The complaint was not thrown out, but the judge wanted it amended.
The whole amended complaint was html-ized and viewable here. (Warning, it's a little long)
halkun on
0
Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2011
It is a little long, and it cuts pretty deep. Probably worth the read, if you can handle the legalese on everything.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Geohot being out of the country is a non-issue. The EULA may well be an issue, that's far more interesting news. Halkun, any comments on that? Specifically: if the forum selection clause does hold up, is that only to the extent of complaints arising from the EULA?
Seol on
0
Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2011
There seems to be an issue with the timing on the signing up for the PSN account.
Some are claiming that the hack was published a month before the account was created. If so, then the account is a moot point.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
I haven't read though Sony's EULA, but that going to be the crux of the breech of contract that Sony is litigating over.
Personally, I think EULAs are bullshit. Sadly, they are legal bullshit that has been held up in court. I think that they should be invalid on the fact that it removes the ability to counter offer altogether.
I mean, you have an EULA presented. What's stopping me from closing the EULA display program, replacing the text with my own as a counter offer, with a clause allowing me to agree on behalf on the offer-er and then running the program and pressing "Agree?" I'm sure that action is legally dubious, and will most definitely need be resolved with a lawsuit. The whole EULA thing doesn't pass the "meeting of the minds" prerequisite in my opinion. But there is case law and that is that.
But yea, if Hotz is locked into the EULA, that will be a massive strike against him. Sony will have all the power to call for a summery judgement.
Why is the PSN EULA relevant to the actions unrelated to PSN?
Quoting the personal jurisdiction part from the EULA:
Except as otherwise required by applicable law, both parties submit to personal jurisdiction in California and further agree that any dispute arising from or relating to this Agreement shall be brought in a court within San Mateo County, California.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm curious as to whether that clause there applies purely to disputes arising from the agreement or as a blanket submission to jurisdiction for all disputes between the parties. If it's the former, we could have a situation where Sony has jurisdiction for the breach of EULA complaint but not any of the others, meaning they'd have to be heard in a separate court?
This is only in respect of the jurisdiction issue.
Yeah, but ownership of the PS3 is surely separate from an online service. I've confirmed hundreds of software EULAs over the years, find it somewhat suspect that, should I get sued by AMD for cracking open their CPU, they could invoke the graphics card EULA on my ass.
Regarding the 'hard disc controllers', I believe this is the actual mail sent when TIG (the neutral forensics people) found they were missing (spoiled for size):
All,
We took the drives out of our evidence locker and the evidence bag to image them in their current encrypted state
as stated in the order and agreed to on our phone call yesterday. We have determined that the controller cards
which are screwed onto the hard drives were removed prior to them being given to us. Therefore we are unable
to operate the hard drives in their current state. Keep in mind that we need two days to image these drives as we
have to image two 1TB drives.
I would recommend that Mr. Hotz forward to us immediately both the hard drive controller cards, screws and
anything else he may have including the complete computer system (minus the monitor, keyboard and mouse) so
that we can be prepared to complete the forensic imaging process (both encrypted and un-encrypted).
The drives have been returned to the evidence bag and locker at this time.
Regards,
Mike
Michael Grennier, CFCE, EnCE
TheIntelligenceGroup
That sounds like it's the PCB bolted to a hard disc to me, not a RAID controller - unless there's a later mail I haven't found detailing that?
mattclem on
0
Sirialisof the Halite Throne.Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
Just reading comments on Destructoid and other sites who claimed he "FLED THE COUNTRY OMG" it sounds like people want Geohotz fucking beheaded o_O
and poor poor Sony, the multinational billion dollar company... Who claim you lease your PS3 after paying full price, what the hell ?
Edit: Mad props to Sony's PR team or are people just fucking ignorant ?
Sirialis on
0
Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2011
A little of column A, a little of column B.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
0
The AnonymousUh, uh, uhhhhhh...Uh, uh.Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
The first one, because I refuse to believe people could actually be so fucking retarded.
I don't want to believe people could actually be so fucking retarded.
The Anonymous on
0
Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited March 2011
I didn't want to believe that once either, but there is only so much clubbing over the head by reality I can take and continue to sing tra-la-la with my hands over my ears.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
0
TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
It hurts my mind to read those blog comments. It just makes my brain want to crawl out of my eye sockets and strangle my neck until I can't read them anymore.
