You could argue inside the keep could be one, but it's sightlines aren't nearly as good as the bridge....and again, too short, easy to bullrush through.
The path between the main part of the keep and the top tier is more narrow than the bridge, but it does have worse LOS, yeah. I've played a load of games where 10 Horde held off 30 Alliance for ages there because it's near impossible for your healers to be in any risk. :^:
It isn't a direct equivalent to the bridge because that isn't really possible with asymmetrical terrain but it can be used to similar enough affect where I'd say it's good enough for the map to be fair, I think it's just less obvious a point to defend and has traditionally gotten less use than the bridge as a result.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it can be done. I've done it a few times with other Hordies as well.
I'm just saying it's inferior, is all. The Horde towers also don't help as much as the Alliance bunkers.
I actually agree with Nobody, the best place we found to hold off Alliance advance was the choke next to Iceblood.
That was way back when people cared/it was server only AV's, though.
Bizazedo on
XBL: Bizazedo
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Except you can bypass that entrance and come in from the side. There's a hole in the fence up against the keep, so if the horde's trying to use that doorway as a chokepoint the allies can just go around it and get them from behind.
What I don't get is why they decided to give the defending team the advantage. Holding TB does matter - but really if you are trying to give one side a slight advantage, why not the attackers so it does flip back and forth more often then once every 4 days.
Except you can bypass that entrance and come in from the side. There's a hole in the fence up against the keep, so if the horde's trying to use that doorway as a chokepoint the allies can just go around it and get them from behind.
I didn't know if Blizzard had fixed that yet, so I was hesitant to point it out.
Seeing as they haven't....yay lol .
Bizazedo on
XBL: Bizazedo
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Horde has a similar choke as the Alliance bridge (path up to the top level of the keep) but we don't seem to make as good use of it.
That's because it's not really a choke. Not narrow enough/too short to really prevent the Allies by.
You could argue inside the keep could be one, but it's sightlines aren't nearly as good as the bridge....and again, too short, easy to bullrush through.
The path between the main part of the keep and the top tier is more narrow than the bridge, but it does have worse LOS, yeah. I've played a load of games where 10 Horde held off 30 Alliance for ages there because it's near impossible for your healers to be in any risk. :^:
It isn't a direct equivalent to the bridge because that isn't really possible with asymmetrical terrain but it can be used to similar enough affect where I'd say it's good enough for the map to be fair, I think it's just less obvious a point to defend and has traditionally gotten less use than the bridge as a result.
Defense here can be easily broken though. Unless you have multiple hunters who chain flares, its possible for a stealth class to sneak through the hut, climb about halfway up the ramp, and then go right and go around the fence (you come out on the far side of the tower). From there you can start forcing people to peel off to either defend the flag, or assassinate/harass healers when the main wave hits again.
EDIT: This is what I get when I try to post from work :P
What I don't get is why they decided to give the defending team the advantage. Holding TB does matter - but really if you are trying to give one side a slight advantage, why not the attackers so it does flip back and forth more often then once every 4 days.
Their reasoning is by giving the attackers an advantage then the defense has no reason to defend since they know they can just get it back when their turn as attackers comes up. Basically what happened when they made the honor reward 1800 (which makes it more obvious that was the janitor's idea since the lead designer's saying they want the opposite) where the defense just plain doesn't queue since they know they'll be losing. So they want to balance it just right so defense feels like they actually have a chance.
Of course they'll never be able to balance it at a knife's edge like that and one or the other will always end up with a massive advantage over the other, but they don't know that.
Opty on
0
FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
Defense here can be easily broken though. Unless you have multiple hunters who chain flares, its possible for a stealth class to sneak through the hut, climb about halfway up the ramp, and then go right and go around the fence (you come out on the far side of the tower). From there you can start forcing people to peel off to either defend the flag, or assassinate/harass healers when the main wave hits again.
EDIT: This is what I get when I try to post from work :P
Alliance used to be able to outflank that to the right through a gap in the palisade wall, did Blizzard ever fill that in ?
