die because they don't get time to rest between child births and should use condoms 'till they feel ready to concive.
Got some citation on that? (just so that it isn't hearsay)
Meanwhile, the secular realm itself has developed the so-called ABC Theory: Abstinence-Be Faithful-Condom, where the condom is understood only as a last resort, when the other two points fail to work.
This means that the sheer fixation on the condom implies a banalization of sexuality, which, after all, is precisely the dangerous source of the attitude of no longer seeing sexuality as the expression of love, but only a sort of drug that people administer to themselves. This is why the fight against the banalization of sexuality is also a part of the struggle to ensure that sexuality is treated as a positive value and to enable it to have a positive effect on the whole of man's being.
He's afraid of hedonism getting it's foot in the door ... but what's wrong with hedonism? Condoms reduce spread of disease and unwanted pregnancies, our society of want means people are constantly working so sloth isn't too bad of a problem, I've never swallowed the idea that hedonism breeds disloyalty or disunity - what's so bad about hedonism? What negatives are left?
Lust is one of the Big Seven. It's kind of not up for debate.
Hedonism has a strong relationship to a shallow and self-centered worldview that makes long term relationships and happiness hard to come by. That may or may not apply to condoms specifically, but I know that the people I know that think more about feeling good than being good tend to duck out when the chips are down.
I really don't get the church's position, Islam is, by far, a more strict rule set about what it considers moral and its actually in favor of condoms. I remember a religous big shot here in Saudi that was discussing how many girls die because they don't get time to rest between child births and should use condoms 'till they feel ready to concive.
Got some citation on that? (just so that it isn't hearsay)
Yeah, "Saudis" and "Islam" are not the same thing. Cultural Islam can be pretty fucking stupid: See Saudi Arabia, Africa, etc.
Actual religious Islam, via the Quran, is fine a fair amount of the time. Condoms are allowed between two people, as I understand it, so long as the reason they're using a condom is sound. Such as not being able to support a child at this time in their lives, or having an illness that might harm the child, or a condition that makes it hazardous for the woman to survive childbirth. There's essentially a noted hazard that those who can't support their children might end up burying them in the woods or behind a dumpster to avoid taking care of them, which is obviously much worse than slapping on a condom and going for it.
Generally Islam, the scripture, tends to follow science to a T, if only because Allah made this shit possible though the intelligence that he allows mankind to have, so using science to fix your problems; be they medical or personal, isn't a big problem.
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Just an ancient PA person who doesn't leave the house much.
Hedonism has a strong relationship to a shallow and self-centered worldview that makes long term relationships and happiness hard to come by. That may or may not apply to condoms specifically, but I know that the people I know that think more about feeling good than being good tend to duck out when the chips are down.
What exactly does this mean, could you please expand upon your point?
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Is there really any sort of a pro-condom movement within the church?
If we're classifying the current pope as conservative on the issue, is there a more liberal side of the debate? Or really a debate at all?
Like Sal said, I doubt many people near the top of the hierarchy are making waves in that direction. Towards the bottom, I'd imagine there are more, but not enough to make a stir.
Anecdotal, but 4 or 5 years ago, the priest of the church I grew up going to gave a sermon saying that condoms weren't terrible and just because they're birth control, we shouldn't forget that they save lives etc. He knew it was going to be controversial so he gave out copies of his remarks so people could think about them. My dad ended up complaining to the bishop about it. Luckily all that came of it was a note back from the bishop telling my dad to take it up with the priest.
Hedonism has a strong relationship to a shallow and self-centered worldview that makes long term relationships and happiness hard to come by. That may or may not apply to condoms specifically, but I know that the people I know that think more about feeling good than being good tend to duck out when the chips are down.
Neglecting virtues of abstinence from sex and masturbation:
Potential difficulty in finding real happiness
Chance of contracting an STD
Neglecting condoms:
Chance of contracting an STD.
By golly, abstinence wins.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
Is there really any sort of a pro-condom movement within the church?