Geohotz might be a dick in the way he's handled things, but his case represents our collective interests as consumers. That's just the bottom line. Sony's case in all this represents the corporate privilege to shove whatever they want up the consumer's ass and charge them for it.
Why why why would anyone want to let Sony win this case and set precedent? Particularly after all the plain and obvious legal idiocy that they're using to just bleed Hotz's case to death monetarily?
It hurts my mind to read those blog comments. It just makes my brain want to crawl out of my eye sockets and strangle my neck until I can't read them anymore.
Geohotz might be a dick in the way he's handled things, but his case represents our collective interests as consumers. That's just the bottom line. Sony's case in all this represents the corporate privilege to shove whatever they want up the consumer's ass and charge them for it.
Why why why would anyone want to let Sony win this case and set precedent? Particularly after all the plain and obvious legal idiocy that they're using to just bleed Hotz's case to death monetarily?
Because the vast majority of commenters don't understand what this case is about, and view Hotz as being the representative of piracy and cheat-hacks.
It hurts my mind to read those blog comments. It just makes my brain want to crawl out of my eye sockets and strangle my neck until I can't read them anymore.
Geohotz might be a dick in the way he's handled things, but his case represents our collective interests as consumers. That's just the bottom line. Sony's case in all this represents the corporate privilege to shove whatever they want up the consumer's ass and charge them for it.
Why why why would anyone want to let Sony win this case and set precedent? Particularly after all the plain and obvious legal idiocy that they're using to just bleed Hotz's case to death monetarily?
Because the vast majority of commenters don't understand what this case is about, and view Hotz as being the representative of piracy and cheat-hacks.
Even though he has on numerous occasions said, "I am 100% against piracy and cheat-hacks."
I think a big part of it is we have a huge corporate culture here in America, and that combined with ignorance regarding the way Sony has handled prior cases like this as well as a massive helping of shortsightedness are helping pave the way for a PR win for SCEA. People need to look at this thing and go, "OK. If Sony wins, there will be a huge legal precedent set against reverse engineering, which is actually legal right now. That would essentially make America totally non-competitive in the tech arena. That... would be bad."
How much reverse engineering does Sony itself do? Is it really in their best interests to move towards making that illegal, or are they being just as shortsighted as everyone else?
joshofalltrades on
0
TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
I'm not sure if they're responsible for the way this latest story was reported, but if they are, the Sony PR machine is dastardly. It took a full 24 hours before Joystiq published the response of Hotz' lawyer, even though we knew what he had said within a few hours of the accusations. They also completely leave out the fact that it was the neutral that informed Sony they were derping on the HDD issue, and they omit the statement about donated funds not being used for vacation.
I suppose that when Sony talks, blogs are going to listen no matter what they say. Not so much for people like Hotz.
Comments are as eye gouging as usual. I must be a masochist or something to read them. From now on, whenever Joystiq has an article on this debacle, I'm going to search for pictures of puppies instead.
You know, you guys even warned me. "Don't look at the Joystiq comments!", you said. And here I go, like rubbernecker watching a car accident.
Blah blah blah, I'm tired of hearing about this stupid "Consumer Rights" bullshit!
*sigh*
halkun on
0
TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
That's the exact comment that made me close the window.
Also, something sort of interesting from one of the authors over at Ars Technica. A friend of mine pointed out said author left this comment regarding the HDD issue.
I actually saw the communication between the lawyers and the third-party talking about the hard drives. It was explained quickly, resolved amicably, and then recontextualized by Sony in their official filing. It was a pretty scuzzy move, and seemed to be deliberately misleading.
Sirialisof the Halite Throne.Registered Userregular
edited March 2011
Some of these commenters on various sites really should shut the fuck up, most of them are up in arms about Geohotz taking a vacation "LOL HE IS IN BIG TROUBLE FOR LEAVING COUNTRY HERP DERP" ...
Its a fucking civil case, its not a murder trial he is in court for, seen too many movies ?
I've been sued in a civil case, and if I wasnt "allowed" to take a vacation, I would've gone nuts, it was a simple straight forward case, yet it dragged on for 4-5 years, this case will probably take longer.
