The next game should have you play as a badass operative, and halfway through the game you get a mission to kill Sam Fisher, but then he kills you and you play the rest of the game as Sam for some reason.
I said that back when Conviction was first announced. "I hope they clear the way for a new main character, not because I dislike Sam Fisher but because he's getting on in years, and his character arc is finished."
Careful what you wish for.
Father and daughter co-op confirmed, Sarah Fisher as main character.
Funny this thread appeared. i just started up with Conviction again after digging it out of my backlog. i had it when it first came out, but then other games came up and Conviction was cast aside.
I love SC as a franchise. The sneaking always felt more "real" to me than anything else. The original and CT were the best. I tried to like DA, but like someone else said, the parts where they send you to do boring tasks in the base really messed up the pacing of the game.
The thing I really don't like about Conviction though is that there is very little option to play 100% stealth and the game even encourages you not to do so. It's not terrible, but it just doesn't feel like a true SC game.
I also hate the lighting mechanics. In the other SC it was much easier to tell if you were in the dark and well concealed. In Conviction, the Black&White vision makes it really confusing to tell how well you're hidden thus adding a huge level of uneccesary frustration. The cover system can also be a bit annoying. If I'm pressed against cover the guard can't see me. But if I'm still behind the same object I took cover against yet let go of the cover button, they all of the sudden can.
The Grey GOAT on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Faster, Faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." -HST
Didn't they take out the fun 2v2 MP that was in Chaos Theory? I think it was in PT too but I'm not sure which had the 'best' gameplay. I loved that shit, must of played that demo for hours.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
The Splinter Cell series was one of my favorites before Ubisoft decided to just throw the entire series out the window and make something completely different. Double Agent wasn't the best, but the series could've at least reverted to another Chaos Theory-type game after that. Instead, Ubisoft just trashed the gameplay they spent years refining and improving and sucked all the fun out of the series.
For Chaos Theory, the game played like you were actually somebody trying to sneak around actual places using actual spy tools. Conviction, on the other hand, just jams it in your face the entire time that this is a game filled with game things and game ideas. Sonar vision? Seriously? After years of having multiple vision modes as a series staple, Ubisoft junks them all and just gives you uber-vision? Whose idiotic idea was that?
Also, the fun MP actually started with Pandora Tomorrow and saw some major improvements with Chaos Theory. Then Ubisoft (no surprise here) completely scrapped that multiplayer design for the hideously dumbed-down and dull version in Double Agent and scrapped multiplayer entirely for Conviction except for coop.
Now that I think about it, Chaos Theory being so good is actually a pretty massive fluke for the series. I don't know what Ubisoft's problem is, but they seem to have a really major problem with identifying what makes their games good and keeping those elements. The PoP are all over the map, the Splinter Cell series is now a different series entirely with the same name, and I have to wonder if they aren't going to manage to turn the Assassin's Creed series into a flaming wreck.
But you know, as much as I will defend AP's gameplay to death, I really can't argue that it definitely suffered from "car person" syndrome, though not nearly as sluggishly so as that certain other game
Don't forget Ninja, they've also completely lost the plot on the Rainbow Six games. Missing in action for a while now. And Ghost Recon Future Soldier looks like rubbish.
The thing I really don't like about Conviction though is that there is very little option to play 100% stealth and the game even encourages you not to do so.
Three of your gadgets are alarm-triggering explosives and a fourth can act as another if its camera aspect is largely obsoleted by sonar goggles, so...yes, it seems a little confused about the whole "stealth" thing. And thus infiltration mode is pretty much all Five-seveN all day.
But you know, as much as I will defend AP's gameplay to death, I really can't argue that it definitely suffered from "car person" syndrome, though not nearly as sluggishly so as that certain other game
Seriously, what's the certain other game?
About 90% of UE3 cover based third person shooters, really.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I only briefly played a single Rainbow Six game back before the series went Michael Bay, but even that was enough to make me go "wtf?" at what they made the series into.
That's definitely something I'd attribute to Ubisoft going nuts, not Ubisoft focusing on console development. Sim-type games can be done on consoles no problem, but devs in general these days are just too lazy to put in the extra quality.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
If they could combine some of the movement from Conviction with the classic HUD and stealth of Chaos Theory, I would be so happy. Grim reinstating Third Echelon as an upstanding, legitimate organization would be cool as shit; and she'd get to stay in Sam's ear.
