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Atheists: Please be quiet

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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    see, this is what I mean. An "Atheist Club" seems farcical, because the umbrella of "Atheist" would include religious guys like me and...

    white supremacists?

    like honestly

    "I agree there is no god" is not enough of a common issue to make up for the fact that I want to punch every white supremacist in the face until they stop bleeding

    Pony on
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    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Well, first, allow me a chortle at a thread that says, "You group of people shut-up while I get up on my soapbox and go on a rant."

    Second, I would say that the 'List of Atheist Pet Peeves' doesn't really reflect even the consensus of anti-theists like Hitchens or Harris, much less the majority of the entire spectrum of secularists (which is an incredibly diverse bunch of people).

    My own issues with religious convictions are shared with my issues with things like conspiracy theories & pseudo science: people holding fast to a belief and absolutely refusing to have it be challenged. Religious people tend to just brush aside skepticism by making a special plea to 'faith' - I think that it's intellectually lazy &, when the same attitude is applied to practical matters, it leads to negative consequences.

    I also think that human beings as a whole should become better at receiving criticism of their beliefs, religious or otherwise. Right now a lot of us, myself included, suck at it. A lot of people in this thread have said that arguments over beliefs make them uncomfortable; most people here have probably been in the room and got that wrenching feeling in their gut when someone starts to challenge the status quo (right or wrong). Painful as that it, I think we'd be better off if it happened more often so that we became more accustomed to it - so that it no longer made people uncomfortable or immediately set off some high strung emotions.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
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    YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Personally, I don't think you can be against so-called "state-sponsored displays of religion" like a nativity scene on the grass of the State Senate house or something

    and also

    at the same time

    be in favor of state sponsorship of the arts.

    Well, as long as no art is omitted, I don't see the problem.

    Another solution that doesn't violate the seperation of church and state to the "nativity scene" dilemma is allowing anyone to put up a holiday decoration of some sort.

    This works out fine, until some religious group gets offended by another group's display and steals it or takes them it to court. Like I said before, every religion thinks it has a priviledge status and it's dangerous.

    YodaTuna on
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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Personally, I don't think you can be against so-called "state-sponsored displays of religion" like a nativity scene on the grass of the State Senate house or something

    and also

    at the same time

    be in favor of state sponsorship of the arts.

    You can't see the slight difference between those two things?

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    oh hey The Ender inadvertently reminded me of the other association with the word "atheism" i despise.

    see, some people (largely American Christians) have made "atheist" associated with some kind of rabid god-hating lunatic who can't be trusted

    but on the other end of the spectrum is the other fully-made-up usage of "atheist", which is saying atheist when you mean "physicalist and empiricist who believes only in things supported by rational scientific analysis and rigorous research"

    so they think that saying "atheist" is a short-hand for some kind of physicalist who rebukes all claims of anything supernatural, metaphysical, or purely "faith-based"

    actually, it doesn't! it just says you don't believe in God. Or gods, plural, I guess.

    I see people say things like "I don't believe in ghosts, because I am an atheist", and I want to strike them in the nose with a newspaper and say "NO! BAD!" like a naughty puppy.

    because that is like saying "I don't eat complex carbohydrates, because I am a vegan"

    No, those two things have little if anything to do with each other.

    Pony on
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    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    or
    I don't believe in ghosts because of science

    man science didn't prove ghosts didn't exist

    we just found a better explanation than ghosts for a lot of things

    Fuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Personally, I don't think you can be against so-called "state-sponsored displays of religion" like a nativity scene on the grass of the State Senate house or something

    and also

    at the same time

    be in favor of state sponsorship of the arts.

    You can't see the slight difference between those two things?

    "The state shouldn't display religious materials or symbolism, because it is offensive to non-religious people"

    "Artists, funded by the state, have the right to display their art even if it is offensive to some people"

    wh-what

    Pony on
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    YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Personally, I don't think you can be against so-called "state-sponsored displays of religion" like a nativity scene on the grass of the State Senate house or something

    and also

    at the same time

    be in favor of state sponsorship of the arts.

