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[Let's Read] Rifts: Let's Read Something Else

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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    I'm hit by a whiff of nostalgia...

    The moment both the group and GM alike realized that making called shots against weapons was often a more direct route to success.

    When a rifle hits for up to 120 damage on a crit, but the power armour wielding it punches for only 36 on a crit, I know which I'd rather get tagged by. Not to mention that said power armour might have 250 MDC or more, and the rifle probably had 50, if that.

    Granted, it wasn't an easy shot, and it meant destroying potential loot, but repairing and reloading could be expensive too.

    It was a bloody tactical arms race for a while there.

    Then one dude decided to abuse the shit out of Carpet of Adhesion and everything went downhill from there.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Oh God; it is literally the worst thing in the world when the game turns into that called shot arms race. Suddenly everyone is just focused on taking damage out of encounters that are already too long & too defender-friendly, and it just turns into a 20~ damage per round brawl that will never end.

    With Love and Courage
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Oh God; it is literally the worst thing in the world when the game turns into that called shot arms race. Suddenly everyone is just focused on taking damage out of encounters that are already too long & too defender-friendly, and it just turns into a 20~ damage per round brawl that will never end.

    You punch the monster for 24 damage.
    He bio-regenerates 16.
    He has 500 MDC.

    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    skyknyt wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    Oh God; it is literally the worst thing in the world when the game turns into that called shot arms race. Suddenly everyone is just focused on taking damage out of encounters that are already too long & too defender-friendly, and it just turns into a 20~ damage per round brawl that will never end.

    You punch the monster for 24 damage.
    He bio-regenerates 16.
    He has 500 MDC.

    My pillaged youth!

    With Love and Courage
  • OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    And at some point, they added a Zentradi melee OCC that specifically tries to do that kinda crap.

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    There's also the Glitter Boy Killer, which is explicitly described as a machine intended to kill Glitter Boy characters by destroying the Boom Gun - literally the only fun thing a Glitter Boy has access to.


    Of course, a reasonable GM would not use called shots against player weapons, because that's as anti-fun as it gets. But, a reasonable GM also wouldn't be trying to run a Rifts (TM) session, soooooo....

    With Love and Courage
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    And at some point, they added a Zentradi melee OCC that specifically tries to do that kinda crap.
    Yeah, those guys were awesome. A bunch of half-naked Zentradi running around with gladiator clubs doing non-random chunks of 5 or 6 melee damage and specifically targeting weapons systems.

    I always kind of assumed, once I saw them in combat, that they were designed to kill the game. Not the session you were playing, but Robotech the game line. They came in toward the end and they were about as fun as a sarlacc colostomy.

    Another thing with the called shots, that I only found out much later, is that they are even more impossible than you think they are. Because there's a huge penalty for hitting a moving target (i.e., anyone in combat ever) and then you're already shooting for a 12 or 16 depending on the target. So you're playing a really low percentage game (that's gonna take forever) to set up a higher percentage game of very low damage (that will likewise take forever).

    This is why designers need to think through the results of their choices, people.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Orca wrote: »
    And at some point, they added a Zentradi melee OCC that specifically tries to do that kinda crap.
    Yeah, those guys were awesome. A bunch of half-naked Zentradi running around with gladiator clubs doing non-random chunks of 5 or 6 melee damage and specifically targeting weapons systems.

    I always kind of assumed, once I saw them in combat, that they were designed to kill the game. Not the session you were playing, but Robotech the game line. They came in toward the end and they were about as fun as a sarlacc colostomy.

    Another thing with the called shots, that I only found out much later, is that they are even more impossible than you think they are. Because there's a huge penalty for hitting a moving target (i.e., anyone in combat ever) and then you're already shooting for a 12 or 16 depending on the target. So you're playing a really low percentage game (that's gonna take forever) to set up a higher percentage game of very low damage (that will likewise take forever).

    This is why designers need to think through the results of their choices, people.