Defense here can be easily broken though. Unless you have multiple hunters who chain flares, its possible for a stealth class to sneak through the hut, climb about halfway up the ramp, and then go right and go around the fence (you come out on the far side of the tower). From there you can start forcing people to peel off to either defend the flag, or assassinate/harass healers when the main wave hits again.
EDIT: This is what I get when I try to post from work :P
Alliance used to be able to outflank that to the right through a gap in the palisade wall, did Blizzard ever fill that in ?
About the same time they removed the snowdrift outside the main gate :P
What I don't get is why they decided to give the defending team the advantage. Holding TB does matter - but really if you are trying to give one side a slight advantage, why not the attackers so it does flip back and forth more often then once every 4 days.
Their reasoning is by giving the attackers an advantage then the defense has no reason to defend since they know they can just get it back when their turn as attackers comes up. Basically what happened when they made the honor reward 1800 (which makes it more obvious that was the janitor's idea since the lead designer's saying they want the opposite) where the defense just plain doesn't queue since they know they'll be losing. So they want to balance it just right so defense feels like they actually have a chance.
Of course they'll never be able to balance it at a knife's edge like that and one or the other will always end up with a massive advantage over the other, but they don't know that.
I'm pretty sure they know it is difficult to balance. But the alternative is not even attempting to balance it. Which isn't much of an alternative at all.
We will most likely see a lot of changes as they keep tweaking it until it gets to the point that it is pretty close to balanced.
Delphinidaes on
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
So, I'm reading up on heirlooms - you can buy them with either Justice Points or Crusader Points? Wowwiki makes it sound like you earn Crusader Points by doing level 80 daily quests - are those quests still available? I assume Justice Points are earned at level 85 somehow (my highest toon is in the mid-70s).
jkylefulton on
0
DVGNo. 1 Honor StudentNether Institute, Evil AcademyRegistered Userregular
So, I'm reading up on heirlooms - you can buy them with either Justice Points or Crusader Points? Wowwiki makes it sound like you earn Crusader Points by doing level 80 daily quests - are those quests still available? I assume Justice Points are earned at level 85 somehow (my highest toon is in the mid-70s).
You get Justice Points from doing Wrath Dungeons (instead of a bundle of useful goods) via the Dungeon Finder. I assume Cata Dungeons give you something similar.
DVG on
Diablo 3 - DVG#1857
0
Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
What I don't get is why they decided to give the defending team the advantage. Holding TB does matter - but really if you are trying to give one side a slight advantage, why not the attackers so it does flip back and forth more often then once every 4 days.
Their reasoning is by giving the attackers an advantage then the defense has no reason to defend since they know they can just get it back when their turn as attackers comes up. Basically what happened when they made the honor reward 1800 (which makes it more obvious that was the janitor's idea since the lead designer's saying they want the opposite) where the defense just plain doesn't queue since they know they'll be losing. So they want to balance it just right so defense feels like they actually have a chance.
Of course they'll never be able to balance it at a knife's edge like that and one or the other will always end up with a massive advantage over the other, but they don't know that.
And by contrast, right now offense doesn't even queue because it's impossible to win. They created the exact situation they were trying to prevent, just on the other side.
What they should have done is favor the offense, just not significantly. Make it so defense can still win, just don't make it so ridiculously one-sided.
I mean, overall, if you're going to put rewards behind this thing, you need to give people access to those rewards. They also need to realize that all of their rewards are god damn PvE rewards and thus most of the people queuing for Tol Barad don't give a shit about PvP or any of the feel-good "competative challenge" they want to add in there. Frankly, they need to do away with this whole "PvP for PvE shit" system all together. It's retarded.
So, I'm reading up on heirlooms - you can buy them with either Justice Points or Crusader Points? Wowwiki makes it sound like you earn Crusader Points by doing level 80 daily quests - are those quests still available? I assume Justice Points are earned at level 85 somehow (my highest toon is in the mid-70s).
They're technically called champion's seals, but you get them by doing Argent Tournament dailies at the Argent Tournament grounds in Icecrown, which are very much still available.
