If you see you're close on metal don't 14 hatch, problem solved. :P
but then how will the gracken have 40 drones at 3 minutes
He said on the SotG pre-cast that he and ret had done extensive testing and come to the conclusion that if you don't hatch first in ZvT you're going to lose because you can't macro up enough (obviously assuming the Terran scouts expansions properly and goes standard builds), and that Zerg should never ever pool first. If it's a choice between probably losing to 2-rax or almost definitely losing in macro it's no surprise Idra goes for the first.
Not even just macro, but also production. 1 hatch with a slightly earlier queen is not as good as 2hatch with 2 queen around the same time. Also, 14hatch means you can drop a crawler at the nat.
Also, Boxer going to take this I bet. Boxer has ridiculous TvT, and Polt was laddering a couple of hours ago, got rolled by Huk.
Old news, yadda yadda, but at any point did any of these zergs ever consider building the 14 hatch in their main instead of at the expansion? Ups expansion, speeds saturation of the main, and you can get 2 queens going for unit production all without exposing the nat. I realize it's a mineral sink later when you do expand, and there may be other problems with the idea as well, but do any pros ever try it or talk about it?
Dropping Loads on
Sceptre: Penny Arcade, where you get starcraft AND marriage advice.
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
If you see you're close on metal don't 14 hatch, problem solved. :P
but then how will the gracken have 40 drones at 3 minutes
He said on the SotG pre-cast that he and ret had done extensive testing and come to the conclusion that if you don't hatch first in ZvT you're going to lose because you can't macro up enough (obviously assuming the Terran scouts expansions properly and goes standard builds), and that Zerg should never ever pool first. If it's a choice between probably losing to 2-rax or almost definitely losing in macro it's no surprise Idra goes for the first.
Not even just macro, but also production. 1 hatch with a slightly earlier queen is not as good as 2hatch with 2 queen around the same time. Also, 14hatch means you can drop a crawler at the nat.
Also, Boxer going to take this I bet. Boxer has ridiculous TvT, and Polt was laddering a couple of hours ago, got rolled by Huk.
Old news, yadda yadda, but at any point did any of these zergs ever consider building the 14 hatch in their main instead of at the expansion? Ups expansion, speeds saturation of the main, and you can get 2 queens going for unit production all without exposing the nat. I realize it's a mineral sink later when you do expand, and there may be other problems with the idea as well, but do any pros ever try it or talk about it?
Yeah, it's very broodwar. It does leave you vulnerable to contain though, which is deadly for any race, but especially hard to break out of as zerg.
zerg rush on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Is anyone else getting nauseated any time ppl do the double rax scv-not-all-in? Getting sick of seeing that... I hate that they get rewarded for it. Its exciting when boxer does it in bw, and fun when fauxer does it ONCE, but now I just shudder when they do it. Just seems so lame.
I don't understand, not-all-in?
I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about
Yeah, it should be an all in but it's not because of mules. Pulling half or more of your scv's, and bringing 2-8 marines is incredibly powerful against anyone who can't completely wall in at that early stage of the game. Terrans are able to do this, and either win outright, or cause more damage to their opponent than it causes to themselves in the process. If a zerg tried this (not that it makes sense for a zerg) it would be all or nothing, but terrans can actually transition out of it, which doesn't seem right. It encourages this incredibly dumb strat that barely qualifies as starcraft.
Riledo on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
Even if terran loses all their SCVs its nearly impossible to kill them all without suffering more damage yourself, and they can catch back up much faster than their opponent due to mules.
They aren't even vulnerable to a counter attack because of a double barracks wall-in.
Normally I'm all for cheese but this is just pathetic.
Is anyone else getting nauseated any time ppl do the double rax scv-not-all-in? Getting sick of seeing that... I hate that they get rewarded for it. Its exciting when boxer does it in bw, and fun when fauxer does it ONCE, but now I just shudder when they do it. Just seems so lame.