    I thought the entire point of game design was to make something batshit insane that will make people want to play it, then when they play it, realize they've signed up for a 12 hour colonic irrigation.

  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Well, extending the fights to 300% of their original intended duration fits perfectly with Palladium's failures at delivering on their Robotech miniatures figures, which were estimated to take 7 months, and we're now up to 14 months and might get the first 2/3 of our boxes in the next 2-4 months. The remaining 1/3 could easily take another year.

    Basically what I'm saying is that their reputation for taking forever to deliver on books actually carries over pretty faithfully to anything they do.

    I can only imagine that ordering dinner with these guys must take at least an hour on its own.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • lowlylowlycooklowlylowlycook Registered User regular
    On the one hand, 30+ parts for RPG minis does seem excessive.

    On the other hand, if it wasn't lots of cool looking bits that don't really fit together then it wouldn't be Palladium, now would it?

    steam_sig.png
    (Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    As much as I bitched about CJ Carella back when I thought of Rifts as a "game" (as opposed to a setting), the books they've released without him since are just so unflavorful. Carella really understood why people played Rifts: crazy ass aliens and robots and locations and characters. Can we have a cybernetic god who carries a laser rifle and pilots a robot? WHY NOT THREE OF EM?!

    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
  • BursarBursar Hee Noooo! PDX areaRegistered User regular
    I remember one of the first world books was all about robots, and right at the very beginning there was a question-and-answer bit. One of the questions was "Why are all your robots humanoid and look like skulls, even thethe 50-foot tall ones?" and the answer was along the lines of "Because anime is cool, shut up."

    GNU Terry Pratchett
    PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
    Hit me up on BoardGameArena! User: Loaded D1
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  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Damn right. Forget feasibility and realness, I want more robot dragon mechs.

    Even if, mechanically, it was garbage. I DON'T CARE.

    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
  • OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    Rifts Atlantis was great.

    Ever wanted to be a biologically created super-soldier? Now's your chance!

  • thewhoisgreatfulthewhoisgreatful Registered User new member
    edited April 2015
    Hey,it's clear this thread as rolled critical 1 on its revive check and won't be active soon if ever again. So I just made an account to say thank you to all of you, especially to zed and The Ender. You see I've had a fascination for rifts for about 8 months now but being a high school student whose parents don't wish to buy these books for me I was only left to wonder how the game mechanics worked and felt like I was alone in liking rifts. Now though I can tell is rifts not only nostalgic thing from the past but popular cult hit. One that still has an active player base around it that can be found in the right places like this. This thread as done a lot in answering my questions about the game particularly in character sheets and classes. If anyone would be kind then I hope someone could post more data on on skills and their percentiles like the percentage you start off with cooking and how much it levels over time(just the original skills would even be fine) but that's just nit picking. Once again I just want to say thank you to all of you who have posted your thoughts good or bad on rifts and it's terrible mechanics. I now have a better understanding and can now try making a character of my own and finding a group to play it with

    I'll keep my eye out for any responses
    Bye

    thewhoisgreatful on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    I'm glad you enjoyed it.

    I've actually been considering picking this back up, there are just some infrastructure issues.

    Specifically, all the scans I was pulling images from died with my old computer and I'm lazy.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • thewhoisgreatfulthewhoisgreatful Registered User new member
    Honestly I'll be glad if this thread came back. I managed to get a good amount of cash to be able to buy about three books, though I'll just be starting with one. So a group like this at my disposal would be great to answer some questions I'll be sure to have.

    I know I'll be getting rifts:ultimate edition as my first read but what are you guys suggestions for the next two books.

    Right now I found two people in my school who've I peaked an interest for it and if I get a 3rd we can go to the schools safe haven for nerds the video game club :) times have changed friends since you guys played the original back in high school. We now have an official club!! Lol jokes.

  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I remember playing Rifts at lunch back in high school.

    If we were lucky we could get through one combat encounter!