Justice points are currently earned by doing the first random normal dungeon of the day, or doing heroics (from each of the bosses). I think you still get justice points for old Wrath heroics bosses, but I wouldn't waste time on them if you're still leveling.
What I don't get is why they decided to give the defending team the advantage. Holding TB does matter - but really if you are trying to give one side a slight advantage, why not the attackers so it does flip back and forth more often then once every 4 days.
Their reasoning is by giving the attackers an advantage then the defense has no reason to defend since they know they can just get it back when their turn as attackers comes up. Basically what happened when they made the honor reward 1800 (which makes it more obvious that was the janitor's idea since the lead designer's saying they want the opposite) where the defense just plain doesn't queue since they know they'll be losing. So they want to balance it just right so defense feels like they actually have a chance.
Of course they'll never be able to balance it at a knife's edge like that and one or the other will always end up with a massive advantage over the other, but they don't know that.
And by contrast, right now offense doesn't even queue because it's impossible to win. They created the exact situation they were trying to prevent, just on the other side.
What they should have done is favor the offense, just not significantly. Make it so defense can still win, just don't make it so ridiculously one-sided.
I mean, overall, if you're going to put rewards behind this thing, you need to give people access to those rewards. They also need to realize that all of their rewards are god damn PvE rewards and thus most of the people queuing for Tol Barad don't give a shit about PvP or any of the feel-good "competative challenge" they want to add in there. Frankly, they need to do away with this whole "PvP for PvE shit" system all together. It's retarded.
Wintergrasp was actually well balanced like this, as long as both sides were equal.
TB is just stupid and apparently they are stupid enough to want to balance it the other way.
I mean, overall, if you're going to put rewards behind this thing, you need to give people access to those rewards. They also need to realize that all of their rewards are god damn PvE rewards and thus most of the people queuing for Tol Barad don't give a shit about PvP or any of the feel-good "competative challenge" they want to add in there. Frankly, they need to do away with this whole "PvP for PvE shit" system all together. It's retarded.
Agreed. I've done a few battles in Tol Barad, but the thing is I don't really like pvp. Chances are I'm a detriment to my team, I don't have any pvp gear or that much experience. So either I start liking pvp and get some pvp gear, or I just have to sit on my ass and hope our side takes control and I can do my dailies. I don't like it when a guy in pvp gear tries to raid or do heroics, and I'm sure the pvpers don't like it when I take up a slot that could go to somebody that knows what he's doing.
What I don't get is why they decided to give the defending team the advantage. Holding TB does matter - but really if you are trying to give one side a slight advantage, why not the attackers so it does flip back and forth more often then once every 4 days.
Their reasoning is by giving the attackers an advantage then the defense has no reason to defend since they know they can just get it back when their turn as attackers comes up. Basically what happened when they made the honor reward 1800 (which makes it more obvious that was the janitor's idea since the lead designer's saying they want the opposite) where the defense just plain doesn't queue since they know they'll be losing. So they want to balance it just right so defense feels like they actually have a chance.
Of course they'll never be able to balance it at a knife's edge like that and one or the other will always end up with a massive advantage over the other, but they don't know that.
And by contrast, right now offense doesn't even queue because it's impossible to win. They created the exact situation they were trying to prevent, just on the other side.
What they should have done is favor the offense, just not significantly. Make it so defense can still win, just don't make it so ridiculously one-sided.
I mean, overall, if you're going to put rewards behind this thing, you need to give people access to those rewards. They also need to realize that all of their rewards are god damn PvE rewards and thus most of the people queuing for Tol Barad don't give a shit about PvP or any of the feel-good "competative challenge" they want to add in there. Frankly, they need to do away with this whole "PvP for PvE shit" system all together. It's retarded.
Yes, you need crusader and 60 seals to buy the heirloom armor and 95 for some of the weapons.
I think the most you can get is like 17 a day or something.
Not to mention that going for the Crusader title starting anew will take you almost a month of doing the dailys every single day. With that much time your better off just leveling an alt to max level without heirlooms.