I don't understand, not-all-in?
I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about
Yeah, it should be an all in but it's not because of mules. Pulling half or more of your scv's, and bringing 2-8 marines is incredibly powerful against anyone who can't completely wall in at that early stage of the game. Terrans are able to do this, and either win outright, or cause more damage to their opponent than it causes to themselves in the process. If a zerg tried this (not that it makes sense for a zerg) it would be all or nothing, but terrans can actually transition out of it, which doesn't seem right. It encourages this incredibly dumb strat that barely qualifies as starcraft.
They have those abilities because terran is the most defensive race. Things like MULES and repair and salvagable bunkers are there because Terran needs those defensive options. So it makes sense that the most defensive race should be able to have the most devasting offensive push using those defensive advantages with the lowest risk attached (and consequently, the highest reward).
Even if terran loses all their SCVs its nearly impossible to kill them all without suffering more damage yourself, and they can catch back up much faster than their opponent due to mules.
They aren't even vulnerable to a counter attack because of a double barracks wall-in.
Normally I'm all for cheese but this is just pathetic.
Yeah, I'm not really ever for cheese per-se, but I respect that going for a cheese typically puts you at great risk, this being the exception. Ergo, it gets used way more than other forms of cheese, at least from what I can see. If a zerg 6pools you (not even sure thats cheese tbh), he HAS to beat you or he is put in a horrible position economy wise.
Riledo on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
Yeah, but plenty of games have shown that it's not unbeatable. Zerg just can't blindly 14hatch and hope for the best all the time.
EDIT: Bunker salvage is there because bunkers can become a literally useless structure. Turrets, Photon Cannons, and Crawlers, can at least always do something, even if they're in a weird position. An empty bunker is literally useless.
3cl1ps3 on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
it's a stoppable all in though
I don't know what else there is to say
mules are good but like... you can't be a shitload of scvs behind that early and be fine. it's an enormous gamble.
Even if terran loses all their SCVs its nearly impossible to kill them all without suffering more damage yourself, and they can catch back up much faster than their opponent due to mules.
They aren't even vulnerable to a counter attack because of a double barracks wall-in.
Normally I'm all for cheese but this is just pathetic.
Yeah, I'm not really ever for cheese per-se, but I respect that going for a cheese typically puts you at great risk, this being the exception. Ergo, it gets used way more than other forms of cheese, at least from what I can see. If a zerg 6pools you (not even sure thats cheese tbh), he HAS to beat you or he is put in a horrible position economy wise.
unless he gets you down enough drones to put him ahead
own3d.tv uses Quakenet for IRC afaik, so MIRC would absolutely work. I have a birthday party to go to but I will be on later in the evening (like 10-11PM PST) and perfectly happy to play/stream/whatever for a while - just let me know. I'm setup for either uStream or own3d and have actually bumped up my quality a bit recently. If I am around for the stream earlier I'll let you know, it really depends on where my fiancee drags me.
Is anyone else getting nauseated any time ppl do the double rax scv-not-all-in? Getting sick of seeing that... I hate that they get rewarded for it. Its exciting when boxer does it in bw, and fun when fauxer does it ONCE, but now I just shudder when they do it. Just seems so lame.
I don't understand, not-all-in?
I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about
Yeah, it should be an all in but it's not because of mules. Pulling half or more of your scv's, and bringing 2-8 marines is incredibly powerful against anyone who can't completely wall in at that early stage of the game. Terrans are able to do this, and either win outright, or cause more damage to their opponent than it causes to themselves in the process. If a zerg tried this (not that it makes sense for a zerg) it would be all or nothing, but terrans can actually transition out of it, which doesn't seem right. It encourages this incredibly dumb strat that barely qualifies as starcraft.
They have those abilities because terran is the most defensive race. Things like MULES and repair and salvagable bunkers are there because Terran needs those defensive options. So it makes sense that the most defensive race should be able to have the most devasting offensive push using those defensive advantages with the lowest risk attached (and consequently, the highest reward).
