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Questions regarding MMORPGs.
Sheep
Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
((( Hope this isn't too vague of a topic. )))
I'm looking into experiencing an MMORPG for the first time in nearly a decade. I quit playing Ultima Online, moved to Dransik, and quit all together after losing interest in PC gaming in general.
So, now I'm interested in giving them another go, and I'm looking at three specific ones.
World of Warcraft (natch...)
Dungeons and Dragons Online
Final Fantasy XI
I'm really on the fence on which one I'd prefer to flush my money down. First of all, I've played all three Warcraft RTS' and didn't really give a damn about any of them. I was always a Starcraft man. Any way, I'm reluctant about DDO because of the low level cap and the games dodgy interpretation of the source material and the subsequent beefing up of enemies (5000 hit point bosses?).
Currently I'm leaning more towards Final Fantasy XI. Lots of character classes that I'm familiar with, and I'm generally more comfortable with the game. However, I don't know if the three systems can play together (PS2, 360, PC), how populated and popular the game world is, etc.
So, does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions they can impart unto me? Learn me somethin...
I'm looking into experiencing an MMORPG for the first time in nearly a decade. I quit playing Ultima Online, moved to Dransik, and quit all together after losing interest in PC gaming in general.
So, now I'm interested in giving them another go, and I'm looking at three specific ones.
World of Warcraft (natch...)
Dungeons and Dragons Online
Final Fantasy XI
I'm really on the fence on which one I'd prefer to flush my money down. First of all, I've played all three Warcraft RTS' and didn't really give a damn about any of them. I was always a Starcraft man. Any way, I'm reluctant about DDO because of the low level cap and the games dodgy interpretation of the source material and the subsequent beefing up of enemies (5000 hit point bosses?).
Currently I'm leaning more towards Final Fantasy XI. Lots of character classes that I'm familiar with, and I'm generally more comfortable with the game. However, I don't know if the three systems can play together (PS2, 360, PC), how populated and popular the game world is, etc.
So, does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions they can impart unto me? Learn me somethin...
Sheep on
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But that's only my personal opinion. I think WoW is a much, much better game. I haven't played DDO.
Well, it's not. Its the one hundred and forty fucking hours to grind nameless generic mobs to even get a glimpse of the steaming pile of shit, which of course is then taken from you.
So in my words, while playing FFIX you can't wait to get to the enormous turd. It's the metaphorical brown light at the end of the tunnel.
Ive been playing EVE and woW for a while, I wouldnt consider any other MMOs on par with them.
See, I had friends that played the fuck out of Everquest. I looked at it, and thought, "meh". Really. Couldn't name anything particularly wrong with it, just didn't strike my fanciful nature.
That being said, Be prepared for it to take a long long time to reach the "end game" in FFXI. Character upkeep is quite time consuming, especially once you have a good amount of extra jobs unlocked.
Be prepared to devote lots of time to resource collecting/selling and/or craft skills, because once you reach the mid levels the availablility of parties really slows down. You will want something to do for those hours it sometimes takes to get into an exp group.
As for the intermixing of platforms... everyone plays on the same servers. JP, NA, PC, X-Box, PS2... Everyone is mixed together.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
This is not correct.
This is also not correct.
I can sorta agree with this
Losing some is common, losing all is quite rare.
I can agree with this too.
There are ways around this.
Sure, if you are incapable of learning new things. I actually prefer the FFXI setup.
I almost never use the mouse, so I can't really say. I know it is slower if only for the reason that I have to take my hands off the keyboard to use it.
Name a single MMO that isn't like this, if you would.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Money, as I remember it, is very hard to earn without a profession, and professions cost alot of money and alot of time. The interface is clunky, wether or not you prefer it. I learned it, and I hated it. As for that last comment, I didn't find the gameplay engaging at all. No strategy involved, it was just "Press 1 every 10 seconds, press 2 on occasion." At least in WoW I can move around and use different abilities depending on the situation.
Just stay away from it. WoW really is the best modern MMO, but it is terribly addicting (moreso than any other MMO I've played.) Stay away from WoW if you can't limit your gameplay sessions (ask anyone in Obsidian Spur-- I never level up. It's because I limit my time in the game and, you know, do other things with my life.)
Just, please. No FFXI. Do they even have a trial of that game yet? Or would a trial just let people see for themselves on how much they shouldn't ever play that goddamn game?
Really if none of those interest you a whole bunch and you don't have any friends to play with then just forget it and save your money.
FFXI is absolutely disgusting and should be avoided at all costs.
I never asked for this!