Buddies on
0
Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Honestly though, if they really intend to keep the PvP-for-PvE-Stuff thing, I think bringing up AV was a really damn excellent point. And I'm talking about classic AV here. It's PvP, but it offered a lot of PvE stuff to do as well. Some was more beneficial to the battle than others (i.e. killing the harpies didn't really help the battle, but they did give you access to a useful pvp trinket... whereas others let you summon the wolf riders or elemental guys or buff your NPCs' armor, or whatever).
I really think that's the way they should have gone with this, especially since Tol Barad just opens up access to dailies anyways. Something like the "never-ending AVs" of the days of yore. For a big world-pvp type battleground like this, that's actually a good thing. Have dailies that actually occur during the battle. They would give one side upgrades or advantages to winning. Have dailies after the battle as well (maybe not available to the winner?) that would help out for the next one. Something that mixes PvP and PvE and provides things to do for both sides, if you intend on rewarding both sides (and they really need more PvP rewards in that case as well - frankly Algaloth is hard enough for less-than-serious PvEers and yet half of what he drops is PvP gear and that's the *only* PvP items you get out of TB :P).
L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
An eternal AV 1.0 -esque battle would be awesome.
I can see the daily quests now:
Get 10 KBs
Round up # of wolves
Kill X harpies
Capture # of mines
Escort STUPIDNPCNAMEHERE from one area of the map to another
Protect Drek'thar
Gather # of resources off of dead players
Or hell just copy some of the WG ones like: Kill X vehicles, destroy X,Y,Z towers/things/etc
etc.
And after the battle, when you have the whole map to your faction for some time, a day maybe, you can have more things dealing with the other faction, such as "there are some leftover (opposite side) NPCs in the mines, go kill XX of them," and the like. Or "prepare for the next battle by gathering XX resources from around the map."
Or they could get their shit together and learn how to balance things for once, and considering it's been more than six years of a horribly unbalanced PvP game, I think the writing's on the wall.
Ideally, they'd come up with some sort of DAoC-esque classic Emain zone. Fuck, just cut-and-paste that zone into your game - three keeps, mile gates, the whole works.
jkylefulton on
0
darklite_xI'm not an r-tard...Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
My main is an 85 rogue. Since Cata hit, I've been feeling like rogues at level cap are really underpowered compared to what the other classes have going for them. After stepping into some 60-65 BGs with my priest alt, I now realize that us rogues deserve every horrible indignity that we suffer. After being 2 shot by countless numbers of rogues using ambush/evisc, I couldn't help but look at myself in the mirror in utter disgust. My only regret is not having a low level rogue to enjoy that complete goosery.
Also, feral druids can die in a fire, but I've maintained that position since vanilla WoW. I've hated feral druids for as long as WoW's existed.
darklite_x on
Steam ID: darklite_x Xbox Gamertag: Darklite 37 PSN:Rage_Kage_37 Battle.Net:darklite#2197
I anxiously await the day when I have sufficient Tol Barad commendations to buy the remaining two things I want from their quartermaster (the drake and tabard), so that I can go back to pretending that Tol Barad doesn't exist.
I'm with you.
Still have like 300 tokens to go though. (I want the two mounts and the pet still. Spent my first lot of tokens on the agility trinket)
Ideally, they'd come up with some sort of DAoC-esque classic Emain zone. Fuck, just cut-and-paste that zone into your game - three keeps, mile gates, the whole works.
Won't work, there's no third faction, which was the lynchpin of DAoC PvP.
Ugh, I have no idea whether to main a Feral Druid or a Prot Pally this expansion. This would be easier if achievements and titles were account/server wide, ugh. I never go for the time consuming achievements because if I switch mains it's all wasted.
Ah man, was discussing the raiding situation in the guild I'm in with my friends and one of them pretty much called out the GM in guild chat.
Ended up where they only wanted one raid group so I said blah blah blah and so tomorrow I'll be discussing the second raid group thing with the raid leader (who is a nice guy) so hopefully he'll give me the go ahead and I'll be able to look for the two healers I need.
They also killed Omnitron which is good I guess.
