Well, considering that most game patches are for fixing multiplayer problems or adding in DLC hooks, it's actually only useful for a stupidly tiny amount of people and only for like 3 games at that
More than that. There are games like Uncharted and Tomb Raider: Underworld that had Trophy patches, games like Bayonetta that had performance patches, and games like Ridge Racer 7 that had a patch to enable 3D mode. Burnout Paradise added Trophies and a ton of free content, Gran Turismo 5 Prologue had multiple patches to better the physics and add more cars. Ghostbusters had a patch to increase the game's display resolution.
Holtz's lawyer is attempting to get the lawsuit dismissed. First for lack of venue. (Why are they suing in California when Holtz lives in New Jersey?) And second, the party bringing suit has nothing to do with the hardware. The following is a snippet of the filing.
In the present case, SCEA cannot demonstrate that Mr. Hotz's activity could even arguably be construed as expressly aimed at California. To the contrary, the sole alleged activity in this action involves Mr. Hotz-- who is located in New Jersey-- purportedly improperly accessing portions of his own Playstation computer-- which is also located in New Jersey. The Playstation computer is not made by SCEA. It is made by Sony Inc. which is a Japanese corporation.
...That's right, I totally spaced that SCEA doesn't, in fact, make the PS3 at all. They are the American licensing and marketing subsidiary. What a neat take...
Yeah, it's a clever line of lawyering bullshit (it's true, but all lawyers are weasels even if they're telling the truth:P) that won't stick most likely because SCEA will just bury it under money.
Xeddicus on
"For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
...That's right, I totally spaced that SCEA doesn't, in fact, make the PS3 at all. They are the American licensing and marketing subsidiary. What a neat take...
Sony's Silo Culture bites them in the ass yet again?
Are the hardware and the firmware developed by two separate portions of Sony? That might complicate things on their end immensely.
No the firmware is made by SCEI as well. That's why it takes such a intolerable amount of time for a demanded feature to be implemented. The software shoots down SCEI to the subsitaries, and then demand is shot up the chain, translated into Japanese, implemented, translated back, and then shot down the pike again.
It's why it too almost 4 years to get a sane text entry system for XMB.
Yeah, it's a clever line of lawyering bullshit (it's true, but all lawyers are weasels even if they're telling the truth:P) that won't stick most likely because SCEA will just bury it under money.
I got this image in my head of Sony literally dropping piles of money on the courthouse, preventing defending council from entering
Yeah, it's a clever line of lawyering bullshit (it's true, but all lawyers are weasels even if they're telling the truth:P) that won't stick most likely because SCEA will just bury it under money.
I got this image in my head of Sony literally dropping piles of money on the courthouse, preventing defending council from entering
First they use something to turn the defendants upside down and shake all the money out of their pockets.
Xeddicus on
"For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
I know you are all on Pins and needles for an update...
Sony counter filed today. The upshot is they want accelerated discovery before the judge considers dropping the Temporary Retaining Order (TRO) for lack of venue. Basically they are saying, "We understand the jusidiction is a concern, but before you look at that issue, we would like to very quickly gut Mr. Holtz of evidence first so we can start building our case."
It's a bit of a delay tactic, they want to shim in discovery right away and keep the judge from looking at other issues. It was the constant barrage of discovery requests that took down Bleem so this is pretty much their M.O.
In the red corner, GeoHot's lawyer submitted a counterfiling with the following points.
1) The hearings are set to start in March, this is much too long and expensive to wait for and would like it moved to Feb 9th
2) He defines that just because something is not authorized, Section 1201 doesn't kick in as an illegal circumvention device if there is no copyrighted work that is being circumvented. In the words of the filing
"Unauthorized access" is not "illegal access." Circumvention of technology, even when unauthorized, is not illegal when it does not regard copyrighted works. Information not protected by copyright is not protected merely because it is behind an anti-circumvention barrier. Thus, the Injunction is overbroad because Mr. Hotz is restrained from "publishing . . . any information . . . or other material" without regard to whether that information is protected by copyright, a prerequisite to anti-circumvention protection.