    You can't see the slight difference between those two things?

    "The state shouldn't display religious materials or symbolism, because it is offensive to non-religious people"

    "Artists, funded by the state, have the right to display their art even if it is offensive to some people"

    wh-what

    Wrong. State sponsored religious displays aren't offensive. No one goes to court and bases their argument on offensiveness. It is a violation of the 1st amendment and against the law. Coincidently, offensive art is protected by the 1st amendment. It's the swiss army knife of amendments.

    YodaTuna on
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    mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    see, this is what I mean. An "Atheist Club" seems farcical, because the umbrella of "Atheist" would include religious guys like me and...

    white supremacists?

    like honestly

    "I agree there is no god" is not enough of a common issue to make up for the fact that I want to punch every white supremacist in the face until they stop bleeding

    But there are specific issues related to being an atheist that these groups will be able to agree upon and organize around.

    Just as groups organized around race or sexual orientation had specific issues they were able to organize around despite having just as large of a spectrum of worldviews as any group of atheists might.

    mynameisguido on
    steam_sig.png
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Personally, I don't think you can be against so-called "state-sponsored displays of religion" like a nativity scene on the grass of the State Senate house or something

    and also

    at the same time

    be in favor of state sponsorship of the arts.

    You can't see the slight difference between those two things?

    "The state shouldn't display religious materials or symbolism, because it is offensive to non-religious people"

    "Artists, funded by the state, have the right to display their art even if it is offensive to some people"

    wh-what

    Wrong. State sponsored religious displays aren't offensive. No one goes to court and bases their argument on offensiveness. It is a violation of the 1st amendment and against the law. Coincidently, offensive art is protected by the 1st amendment. It's the swiss army knife of amendments.

    well congratulations you use a US-oriented argument that applies wonderfully to the US and actually doesn't apply to many countries and also isn't the counter-argument I hear most angry anti-theists utilize.

    even American ones!

    so kudos?

    i guess

    Pony on
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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Personally, I don't think you can be against so-called "state-sponsored displays of religion" like a nativity scene on the grass of the State Senate house or something

    and also

    at the same time

    be in favor of state sponsorship of the arts.
    You can't see the slight difference between those two things?

    "The state shouldn't display religious materials or symbolism, because it is offensive to non-religious people"

    "Artists, funded by the state, have the right to display their art even if it is offensive to some people"

    wh-what
    That's not it at all.

    One is a religious display. It's not for art appreciation, but actual worship of a deity. It shows the endorsement of a religion by the government.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
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    lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Personally, I don't think you can be against so-called "state-sponsored displays of religion" like a nativity scene on the grass of the State Senate house or something

    and also

    at the same time

    be in favor of state sponsorship of the arts.

    You can't see the slight difference between those two things?

    "The state shouldn't display religious materials or symbolism, because it is offensive to non-religious people"

    "Artists, funded by the state, have the right to display their art even if it is offensive to some people"

    wh-what

    Wrong. State sponsored religious displays aren't offensive. No one goes to court and bases their argument on offensiveness. It is a violation of the 1st amendment and against the law. Coincidently, offensive art is protected by the 1st amendment. It's the swiss army knife of amendments.


    but

    It's only religious in nature if you take it that way.

    otherwise, it's just a piece, or pieces, of art. I'm not christian, but there are some very beautiful Nativity sets and scenes that I have seen. I almost bought one at one point, simply because the artistry of the pieces was so pretty and well done.

    It's just art. That some people put religious significance to.

    The Rose Window in Notre Dame is gorgeous. it's technically religious artwork, but it's still artwork.

    lonelyahava on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    Evander on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    see, this is what I mean. An "Atheist Club" seems farcical, because the umbrella of "Atheist" would include religious guys like me and...

    white supremacists?

    like honestly

    "I agree there is no god" is not enough of a common issue to make up for the fact that I want to punch every white supremacist in the face until they stop bleeding

    But there are specific issues related to being an atheist that these groups will be able to agree upon and organize around.