Wait, what?
You might hate me, but I am happy with how the races work overall, I don't have an issue with bunkers or repair, but this is one area where I completely agree its ridiculous.
Show me a replay where someone holds off an SCV/marine rush without being further behind than the Terran.
Well let's see. Nestea won GSL2 by holding one off in close positions on Meta (read: shortest rush distance in the game)!
Oh, and I forget the players, but in one of the ZvTs in Ro64 the Zerg held it off easily and smashed the Terran both times he tried it.
If you blindly 14hatch and have to hold it off with Drones, yes, you will lose! If you scout and prepare (speedlings, get banelings quickly), you can easily crush it and then you're ahead of the Terran.
3cl1ps3 on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
Show me a replay where someone holds off an SCV/marine rush without being further behind than the Terran.
I don't have replays either way, but I've certainly seen it lose games as well as win games. that's why every single terran doesn't do it every single game.
Even if terran loses all their SCVs its nearly impossible to kill them all without suffering more damage yourself, and they can catch back up much faster than their opponent due to mules.
They aren't even vulnerable to a counter attack because of a double barracks wall-in.
Normally I'm all for cheese but this is just pathetic.
Yeah, I'm not really ever for cheese per-se, but I respect that going for a cheese typically puts you at great risk, this being the exception. Ergo, it gets used way more than other forms of cheese, at least from what I can see. If a zerg 6pools you (not even sure thats cheese tbh), he HAS to beat you or he is put in a horrible position economy wise.
unless he gets you down enough drones to put him ahead
Which is nearly impossible, as opposed to the SCV rush where the amount of damage it does is nearly guaranteed, if not winning outright.
EDIT: Except every Terran in the GSL, that is.
Dhalphir on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Show me a replay where someone holds off an SCV/marine rush without being further behind than the Terran.
Well let's see. Nestea won GSL2 by holding one off in close positions on Meta (read: shortest rush distance in the game)!
Oh, and I forget the players, but in one of the ZvTs in Ro64 the Zerg held it off easily and smashed the Terran both times he tried it.
If you blindly 14hatch and have to hold it off with Drones, yes, you will lose! If you scout and prepare (speedlings, get banelings quickly), you can easily crush it and then you're ahead of the Terran.
The finals of the GSL2 was not an SCV rush.
Dhalphir on
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Show me a replay where someone holds off an SCV/marine rush without being further behind than the Terran.
Well let's see. Nestea won GSL2 by holding one off in close positions on Meta (read: shortest rush distance in the game)!
Oh, and I forget the players, but in one of the ZvTs in Ro64 the Zerg held it off easily and smashed the Terran both times he tried it.
If you blindly 14hatch and have to hold it off with Drones, yes, you will lose! If you scout and prepare (speedlings, get banelings quickly), you can easily crush it and then you're ahead of the Terran.
The finals of the GSL2 was not an SCV rush.
....game 7 was marines and a fuck ton of SCVs dude. NesTea held it off with speedlings and spine crawlers, came out with more drones, and then killed Foxer.
Show me a replay where someone holds off an SCV/marine rush without being further behind than the Terran.
Well let's see. Nestea won GSL2 by holding one off in close positions on Meta (read: shortest rush distance in the game)!
Oh, and I forget the players, but in one of the ZvTs in Ro64 the Zerg held it off easily and smashed the Terran both times he tried it.
If you blindly 14hatch and have to hold it off with Drones, yes, you will lose! If you scout and prepare (speedlings, get banelings quickly), you can easily crush it and then you're ahead of the Terran.
I would say that chances are pretty good he's not going to do a marine/scv rush if you haven't 14 hatched (or at least, he'd execute a much more powerful marine/scv rush).
