The other day I pulled off a beautifully executed 3 gate expand into 5 gates + robo, I turned up at his base with a bunch of 1/1 units and about 4 immortals at around the 14 minute mark after denying his expo twice, he raged at me for 4 gating
For me, the way the gold games seem to play out these days, 3 gate expand feels like the safest build to do, especially if you're denied scouting. I'm doing it almost 50% of all games I play ATM.
** edit and I've been getting hallucinated phoenixes for scouting which works really well IMO.
Spaffy on
ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
Steam: adamjnet
0
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
Well what were you thinking warping in those Immortals with your stupid 4gates!!!!
Well what were you thinking warping in those Immortals with your stupid 4gates!!!!
I sent him a polite message saying "I appreciate you're angry, but if you watch the replay I think you'll see that game played out differently than how you think it did."
6 minutes later I got a single word message from him - "Sorry".
i love bigt so much, hes played around 3000 ladder games and still doesnt realise what a pdd does, 3 games in 2 days he just keeps shooting stuff to no avail, losing his whole army and saying "I just dont understand what happened"
Zombie Monkey on
League of Legends - Enzo III
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
Last night I learned that being hammered drops my skill level slightly more than one league.
Sorry Simon, but I think I'll have to drop out of this week's CSL-lite. I have to go to the airport an hour after the starting time, and I need to get ready for that. I could probably play a few games but I don't want to knock someone out then have to forfeit (not like I was going to win anyway). Sorry, I wasn't sure of the time until recently.
So the whole Zerg craze died out, once everyone saw it was hard as balls and went back to Protoss.
Seriously, 8 out of 10 matches I have to play against fucking noobtoss.
Satsumomo on
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FrankoSometimes I really wish I had four feet so I could dance with myself to the drumbeatRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
It is not the reason that 4 gate is easy or hard
It is possible for a terran to beat a4gate with bunkers
and possible for a zerg to win with enough speed zerglings and roaches
but when you PvP you NEED to 4gate. That is why PvP is dumb because you always NEED to 4gate. 2gate robo can never beat 4gate, no protoss build can be a 4gate allin. So Protoss mirror match up just always becomes a game of who gets the best 4gate out, or barring that it is all about cannon rushing or massing cannons
It is not the reason that 4 gate is easy or hard
It is possible for a terran to beat a4gate with bunkers
and possible for a zerg to win with enough speed zerglings and roaches
but when you PvP you NEED to 4gate. That is why PvP is dumb because you always NEED to 4gate. 2gate robo can never beat 4gate, no protoss build can be a 4gate allin. So Protoss mirror match up just always becomes a game of who gets the best 4gate out, or barring that it is all about cannon rushing or massing cannons
That is why PvP is boring
this...is not true. at all.
edit: i don't have time to go into detail since i need to leave for work, but 2gate zealot rushes on small maps beat 4gates every time. with other builds all you need against a 4gate is proper FF placement. depending on the map distance, this can be a bit a dicey, but in no way is the 4gate the be all end all pvp build. not at all.
So the whole Zerg craze died out, once everyone saw it was hard as balls and went back to Protoss.
Seriously, 8 out of 10 matches I have to play against fucking noobtoss.
5 toss in a rows, all of them around 2500 diamond. I beat 4 of them and lost to the lowest ranked one. That game I couldn't figure out why I had no money. It turns out I had about 35 drones on one extractor for half the game.
edit: i don't have time to go into detail since i need to leave for work, but 2gate zealot rushes on small maps beat 4gates every time. with other builds all you need against a 4gate is proper FF placement. depending on the map distance, this can be a bit a dicey, but in no way is the 4gate the be all end all pvp build. not at all.
You can warp-in up force-fielded ramps, unfortunately. It's not happened to me yet, but it's possible with the right pylon placement.
People who claim 4gate is too easy are just being dumb. Its no easier to execute than any other build.
Where their real problem lies, and what they should be complaining about but are too dumb to do so, is that it is disproportionally more difficult to hold off a 4gate using an economic build than it is to execute one, and it is not always possible to scout it in time, sometimes you have to just stick to 4gate-safe builds vs Protoss.
Terran, though, have no excuse for losing to 4gate.
1) you should always be walling against Protoss. I don't care if the pros don't, they are good enough to pull it off and you aren't.
2) Always scan a protoss at the 5:30 mark and throw down bunkers if you dont catch their buildings or if you see 4gates. Remember, you have the only scouting method in the game that is literally impossible to deny. It has its limitations, true, and it can be dodged, but especially against a 4gate, you will easily be able to keep your worker in their base to see the first two pylons go down, and then you should know roughly where to scan. If you scan and see only the 1 gate and the core, you're getting 4gated and the 3 gates are at the side of the base with the 3rd pylon.