I don't have anything against 'owning' your console - you can open it up and turn it into a roomba for all I care but it seems like... I dunno, like hacking or 'jail-breaking' your console is the doorway to piracy. How do you effectively police that? How do you separate wheat (homebrewing community) from chaff (people who just want to pirate games and exploit cheats in multiplayer)? the problem, as it stands now (as best as I understand it) is you can't separate the two.
Reading the comments on just about any website will cause me to rage. I always want to believe that other people aren't that ignorant/illiterate/happy-to-lick-the-boot-heels-of-a-major-corporation, but I also can't convince myself that these people are all paid trolls anymore.
I don't have anything against 'owning' your console - you can open it up and turn it into a roomba for all I care but it seems like... I dunno, like hacking or 'jail-breaking' your console is the doorway to piracy. How do you effectively police that? How do you separate wheat (homebrewing community) from chaff (people who just want to pirate games and exploit cheats in multiplayer)? the problem, as it stands now (as best as I understand it) is you can't separate the two.
If you set up your product's security such that the only way for the console's owner to run their own software is to circumvent all your anti-piracy measures, then they're given no choice but to circumvent your anti-piracy measures. And there are too many talented people with a chip on their shoulder about that sort of thing for it to be a surprise when it happens.
You separate the wheat from the chaff by giving the wheat a homebrew environment.
I'm not getting in another debate with you guys. If you disagree, fine. Keep sticking your head in the sand. There's a reason everyone on just about every forum is acting the way they are and it has nothing at all to do with lack of intelligence or ignorance. You on this forum are not the chosen few.
For those curious about the PSN EULA and forum selection clause:
The wording used indeed relates mostly to disputes concerning the formation and execution of the contract. If that were the only thing going on, then Sony likely could only pursue a matter for breach of contract in the forum that was nominated in the clause.
However, courts (nominally) like to save everyone's time and money (including that of the court itself), and generally will agree to hear other matters that they are capable of exercising jurisdiction over once all the parties involved have shown up. One big reason for this is that if you have multiple concurrent cases going on all over the US, there is a good chance the different courts will be stepping on each others' toes or making conflicting rulings (this is all related to a concept known as comity).
Thus, showing that Hotz agreed to the EULA and it's choice of law / forum selection clause is rather important - even if he did so after the primary events in question, the court may be willing to hear everything else at that point in an effort to simplify matters.
For those curious about the PSN EULA and forum selection clause:
The wording used indeed relates mostly to disputes concerning the formation and execution of the contract. If that were the only thing going on, then Sony likely could only pursue a matter for breach of contract in the forum that was nominated in the clause.
However, courts (nominally) like to save everyone's time and money (including that of the court itself), and generally will agree to hear other matters that they are capable of exercising jurisdiction over once all the parties involved have shown up. One big reason for this is that if you have multiple concurrent cases going on all over the US, there is a good chance the different courts will be stepping on each others' toes or making conflicting rulings (this is all related to a concept known as comity.
Thus, showing that Hotz agreed to the EULA and it's choice of law / forum selection clause is rather important - even if he did so after the primary events in question, the court may be willing to hear everything else at that point in an effort to simplify matters.
Having read the EULA, though, I don't see how it relates to this case unless the PSN was used as part of the reverse-engineering attempts: there are various over-broad interpretations of some clauses that look at first glance to be breaches of the EULA but I can't see how they'd stand up to scrutiny (unless the PS3 was connected to the PSN at the time of an attack). It could end up that the only count for which jurisdiction is established is knocked down relatively easily, but the other counts remain in that court: the EULA being used purely as a foot in the door?
Seol on
0
Sirialisof the Halite Throne.Registered Userregular
I'm not getting in another debate with you guys. If you disagree, fine. Keep sticking your head in the sand. There's a reason everyone on just about every forum is acting the way they are and it has nothing at all to do with lack of intelligence or ignorance. You on this forum are not the chosen few.
Knowing a bit of Sony's track record for abusing the legal system, I'm not sure who is sticking his head in the sand here, are you from Sony Defense Force or something ?
I dont give a shit about Geohotz or his hacks for that matter, none what so ever, I do however care about consumer rights and a fair legal system (...), which yours truly wants to alter in their favour.