If we're classifying the current pope as conservative on the issue, is there a more liberal side of the debate? Or really a debate at all?
Yes there is, but it's primarily among the rank and file priests and religious (primarily nuns) rather than at the organizational level. The Church has been purging liberals in the hierarchy for thirty years now, and of course it's a vicious cycle because new members of the church hierarchy are all appointed by existing ones.
At the day to day level, though - if Joe Catholic is talking to his priest about family planning, it's probably 50/50 whether the priest in question will endorse condoms or other forms of birth control, at least in Western countries. If you're talking about preventing AIDS transmission, the numbers probably skew more heavily toward the "if there's any doubt, use a condom", assuming options like abstaining until you're tested aren't realistic.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
Hedonism has a strong relationship to a shallow and self-centered worldview that makes long term relationships and happiness hard to come by. That may or may not apply to condoms specifically, but I know that the people I know that think more about feeling good than being good tend to duck out when the chips are down.
Neglecting virtues of abstinence from sex and masturbation:
Potential difficulty in finding real happiness
Chance of contracting an STD
Neglecting condoms:
Chance of contracting an STD.
By golly, abstinence wins.
Damn, you completely trounced that pro-abstinence argument I never made!
Aaanyway.
Hedonism is not just doing something that feels good, it's seeking out and valuing that feeling over other things. Which has negative psychological consequences, even if you've learned how to mitigate outer consequences.
Hedonism has a strong relationship to a shallow and self-centered worldview that makes long term relationships and happiness hard to come by. That may or may not apply to condoms specifically, but I know that the people I know that think more about feeling good than being good tend to duck out when the chips are down.
Neglecting virtues of abstinence from sex and masturbation:
Potential difficulty in finding real happiness
Chance of contracting an STD
Neglecting condoms:
Chance of contracting an STD.
By golly, abstinence wins.
Damn, you completely trounced that pro-abstinence argument I never made!
Aaanyway.
Hedonism is not just doing something that feels good, it's seeking out and valuing that feeling over other things. Which has negative psychological consequences, even if you've learned how to mitigate outer consequences.
I don't necessarily disagree with you-but could you draw a line between that and this thread?
Because despite the fact that you said you weren't necessarily talking about condoms, in the context of this thread it sounds like you're saying condoms=hedonism.
Hedonism has a strong relationship to a shallow and self-centered worldview that makes long term relationships and happiness hard to come by. That may or may not apply to condoms specifically, but I know that the people I know that think more about feeling good than being good tend to duck out when the chips are down.
Neglecting virtues of abstinence from sex and masturbation:
Potential difficulty in finding real happiness
Chance of contracting an STD
Neglecting condoms:
Chance of contracting an STD.
By golly, abstinence wins.
Damn, you completely trounced that pro-abstinence argument I never made!
Aaanyway.
Hedonism is not just doing something that feels good, it's seeking out and valuing that feeling over other things. Which has negative psychological consequences, even if you've learned how to mitigate outer consequences.
I don't necessarily disagree with you-but could you draw a line between that and this thread?*
Because despite the fact that you said you weren't necessarily talking about condoms, in the context of this thread it sounds like you're saying condoms=hedonism.
Yeah sorry. When I post from my phone I lose some of the functionality I usually use to deal with my quote trees properly. It was in response to emnmnme here:
He's afraid of hedonism getting it's foot in the door ... but what's wrong with hedonism? Condoms reduce spread of disease and unwanted pregnancies, our society of want means people are constantly working so sloth isn't too bad of a problem, I've never swallowed the idea that hedonism breeds disloyalty or disunity - what's so bad about hedonism? What negatives are left?
Hedonism is not just doing something that feels good, it's seeking out and valuing that feeling over other things. Which has negative psychological consequences, even if you've learned how to mitigate outer consequences.
Hedonism is not just doing something that feels good, it's seeking out and valuing that feeling over other things. Which has negative psychological consequences, even if you've learned how to mitigate outer consequences.
What negative psychological consequences?
Kind of like how masturbation is supposed to make you go insane, I guess?