That's all I got for today.
halkun on
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
I think I understand your context, but what is "discovery" more precisely. I don't speak legalese.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
ok, I don't think i understand what these "keys" that GeoHot released do. Are they essentially keys that just let you run whatever software you want on the PS3? Is that the gist of it?
ok, I don't think i understand what these "keys" that GeoHot released do. Are they essentially keys that just let you run whatever software you want on the PS3? Is that the gist of it?
Pretty much. They are the "keys" that Sony puts into licensed software, to "unlock" the PS3 and allow them to run
2007 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 46364 (C.D. Cal. 2007), a copyright infringement action, at issue was whether the defendant, an Internet website operator, had a duty to preserve data stored on his website's servers in random access memory. (RAM is temporary memory, as opposed to permanent memory stored on a computer's hard drive.) The defendant asserted he was not obligated to preserve the data because: (1) the temporary data was not under his control; (2) obtaining the data would be unduly burdensome; and (3) handing such data over to the plaintiff would violate his website users' privacy rights. Ultimately, the court ordered the defendant to preserve and produce the RAM data and to mask the users' IP addresses to protect their privacy. However, it did not sanction the defendant or order him to pay the plaintiff's litigation costs. It reasoned that the lack of precedents regarding discovery requirements of RAM data failed to provide the defendant with sufficient notice that RAM data was discoverable. However, this case signals to future litigants that RAM data may have to be preserved for litigation.
Such complete bullshit
If I remember correctly, even though it reads this way, it is not the intention and something else was going on with this case completely, and in the end what was asked was pretty legit. This is like the mcdonalds coffee case of the electronics/software lawsuit community. "break out da terrabitz0rs" is the new "olol spill coffee get billions" and are both innacurate interpretations (although due to different reasons)
Edit: I admit that I am not providing source links on interpretations on what the ruling actually meant, so Ill just remove the post if that is such a huge issue. I just see this kind of thing alot and its a pet peeve.
It's the master key that is used to create keys. Once you get the master key, the PS3 can't tell the difference between the game keys Sony makes and the ones generated by non licensed developers. Sony can't change the master key because it will invalidate all they key generated so far.
They are planning to subpoena various internet sites, including PSX-SCENE, YouTube, Twitter, PayPal and Slashdot in an attempt to locate new defendants such as Cantero, Peter, Bushing, Segher, hermesEOL, kmeaw, Waninkoko, grafchokolo and kakaroto.
EDIT: Let me add some commentary. The developers that Sony is trying to find and sue aren't even all in the United States. SCEA has no power outside the country and their DMCA takedown notices are null everywhere but the US. One Norwegian git repository already refused to take down mirrors of some work that was already taken down by Github. I can't really tell but these moves put Sony seeming really desperately trying to contain information and scare people, which is probably just creating a huge Streissand snowball effect.
harvest on
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
what on earth is a streissand snowball. google tells me nothing.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
The Streissand Effect is a term for how the Internet responds to censorship by reporting on the newsworthy and futile attempt at censorship, which in the process defeats the censorship attempt by spreading the censored item all across the net.
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
If Sony loses the ability to license their software, they will pull the PS3 from the market. They are doing everything they can to keep that from happening.
Ooh wow, they're subpoenaing Kakaroto, any chance him and Vegeta will stop galavanting about the cosmos fighting dragons and things long enough to show up in court
If Sony loses the ability to license their software, they will pull the PS3 from the market. They are doing everything they can to keep that from happening.
It's past time for the next generation anyway. Let them burn.
Xeddicus on
"For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
If Sony loses the ability to license their software, they will pull the PS3 from the market. They are doing everything they can to keep that from happening.
You really think that could happen? Because they aren't going to stop this.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
It seems reasonable that they could do what Nintendo has done: start releasing consoles that fix this vulnerability, but continue to support older consoles.
mspencer on
MEMBER OF THE PARANOIA GM GUILD
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
It seems reasonable that they could do what Nintendo has done: start releasing consoles that fix this vulnerability, but continue to support older consoles.
my understanding is that they cant fix it without making every PS3 game in existance right now unplayable.
If Sony loses the ability to license their software, they will pull the PS3 from the market. They are doing everything they can to keep that from happening.
You really think that could happen? Because they aren't going to stop this.
I could see them using this as an extra reason to jump into the next gen sooner (other reasons being Move failing to relaunch the PS3 like Kinect did 360). I don't see them removing the PS3 straight away, but I could see them bringing in the PS4 at the end of 2012.