Oghulk on
0
darklite_xI'm not an r-tard...Registered Userregular
So I decided to revive my mage as my main for Cataclysm, and right now in Deepholm nearing level 83. Fire spec is so much dam fun, huge crit numbers and procs that are just awesome; and being able to cast Scorch while running is brilliant.
So I decided to revive my mage as my main for Cataclysm, and right now in Deepholm nearing level 83. Fire spec is so much dam fun, huge crit numbers and procs that are just awesome; and being able to cast Scorch while running is brilliant.
And Deepholm is just amazingly beautiful.
When I played through the zone the first time, it was with low settings, and draw distance/environment detail all the way down. I've since upgraded to a beast of a machine, with everything on ultra, and holy shit. It's ridiculous
Hmm maybe I should give Deepholm another shot. I went there at the battlecall on my warrior, and as soon as I got to the quest where you fly up to the zepplin I said "fuck this I already did this shit in icecrown" and abandoned the quests and went to Uldum. It also didn't help that it was the worst zone by far for random combat ganking that I'd been to.
EWom on
Whether they find a life there or not, I think Jupiter should be called an enemy planet.
We finally got him after three hours of wipes (and spending nearly a goddamn hour on the trash before him).
Leather agi boots that got sharded, and a healing neck that went to someone not me.
I ended up having to switch to my smite solo spec for the fight to slap on an extra 2m damage at the end. I now have a splitting headache and took no joy at all from downing my first "real" raid boss of the expansion.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Posts
It isn't a direct equivalent to the bridge because that isn't really possible with asymmetrical terrain but it can be used to similar enough affect where I'd say it's good enough for the map to be fair, I think it's just less obvious a point to defend and has traditionally gotten less use than the bridge as a result.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it can be done. I've done it a few times with other Hordies as well.
I'm just saying it's inferior, is all. The Horde towers also don't help as much as the Alliance bunkers.
I actually agree with Nobody, the best place we found to hold off Alliance advance was the choke next to Iceblood.
That was way back when people cared/it was server only AV's, though.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
I am a freaking nerd.
Seeing as they haven't....yay lol
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Defense here can be easily broken though. Unless you have multiple hunters who chain flares, its possible for a stealth class to sneak through the hut, climb about halfway up the ramp, and then go right and go around the fence (you come out on the far side of the tower). From there you can start forcing people to peel off to either defend the flag, or assassinate/harass healers when the main wave hits again.
EDIT: This is what I get when I try to post from work :P
Their reasoning is by giving the attackers an advantage then the defense has no reason to defend since they know they can just get it back when their turn as attackers comes up. Basically what happened when they made the honor reward 1800 (which makes it more obvious that was the janitor's idea since the lead designer's saying they want the opposite) where the defense just plain doesn't queue since they know they'll be losing. So they want to balance it just right so defense feels like they actually have a chance.
Of course they'll never be able to balance it at a knife's edge like that and one or the other will always end up with a massive advantage over the other, but they don't know that.
About the same time they removed the snowdrift outside the main gate :P
I'm pretty sure they know it is difficult to balance. But the alternative is not even attempting to balance it. Which isn't much of an alternative at all.
We will most likely see a lot of changes as they keep tweaking it until it gets to the point that it is pretty close to balanced.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
You get Justice Points from doing Wrath Dungeons (instead of a bundle of useful goods) via the Dungeon Finder. I assume Cata Dungeons give you something similar.
And by contrast, right now offense doesn't even queue because it's impossible to win. They created the exact situation they were trying to prevent, just on the other side.
What they should have done is favor the offense, just not significantly. Make it so defense can still win, just don't make it so ridiculously one-sided.
I mean, overall, if you're going to put rewards behind this thing, you need to give people access to those rewards. They also need to realize that all of their rewards are god damn PvE rewards and thus most of the people queuing for Tol Barad don't give a shit about PvP or any of the feel-good "competative challenge" they want to add in there. Frankly, they need to do away with this whole "PvP for PvE shit" system all together. It's retarded.
They're technically called champion's seals, but you get them by doing Argent Tournament dailies at the Argent Tournament grounds in Icecrown, which are very much still available.