FFXI is fuck awful. Stay away at all costs.
Ragnarok Online
It's system friendly
Character Builds are pretty wide open
The item list is HUGE
Very large monster database
The interface is pretty simple and straight forward
It's cute little anime.
WoW is good. Period. It takes all the good things about MMO's and slaps them together. Blizzard, as always, does a fantastic job with the game. Unfortunately it's not for the "casual" player. For 15.00 a month, with the grinding past level 20, it kinda takes dedication.
However, the class system is very nice, lots of skills, love the sub skills (crafting/alchemy/etc)
D&D is sluggish. I am not a huge fan of the D&D system myself so that is just my take on it. It feels... dirty. Hard to explain so my opinion on that game isn't very valid.
Never played FF11 because I heard it sucked total ass and all i've ever heard about was the grind. Oh the grind!
I don't know why people bought them, rich or stupid, but it sure was beneficial to me.
If you want check out the new MMORPG subforum. There are several active threads there that can give you an idea about what MMOs PAers are playing.
I can't even play it for free these days, it's just so mind-numbing. And I loved the game originally.
To be accurate RO is only good if you have at least 1 other person to play with. It's a boring mess if you are alone but if you have at least 1 friend playing its a blast.
And if you just want to get in on a mmorpg for no real reason then maybe you should think twice. Chances are you will regret it later. But if you want a taste of mmorpging go pick up .hack//GU Volume 1.
[spoiler:b206803c2d]The World is not a real mmorpg. But I love GU so hard.. such an awesome game..[/spoiler:b206803c2d]
I never asked for this!
The Bad
Experience parties are a huge part of the game. You will more than likely spend most of your time grinding out levels, and if you're seriously averse to the "levelling up" mechanic, FFXI is not for you. If you pick a profession that is incapable of soloing, or at least incapable of doing something productive while you wait for a party, you the wait for experience parties could drive you insane. This can be remedied by playing a "high demand" job, such as Bard, Red Mage or Ninja. Waiting for a party also isn't much of a problem if you're fairly confident in your knowledge of the game mechanics and are capable of putting together a party yourself.
It takes a lot of time to accomplish anything in FFXI. Some of this is down to the game design, such as Chocobo NPCs only being in cities and some towns, along with only being present at three of the six teleport points, making travel times problematic if your party is spread out. Some is simply down to the playerbase. A lot of people are more than happy to make the rest of the party wait while they undergo preparations that should have been done before they put their party flag up. Square seems to be working on fixing the first issue, by allowing people to raise their own Chocobos and call them anywhere on the map once a day, and by placing teleports all over the new Empire of Aht Urhgan. The second is simply what happens when you put lazy fucks and grouping-oriented gameplay together.
As previously mentioned, the game's pretty unforgiving. If you don't know a monster aggros to sound and it attacks you when you're on your own, you are probably dead. Then you either have to suck up some experience loss and learn from your mistake, or put up with a seriously pissed off party. Look up absolutely everything you may need to know beforehand if you are in a party. Being "adventurous" is fine when you're on your own, but when you're with five other people you are expected to know your stuff and adhere to established rules.
The game fucking sucks until you get a job to level 30. Then you can start on the incredible Chains of Promathia expansion, which has missions at "level caps" in increments of ten, from lv30 to uncapped. Chains of Promathia missions are very fun indeed, as every player, no matter how "uber", is bumped down to the strength of the area and their fellow players, and the story is very good for an MMO. If you're up for challenge, Chains of Promathia will gladly kick your arse all over the shop, with some areas being fiendishly difficult and the many boss fights are always stacked against your favour. I present Chains of Promathia as a perfect example of what an MMO should be. Unfortunately, you have to through a lot to get at it.
Then, the game is simply seesaws between "acceptable" (experience parties), "good" (missions and boss fights) and "fucking wonderful" (Chains of Promathia) until level 50, when you can finally play in the Empire of Aht Urhgan. Then it beats the shit out of everything on the market.
The Good
The combat system can be very involving with the right job. Of course you'll get bored playing a Monk! All you do is auto-attack! Square is actively listening to the playerbase. Thousands of bots and cheats get banned frequently, the economy is fixed, almost everything a player needs is affordable with only the tiniest bit of effort, the Job system means that a lot of the "veteran" playerbase is levelling new jobs in the lowbie areas, so there's always someone to party with, and they usually know their stuff. Experience loss is still there, though it has been severely reduced (no longer 10%). Chocobo breeding has been implemented, and you can ride your Chocobo if you please. Lots of items have been changed to be untradable and unstackable, so people don't camp monsters once they have their item. There are also free items that raise the amount of experience you gain if you can only play casually, granting a +50% experience bonus for 3000exp and recharging once every day. The job system is flexible and for most jobs there are a myriad of secondaries you can use, each with their own dramatically different playstyle.