If Sony loses the ability to license their software, they will pull the PS3 from the market. They are doing everything they can to keep that from happening.
You really think that could happen? Because they aren't going to stop this.
I could see them using this as an extra reason to jump into the next gen sooner (other reasons being Move failing to relaunch the PS3 like Kinect did 360). I don't see them removing the PS3 straight away, but I could see them bringing in the PS4 at the end of 2012.
However, that does bring up an obvious conclusion - it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to do back-compatibility with PS3 games on the PS4 without leaving a gaping hole for hackers... and launching first without even some amount of BC (the 360 at least had many of the top-tier games) will be a very interesting test of how much first adopters are willing to put up with
Especially if MS decides not to follow suit, most third-parties won't go all out making exclusive PS4 games that can't be ported to the 360, which would leave first-party stuff as the only advantage to upgrading
If Sony loses the ability to license their software, they will pull the PS3 from the market. They are doing everything they can to keep that from happening.
So in order to stop themselves from losing possible revenue, you think they will forcibly take significant revenue losses?
Yeah, call me crazy but there is a 0% chance Sony will pull the PS3 from retail.
Maybe possibly very unlikely stop making new PS3's?
If Sony loses the ability to license their software, they will pull the PS3 from the market. They are doing everything they can to keep that from happening.
You really think that could happen? Because they aren't going to stop this.
Without the licensing revenue, Sony will start losing money on the PS3 again. They are terribly expensive to make. What kills them, however, are overhead costs. The cost of the PS3 is subsidized by software, not only the consumer buying games, but the licensing and renting of the dev kits is a huge revenue stream. The PS3 is also subsidized by advertisements with the system itself (home and psn) and to a lesser extent blu-ray purchases.
If there is a constant, systemic loss of revenue there would be absolutely no reason for them to continue to make the product. This is not from piracy, but loss of supply side (developer) and demand side (consumer) revenue.
If I were to make a youtube video tomorrow of a PS3 running Android with the market app running on it, Sony would have a fit. To top it off, "Angry Birds" is free from android marketplace. I can GUARANTEE that Sony would have kittens about it. That is what they are absolutely terrified about.
It seems reasonable that they could do what Nintendo has done: start releasing consoles that fix this vulnerability, but continue to support older consoles.
They can't. Once they make a new master key all the old software keys are invalid forever and ever.
halkun on
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
If Sony loses the ability to license their software, they will pull the PS3 from the market. They are doing everything they can to keep that from happening.
You really think that could happen? Because they aren't going to stop this.
Without the licensing revenue, Sony will start losing money on the PS3 again. They are terribly expensive to make. What kills them, however, are overhead costs. The cost of the PS3 is subsidized by software, not only the consumer buying games, but the licensing and renting of the dev kits is a huge revenue stream. The PS3 is also subsidized by advertisements with the system itself (home and psn) and to a lesser extent blu-ray purchases.
If there is a constant, systemic loss of revenue there would be absolutely no reason for them to continue to make the product. This is not from piracy, but loss of supply side (developer) and demand side (consumer) revenue.
If I were to make a youtube video tomorrow of a PS3 running Android with the market app running on it, Sony would have a fit. To top it off, "Angry Birds" is free from android marketplace. I can GUARANTEE that Sony would have kittens about it. That is what they are absolutely terrified about.
It seems reasonable that they could do what Nintendo has done: start releasing consoles that fix this vulnerability, but continue to support older consoles.
They can't. Once they make a new master key all the old software keys are invalid forever and ever.
Are you saying that major developers would stop paying for license kits and just make games that only people who use a hacked firmware can play?
Because I cannot ever see this happening. It would be corporate suicide.
That revenue stream is 100% safe independent of this issue.
Hence, anyone playing those games is pirating. It becomes a heavily pirated console. Their profits would take a loss, a big loss, and they might push for a sooner ps4 or do other things. But it's not quite as catastrophic as you make it sound. Your reasoning is not sound enough to assume they would just up and yank the current hardware.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Yeah, I really doubt there are medium to big name developers now salivating over being able to create PS3 games without having to pay for licensing.
I'm pretty sure it'll turn out to be like every single other homebrew scene out there. Simple programs, games, and ports all coded by basement dwellers. Anything bigger than that, noboby is going to have the guts or business morals to try.