The sort put forth by religious types that have no backing in science or evidence whatsoever.
Hedonism is not just doing something that feels good, it's seeking out and valuing that feeling over other things. Which has negative psychological consequences, even if you've learned how to mitigate outer consequences.
What negative psychological consequences?
As fun as it is to feel good, deeper connection to others is a more important aspect of human happiness. So hedonism that values feeling good over human connection is a path to loneliness and many psychological difficulties that can accompany it.
Hedonism is not just doing something that feels good, it's seeking out and valuing that feeling over other things. Which has negative psychological consequences, even if you've learned how to mitigate outer consequences.
What negative psychological consequences?
As fun as it is to feel good, deeper connection to others is a more important aspect of human happiness. So hedonism that values feeling good over human connection is a path to loneliness and many psychological difficulties that can accompany it.
You are assuming that hedonism is only concerned with shallow happiness.
Hedonism is not just doing something that feels good, it's seeking out and valuing that feeling over other things. Which has negative psychological consequences, even if you've learned how to mitigate outer consequences.
What negative psychological consequences?
As fun as it is to feel good, deeper connection to others is a more important aspect of human happiness. So hedonism that values feeling good over human connection is a path to loneliness and many psychological difficulties that can accompany it.
You are assuming that hedonism is only concerned with shallow happiness.
Hedonism is not just doing something that feels good, it's seeking out and valuing that feeling over other things. Which has negative psychological consequences, even if you've learned how to mitigate outer consequences.
What negative psychological consequences?
As fun as it is to feel good, deeper connection to others is a more important aspect of human happiness. So hedonism that values feeling good over human connection is a path to loneliness and many psychological difficulties that can accompany it.
Except the issue there isn't the pleasure-seeking, it's the lack of connection.
Can you show how seeking pleasure is intrinsically harmful? Because I doubt you can.
Posts
I dunno, I reckon Jesus would be pretty suave.
Walk up to a girl in a bar, order her a glass of water then with a wave his hands now she has wine :winky:
I think we can all pretty much agree that prevention of any unwanted disease or state of being is optimal in whatever way we can get there, right?
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
Gotcha.
Shit, even a halfway-effective vaccine would be a goddamn miracle.
edit: speaking of goddamn miracles, I'm sure everyone's heard that sanctimonious joke about the guy who's drowning and prays for God to save him, a couple boats come along and offer to pull him out and both times he's all "No thanks, God's gonna save me," then he drowns and in heaven he's all "wtf, God, why didn't you save me?" and God's like "Motherfucker I sent you two stupid boats."
Condoms are God's stupid boats, and he's probably not amused that people in power (who aren't suffering from AIDS) keep turning their nose up at them.
Yeah. I dunno why I opened my mouth about it.
o_O
Okay for use by male prostitutes and as balloons. All others go to Hell.
Seriously, though, the liberal Catholics in the west are well aware the people use birth control. The liberal position would be something along the lines of "it's fine if you're married". Maybe "it's fine in a committed relationship" for the extremely liberal. The solid grain of insight at the heart of all the Church's woo-woo about sex is that it's not cool to treat other people as sexual objects, which is what they mean when they're talking about the "humanization" of sex (because of course one needs to be an obedient, practicing Catholic to be fully human). Regardless, most priests in the West are fully aware that most of the sexually active members of their congregations are using birth control most of the time, because Catholic families stopped having fifteen kids a piece about two generations back. Even those priests who are more in line with the Vatican's teachings recognize that the decision is generally one that is weighed against competing personal and moral concerns.
Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
Got some citation on that? (just so that it isn't hearsay)
Lust is one of the Big Seven. It's kind of not up for debate.
If we're classifying the current pope as conservative on the issue, is there a more liberal side of the debate? Or really a debate at all?