It doesn't help that Chaos Theory and Conviction are my favorites. CT for the obvious (it being fucking amazing?) and Conviction because I don't hate new things, loved some of the environments around DC, and love the story (awful narration from Coste aside).
e: Not to mention the co-op in both was fantastic. I'm pretty hard on Double Agent, but it isn't that bad.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited December 2010
I was perfectly willing to go along with the story of Conviction, but Ubisoft completely tore out the heart of the gameplay to the extent that it really even isn't a Splinter Cell game at all. To use a familiar reference point, imagine if Bungie changed the Halo series into a rail-driven sequence of quicktime events and then tried to pass it off as an evolution of the series. Regardless of how well they might do it, it simply wouldn't be an actual Halo game because all the important gameplay elements are gone.
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Olivawgood name, isn't it?the foot of mt fujiRegistered Userregular
The thing I really don't like about Conviction though is that there is very little option to play 100% stealth and the game even encourages you not to do so.
Three of your gadgets are alarm-triggering explosives and a fourth can act as another if its camera aspect is largely obsoleted by sonar goggles, so...yes, it seems a little confused about the whole "stealth" thing. And thus infiltration mode is pretty much all Five-seveN all day.
Mass Effect 2, which Spoit complains about in every thread about every game.
Yes. That's another thing I really didn't understand. You get all these cool weapons like a Desert Eagle and MP5's, but why use them if shooting anything unsilenced is going to bring 50 guards my way when they hear it? So again, it makes me question the intent of the designers, should I play as a stealth game or go in guns blazing? Even if I choose to go in guns blazing, the game doesn't feel right playing that way not because it's supposed to be stealth but because its a poor shooter overall. It's like they took the mechanics of the orignal SC and tried to make it into Gears of War or Rainbow Six.
The Grey GOAT on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Faster, Faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." -HST
And Future Soldier looks like a pretty fun, very scripted game.
Assassin's Creed is basically where the stealth genre has gone
The more public, crowd blending, free-running kind of stealth, instead of the sneaky-shadows-nighttime kind of stealth
I think both have their merits, but one is popular right now and one isn't
And I still think anyone complaining about Conviction's story changing the characters is crazy
They were barely even talking heads before so who gives a shit
Because they switched out those talking heads in the worst possible way. It wasn't even a gradual shift, they went from Sam's trusted allies to either dead by Sam's hand, or punched repeatedly in the face by Sam.
And maybe this is just me, I'm all for games being a more adult medium and examining themes or whatever, but I was in no way a fan of the section where the game forces you to violently assault a friendly, unarmed female character in order to progress. Especially when they do the whole "Sam doesn't want to do it, but then she makes him mad so it's not him, see, it's just his emotions" bullshit. I was honestly surprised there wasn't more discussion of that in the media.
And Sam is now a brutal psychopath that kills or beats everyone because being angry makes you a deep, interesting character.
You keep insisting that people think that Conviction had a deep, interesting story for some reason
No I don't. I keep saying that because some people, like creative director Maxime Beland, kept saying that Conviction is the first time we really get to know Sam and he really gets some depth of character.
And maybe this is just me, I'm all for games being a more adult medium and examining themes or whatever, but I was in no way a fan of the section where the game forces you to violently assault a friendly, unarmed female character in order to progress. Especially when they do the whole "Sam doesn't want to do it, but then she makes him mad so it's not him, see, it's just his emotions" bullshit. I was honestly surprised there wasn't more discussion of that in the media.
Sam's escape had to look believable.
He didn't want to hit her, but realized she'd probably be found out and killed if he didn't. Not a big deal really. At least that's what I got out of it.
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Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
And maybe this is just me, I'm all for games being a more adult medium and examining themes or whatever, but I was in no way a fan of the section where the game forces you to violently assault a friendly, unarmed female character in order to progress. Especially when they do the whole "Sam doesn't want to do it, but then she makes him mad so it's not him, see, it's just his emotions" bullshit. I was honestly surprised there wasn't more discussion of that in the media.
Sam's escape had to look believable.
He didn't want to hit her, but realized she'd probably be found out and killed if he didn't. Not a big deal really. At least that's what I got out of it.
No, she taunts him until he gets all growly, grits his teeth, and socks her in the face. Which is how he handles most of his problems in Conviction.