    Just as groups organized around race or sexual orientation had specific issues they were able to organize around despite having just as large of a spectrum of worldviews as any group of atheists might.

    except groups organized around race and sexual orientation have been (and in many cases, still are) fighting to change laws and government structures and policies that discriminate against them

    atheists do not suffer legal discrimination in the United States, Canada, or any European country I can name

    they do suffer legal descrimination in some Muslim countries, but so does everyone else who isn't Muslim, so...

    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    Pony on
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    mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    Except that God had "chosen people" and frequently asked them to commit genocide upon other civilizations.

    mynameisguido on
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    TheOrangeTheOrange Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Feral wrote: »
    Fartacus wrote: »
    OP (snip)


    fartacus.jpg

    I want in, honestly.


    While its been a while since I practiced, I still identify as a Muslim.

    At the time of its inception Islam was an absolute good, not net good, absolute; it came at a time when men buried alive their daughters for fear of shame, where you can own a person by kidnapping him/her and where a man was within his right to marry any number of woman he wants.

    Nowadays though, its, IMHO, barely breaks even between a net good and a net bad; I however live in Saudi, most hardcore Muslims ever, so my experience might be worst then most.

    I have no objection to using the fear of Hell to scare people into paying the 2.5% annual income charity (Zakat), its true that most people don't need guilt or fear to be charitable but people on the high end of the spectrum didn't get there by being charitable; coercion is needed there and I can't fault any method that takes money from the rich and give it to the poor.

    And on a personal level, I do loath the moment I lost my faith and I would never use my logic and argumentative skills to rob another person of his faith because I know that the lose of faith made me less happy.

    TheOrange on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    it's true!

    i mean, there's actually very little foundation in most religions to form a foundation for saying one race of people is intrinsically superior (except Judaism, i guess!)

    pretty much all white supremacy movements have been founded on flimsy pseudoscience about the evolutionary superiority of white people

    Pony on
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    YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    Of course there was no racism or doctrines of race superiorty before Darwin came a long right? And even if there was, those doctrines certainly weren't based on religion, that would be silly.

    I will try to find it, but that goofy ass creation "museum" has a sign up that indicates that non-whites existed before adam and eve and that's where cain's wife came from. The sign labels those non-whites as "spiritless". I shit you not.

    YodaTuna on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    it's true!

    i mean, there's actually very little foundation in most religions to form a foundation for saying one race of people is intrinsically superior (except Judaism, i guess!)

    pretty much all white supremacy movements have been founded on flimsy pseudoscience about the evolutionary superiority of white people

    Where is Judaism does it say anyone is superior?

    Evander on
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    YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    This is true. That's why you're seeing more forceful demonstrations of atheism. It's the exact same tactic that homosexuality used. Normalize it. Have people realize they probably talk to atheists every day. Telling atheists to shut up per the OP is actually counterproductive. You won't normalize an idea unless it is talked about.

    YodaTuna on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    Of course there was no racism or doctrines of race superiorty before Darwin came a long right? And even if there was, those doctrines certainly weren't based on religion, that would be silly.

    I will try to find it, but that goofy ass creation "museum" has a sign up that indicates that non-whites existed before adam and eve and that's where cain's wife came from. The sign labels those non-whites as "spiritless". I shit you not.

    This sort of defensiveness is what hurts discussions

    Tribalism is something that goes back to the roots of our species, and racism/xenophobia stem from THAT root, not from religion OR evolution. The idea that racism sans religion would be odd is odd itself, because religion (as code for Christianity) actually preaches the sameness of man, at its core.

    Evander on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    This is true. That's why you're seeing more forceful demonstrations of atheism. It's the exact same tactic that homosexuality used. Normalize it. Have people realize they probably talk to atheists every day. Telling atheists to shut up per the OP is actually counterproductive. You won't normalize an idea unless it is talked about.

    Homosexuality didn't normalize through having the most stereotypically effeminate homosexuals running around making a scene. It normalized through having otherwise normal and adjusted individuals come out, thereby showing that there was nothing different about homosexuals.



    What the OP is talking about is similar. Atheists shouldn't go in to hiding, but anti-religious atheists are hurting the cause for all others every time they open their mouths.