I don't have anything against 'owning' your console - you can open it up and turn it into a roomba for all I care but it seems like... I dunno, like hacking or 'jail-breaking' your console is the doorway to piracy. How do you effectively police that? How do you separate wheat (homebrewing community) from chaff (people who just want to pirate games and exploit cheats in multiplayer)? the problem, as it stands now (as best as I understand it) is you can't separate the two.
If you set up your product's security such that the only way for the console's owner to run their own software is to circumvent all your anti-piracy measures, then they're given no choice but to circumvent your anti-piracy measures. And there are too many talented people with a chip on their shoulder about that sort of thing for it to be a surprise when it happens.
You separate the wheat from the chaff by giving the wheat a homebrew environment.
So that, then. I guess as game consoles become more like computers, the expectations go along with them.
I don't have anything against 'owning' your console - you can open it up and turn it into a roomba for all I care but it seems like... I dunno, like hacking or 'jail-breaking' your console is the doorway to piracy. How do you effectively police that? How do you separate wheat (homebrewing community) from chaff (people who just want to pirate games and exploit cheats in multiplayer)? the problem, as it stands now (as best as I understand it) is you can't separate the two.
If you set up your product's security such that the only way for the console's owner to run their own software is to circumvent all your anti-piracy measures, then they're given no choice but to circumvent your anti-piracy measures. And there are too many talented people with a chip on their shoulder about that sort of thing for it to be a surprise when it happens.
You separate the wheat from the chaff by giving the wheat a homebrew environment.
So that, then. I guess as game consoles become more like computers, the expectations go along with them.
Didnt Sony get the PS3 classified as a Personal Computer in order to save tax money in european countries ?
Knowing a bit of Sony's track record for abusing the legal system, I'm not sure who is sticking his head in the sand here, are you from Sony Defense Force or something ?
I dont give a shit about Geohotz or his hacks for that matter, none what so ever, I do however care about consumer rights and a fair legal system (...), which yours truly wants to alter in their favour.
I'm no special fan of Sony, they've pissed me off many times. It's just in my opinion I think they're right this time. That's just my opinion.
I'm not getting in another debate with you guys. If you disagree, fine. Keep sticking your head in the sand. There's a reason everyone on just about every forum is acting the way they are and it has nothing at all to do with lack of intelligence or ignorance. You on this forum are not the chosen few.
Okay.
I'd just like to pint out as you (apparently) leave that geohot isn't being tried in the court of public opinion, and his behavior or volume of rap videos isn't really relevant to anything.
Having read the EULA, though, I don't see how it relates to this case unless the PSN was used as part of the reverse-engineering attempts: there are various over-broad interpretations of some clauses that look at first glance to be breaches of the EULA but I can't see how they'd stand up to scrutiny (unless the PS3 was connected to the PSN at the time of an attack). It could end up that the only count for which jurisdiction is established is knocked down relatively easily, but the other counts remain in that court: the EULA being used purely as a foot in the door?
For the most part, yes. Even if Sony choose to no longer pursue the breach of contract the day after the proper case begins, once they've roped Hotz into a court that is willing to hear the other stuff, that is the place it's all going to happen.
However, whether any court is willing to hear a matter isn't completely cut-and-dried, and there is lots of room for a court to exercise its discretion here - it's just that generally, they will hear anything that they are capable of exercising jurisdiction over if it means keeping all the proceedings relating to a set of events in the same place.
Posts
The whole amended complaint was html-ized and viewable here. (Warning, it's a little long)
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Some are claiming that the hack was published a month before the account was created. If so, then the account is a moot point.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Personally, I think EULAs are bullshit. Sadly, they are legal bullshit that has been held up in court. I think that they should be invalid on the fact that it removes the ability to counter offer altogether.
I mean, you have an EULA presented. What's stopping me from closing the EULA display program, replacing the text with my own as a counter offer, with a clause allowing me to agree on behalf on the offer-er and then running the program and pressing "Agree?" I'm sure that action is legally dubious, and will most definitely need be resolved with a lawsuit. The whole EULA thing doesn't pass the "meeting of the minds" prerequisite in my opinion. But there is case law and that is that.
But yea, if Hotz is locked into the EULA, that will be a massive strike against him. Sony will have all the power to call for a summery judgement.
This is only in respect of the jurisdiction issue.