But these are all little things. There's more, but I shan't bore myself going into that. I'll talk about what really excites me, and why I believe FFXI has yet to be topped.
Boss fights. Do you love boss fights? I love boss fights. FFXI has loads of boss fights. These are typically level capped, and the good ones start at lv30. They're quite intensive for what is generally considered to be a macro-driven game, and the rewards for these fights are fantastic. Though given their difficulty the playerbase at large would rather grind experience the "normal" way, with a group of friends you can do boss fights very often. I'll detail the variations below.
Nation Missions (Base Final Fantasy XI) (Lv25-75)
Progress through your nation of alliegance's storyline. These fights are usually uncapped and, with a few exceptions, not in an instanced areas. As such, they aren't the greatest, but the story of your nation is very good (...for an MMO). All three nations learn of the Shadow Lord's quest to conquer Vana'diel, as well as the story behind him, and get to defeat him at around lv50. Bastokers learn more about the Galka, their exile from their homeland, and the racism that runs unchecked through Bastok, as Humes take hold of the upper echelons of power while Galka are left to work the mines. Windurstians learn of their nation's history and of Fenrir, the summoned creature that saved their land from destruction, and of the fate of the Tarutaru who controlled it. San d'Orians get stuck up their own arses and bang on about how much better they are than everyone else.
Rise of the Zilart (lv50-75)
Again, typically uncapped fights, but in instanced arenas. You must "complete" the base game to unlock this expansion. Two figures proclaiming to be from a race known as the Zilart have appeared after the defeat of the Shadow Lord and unveil their plans to destroy Vana'diel outright. You do some things that would change the state of Vana'diel completely, killing some very high-profile people, gain access to the heavens themselves, and thwart the Zilartians' plans from the heart of their own land.
Chains of Promathia Missions (lv30-75)
Lots of level-capped areas and level-capped boss fights. Very difficult missions, which require a lot of strategy and *gasp* skill. The difficulty and nature of the expansion (it "gimps" your character, so you can't overpower enemies with your loluber equipment) has led a lot of people, especially those in the "endgame" arena, to decry the expansion. Don't listen to them, they suck without their grind and ridiculous equipment.
You must investigate a phenomenon known only as the Emptiness, rediscover the lost city of Tavnazia and, ultimately, prevent the re-awakening of Promathia, a God wishing to wipe Vana'diel from existence. The Wyrmking, Bahamut, makes an appearance and seems to have a vested interest in the destruction of Vana'diel.
Call of the Wyrmking (lv75)
Requires the completion of both Rise of the Zilart and Chains of Promathia. Bahamut is either impressed with your skill or seriously ticked off with you. Whichever it is, he challenges you to take him down along with his allies, every single lv80+ Wyrm in the game, in an instanced area. I just had to include this because it's seriously shit-hard, and everyone who says FFXI isn't difficult can choke on this section of the storyline. Fucking hell.
Along with Bahamut's challenge, enemies past are attempting to escape the Emptiness and return to Vana'diel. Are you a bad enough dude to beat them again and wrap up the final section of Vana'diel's story?
Empty Notorious Monsters (lv30-75)
Requires Chains of Promathia. This is a series of infinately replayable, and very difficult, boss fights in the Chains of Promathia level-capped, instanced areas. The rewards are very rare items and experience points, and dying while attempting these fights incurs no penalty. A pleasant alternative to "traditional" experience grinding. There are, to my knowledge, about a dozen ENMs, and you can attempt every one of them once every five days. This is how I spend most my time.
Limbus (lv75)
Requires Chains of Promathia. It's like Resident Evil 4's Mercenaries, but in FFXI. Enter a level-capped dungeon with a strict time limit, and ascend the dungeon defeating everything in your path as quickly as possible. Grab chests to extend your time in the dungeon and refresh the timers on two-hour job abilities. The more time extensions you get, the longer you can stay, and the more prizes you can get!
Burning Circles (lv20-75)
When you defeat monsters of approximately your level, there's a small chance you get Beastmen Seals or Kindred Seals, untradable items. Trade these for a one-shot opportunity at the many instanced, level-capped fights throughout Vana'diel. Rewards are massive gilz. These fights aren't just powerful monsters in the middle of the arenas; there are often neat tricks and gimmicks that make these fights unique amongst what other MMOs offer.