    Evander on
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    mynameisguidomynameisguido Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    While there may not be legal discrimination against atheists in the United States, it makes sense, given how rabid certain elements of the religious right in our country are, to keep vigilant about any attempts to use state money for sponsoring religion or any attempts to foist religion upon the public at large.

    Being a much-villainized minority probably helps keep these groups together as well.

    mynameisguido on
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    YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    Of course there was no racism or doctrines of race superiorty before Darwin came a long right? And even if there was, those doctrines certainly weren't based on religion, that would be silly.

    I will try to find it, but that goofy ass creation "museum" has a sign up that indicates that non-whites existed before adam and eve and that's where cain's wife came from. The sign labels those non-whites as "spiritless". I shit you not.

    This sort of defensiveness is what hurts discussions

    Tribalism is something that goes back to the roots of our species, and racism/xenophobia stem from THAT root, not from religion OR evolution. The idea that racism sans religion would be odd is odd itself, because religion (as code for Christianity) actually preaches the sameness of man, at its core.

    But according to some biblical "scholars" it does not preach sameness as you can see in the above example. And it only preaches sameness insofar as you are a member of that religion. You are Christian/Muslim/Jewish, therefore you are God's chosen people and are automatically better than those not in the group. Religion creates a superiority complex that can not be cured by science.

    YodaTuna on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    This is true. That's why you're seeing more forceful demonstrations of atheism. It's the exact same tactic that homosexuality used. Normalize it. Have people realize they probably talk to atheists every day. Telling atheists to shut up per the OP is actually counterproductive. You won't normalize an idea unless it is talked about.

    Homosexuality didn't normalize through having the most stereotypically effeminate homosexuals running around making a scene. It normalized through having otherwise normal and adjusted individuals come out, thereby showing that there was nothing different about homosexuals.



    What the OP is talking about is similar. Atheists shouldn't go in to hiding, but anti-religious atheists are hurting the cause for all others every time they open their mouths.

    every single time i make this point i get pilloried

    lets see what happens

    Pony on
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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    Of course there was no racism or doctrines of race superiorty before Darwin came a long right? And even if there was, those doctrines certainly weren't based on religion, that would be silly.

    I will try to find it, but that goofy ass creation "museum" has a sign up that indicates that non-whites existed before adam and eve and that's where cain's wife came from. The sign labels those non-whites as "spiritless". I shit you not.

    This sort of defensiveness is what hurts discussions

    Tribalism is something that goes back to the roots of our species, and racism/xenophobia stem from THAT root, not from religion OR evolution. The idea that racism sans religion would be odd is odd itself, because religion (as code for Christianity) actually preaches the sameness of man, at its core.
    And evolution doesn't say anything about superiority.

    So maybe we should drop that angle.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
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    YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    This is true. That's why you're seeing more forceful demonstrations of atheism. It's the exact same tactic that homosexuality used. Normalize it. Have people realize they probably talk to atheists every day. Telling atheists to shut up per the OP is actually counterproductive. You won't normalize an idea unless it is talked about.

    Homosexuality didn't normalize through having the most stereotypically effeminate homosexuals running around making a scene. It normalized through having otherwise normal and adjusted individuals come out, thereby showing that there was nothing different about homosexuals.



    What the OP is talking about is similar. Atheists shouldn't go in to hiding, but anti-religious atheists are hurting the cause for all others every time they open their mouths.

    Ok so atheists don't go into hiding. What should we do to normalize the idea if we are not allowed to debate the legitmancy of the idea over other ideas?

    YodaTuna on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    This is true. That's why you're seeing more forceful demonstrations of atheism. It's the exact same tactic that homosexuality used. Normalize it. Have people realize they probably talk to atheists every day. Telling atheists to shut up per the OP is actually counterproductive. You won't normalize an idea unless it is talked about.

    Homosexuality didn't normalize through having the most stereotypically effeminate homosexuals running around making a scene. It normalized through having otherwise normal and adjusted individuals come out, thereby showing that there was nothing different about homosexuals.