That sounds like it's the PCB bolted to a hard disc to me, not a RAID controller - unless there's a later mail I haven't found detailing that?
and poor poor Sony, the multinational billion dollar company... Who claim you lease your PS3 after paying full price, what the hell ?
Edit: Mad props to Sony's PR team or are people just fucking ignorant ?
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
I don't want to believe people could actually be so fucking retarded.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Geohotz might be a dick in the way he's handled things, but his case represents our collective interests as consumers. That's just the bottom line. Sony's case in all this represents the corporate privilege to shove whatever they want up the consumer's ass and charge them for it.
Why why why would anyone want to let Sony win this case and set precedent? Particularly after all the plain and obvious legal idiocy that they're using to just bleed Hotz's case to death monetarily?
Even though he has on numerous occasions said, "I am 100% against piracy and cheat-hacks."
I think a big part of it is we have a huge corporate culture here in America, and that combined with ignorance regarding the way Sony has handled prior cases like this as well as a massive helping of shortsightedness are helping pave the way for a PR win for SCEA. People need to look at this thing and go, "OK. If Sony wins, there will be a huge legal precedent set against reverse engineering, which is actually legal right now. That would essentially make America totally non-competitive in the tech arena. That... would be bad."
How much reverse engineering does Sony itself do? Is it really in their best interests to move towards making that illegal, or are they being just as shortsighted as everyone else?
I suppose that when Sony talks, blogs are going to listen no matter what they say. Not so much for people like Hotz.
Comments are as eye gouging as usual. I must be a masochist or something to read them. From now on, whenever Joystiq has an article on this debacle, I'm going to search for pictures of puppies instead.
*sigh*
Also, something sort of interesting from one of the authors over at Ars Technica. A friend of mine pointed out said author left this comment regarding the HDD issue.
Its a fucking civil case, its not a murder trial he is in court for, seen too many movies ?
I've been sued in a civil case, and if I wasnt "allowed" to take a vacation, I would've gone nuts, it was a simple straight forward case, yet it dragged on for 4-5 years, this case will probably take longer.
You separate the wheat from the chaff by giving the wheat a homebrew environment.
GeoHot has done a lot more to damage his public image than Sony has.
my twitter | my youtube
His public image amongst angry young men with anime avatars, yeah.
my twitter | my youtube
The wording used indeed relates mostly to disputes concerning the formation and execution of the contract. If that were the only thing going on, then Sony likely could only pursue a matter for breach of contract in the forum that was nominated in the clause.
However, courts (nominally) like to save everyone's time and money (including that of the court itself), and generally will agree to hear other matters that they are capable of exercising jurisdiction over once all the parties involved have shown up. One big reason for this is that if you have multiple concurrent cases going on all over the US, there is a good chance the different courts will be stepping on each others' toes or making conflicting rulings (this is all related to a concept known as comity).
Thus, showing that Hotz agreed to the EULA and it's choice of law / forum selection clause is rather important - even if he did so after the primary events in question, the court may be willing to hear everything else at that point in an effort to simplify matters.
Knowing a bit of Sony's track record for abusing the legal system, I'm not sure who is sticking his head in the sand here, are you from Sony Defense Force or something ?
I dont give a shit about Geohotz or his hacks for that matter, none what so ever, I do however care about consumer rights and a fair legal system (...), which yours truly wants to alter in their favour.
So that, then. I guess as game consoles become more like computers, the expectations go along with them.
Didnt Sony get the PS3 classified as a Personal Computer in order to save tax money in european countries ?
I'm no special fan of Sony, they've pissed me off many times. It's just in my opinion I think they're right this time. That's just my opinion.
my twitter | my youtube
Okay.
I'd just like to pint out as you (apparently) leave that geohot isn't being tried in the court of public opinion, and his behavior or volume of rap videos isn't really relevant to anything.
For the most part, yes. Even if Sony choose to no longer pursue the breach of contract the day after the proper case begins, once they've roped Hotz into a court that is willing to hear the other stuff, that is the place it's all going to happen.
However, whether any court is willing to hear a matter isn't completely cut-and-dried, and there is lots of room for a court to exercise its discretion here - it's just that generally, they will hear anything that they are capable of exercising jurisdiction over if it means keeping all the proceedings relating to a set of events in the same place.