Drag on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
we can hyperbolize and say every terran in the gsl has won every game by doing that
or we can look at the games, see there are terrans who have lost, see it has been stopped, and see there are terrans who know it's not the be all end all build and do things differently (jinro coming immediately to mind)
it's a necessary open to go 2 rax and at least fake pressure and get an expo up yourself. 2 rax expand cause 1 rax leaves you open to speedling run-byes. but you can't just let the 14 hatch stand. so you either 2 rax-expand OR gamble everything and all in with marine/scv.
but it's a beatable all in.
I legitimately have to leave right now, don't want to seem like I'm bailing on a discussion but well, I don't have anything else to say. it's severe yes, I'm not saying it isn't strong, but it's not an auto win. at all.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited December 2010
No, it wasn't. The first attack was three marines and 3-4 SCVs. Maybe less SCVs, I forget the exact number
That is not an SCV rush.
The rushes we are talking about here are the 2-8 marines (depending on timing) along with approximately half the terran's current workers, which is 10-12 or even more. If FoxeR had done that Nestea would not have held it off, he only barely held off the rush that did happen.
Show me a replay where someone holds off an SCV/marine rush without being further behind than the Terran.
Well let's see. Nestea won GSL2 by holding one off in close positions on Meta (read: shortest rush distance in the game)!
Oh, and I forget the players, but in one of the ZvTs in Ro64 the Zerg held it off easily and smashed the Terran both times he tried it.
If you blindly 14hatch and have to hold it off with Drones, yes, you will lose! If you scout and prepare (speedlings, get banelings quickly), you can easily crush it and then you're ahead of the Terran.
Boxer threw away the game on metal, he was ahead after the initial push and instead of letting it go, he tried to rush in with 8 marines and a few more scvs instead of just backing off and consolidating his lead.
stimtokolos on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Hey, so, protoss getting some buffs in 1.2. Wheeeeee. Phoenixes are going to blot out the sun. Sad to lose speed rays, but now voids are legitimate anti-massive, so I suppose that's a good trade.
And repairing SCV attack priority is now equal to what they're repairing! Thank god.
Graviija on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Posts
if they have rules they have rules, I'm glad the bent them or whatever to allow this thing.
what they actually said...
I was out all day but I'm around now if you need help.
I found this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89581 which is all from BW but a lot of it is general enough that it should be worth a listen. to tide me over.
sickfiresbro.gif
Old news, yadda yadda, but at any point did any of these zergs ever consider building the 14 hatch in their main instead of at the expansion? Ups expansion, speeds saturation of the main, and you can get 2 queens going for unit production all without exposing the nat. I realize it's a mineral sink later when you do expand, and there may be other problems with the idea as well, but do any pros ever try it or talk about it?
3clipse: The key to any successful marriage is a good mid-game transition.
I read that like four times before I got it
that's just rude!
its a minor miracle that we got added. We're also on Child's Play's official calender.
thanks to everyone for their hard work getting this together.
Joe's Stream.
We may need a captain of moderators for the IRC with the stream.
and, the drunken lobbies afterwards. yeh, totally down with those.
Joe's Stream.
Yeah massive props to you guys for doing this, I'm pretty excited about it, should be really fun to watch!
so if anyone wants to do a lobby, I'd be in
jus sayin
Yeah, it's very broodwar. It does leave you vulnerable to contain though, which is deadly for any race, but especially hard to break out of as zerg.
OOH! OOH! I WILL DRUNKENLY MOD IRC!
Or soberly mod it.
But modding it would be fun.
How does own3d work for chat in that regard? I assume I can get in using mIRC?
Trus?
Joe's Stream.
Yeah, it should be an all in but it's not because of mules. Pulling half or more of your scv's, and bringing 2-8 marines is incredibly powerful against anyone who can't completely wall in at that early stage of the game. Terrans are able to do this, and either win outright, or cause more damage to their opponent than it causes to themselves in the process. If a zerg tried this (not that it makes sense for a zerg) it would be all or nothing, but terrans can actually transition out of it, which doesn't seem right. It encourages this incredibly dumb strat that barely qualifies as starcraft.