    What the OP is talking about is similar. Atheists shouldn't go in to hiding, but anti-religious atheists are hurting the cause for all others every time they open their mouths.

    every single time i make this point i get pilloried

    lets see what happens

    I think they're distracted by the strawman they've created who is blaming Darwin for the KKK

    Evander on
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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    This is true. That's why you're seeing more forceful demonstrations of atheism. It's the exact same tactic that homosexuality used. Normalize it. Have people realize they probably talk to atheists every day. Telling atheists to shut up per the OP is actually counterproductive. You won't normalize an idea unless it is talked about.
    Homosexuality didn't normalize through having the most stereotypically effeminate homosexuals running around making a scene. It normalized through having otherwise normal and adjusted individuals come out, thereby showing that there was nothing different about homosexuals.



    What the OP is talking about is similar. Atheists shouldn't go in to hiding, but anti-religious atheists are hurting the cause for all others every time they open their mouths.
    every single time i make this point i get pilloried

    lets see what happens
    Eh.

    I'm anti-religious, but I'm not inconsiderate. I know when and when not to discuss my opinions with people. Little old ladies do not hear a snarling retort from me every time I hear a "god bless" from their lips.

    So no, I don't think anti-religious people should be silenced. Just that people shouldn't be jerks to each other and restrain themselves from unprovoked attacks on deeply held worldviews.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    This is true. That's why you're seeing more forceful demonstrations of atheism. It's the exact same tactic that homosexuality used. Normalize it. Have people realize they probably talk to atheists every day. Telling atheists to shut up per the OP is actually counterproductive. You won't normalize an idea unless it is talked about.

    Homosexuality didn't normalize through having the most stereotypically effeminate homosexuals running around making a scene. It normalized through having otherwise normal and adjusted individuals come out, thereby showing that there was nothing different about homosexuals.



    What the OP is talking about is similar. Atheists shouldn't go in to hiding, but anti-religious atheists are hurting the cause for all others every time they open their mouths.

    Ok so atheists don't go into hiding. What should we do to normalize the idea if we are not allowed to debate the legitmancy of the idea over other ideas?

    I've bolded the word that is the issue with your point.

    I have heard homosexuals in the past argue that homosexuality is superior to heterosexuality (there is a list of reasons, including overpopulation, etc.)

    THOSE particular homosexuals are EXACTLY what the far right put up when they talk about the "gay agenda"



    If you want to be treated as equals, you need to introduce yourself AS an equal, not as a superior.

    Evander on
  • Options
    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    Of course there was no racism or doctrines of race superiorty before Darwin came a long right? And even if there was, those doctrines certainly weren't based on religion, that would be silly.

    I will try to find it, but that goofy ass creation "museum" has a sign up that indicates that non-whites existed before adam and eve and that's where cain's wife came from. The sign labels those non-whites as "spiritless". I shit you not.

    This sort of defensiveness is what hurts discussions

    Tribalism is something that goes back to the roots of our species, and racism/xenophobia stem from THAT root, not from religion OR evolution. The idea that racism sans religion would be odd is odd itself, because religion (as code for Christianity) actually preaches the sameness of man, at its core.

    But according to some biblical "scholars" it does not preach sameness as you can see in the above example. And it only preaches sameness insofar as you are a member of that religion. You are Christian/Muslim/Jewish, therefore you are God's chosen people and are automatically better than those not in the group. Religion creates a superiority complex that can not be cured by science.

    Where does it say you are better than those who aren't Christian/Muslim/Jewish? People may use it as a reason for feeling superior, but they do the same with white skin (and any other color of skin). A superiority complex doesn't have to come from a book.

    Zombiemambo on
    JKKaAGp.png
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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    This is true. That's why you're seeing more forceful demonstrations of atheism. It's the exact same tactic that homosexuality used. Normalize it. Have people realize they probably talk to atheists every day. Telling atheists to shut up per the OP is actually counterproductive. You won't normalize an idea unless it is talked about.