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
Are you saying that major developers would stop paying for license kits and just make games that only people who use a hacked firmware can play?
No... That's the thing. You don't need hacked firmware. Being able to generate your own keys means you can make the software just work out of the box. No one needs to hack anything.
Because I cannot ever see this happening. It would be corporate suicide.
That revenue stream is 100% safe independent of this issue.
Hence, anyone playing those games is pirating.
What games are you talking about? How did you make the logic jump that using software is piracy? I'm not talking about copying games. I'm talking about the Notches of the world making their own indy games for the platform. Have you looked at the requirements to be a licensed developer for the PS3? You need a non-home office with a security system, insurance, published titles, and a million dollars in assets. That's even before you cough up 10 grand for the dev kit.
I'll take the cheap route thank you.
Why would Sony have any say over my copyright anyway if it's my code I'm developing? Because they don't want it running on their machine? Why do you think that console machines are somehow beyond reproach. They are computers, with CPUs, RAM, GPUs and network cards. They aren't some magical fairy fart that was given to us by prophets.
Like I said. What if I ported android to PS3? (Android is open source, the code is here and already has a mips port) That would open a whole new revenue stream for developers who don't need to buy a license from Sony. It will give you an app store independent of SCEA.
So as it stands now, if someone pressed a disc signed with the master code, it would run code on any PS3, modded or not? What if it wasn't a Blu-Ray, and was a DVD?
Posts
That's just from my library alone.
The US legal system: All the justice you can buy!
I have the same problem - you're not alone!
Holtz's lawyer is attempting to get the lawsuit dismissed. First for lack of venue. (Why are they suing in California when Holtz lives in New Jersey?) And second, the party bringing suit has nothing to do with the hardware. The following is a snippet of the filing.
...That's right, I totally spaced that SCEA doesn't, in fact, make the PS3 at all. They are the American licensing and marketing subsidiary. What a neat take...
Platinum FC: 2880 3245 5111
Sony's Silo Culture bites them in the ass yet again?
Are the hardware and the firmware developed by two separate portions of Sony? That might complicate things on their end immensely.
It's why it too almost 4 years to get a sane text entry system for XMB.
I got this image in my head of Sony literally dropping piles of money on the courthouse, preventing defending council from entering
First they use something to turn the defendants upside down and shake all the money out of their pockets.
Sony counter filed today. The upshot is they want accelerated discovery before the judge considers dropping the Temporary Retaining Order (TRO) for lack of venue. Basically they are saying, "We understand the jusidiction is a concern, but before you look at that issue, we would like to very quickly gut Mr. Holtz of evidence first so we can start building our case."
It's a bit of a delay tactic, they want to shim in discovery right away and keep the judge from looking at other issues. It was the constant barrage of discovery requests that took down Bleem so this is pretty much their M.O.
In the red corner, GeoHot's lawyer submitted a counterfiling with the following points.
1) The hearings are set to start in March, this is much too long and expensive to wait for and would like it moved to Feb 9th
2) He defines that just because something is not authorized, Section 1201 doesn't kick in as an illegal circumvention device if there is no copyrighted work that is being circumvented. In the words of the filing
That's all I got for today.
Discovery is the pre-trial gathering of evidence before the actual trial starts. Here is the wiki entry on it.
Pretty much. They are the "keys" that Sony puts into licensed software, to "unlock" the PS3 and allow them to run
If I remember correctly, even though it reads this way, it is not the intention and something else was going on with this case completely, and in the end what was asked was pretty legit. This is like the mcdonalds coffee case of the electronics/software lawsuit community. "break out da terrabitz0rs" is the new "olol spill coffee get billions" and are both innacurate interpretations (although due to different reasons)
Edit: I admit that I am not providing source links on interpretations on what the ruling actually meant, so Ill just remove the post if that is such a huge issue. I just see this kind of thing alot and its a pet peeve.
It's the master key that is used to create keys. Once you get the master key, the PS3 can't tell the difference between the game keys Sony makes and the ones generated by non licensed developers. Sony can't change the master key because it will invalidate all they key generated so far.
http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/sony-expanding-its-case-looking-all-ps3-hackers-79947/
EDIT: Let me add some commentary. The developers that Sony is trying to find and sue aren't even all in the United States. SCEA has no power outside the country and their DMCA takedown notices are null everywhere but the US. One Norwegian git repository already refused to take down mirrors of some work that was already taken down by Github. I can't really tell but these moves put Sony seeming really desperately trying to contain information and scare people, which is probably just creating a huge Streissand snowball effect.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
Streisand Effect.