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I think there's a very small contingent who's okay with Birth Control after marriage, but they're not exactly causing a ruckus
--LeVar Burton
Actual religious Islam, via the Quran, is fine a fair amount of the time. Condoms are allowed between two people, as I understand it, so long as the reason they're using a condom is sound. Such as not being able to support a child at this time in their lives, or having an illness that might harm the child, or a condition that makes it hazardous for the woman to survive childbirth. There's essentially a noted hazard that those who can't support their children might end up burying them in the woods or behind a dumpster to avoid taking care of them, which is obviously much worse than slapping on a condom and going for it.
Generally Islam, the scripture, tends to follow science to a T, if only because Allah made this shit possible though the intelligence that he allows mankind to have, so using science to fix your problems; be they medical or personal, isn't a big problem.
What exactly does this mean, could you please expand upon your point?
Like Sal said, I doubt many people near the top of the hierarchy are making waves in that direction. Towards the bottom, I'd imagine there are more, but not enough to make a stir.
Anecdotal, but 4 or 5 years ago, the priest of the church I grew up going to gave a sermon saying that condoms weren't terrible and just because they're birth control, we shouldn't forget that they save lives etc. He knew it was going to be controversial so he gave out copies of his remarks so people could think about them. My dad ended up complaining to the bishop about it. Luckily all that came of it was a note back from the bishop telling my dad to take it up with the priest.
Neglecting virtues of abstinence from sex and masturbation:
Potential difficulty in finding real happiness
Chance of contracting an STD
Neglecting condoms:
Chance of contracting an STD.
By golly, abstinence wins.
What reason for using a condom isn't sound?
Pre-marital sex?
Not wanting kids despite being able to afford them?
(not my personal opinions)
glow-in-the-dark wang
Yes there is, but it's primarily among the rank and file priests and religious (primarily nuns) rather than at the organizational level. The Church has been purging liberals in the hierarchy for thirty years now, and of course it's a vicious cycle because new members of the church hierarchy are all appointed by existing ones.
At the day to day level, though - if Joe Catholic is talking to his priest about family planning, it's probably 50/50 whether the priest in question will endorse condoms or other forms of birth control, at least in Western countries. If you're talking about preventing AIDS transmission, the numbers probably skew more heavily toward the "if there's any doubt, use a condom", assuming options like abstaining until you're tested aren't realistic.
Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
Yeah, my point is that those are excellent reasons to use a condom.
Damn, you completely trounced that pro-abstinence argument I never made!
Aaanyway.
Hedonism is not just doing something that feels good, it's seeking out and valuing that feeling over other things. Which has negative psychological consequences, even if you've learned how to mitigate outer consequences.
--LeVar Burton
So I'm not sure what you're talking about, Mental.
Ye-no.
I don't necessarily disagree with you-but could you draw a line between that and this thread?
Because despite the fact that you said you weren't necessarily talking about condoms, in the context of this thread it sounds like you're saying condoms=hedonism.
Yeah sorry. When I post from my phone I lose some of the functionality I usually use to deal with my quote trees properly. It was in response to emnmnme here:
--LeVar Burton
Feel free to point out an example that doesn't fit one of those parameters.
(Hint hint, physical pleasure and pain aren't the only kinds!)
Kind of like how masturbation is supposed to make you go insane, I guess?
You're not going to trot out the old bullshit about nothing being altruistic because being unselfish makes you feel good, right?
ding ding ding
As fun as it is to feel good, deeper connection to others is a more important aspect of human happiness. So hedonism that values feeling good over human connection is a path to loneliness and many psychological difficulties that can accompany it.
--LeVar Burton
You are assuming that hedonism is only concerned with shallow happiness.
Preemptively dismissing it as 'old bullshit' doesn't really change the fact that it's true. I'd love to know what other motivation exists.
You do good things for people you empathize with, because doing good things for them makes you feel good, and seeing them in pain hurts you.
And you can do terrible shit for your own sake, or the sake of those you empathize with, to those you don't empathize with.
How is this controversial?
Well, yeah
Pretty much by definition
So much good will and money being wasted.
Except the issue there isn't the pleasure-seeking, it's the lack of connection.
Can you show how seeking pleasure is intrinsically harmful? Because I doubt you can.