Assault (lv50-75)
Requires Treasures of Aht Urhgan. Very casual-friendly rapid assaults on Beastmen strongholds. Grab a party of between three-six people (depends on the Assault you choose), get teleported to the stronghold for free from the Assault center, and beat the shit out of everything in a level-capped, instanced area. Each assault takes between ten to thirty minutes to complete, and you can play three of them every day. Your rewards are Assault Points, which can be traded for seriously good equipment. There are about fifty or so missions, with promises from S-E to expand the mission list frequently, ranging from stealing treasure to slaughtering as many laughably weak monsters as you can in as short a time as possible.
Besieged (All levels; realistically lv50-75 for healers and lv60-75 for everyone else)
Requires Treasures of Aht Urhgan. Not sure if this counts as a boss fight, but oh well. Depending on the success of players' Assault missions and their attempts to subvert Beastman control by destroying landmarks in their strongholds, three tribes of Beastmen train and prepare for an attack on Al Zahbi, the heart of the Empire of Aht Urhgan! Training progress and recommended objectives can be seen at any time using the map command. When the Beastmen have completed their Training, players are informed of their estimated strength and numbers (ranges from lv1 [it'll be over in ten minutes] to lv6 [hundreds of people are going to die, and it'll be great]) and requested to take up arms to defend Al Zahbi. The city gates are locked down and brave adventurers can attempt to repel the marching forces (they actually march from their stronghold to Al Zahbi, and players can intercept them) before they reach the city. Should they fail, Beastmen rampage through Al Zahbi and hundreds of players must throw themselves at the invaders, attempting to kill their Generals, before they reach the Palace and steal the Astral Candescence, a holy artifact that gives Aht Urhgan its prosperity. Should players help succeed, the Empire gives hands out points that can be traded for goodies and players get an experience bonus and automatic MP regeneration while on the continent. Should they fail, players must attack the Beastmen and liberate the Candescence.
One of the Generals, Medusa takes around 500 people to take down.
Salvage (lv75)
Requires Treasures of Aht Urhgan. Players can trade points from successful Assaults for entry to any of the four cursed ruins below Aht Urhgan in an instanced setting. This is the latest addition to FFXI. Players have one hour to explore the ruins, unearthing valuable artifacts and the most powerful armour in the game. On entry to the Ruins, you lose your subjob, all your equipment, your magic, your job abilities and all your stats are severely lowered. You unlock abilities by defeating foes and recieving temporary items that unlock said ability or item slot. Groups must strategise and decide who gets what unlocked and in what order. Typically, players can only expect to have a handful of things unlocked, as groups must race to the centre of the ruins to impossibly difficult automatons, left by a mysterious race of people.
I'm all out of typing, and have things to get on with. If anyone wants me to talk about FFXI, and how dramatically it has changed recently, I would be happy to oblige. I have played EVE. I have played Warcraft. I have played D&D and Guild Wars and City of Heroes. Not one of them has what FFXI offers. And that's why it has all my
I have however found that the community is better. If thats something that means a lot - I think its at least got that over WoW (unless you already know players)
You can get to level 10 on a Saturday it you try hard. For 11 through 20, I would give it 2 4-hour play sessions per level, just to be on the safe side. I mean, it is Valkrum dunes after all.
20 through 24 is in Qufim island. Still get some newbishness there, so I would expect 4 to 6hours per level. 26 through 30 is in Kahzam, and by that time people have thier stuff in order so I would give it 4 hours per level.
There are however some major stopping points you have to consider. Leading up to level 18 everyone starts collecting support job quest items, which could go smoothly, or it could add hours onto the total.
At level 20 people usually break for the Chocobo quest. That takes several game days to complete, but you could put it off untill you go to Jeuno for Qufim island anyway.
And then everyone really has to stop to get the "Kazham keys". That can take quite a while, if you don't secure higher level help. And you can't get into Kahzam without them, unless you want to spend a boatload of Gil that you probably don't have.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
That said, the learning curve is straight up. If you stick with it, it pays off though. The PvP is absolutely amazing, and the economy is almost entirely player run.
Also, having the largest capitol ships take 1 person to fully crew bothers me.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Either way, the ship is your avatar in the game.
For people who say it's too hard to make money in FFXI, I would like to say I made well over a million in cash, not counting my luxury gear, with just 30 minutes to an hour of work a day, if that. Oh and I only had one craft and it was only a few levels higher than 30.
FFXI isn't extremely hard, it just presents challenege where WoW has spoiled everyone.