Well, see, here's the fun thing, this is a fictional story, and everything that happens in it happened because a writer decided that was the way things should go. So at some point in production, somebody had the idea that Sam should beat up a woman for whatever reason, and everybody said "Yeah, that's cool, put it in". They could have made up a hundred million other possible scenarios for that sequence. Put in a segment where Sam has to sneak into a computer room and alter security footage, or falsify a document, or help her escape from the base somehow. They could have gone any number of ways with it. But the way they went was the way where Sam had to beat up a woman. And again, they did it in the SINGLE WORST POSSIBLE WAY, which is having her taunt Sam until he gets angry, and THEN punches her. Because that excuses it, you see. It's fine, because she made him do it.
SC DA: Lame, lame, lame. Felt like playing a bad version of the 1st game.
SC C: Only fun from a bonehead pew-pew perspective. No stealth, no options, stupid black and white/color switching. And then there's there mark and execute. Worst gameplay feature ever. Basically the game forces you to NOT play and does all the work for you. Who enjoys this?
SC C: Only fun from a bonehead pew-pew perspective. No stealth, no options, stupid black and white/color switching. And then there's there mark and execute. Worst gameplay feature ever. Basically the game forces you to NOT play and does all the work for you. Who enjoys this?
I don't really agree with this. I played through Conviction much like I did CT, carefully sneaking through, killing the guards with my silenced FN-Fiveseven, and if shit starts to get bad, bust out the F2000 and see if I can make it out. Conviction gave me a few more escape moves, and the cover switching mechanic and Last Known Position lets me sneak around and out of bad spots far better than in older Splinter Cell games.
In one mission, for instance, I had a shotgun, and a silenced handgun. I came up on a large group of guys, and fired my shotgun into them and the lights. Then I ducked around them, and started to silently and quickly kill them with headshots with the silenced handgun. I could have also had a remote mine out, or a sticky cam, to distract and kill one or two of the guards.
On the black and white, when I was in shadows in CT, I had my goggles on, which meant everything was green and black. Major change there you know.
l337CrappyJack, you seem angry at the writing for the wrong reasons. Who cares what gender the friend being beaten is? The man flips his shit and beats up a friend because... writers? The important thing is that it seems poorly written and excused, not that Sam hit a woman. Anyways, its not like any of the armed guards stood any better of a chance at going toe-to-toe with Sam than Grim did.
I haven't played Conviction, but I imagine if the scene was more methodical, instead of said shit-flipping, it wouldn't really be an issue. If Sam were to just hit his buddy "enough" to fool Third Echelon, while in control of himself, instead of pummeling them because he's [strike]the Batman[/strike] a father and someone mentioned his dead [strike]parents[/strike] daughter*.
*I assume Grim poked him about his daughter, otherwise I don't know how they could rationalize Sam flipping out.
I don't really agree with this. I played through Conviction much like I did CT, carefully sneaking through, killing the guards with my silenced FN-Fiveseven, and if shit starts to get bad, bust out the F2000 and see if I can make it out.
Most people didn't go through CT killing everyone. Most people used up-close knock outs or avoidance. Its all about the 100%.
On the black and white, when I was in shadows in CT, I had my goggles on, which meant everything was green and black. Major change there you know.
I had a problem with the black and white because it, plenty of times, decreased the contrast between things while you were in the dark. It was sometimes hard to tell if you were walking into more shadow or were going to get yourself exposed. Not always, but enough that I'd complain about it. That problem didn't exist with the nightvision goggles because I could just flip them off for a few seconds.
It just never brightens anything or tweaks the contrast. It just makes it black and white.
It's also sometimes terrible in the Deniable Ops maps. Some parts of them, the game shifts to black and white and now you're completely fucking blind. Thanks a lot, Ubisoft.
I don't really agree with this. I played through Conviction much like I did CT, carefully sneaking through, killing the guards with my silenced FN-Fiveseven, and if shit starts to get bad, bust out the F2000 and see if I can make it out.
Most people didn't go through CT killing everyone. Most people used up-close knock outs or avoidance. Its all about the 100%.
Sure, and I did non-lethal things in CT. However, the scoring is only for those who payed attention to it (not me, I felt it limited your options too much), but in Conviction, Sam has no reason at all to not kill these guys. They aren't foreign government troops, they aren't innocent, and Sam's not working for the US government. You can totally still beat the game with mostly melee and avoidance, if you wanted to enough.