    .... I miss those days

    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
  • OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    I never actually had a chance to play Rifts, though I lusted after doing so. Robotech I did. Fortunately, the kid DMing for me (we were both in middle school) went with a more free-form approach that threw out Palladium's rules entirely, used the sourcebooks for inspiration on weapons fit and comparative ability to take and receive damage, and essentially implemented something akin to Spirit of the Century.

    Overall, I'd say he made an extremely good choice in doing so.

  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    When I just started playing RPGs, we had a guy in the group suggest we play Rifts.

    The whole table looked at him like he suddenly grew two extra eyes and he didn't say anything else about it.

    I never understood the hate for Rifts until years later when I was DMing my first 3.5 game and some guy kept talking about his Rifts character he wanted to play and after about 5 seconds of listening to him talk about this vampire cyborg samurai thing, I said no. He whined about that for weeks until I finally had to cut him from the table.

    I've never played Rifts and I never will. It just sounds like a breeding pool of insanity and stupid.

  • OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    The system is broken, the classes and mecha and weapons unbalanced, the information poorly organized

    and none of that matters because you have magic alien vampire mecha psionic dragons.

  • OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    Basically, it's batshit insane, and while I wouldn't want to play the system as it exists, the ideas are a teenage boy's wet dream.

    By golly it's nice to wax nostalgic about it.

  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    At that point in the 90s everyone wanted gritty realism and tragedy in their RPGs. RIFTS didn't give a shit about that, it wanted you to play a cyborg flying a robot dragon with giant plasma cannons. It was incredibly refreshing.

    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
  • BursarBursar Hee Noooo! PDX areaRegistered User regular
    Rifts didn't care about theme or consistency. It wanted you to ask "Can I do [X]?" and the answer would always be "Sure, why not? Here's how."
    If enough people liked the answer, then the followup would be "Here's a sourcebook about it. $30, please."

    ...Ah, the stories I'm sure we could all tell.

    GNU Terry Pratchett
    PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
    Hit me up on BoardGameArena! User: Loaded D1
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  • dresdenphiledresdenphile Watch out for snakes!Registered User regular
    Rifts is a game where you can have a mech, a dragon, a wizard, and a plain old hobo in a party, and Palladium just says, "Yeah, that's fine, everything's fine!"

    steam_sig.png
  • thewhoisgreatfulthewhoisgreatful Registered User new member
    Okay I saw this race mentioned earlier in the forum yet searched online and couldn't find a description of them. Can anyone tell me what simvian warrior is

  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Simvan are like the Sleestacks in Land of the Lost. I think their full description is in Rifts sourcebook 1.

    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
  • thewhoisgreatfulthewhoisgreatful Registered User new member
    Well I'm sure they must get all the chicks then lol

  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Female Simvan are brick shithouses with master psionics, so you gotta watch what you say/think around them.

    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
  • dresdenphiledresdenphile Watch out for snakes!Registered User regular
    It looks like Rifts is back, in Pog form.

    steam_sig.png
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2015
    It's an interesting about face from their "NO D20 EVAR!" stance. Which is actually still up on their forums, despite the post being roughly 8 years old now.

    I don't think it's a controversial statement to say that while the setting is kind of fun and has potential, the mechanics are a hot mess. So swapping out the mechanics for something less prone to breaking in half or taking forever to generate characters/resolve combat with would be an improvement.

    I say that in general, however, as I have zero experience with Savage Worlds.

    Rifts was basically what the group made of it, and for smooth play (imo) required everyone to be on the same page. If the group wanted to be made up of a Godling, a Hatchling Dragon, a Russian Cyborg and "Jimmy, packing nothing more than his courage, a dapper duster, a 9mm and a bottle of Wild Irish Rose", they could. Or do a full Coalition States infantry team. Or Veritech Fighter pilots rifted in from another universe. Or Master Psychic Were-Panther Juicer Cyber-Knights with Rune Weapons, Techno-Wizard gadgets and an advanced Giant Robot with an AI that acted as mixed combat vehicle and sleeping quarters.