It's past time for the next generation anyway. Let them burn.
You really think that could happen? Because they aren't going to stop this.
XBL Michael Spencer || Wii 6007 6812 1605 7315 || PSN MichaelSpencerJr || Steam Michael_Spencer || Ham NOØK
QRZ || My last known GPS coordinates: FindU or APRS.fi (Car antenna feed line busted -- no ham radio for me X__X )
my understanding is that they cant fix it without making every PS3 game in existance right now unplayable.
I could see them using this as an extra reason to jump into the next gen sooner (other reasons being Move failing to relaunch the PS3 like Kinect did 360). I don't see them removing the PS3 straight away, but I could see them bringing in the PS4 at the end of 2012.
However, that does bring up an obvious conclusion - it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to do back-compatibility with PS3 games on the PS4 without leaving a gaping hole for hackers... and launching first without even some amount of BC (the 360 at least had many of the top-tier games) will be a very interesting test of how much first adopters are willing to put up with
Especially if MS decides not to follow suit, most third-parties won't go all out making exclusive PS4 games that can't be ported to the 360, which would leave first-party stuff as the only advantage to upgrading
So in order to stop themselves from losing possible revenue, you think they will forcibly take significant revenue losses?
Yeah, call me crazy but there is a 0% chance Sony will pull the PS3 from retail.
Maybe possibly very unlikely stop making new PS3's?
I guess that might happen. Possibly.
Maybe.
Without the licensing revenue, Sony will start losing money on the PS3 again. They are terribly expensive to make. What kills them, however, are overhead costs. The cost of the PS3 is subsidized by software, not only the consumer buying games, but the licensing and renting of the dev kits is a huge revenue stream. The PS3 is also subsidized by advertisements with the system itself (home and psn) and to a lesser extent blu-ray purchases.
If there is a constant, systemic loss of revenue there would be absolutely no reason for them to continue to make the product. This is not from piracy, but loss of supply side (developer) and demand side (consumer) revenue.
If I were to make a youtube video tomorrow of a PS3 running Android with the market app running on it, Sony would have a fit. To top it off, "Angry Birds" is free from android marketplace. I can GUARANTEE that Sony would have kittens about it. That is what they are absolutely terrified about.
They can't. Once they make a new master key all the old software keys are invalid forever and ever.
Are you saying that major developers would stop paying for license kits and just make games that only people who use a hacked firmware can play?
Because I cannot ever see this happening. It would be corporate suicide.
That revenue stream is 100% safe independent of this issue.
Hence, anyone playing those games is pirating. It becomes a heavily pirated console. Their profits would take a loss, a big loss, and they might push for a sooner ps4 or do other things. But it's not quite as catastrophic as you make it sound. Your reasoning is not sound enough to assume they would just up and yank the current hardware.
I'm pretty sure it'll turn out to be like every single other homebrew scene out there. Simple programs, games, and ports all coded by basement dwellers. Anything bigger than that, noboby is going to have the guts or business morals to try.
No... That's the thing. You don't need hacked firmware. Being able to generate your own keys means you can make the software just work out of the box. No one needs to hack anything.
What games are you talking about? How did you make the logic jump that using software is piracy? I'm not talking about copying games. I'm talking about the Notches of the world making their own indy games for the platform. Have you looked at the requirements to be a licensed developer for the PS3? You need a non-home office with a security system, insurance, published titles, and a million dollars in assets. That's even before you cough up 10 grand for the dev kit.
I'll take the cheap route thank you.
Why would Sony have any say over my copyright anyway if it's my code I'm developing? Because they don't want it running on their machine? Why do you think that console machines are somehow beyond reproach. They are computers, with CPUs, RAM, GPUs and network cards. They aren't some magical fairy fart that was given to us by prophets.
Like I said. What if I ported android to PS3? (Android is open source, the code is here and already has a mips port) That would open a whole new revenue stream for developers who don't need to buy a license from Sony. It will give you an app store independent of SCEA.