I don't think a lot of Terrans appreciate just how insanely good scan is.
Terran can just laugh off a 4gate if they see it coming even only 30 seconds before it hits, because bunkers are ridiculous.
I laugh my ass off at Terran who don't wall, because there is a very low chance of being able to hold a 4gate. Nearly zero.
this requires much more effort on the terrans part just to counter one possible attack that might or might not be coming, depending on where the toss decides to use his chrono boosts.
scanning the base and seeing 4gate isn't enough, bro. plus using up one scan is HUUUUUGE that early in the game because the race is balanced with the assumption that you're using MULES why do i keep having to point this out to protoss players. you need to have a tab on his army size and forward pylons to really predict the 4gate which is hard to do.
you can feign 4gate and the terran would be way more behind for preparing for it than you would by building 4 gates but not using them all.
4gate is easy to pull off. its hard to defend. plus even with bunkers you still have to pull scvs depending on positioning.
It is not the reason that 4 gate is easy or hard
It is possible for a terran to beat a4gate with bunkers
and possible for a zerg to win with enough speed zerglings and roaches
but when you PvP you NEED to 4gate. That is why PvP is dumb because you always NEED to 4gate. 2gate robo can never beat 4gate, no protoss build can be a 4gate allin. So Protoss mirror match up just always becomes a game of who gets the best 4gate out, or barring that it is all about cannon rushing or massing cannons
That is why PvP is boring
What? Granted I lose a lot more PvP's (to 4gate) than any other matchup but 2gate into robo has at least started to hold its own for me in PvP. I think the main problem with the matchup is that it instantly becomes war of the worlds in the midgame and it's simply about who has the most collosi.
Also I think to many terrans in euro diamond is using marauders as a crutch unit. It's a damn good unit but it's not a-move autowin at that level.
The only way protoss wins is with the correct unit composition and good micro. So the key is to make those things as hard as possible. Yet terrans make so many mistakes with marauders. They don't really try to deny any scouting for their openings so it's easy to get the correct unit composition.
They don't try to scout/capture watchtowers so it's easy to see them coming and prepare. They don't scout ahead of their army so they are very prone to walk into ambushes. And finally they have the weird habit of camping outside of the protoss base. Sure you have the watchtower but I have scouts and/or observers.
Every fight I win against MMM it's almost 100 % because I have time to formulate a small battle plan and then I can engage at will and focus everything on getting those forcefields off perfectly. Then it's just a matter of mopup.
Most of the time I lose it's because terrans deny scouting for as long as possible and when it's time to push they just do it and run over the map into my expo killing everything.
So:
- Try to mask what your doing as well as you can, preferably by sniping as many obs as possible.
- Take the watchtowers as often as you can.
- Scout ahead of your army.
- Stay in the safety of your base until your ready, trying to deny as much scouting as possible.
- Do NOT let your army idle in the field. For example most terrans think MMM can contain a protoss by standing at the watchtower on LT. Marauders however do not contain anything. If you don't want your army at home then take the watchtower, place a marine there and pull back slightly. That way you have some time to react and get a good map position instead of being bunched up in poor positioning when the perfectly assembled protoss army arrives.
you can hold off 4 gate with good forcefield use stop not using sentries people
iowa on
0
FrankoSometimes I really wish I had four feet so I could dance with myself to the drumbeatRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
if you are holding off 4gate with 2gate robo than he is not 4gating right
4gate should hit before or after a immortal gets out and zealots completely decimate the immortal
Franko on
0
FrankoSometimes I really wish I had four feet so I could dance with myself to the drumbeatRegistered Userregular
It is not the reason that 4 gate is easy or hard
It is possible for a terran to beat a4gate with bunkers
and possible for a zerg to win with enough speed zerglings and roaches
but when you PvP you NEED to 4gate. That is why PvP is dumb because you always NEED to 4gate. 2gate robo can never beat 4gate, no protoss build can be a 4gate allin. So Protoss mirror match up just always becomes a game of who gets the best 4gate out, or barring that it is all about cannon rushing or massing cannons
That is why PvP is boring
this...is not true. at all.
edit: i don't have time to go into detail since i need to leave for work, but 2gate zealot rushes on small maps beat 4gates every time. with other builds all you need against a 4gate is proper FF placement. depending on the map distance, this can be a bit a dicey, but in no way is the 4gate the be all end all pvp build. not at all.