    But making encounters that challenged a diverse group without splattering the weaker members wasn't always easy, and combat was a particularly time intensive situation, while also being the most fun part for my group. So basically we played it as a 'dungeon' crawler/war game with RPG elements bookending our reasons for going all futuristic post-apocalypse murder-hobo on whatever bandit camp, marauding alien species or Alien Intelligence(tm)(r)(c) we happened to be pointing the business end of our weaponry at.

    I had fun with friends at the time, but I wouldn't recommend it to people, especially those who might expect the company that says it's going to release books to actually release books. Palladium's release schedule has been a running gag for literally decades at this point.

    We'll have to see if the SW version can improve on those standards.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    It's an interesting about face from their "NO D20 EVAR!" stance. Which is actually still up on their forums, despite the post being roughly 8 years old now.

    I don't think it's a controversial statement to say that while the setting is kind of fun and has potential, the mechanics are a hot mess. So swapping out the mechanics for something less prone to breaking in half or taking forever to generate characters/resolve combat with would be an improvement.

    I say that in general, however, as I have zero experience with Savage Worlds.

    Rifts was basically what the group made of it, and for smooth play (imo) required everyone to be on the same page. If the group wanted to be made up of a Godling, a Hatchling Dragon, a Russian Cyborg and "Jimmy, packing nothing more than his courage, a dapper duster, a 9mm and a bottle of Wild Irish Rose", they could. Or do a full Coalition States infantry team. Or Veritech Fighter pilots rifted in from another universe. Or Master Psychic Were-Panther Juicer Cyber-Knights with Rune Weapons, Techno-Wizard gadgets and an advanced Giant Robot with an AI that acted as mixed combat vehicle and sleeping quarters.

    But making encounters that challenged a diverse group without splattering the weaker members wasn't always easy, and combat was a particularly time intensive situation, while also being the most fun part for my group. So basically we played it as a 'dungeon' crawler/war game with RPG elements bookending our reasons for going all futuristic post-apocalypse murder-hobo on whatever bandit camp, marauding alien species or Alien Intelligence(tm)(r)(c) we happened to be pointing the business end of our weaponry at.

    I had fun with friends at the time, but I wouldn't recommend it to people, especially those who might expect the company that says it's going to release books to actually release books. Palladium's release schedule has been a running gag for literally decades at this point.

    We'll have to see if the SW version can improve on those standards.

    Well the SW version will probably have the following going for it:

    1. An actual working rules set.
    2. Not actually being written in house by Palladium.
    3. Not doing layout by hand.
    4. An actual working rules set.
    5. Produced by grown ups who have actually produced a working RPG in the past.
    6. Not requiring Kevin to take the freelancer's work and completely rewriting it.
    7. An actual working rules set.
    8. Using a ruleset that isn't designed to be so granular that we will need 40 different driving skills.
    9. So many less tables.
    10. A chance to throw away the concept of SDC and MDC.
    11. An actual working rules set.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    I remember when I GM'd rifts I had a very simple set of rules for character creation (because some parts of it could get ridiculous)
    1. If you try and make a character with hard rules (those in the game itself) conflicts I will apply them with vindictive effectivness.
    2. If you want to play a character with a bucket of mystic martial arts powers, psynetics, gene splicing, cybernetics and biowizard symbiotes good news: you can as long as you can provide a convincing explanation for how you managed to go from japan to poland to the black forest to Atlantis keeping in mind that I am exceedingly skeptical.

  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    I remember when I GM'd rifts I had a very simple set of rules for character creation (because some parts of it could get ridiculous)
    1. If you try and make a character with hard rules (those in the game itself) conflicts I will apply them with vindictive effectivness.
    2. If you want to play a character with a bucket of mystic martial arts powers, psynetics, gene splicing, cybernetics and biowizard symbiotes good news: you can as long as you can provide a convincing explanation for how you managed to go from japan to poland to the black forest to Atlantis keeping in mind that I am exceedingly skeptical.