Yup. Capsuleers (players) use an advanced technology which hardwires you into your ship. Frigates just need the pilot with this tech, while the larger ships have large numbers of anonymous crew. I think Bri's point is that there's only one player per ship, which is true, but while multi-player capships sounds good, it's hard to implement in a useful way (and yes, I know Allegiance does it, but that's a different kind of game).
As to the avatars thing, yes, it's a known issue that many people have, and CCP are working on "walking in stations", partly to address this and partly to build tech for their WoD MMO.
Anyway. Of the MMOs you listed I'd say play WoW. I think FFXI and D&Donline is crap. FFXI is too bland, too much of a grind, and most of the game is just watching auto-attack if you pick a melee class. D&D online, coming from someone who actually plays D&D just couldn't deliver the goods, I'd rather just play D&D. WoW is fun for a while, but I got bored of the high-end game pretty fast. Leveling up with friends was great though, really epic shit, and we still have moments we all remember and laugh about.
Of all MMOs I'd recomend EvE though. I dunno, if I am paying this monthly fee and investing so many hours into a game, I feel I deserve to have a tangible impact on the universe, and EvE gives me that. Also, because EvE skills train in real time, whether you are logged on or not, I can without hesitation say yes to going to dinseyland all day and not in the least bit feel like I am being unproductive in EvE.
Think about what a huge difference that is from WoW and decide whether you want to make that kind of commitment to a game. In the FFXI I played you could not sit down and play for an hour and expect to make any progress. I don't know what kind of changes they've made over the last couple of years but back then if you didn't have 4-5 hours at a time to kill the game was not for you.
I'll agree that FFXI had atmosphere. It had some decent questlines, good environments and music... It could have been immersive.
As far as everything else in the game goes, it's the complete opposite of WoW (and many other current MMO's, at least from what I've played). It is extremely difficult to accomplish anything of worth in FFXI unless you've got solid blocks of hours to sit at the computer and play. It takes hours to farm items, it takes hours to grind XP, and it can take even more time just to get into a group (which you NEED to do to fight anything that will garner you XP).
If I'm paying to play your game, it should be entirely up to me how much time I can devote to playing, and still be able to experience the game as it is meant to be.
As far as WoW goes, you can hit max level, explore the entire world, and even get through most of the level 1-50 dungeons without sitting down for more than a couple of hours, if you have a decent group. The only things that require even close to a comparable timesink as FFXI are the high level raid dungeons, and while it's nice, it's still just a small percentage of the game you'd be missing out on if you choose not to raid.
It's been a while since I played FFXI (Chains of Promethea wasn't even out yet when I quit), but that game left such a bad taste in my mouth that I would never go back, even if I heard nothing but rave reviews about it now. But as it is, all I'm hearing is the same shit that was wrong with it when I played.
sketchyblargh / Steam! / Tumblr Prime
I'll take your word for it, but when I was playing, Crystals didn't get you all that much cash (at least most of them... IIRC, higher level ones like Dark or whatever got you more than your basic Fire, Earth, etc.).
The real money was in rare items that were dropped by rare monsters, which were all camped by Japanese players who had timers, down to a science so they could farm all these items and sell them on the Auction House.
sketchyblargh / Steam! / Tumblr Prime
To clarify:
- Hours, sometimes even days to find a group
- Some jobs (e.g. monk, dragoon) are viewed as pariahs, and have an even more difficult time finding a group
- 60+ levels of fighting nothing but crabs, because they're weak to the most powerful magic bursts/skill chains.
- Most job/subjob combinations just don't work.
- Enormous world that's all but impossible to explore because taking three steps without a tank to hold aggro and a white/red mage to heal you will result in your death.
- Even if you could travel, you'll find the overwhelming majority of the world is empty, because everyone's clustered in the zones with crabs.
- Most classes have an impossible time soloing.
- When you finally do get a group, you do nothing but kill crabs, until 2 pulls later, your tank has to leave, and you wind up waiting hours more to find one. Then you get one, and it's a ninja that runs out of powder within 5 minutes. So you have to find another. Then the red mage gets bored and quits, and the whole group disbands.
To summarize: FFXI isn't a game, it's a god damned job; punishment in digital form.You... You bastard. Did you return to the game and not tell me? Because if so, it would be great to meet up again in game.
FFXI was just ruled out for me. On another forum that I frequent, there were maybe a dozen or so people that actively played it, but this was a few years back.
I suppose I'll check into WoW. However, I picked up a copy of Civ 4, so... you know... I may just stick with it. :winky:
WoW had a free 10 day trial too if you want to see if it is for you.