Justice points are currently earned by doing the first random normal dungeon of the day, or doing heroics (from each of the bosses). I think you still get justice points for old Wrath heroics bosses, but I wouldn't waste time on them if you're still leveling.
Also, I believe, though I could be mistaken, that you need to have the crusader title to buy the CS heirlooms.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Crusader_(title)
Yes, you need crusader and 60 seals to buy the heirloom armor and 95 for some of the weapons.
I think the most you can get is like 17 a day or something.
Wintergrasp was actually well balanced like this, as long as both sides were equal.
TB is just stupid and apparently they are stupid enough to want to balance it the other way.
Agreed. I've done a few battles in Tol Barad, but the thing is I don't really like pvp. Chances are I'm a detriment to my team, I don't have any pvp gear or that much experience. So either I start liking pvp and get some pvp gear, or I just have to sit on my ass and hope our side takes control and I can do my dailies. I don't like it when a guy in pvp gear tries to raid or do heroics, and I'm sure the pvpers don't like it when I take up a slot that could go to somebody that knows what he's doing.
Not to mention that going for the Crusader title starting anew will take you almost a month of doing the dailys every single day. With that much time your better off just leveling an alt to max level without heirlooms.
I really think that's the way they should have gone with this, especially since Tol Barad just opens up access to dailies anyways. Something like the "never-ending AVs" of the days of yore. For a big world-pvp type battleground like this, that's actually a good thing. Have dailies that actually occur during the battle. They would give one side upgrades or advantages to winning. Have dailies after the battle as well (maybe not available to the winner?) that would help out for the next one. Something that mixes PvP and PvE and provides things to do for both sides, if you intend on rewarding both sides (and they really need more PvP rewards in that case as well - frankly Algaloth is hard enough for less-than-serious PvEers and yet half of what he drops is PvP gear and that's the *only* PvP items you get out of TB :P).
I can see the daily quests now:
Get 10 KBs
Round up # of wolves
Kill X harpies
Capture # of mines
Escort STUPIDNPCNAMEHERE from one area of the map to another
Protect Drek'thar
Gather # of resources off of dead players
Or hell just copy some of the WG ones like: Kill X vehicles, destroy X,Y,Z towers/things/etc
etc.
And after the battle, when you have the whole map to your faction for some time, a day maybe, you can have more things dealing with the other faction, such as "there are some leftover (opposite side) NPCs in the mines, go kill XX of them," and the like. Or "prepare for the next battle by gathering XX resources from around the map."
Or they could get their shit together and learn how to balance things for once, and considering it's been more than six years of a horribly unbalanced PvP game, I think the writing's on the wall.
Also, feral druids can die in a fire, but I've maintained that position since vanilla WoW. I've hated feral druids for as long as WoW's existed.
I'm with you.
Still have like 300 tokens to go though. (I want the two mounts and the pet still. Spent my first lot of tokens on the agility trinket)
the camels aren't enough
Not specced into a healbot like good little druids.
Sucked at tanking and dps?
Won't work, there's no third faction, which was the lynchpin of DAoC PvP.
Be fair, everyone but warriors sucked at tanking and dps in vanilla.
Ended up where they only wanted one raid group so I said blah blah blah and so tomorrow I'll be discussing the second raid group thing with the raid leader (who is a nice guy) so hopefully he'll give me the go ahead and I'll be able to look for the two healers I need.
They also killed Omnitron which is good I guess.
And Deepholm is just amazingly beautiful.
When I played through the zone the first time, it was with low settings, and draw distance/environment detail all the way down. I've since upgraded to a beast of a machine, with everything on ultra, and holy shit. It's ridiculous
The only reason we even last longer than 45 seconds is because people take their time trying to die.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Origin: KafkaAU B-Net: Kafka#1778
We finally got him after three hours of wipes (and spending nearly a goddamn hour on the trash before him).
Leather agi boots that got sharded, and a healing neck that went to someone not me.
I ended up having to switch to my smite solo spec for the fight to slap on an extra 2m damage at the end. I now have a splitting headache and took no joy at all from downing my first "real" raid boss of the expansion.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)