    Homosexuality didn't normalize through having the most stereotypically effeminate homosexuals running around making a scene. It normalized through having otherwise normal and adjusted individuals come out, thereby showing that there was nothing different about homosexuals.



    What the OP is talking about is similar. Atheists shouldn't go in to hiding, but anti-religious atheists are hurting the cause for all others every time they open their mouths.
    every single time i make this point i get pilloried

    lets see what happens
    I think they're distracted by the strawman they've created who is blaming Darwin for the KKK
    I think you just created a strawman out of a strawman.

    This thread will not fear crows for many a generation.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • Options
    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2010
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    This is true. That's why you're seeing more forceful demonstrations of atheism. It's the exact same tactic that homosexuality used. Normalize it. Have people realize they probably talk to atheists every day. Telling atheists to shut up per the OP is actually counterproductive. You won't normalize an idea unless it is talked about.

    Homosexuality didn't normalize through having the most stereotypically effeminate homosexuals running around making a scene. It normalized through having otherwise normal and adjusted individuals come out, thereby showing that there was nothing different about homosexuals.



    What the OP is talking about is similar. Atheists shouldn't go in to hiding, but anti-religious atheists are hurting the cause for all others every time they open their mouths.

    Ok so atheists don't go into hiding. What should we do to normalize the idea if we are not allowed to debate the legitmancy of the idea over other ideas?

    I've bolded the word that is the issue with your point.

    I have heard homosexuals in the past argue that homosexuality is superior to heterosexuality (there is a list of reasons, including overpopulation, etc.)

    THOSE particular homosexuals are EXACTLY what the far right put up when they talk about the "gay agenda"



    If you want to be treated as equals, you need to introduce yourself AS an equal, not as a superior.
    You seem to be confusing people with ideas.

    We treat people as equals. We respect their right to an opinion. To speak out on it. That doesn't necessarily apply to their ideas. They have to actually to defend that, as do we.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • Options
    The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does

    Err. The idea that everything was created individually implies sameness more than a theory that proposes that everything is connected by ancestry?

    I mean, you'd have to have a very, very strange perception of evolution & natural selection to think that the most recent organisms are 'superior' organisms & to miss out on the underlying (poetic, IMHO) fact that everything, from birch trees to homo sapiens, are part of the same family.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
  • Options
    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    Of course there was no racism or doctrines of race superiorty before Darwin came a long right? And even if there was, those doctrines certainly weren't based on religion, that would be silly.

    I will try to find it, but that goofy ass creation "museum" has a sign up that indicates that non-whites existed before adam and eve and that's where cain's wife came from. The sign labels those non-whites as "spiritless". I shit you not.

    This sort of defensiveness is what hurts discussions

    Tribalism is something that goes back to the roots of our species, and racism/xenophobia stem from THAT root, not from religion OR evolution. The idea that racism sans religion would be odd is odd itself, because religion (as code for Christianity) actually preaches the sameness of man, at its core.

    But according to some biblical "scholars" it does not preach sameness as you can see in the above example. And it only preaches sameness insofar as you are a member of that religion. You are Christian/Muslim/Jewish, therefore you are God's chosen people and are automatically better than those not in the group. Religion creates a superiority complex that can not be cured by science.

    Where does it say you are better than those who aren't Christian/Muslim/Jewish? People may use it as a reason for feeling superior, but they do the same with white skin (and any other color of skin). A superiority complex doesn't have to come from a book.

    Being "Chosen" in Judaism is actually a BURDEN above all else. The entire story of Jonah is about how horrible it is.

    Evander on
  • Options
    DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    How does one act flamboyantly atheist any way? Cos play as Darwin and speak with an English accent about how the universe does not require a creator to function?

    DanHibiki on
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    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Rorus Raz wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Pony wrote: »
    Atheists do not have a comparable struggle. What atheists struggle with (in the US more than anything else) is cultural discrimination. Atheists have a PR problem, they have a bad reputation especially in the United States and they are seen as one of the many opponents of the angry, zealous Christian Right

    and that does suck ass, for sure, but it's very hard to galvanize people on that point

    especially when the people who hate atheists the most also hate a bunch of other people and atheists are just one part of the grab-bag of their hatred

    This is true. That's why you're seeing more forceful demonstrations of atheism. It's the exact same tactic that homosexuality used. Normalize it. Have people realize they probably talk to atheists every day. Telling atheists to shut up per the OP is actually counterproductive. You won't normalize an idea unless it is talked about.