On the black and white, when I was in shadows in CT, I had my goggles on, which meant everything was green and black. Major change there you know.
I had a problem with the black and white because it, plenty of times, decreased the contrast between things while you were in the dark. It was sometimes hard to tell if you were walking into more shadow or were going to get yourself exposed. Not always, but enough that I'd complain about it. That problem didn't exist with the nightvision goggles because I could just flip them off for a few seconds.
It just never brightens anything or tweaks the contrast. It just makes it black and white.
It's also sometimes terrible in the Deniable Ops maps. Some parts of them, the game shifts to black and white and now you're completely fucking blind. Thanks a lot, Ubisoft.
That IS a good argument, and they could have done a better job, like have the edges of the shadow darker or brighter than the rest of it.
Posts
Only place they could actually go without looking farcical is some sorta prequel, before he joined Third Echelon.
The next game should have you play as a badass operative, and halfway through the game you get a mission to kill Sam Fisher, but then he kills you and you play the rest of the game as Sam for some reason.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Better yet, do you even think anyone could do it?
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/8/28/
Next piece of the series, a crossover: Batman: Arkham Today, Gotham Tomorrow
First half of the game is beating up terrorists, then a supervillain gets you and Batman picks up the trail.
Careful what you wish for.
I love SC as a franchise. The sneaking always felt more "real" to me than anything else. The original and CT were the best. I tried to like DA, but like someone else said, the parts where they send you to do boring tasks in the base really messed up the pacing of the game.
The thing I really don't like about Conviction though is that there is very little option to play 100% stealth and the game even encourages you not to do so. It's not terrible, but it just doesn't feel like a true SC game.
I also hate the lighting mechanics. In the other SC it was much easier to tell if you were in the dark and well concealed. In Conviction, the Black&White vision makes it really confusing to tell how well you're hidden thus adding a huge level of uneccesary frustration. The cover system can also be a bit annoying. If I'm pressed against cover the guard can't see me. But if I'm still behind the same object I took cover against yet let go of the cover button, they all of the sudden can.
"Faster, Faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." -HST
For Chaos Theory, the game played like you were actually somebody trying to sneak around actual places using actual spy tools. Conviction, on the other hand, just jams it in your face the entire time that this is a game filled with game things and game ideas. Sonar vision? Seriously? After years of having multiple vision modes as a series staple, Ubisoft junks them all and just gives you uber-vision? Whose idiotic idea was that?
Also, the fun MP actually started with Pandora Tomorrow and saw some major improvements with Chaos Theory. Then Ubisoft (no surprise here) completely scrapped that multiplayer design for the hideously dumbed-down and dull version in Double Agent and scrapped multiplayer entirely for Conviction except for coop.
Now that I think about it, Chaos Theory being so good is actually a pretty massive fluke for the series. I don't know what Ubisoft's problem is, but they seem to have a really major problem with identifying what makes their games good and keeping those elements. The PoP are all over the map, the Splinter Cell series is now a different series entirely with the same name, and I have to wonder if they aren't going to manage to turn the Assassin's Creed series into a flaming wreck.
Seriously, what's the certain other game?
Ubisoft just sucks.
And Future Soldier looks like a pretty fun, very scripted game.
Three of your gadgets are alarm-triggering explosives and a fourth can act as another if its camera aspect is largely obsoleted by sonar goggles, so...yes, it seems a little confused about the whole "stealth" thing. And thus infiltration mode is pretty much all Five-seveN all day.
Mass Effect 2, which Spoit complains about in every thread about every game.
About 90% of UE3 cover based third person shooters, really.
That's definitely something I'd attribute to Ubisoft going nuts, not Ubisoft focusing on console development. Sim-type games can be done on consoles no problem, but devs in general these days are just too lazy to put in the extra quality.
It doesn't help that Chaos Theory and Conviction are my favorites. CT for the obvious (it being fucking amazing?) and Conviction because I don't hate new things, loved some of the environments around DC, and love the story (awful narration from Coste aside).
e: Not to mention the co-op in both was fantastic. I'm pretty hard on Double Agent, but it isn't that bad.