ya that is true I forgot 2gate beats 4gate
but I 2gate zealot rushes are considered to be even cheesier than 4gate often because it needs to be proxied to be fully effective
On another topic: pheonixes are actually really decent now. I just played a game where i'm kind of floundering early game(the zerg gets a fast pool, than expands at the same time he hits me with lings), but i get up pheonixes and push his base with 2 pheonixes, 2 vrs and 8 or so zealots. I take out his queen and a bunch of drones, than mutas pop and take out my vrs. Luckily, i had been continuing to produce pheonixes, and i haev about 4 at the time he hits my base with 6 mutas. I hold it off easily with minimal micro, and expand again, and get a dark shrine. I continue producing pheonixes and he keeps getting mutas, it ends up in a massive battle between pheonixes and mutas and zealots and zerglings. I win the air battle pretty easily, and the zealots wipe out the zerglings without air support.
On another topic: pheonixes are actually really decent now. I just played a game where i'm kind of floundering early game(the zerg gets a fast pool, than expands at the same time he hits me with lings), but i get up pheonixes and push his base with 2 pheonixes, 2 vrs and 8 or so zealots. I take out his queen and a bunch of drones, than mutas pop and take out my vrs. Luckily, i had been continuing to produce pheonixes, and i haev about 4 at the time he hits my base with 6 mutas. I hold it off easily with minimal micro, and expand again, and get a dark shrine. I continue producing pheonixes and he keeps getting mutas, it ends up in a massive battle between pheonixes and mutas and zealots and zerglings. I win the air battle pretty easily, and the zealots wipe out the zerglings without air support.
This actually seems like a decent build. Have you used it vs hydras yet?
only problem i can see is the timing, it takes a while to get 2 vrs and 2 phoenixes and he might be pushing your front door with roaches before you're ready which would screw ya.
iowa on
0
KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited January 2011
If you have 1 VR and 1 Sentry he can try pushing your door as much as he likes.
Yeah, the build was sloppily executed, and rather spur of the moment. I started my push when the two vrs came out and the first pheonix was almost done. Pheonixes are fast enough that they can catch up easily. Vs. Hydras, I'm guessing a transition to collossi might be good. In fact, a collossi/pheonix/zealot build might be crazy good v. zerg.
Is there a place that keeps track of all the name changes for the players in the GSL? I keep getting confused.
Last GSL I watched was Season 2, and I already don't recognize half the names but all the players look familiar.
So the last few days I've been getting a lot of "Waiting for Server" messages. Never DC'd, but I've never had this problem before the last patch. The rest of my internet seems fine. How can I tell if this is on my end? And if it is, anyone know a fix? Bitch at my ISP?
Telex on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
yeah dhal, let me wall against toss so if they make a single void ray it can charge up for free where I can't hit it
fuck that
edit - yeah, and just scan. no worries that affording those bunkers and the units you need is severely hindered by not using a mule.
dhal 4 gate is crazy good. sorry.
can't do economic builds against toss really because even on a huge map well, there's warp in. so distance is meaningless. that's the part that I really hate.
4gate is especially strong if terran goes for an early expand build.
the early expand build would be well past the point of changing builds by the time you can tell a 4gate is coming.
4gate is bad and ruins the game!!!
Pssh...I've held off plenty of 4 gates with a one rax expand build. Don't even need bunkers.
ahhhh i cna't be trolled help me
Not trollin, but I may have lied about the bunkers. Usually make one. But, seriously I've held four gates with it. You immediately plop down three more rax after you expand. And just start pumping the units. Toss won't be able to keep up. You just gotta survive the first push which usually requires pulling scvs from the expansion.
Posts
Steam: adamjnet
** edit and I've been getting hallucinated phoenixes for scouting which works really well IMO.
Steam: adamjnet
I sent him a polite message saying "I appreciate you're angry, but if you watch the replay I think you'll see that game played out differently than how you think it did."
6 minutes later I got a single word message from him - "Sorry".
Steam: adamjnet
KeoJ
Oh man. Just wait till you get to diamond :P
Seriously, 8 out of 10 matches I have to play against fucking noobtoss.
It is possible for a terran to beat a4gate with bunkers
and possible for a zerg to win with enough speed zerglings and roaches
but when you PvP you NEED to 4gate. That is why PvP is dumb because you always NEED to 4gate. 2gate robo can never beat 4gate, no protoss build can be a 4gate allin. So Protoss mirror match up just always becomes a game of who gets the best 4gate out, or barring that it is all about cannon rushing or massing cannons
That is why PvP is boring
this...is not true. at all.
edit: i don't have time to go into detail since i need to leave for work, but 2gate zealot rushes on small maps beat 4gates every time. with other builds all you need against a 4gate is proper FF placement. depending on the map distance, this can be a bit a dicey, but in no way is the 4gate the be all end all pvp build. not at all.