    Time travel, obviously.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    I've actually been working on yet another Rifts conversion, so this news is pretty timely for me. I'll be interested to see how Savage Worlds handles the whole thing, though I'm not terribly familiar with that system.

    I think it's encouraging that this is happening at all, given Palladium's stance on any sort of conversion work for the last couple of decades. Namely; don't do it or we'll sue you.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2015
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    I remember when I GM'd rifts I had a very simple set of rules for character creation (because some parts of it could get ridiculous)
    1. If you try and make a character with hard rules (those in the game itself) conflicts I will apply them with vindictive effectivness.
    2. If you want to play a character with a bucket of mystic martial arts powers, psynetics, gene splicing, cybernetics and biowizard symbiotes good news: you can as long as you can provide a convincing explanation for how you managed to go from japan to poland to the black forest to Atlantis keeping in mind that I am exceedingly skeptical.

    Time travel Rifts, obviously.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Honestly, as much as I love the game, the one thing that enfuriated me?

    The skill system.

    Doing the whole system with a static baseline Skill system is deeply frustrating on a level I can't adequately describe; to get a 50% chance to succeed at prowl with a first level character you need to have some combination of high intelligence (at least 19) and a huge bonus to either physical or rogue skills (at least 20%)

    Then of course was the ridiculous gating that they put on certain skills; mechanical skills were a clusterfuck and god help you if you decided you wanted to take hacking (Literacy -> Computer Operations -> Computer Programming -> Hacking... which had a base skill of 15%).

  • OstracizedOstracized Registered User regular
    Nice to see this thread somewhat revived. Although I haven't played for more than a decade I kept on buying the books. It turns out I have over 30 Rifts books!

    The newly published books have been pretty awful, but the original dozen or so were mostly excellent (Main book, source book, Vampire Kingdoms, Mercenaries, Triax, Coalition, etc, etc).

    Sadly, Palladium HAS to go bankrupt sooner or later. I'll occasionally buy a book (<1/year) for casual reading, but they definitely aren't moving them like they used to.

  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I blame the boot of CJ Carella. As much as his stuff was insanely unbalanced, he knew how to fill a world book with crazy awesome flavor. He could turn it to 11 practically on command, and that was an amazing talent when it came to RIFTS.

    Tycho wrote:
    [skyknyt's writing] is like come kind of code that, when comprehended, unfolds into madness in the mind of the reader.
    PSN: skyknyt, Steam: skyknyt, Blizz: skyknyt#1160
  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2015
    After selling some more off (man, the market on these things has *tanked* in the last decade, I remember getting 1/2 to full price back for them when I sold off most of the collection) a while back, I'm down to 14 Palladium books myself. 6 Rifts, 2 Rifters (9 and 9 1/2), 1 Nightbane, and 5 Robotech. Unlikely as it is that I'll ever actually play it again, most of those either tie into a property I love (Robotech) or have sentimental connections (bought as gifts and/or tied to characters I played for years, one of whom is where this forum handle came from, actually).

    As for CJ Carella, I was never much of a fan. Nightbane are just about the most grossly overpowered things in their setting that doesn't have the word "God" or "Cosmo" appended to it, and the South America world books might as well have had "OMG IT'S OVER 9000" written in subscript between each page. Dude didn't meet a weapon he couldn't add a x10 multiplier to the damage for and call it a day.

    Like, I get that Rifts is essentially 'mashed up flights of fancy: the RPG', but those books just got silly. "Oh yeah, and what if there were flechette cannons and Velociraptor power armour and amulets that made people nearly unstoppable fire gods and..."

    I had a buddy that lived on the most overpowered shit the GM would allow him to bring/play, and Carella was basically his spirit animal. Which is fine in the right group/party, but Rifts can be hard enough to run without a player actively seeking to break the system outright.

    Forar on
    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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