    Homosexuality didn't normalize through having the most stereotypically effeminate homosexuals running around making a scene. It normalized through having otherwise normal and adjusted individuals come out, thereby showing that there was nothing different about homosexuals.



    What the OP is talking about is similar. Atheists shouldn't go in to hiding, but anti-religious atheists are hurting the cause for all others every time they open their mouths.

    Ok so atheists don't go into hiding. What should we do to normalize the idea if we are not allowed to debate the legitmancy of the idea over other ideas?

    I've bolded the word that is the issue with your point.

    I have heard homosexuals in the past argue that homosexuality is superior to heterosexuality (there is a list of reasons, including overpopulation, etc.)

    THOSE particular homosexuals are EXACTLY what the far right put up when they talk about the "gay agenda"



    If you want to be treated as equals, you need to introduce yourself AS an equal, not as a superior.
    You seem to be confusing people with ideas.

    We treat people as equals. We respect their right to an opinion. To speak out on it. That doesn't necessarily apply to their ideas. They have to actually to defend that, as do we.

    You can have society treat you as equals or you can have society treat you as enemies.

    The choice is yours, but you can't sit there and yell "I DEMAND BOTH!" If your intention is to attack their way of life, they are not going to welcome you with open arms.

    Evander on
  • Options
    EvanderEvander Disappointed Father Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    How does one act flamboyantly atheist any way? Cos play as Darwin and speak with an English accent about how the universe does not require a creator to function?

    Cosplaying Dawkins would be better.

    Evander on
  • Options
    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2010
    DanHibiki wrote: »
    How does one act flamboyantly atheist any way? Cos play as Darwin and speak with an English accent about how the universe does not require a creator to function?
    Evolution is fully compatible with a creator, so I dunno about that.

    One could argue Darwin himself was an agnostic theist. He was very conflicted about it.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
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    YodaTunaYodaTuna Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    Evander wrote: »
    YodaTuna wrote: »
    I'm sure there's a ton of issues that a group of atheists can agree upon, though in a place where atheism is the norm it obviously wouldn't make much sense.

    I just want to point out that I knew a white supremcist atheist. It was odd.

    it makes MORE sense to me, honestly

    creationism implies sameness more than evolution does. Superiority is a more likely byproduct of evolution. I mean, Eugenics was built on pseudoscience, not pseudoreligion.

    Of course there was no racism or doctrines of race superiorty before Darwin came a long right? And even if there was, those doctrines certainly weren't based on religion, that would be silly.

    I will try to find it, but that goofy ass creation "museum" has a sign up that indicates that non-whites existed before adam and eve and that's where cain's wife came from. The sign labels those non-whites as "spiritless". I shit you not.

    This sort of defensiveness is what hurts discussions

    Tribalism is something that goes back to the roots of our species, and racism/xenophobia stem from THAT root, not from religion OR evolution. The idea that racism sans religion would be odd is odd itself, because religion (as code for Christianity) actually preaches the sameness of man, at its core.

    But according to some biblical "scholars" it does not preach sameness as you can see in the above example. And it only preaches sameness insofar as you are a member of that religion. You are Christian/Muslim/Jewish, therefore you are God's chosen people and are automatically better than those not in the group. Religion creates a superiority complex that can not be cured by science.

    Where does it say you are better than those who aren't Christian/Muslim/Jewish? People may use it as a reason for feeling superior, but they do the same with white skin (and any other color of skin). A superiority complex doesn't have to come from a book.

    Uh it's pretty easy, in each Abrahamic religion, only the people of that religion are God's chosen people. They get eternal rewards and the other ones do not. The whole idea is based around one group having the Truth and other groups do not. That's pretty superior.

    YodaTuna on
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