Would be neat, and probably overpowered, if protoss could warp in all units and not just gateway units. Or at least just probes.
5 toss in a rows, all of them around 2500 diamond. I beat 4 of them and lost to the lowest ranked one. That game I couldn't figure out why I had no money. It turns out I had about 35 drones on one extractor for half the game.
this requires much more effort on the terrans part just to counter one possible attack that might or might not be coming, depending on where the toss decides to use his chrono boosts.
scanning the base and seeing 4gate isn't enough, bro. plus using up one scan is HUUUUUGE that early in the game because the race is balanced with the assumption that you're using MULES why do i keep having to point this out to protoss players. you need to have a tab on his army size and forward pylons to really predict the 4gate which is hard to do.
you can feign 4gate and the terran would be way more behind for preparing for it than you would by building 4 gates but not using them all.
4gate is easy to pull off. its hard to defend. plus even with bunkers you still have to pull scvs depending on positioning.
What? Granted I lose a lot more PvP's (to 4gate) than any other matchup but 2gate into robo has at least started to hold its own for me in PvP. I think the main problem with the matchup is that it instantly becomes war of the worlds in the midgame and it's simply about who has the most collosi.
Also I think to many terrans in euro diamond is using marauders as a crutch unit. It's a damn good unit but it's not a-move autowin at that level.
The only way protoss wins is with the correct unit composition and good micro. So the key is to make those things as hard as possible. Yet terrans make so many mistakes with marauders. They don't really try to deny any scouting for their openings so it's easy to get the correct unit composition.
They don't try to scout/capture watchtowers so it's easy to see them coming and prepare. They don't scout ahead of their army so they are very prone to walk into ambushes. And finally they have the weird habit of camping outside of the protoss base. Sure you have the watchtower but I have scouts and/or observers.
Every fight I win against MMM it's almost 100 % because I have time to formulate a small battle plan and then I can engage at will and focus everything on getting those forcefields off perfectly. Then it's just a matter of mopup.
Most of the time I lose it's because terrans deny scouting for as long as possible and when it's time to push they just do it and run over the map into my expo killing everything.
So:
- Try to mask what your doing as well as you can, preferably by sniping as many obs as possible.
- Take the watchtowers as often as you can.
- Scout ahead of your army.
- Stay in the safety of your base until your ready, trying to deny as much scouting as possible.
- Do NOT let your army idle in the field. For example most terrans think MMM can contain a protoss by standing at the watchtower on LT. Marauders however do not contain anything. If you don't want your army at home then take the watchtower, place a marine there and pull back slightly. That way you have some time to react and get a good map position instead of being bunched up in poor positioning when the perfectly assembled protoss army arrives.
4gate should hit before or after a immortal gets out and zealots completely decimate the immortal
ya that is true I forgot 2gate beats 4gate
but I 2gate zealot rushes are considered to be even cheesier than 4gate often because it needs to be proxied to be fully effective
IMO 4gate is not cheesy by any stretch
the early expand build would be well past the point of changing builds by the time you can tell a 4gate is coming.
4gate is bad and ruins the game!!!
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
This actually seems like a decent build. Have you used it vs hydras yet?
only problem i can see is the timing, it takes a while to get 2 vrs and 2 phoenixes and he might be pushing your front door with roaches before you're ready which would screw ya.
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
Next time i must kill it faster!!
Pssh...I've held off plenty of 4 gates with a one rax expand build. Don't even need bunkers.
Last GSL I watched was Season 2, and I already don't recognize half the names but all the players look familiar.
fuck that
edit - yeah, and just scan. no worries that affording those bunkers and the units you need is severely hindered by not using a mule.
dhal 4 gate is crazy good. sorry.
can't do economic builds against toss really because even on a huge map well, there's warp in. so distance is meaningless. that's the part that I really hate.
ahhhh i cna't be trolled help me
My updated odds
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Not trollin, but I may have lied about the bunkers. Usually make one. But, seriously I've held four gates with it. You immediately plop down three more rax after you expand. And just start pumping the units. Toss won't be able to keep up. You just gotta survive the first push which usually requires pulling scvs from the expansion.
the guy probably wasnt that good at executing it.
I mean yeah I've watched gretorp hold it off but he definitely was hanging on by a cunt hair and was constantly pulling just to hold it off.
Do Gold+ Terran need to know how to use tanks? Cos I am bad at using tanks.
except for banshees
and marauders