They aren't even vulnerable to a counter attack because of a double barracks wall-in.
Normally I'm all for cheese but this is just pathetic.
They have those abilities because terran is the most defensive race. Things like MULES and repair and salvagable bunkers are there because Terran needs those defensive options. So it makes sense that the most defensive race should be able to have the most devasting offensive push using those defensive advantages with the lowest risk attached (and consequently, the highest reward).
Wait, what?
Yeah, I'm not really ever for cheese per-se, but I respect that going for a cheese typically puts you at great risk, this being the exception. Ergo, it gets used way more than other forms of cheese, at least from what I can see. If a zerg 6pools you (not even sure thats cheese tbh), he HAS to beat you or he is put in a horrible position economy wise.
EDIT: Bunker salvage is there because bunkers can become a literally useless structure. Turrets, Photon Cannons, and Crawlers, can at least always do something, even if they're in a weird position. An empty bunker is literally useless.
I don't know what else there is to say
mules are good but like... you can't be a shitload of scvs behind that early and be fine. it's an enormous gamble.
unless he gets you down enough drones to put him ahead
Show me a replay where someone holds off an SCV/marine rush without being further behind than the Terran.
This is LoL, but things are looking nice:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/11187964
You might hate me, but I am happy with how the races work overall, I don't have an issue with bunkers or repair, but this is one area where I completely agree its ridiculous.
If Orbital Commands started at zero energy, that would greatly increase the risk of an all in, and I imagine making things much more exciting.
No clue, I'll do some checking
The thing is; we meet all their requirements (has a stream, has a prize, TL thread, etc)
Well let's see. Nestea won GSL2 by holding one off in close positions on Meta (read: shortest rush distance in the game)!
Oh, and I forget the players, but in one of the ZvTs in Ro64 the Zerg held it off easily and smashed the Terran both times he tried it.
If you blindly 14hatch and have to hold it off with Drones, yes, you will lose! If you scout and prepare (speedlings, get banelings quickly), you can easily crush it and then you're ahead of the Terran.
I don't have replays either way, but I've certainly seen it lose games as well as win games. that's why every single terran doesn't do it every single game.
Which is nearly impossible, as opposed to the SCV rush where the amount of damage it does is nearly guaranteed, if not winning outright.
EDIT: Except every Terran in the GSL, that is.
The finals of the GSL2 was not an SCV rush.
....game 7 was marines and a fuck ton of SCVs dude. NesTea held it off with speedlings and spine crawlers, came out with more drones, and then killed Foxer.
I would say that chances are pretty good he's not going to do a marine/scv rush if you haven't 14 hatched (or at least, he'd execute a much more powerful marine/scv rush).
or we can look at the games, see there are terrans who have lost, see it has been stopped, and see there are terrans who know it's not the be all end all build and do things differently (jinro coming immediately to mind)
it's a necessary open to go 2 rax and at least fake pressure and get an expo up yourself. 2 rax expand cause 1 rax leaves you open to speedling run-byes. but you can't just let the 14 hatch stand. so you either 2 rax-expand OR gamble everything and all in with marine/scv.
but it's a beatable all in.
I legitimately have to leave right now, don't want to seem like I'm bailing on a discussion but well, I don't have anything else to say. it's severe yes, I'm not saying it isn't strong, but it's not an auto win. at all.
That is not an SCV rush.
The rushes we are talking about here are the 2-8 marines (depending on timing) along with approximately half the terran's current workers, which is 10-12 or even more. If FoxeR had done that Nestea would not have held it off, he only barely held off the rush that did happen.
Boxer threw away the game on metal, he was ahead after the initial push and instead of letting it go, he tried to rush in with 8 marines and a few more scvs instead of just backing off and consolidating his lead.
Hooray!
Edit: I don't think my sig has been updated in like a month, whats up with that?
And repairing SCV attack priority is now equal to what they're repairing! Thank god.