Assassin's Creed is basically where the stealth genre has gone
The more public, crowd blending, free-running kind of stealth, instead of the sneaky-shadows-nighttime kind of stealth
I think both have their merits, but one is popular right now and one isn't
And I still think anyone complaining about Conviction's story changing the characters is crazy
They were barely even talking heads before so who gives a shit
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
Yes. That's another thing I really didn't understand. You get all these cool weapons like a Desert Eagle and MP5's, but why use them if shooting anything unsilenced is going to bring 50 guards my way when they hear it? So again, it makes me question the intent of the designers, should I play as a stealth game or go in guns blazing? Even if I choose to go in guns blazing, the game doesn't feel right playing that way not because it's supposed to be stealth but because its a poor shooter overall. It's like they took the mechanics of the orignal SC and tried to make it into Gears of War or Rainbow Six.
"Faster, Faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." -HST
Because they switched out those talking heads in the worst possible way. It wasn't even a gradual shift, they went from Sam's trusted allies to either dead by Sam's hand, or punched repeatedly in the face by Sam.
You keep insisting that people think that Conviction had a deep, interesting story for some reason
PSN ID : DetectiveOlivaw | TWITTER | STEAM ID | NEVER FORGET
No I don't. I keep saying that because some people, like creative director Maxime Beland, kept saying that Conviction is the first time we really get to know Sam and he really gets some depth of character.
Sam's escape had to look believable.
He didn't want to hit her, but realized she'd probably be found out and killed if he didn't. Not a big deal really. At least that's what I got out of it.
No, she taunts him until he gets all growly, grits his teeth, and socks her in the face. Which is how he handles most of his problems in Conviction.
SC PT: More awesome (LAX ending is hard as balls)
SC CT: Awesome-est. Easily the best of all 5.
SC DA: Lame, lame, lame. Felt like playing a bad version of the 1st game.
SC C: Only fun from a bonehead pew-pew perspective. No stealth, no options, stupid black and white/color switching. And then there's there mark and execute. Worst gameplay feature ever. Basically the game forces you to NOT play and does all the work for you. Who enjoys this?
That's pretty classy, right?
It was basically:
*Button press*
*Gratuitous violence*
*Shuffle to next set-piece*
Rinse, repeat.
I don't really agree with this. I played through Conviction much like I did CT, carefully sneaking through, killing the guards with my silenced FN-Fiveseven, and if shit starts to get bad, bust out the F2000 and see if I can make it out. Conviction gave me a few more escape moves, and the cover switching mechanic and Last Known Position lets me sneak around and out of bad spots far better than in older Splinter Cell games.
In one mission, for instance, I had a shotgun, and a silenced handgun. I came up on a large group of guys, and fired my shotgun into them and the lights. Then I ducked around them, and started to silently and quickly kill them with headshots with the silenced handgun. I could have also had a remote mine out, or a sticky cam, to distract and kill one or two of the guards.
On the black and white, when I was in shadows in CT, I had my goggles on, which meant everything was green and black. Major change there you know.
I haven't played Conviction, but I imagine if the scene was more methodical, instead of said shit-flipping, it wouldn't really be an issue. If Sam were to just hit his buddy "enough" to fool Third Echelon, while in control of himself, instead of pummeling them because he's [strike]the Batman[/strike] a father and someone mentioned his dead [strike]parents[/strike] daughter*.
*I assume Grim poked him about his daughter, otherwise I don't know how they could rationalize Sam flipping out.
Most people didn't go through CT killing everyone. Most people used up-close knock outs or avoidance. Its all about the 100%.
I had a problem with the black and white because it, plenty of times, decreased the contrast between things while you were in the dark. It was sometimes hard to tell if you were walking into more shadow or were going to get yourself exposed. Not always, but enough that I'd complain about it. That problem didn't exist with the nightvision goggles because I could just flip them off for a few seconds.
It just never brightens anything or tweaks the contrast. It just makes it black and white.
It's also sometimes terrible in the Deniable Ops maps. Some parts of them, the game shifts to black and white and now you're completely fucking blind. Thanks a lot, Ubisoft.
Sure, and I did non-lethal things in CT. However, the scoring is only for those who payed attention to it (not me, I felt it limited your options too much), but in Conviction, Sam has no reason at all to not kill these guys. They aren't foreign government troops, they aren't innocent, and Sam's not working for the US government. You can totally still beat the game with mostly melee and avoidance, if you wanted to enough.
That IS a good argument, and they could have done a better job, like have the edges of the shadow darker or brighter than the rest of it.