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Filling out a job application for a poacher [NEW UPDATE]
BlochWave
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Gonna hunt me some rhinos and elephants! Just kidding, I am in the flattering position of getting poached (for Company A).
A previous customer of my current company (company
recommended me very highly to someone that he knows at A. After some thought, I decided I'd like to pursue company A seriously.
The person at A had lunch with me and we talked a bit, and I've sent him my resume. He has now sent me an employment application that I need to fill out before we discuss specific opportunities.
So, the age old question: Desired Salary? Is it still the vogue thing to put negotiable? Right now I make just a hair over 60k, I believe this new company in general pays higher (and I think I might be a little underpaid, honestly). WOULD I accept an offer for my current salary? I think I would, but I don't want to miss out on an opportunity for higher pay, but I also don't want to put something stupid and not get the job at all. And on top of that, they came to me on a recommendation from a trusted source. I was thinking if negotiable isn't the thing to do, then to put 65k. Is that ridiculous?
Other than that, I'm checking my references to make sure they don't mind if I use them (shouldn't be a problem). My direct supervisor has said in the past that, since the current environment at my job is doom and gloom, that she's not going to freak out if we use her as a reference. So that's good, however if I check the box that says they can contact my current employer, are they going to just straight up call the office and get whoever, which could range up all the way to a VP. Or should I just not worry about it? If that particular VP comes asking why I'm looking at other jobs, I don't think my answer would upset him (doom and gloom and all that).
ooo the excitement
A previous customer of my current company (company
recommended me very highly to someone that he knows at A. After some thought, I decided I'd like to pursue company A seriously.The person at A had lunch with me and we talked a bit, and I've sent him my resume. He has now sent me an employment application that I need to fill out before we discuss specific opportunities.
So, the age old question: Desired Salary? Is it still the vogue thing to put negotiable? Right now I make just a hair over 60k, I believe this new company in general pays higher (and I think I might be a little underpaid, honestly). WOULD I accept an offer for my current salary? I think I would, but I don't want to miss out on an opportunity for higher pay, but I also don't want to put something stupid and not get the job at all. And on top of that, they came to me on a recommendation from a trusted source. I was thinking if negotiable isn't the thing to do, then to put 65k. Is that ridiculous?
Other than that, I'm checking my references to make sure they don't mind if I use them (shouldn't be a problem). My direct supervisor has said in the past that, since the current environment at my job is doom and gloom, that she's not going to freak out if we use her as a reference. So that's good, however if I check the box that says they can contact my current employer, are they going to just straight up call the office and get whoever, which could range up all the way to a VP. Or should I just not worry about it? If that particular VP comes asking why I'm looking at other jobs, I don't think my answer would upset him (doom and gloom and all that).
ooo the excitement
BlochWave on
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Some key things:
- Know the salary range of your position for your geographic area, use that as a basis.
- Know the size of the business (small,medium,large) : the larger usually the more money you can get
Counter offer their offer if you want, but if it turns out it's a lot higher and you're fine with it there's nothing wrong with taking it. You should also ask what responsibilities you'll have. You may find out you're getting the same amount but taking on twice as much work.
65k sounds approximately right -- possibly 70k.
Better yet, do your research and figure out what the new position pays.
I've never been particularly trustful of those sites that supposedly tell you the average salary for a particular position with x years of experience and all that. Should I trust them, or do you guys have something else in mind? Even if I put negotiable I guess I should still know that....
Yeah you should still know that. I've found Salary.com to be a good site. Though, it often lowballs salary ranges. They even have one for managers/hiring that lowballs more.
Don't let the new company contact your current employer until (a) you have a written offer in hand, you've accepted and decided on a start date ; and (b) you've spoken with your current supervisor and she has agreed to be a reference (and you're sure she'll be a positive reference). They can contact your other references before this point, however (and oftentimes you'll find that if those references are positive, they might not even contact your current boss).
Basically, they should not be contacting your current employer in any capacity before the new job is a done deal.
Rigorous Scholarship
I respectfully disagree on this point. Do not ever let your current employer know that you are looking for work and don't ever think, "Oh Bob and I are tight. He wouldn't do me like that. He even said I could use him as a reference" Assume Bob is a liar. Fuck Bob.
Any employer/HR guy worth a shit understands that you do not want your boss to know you're exploring other opportunities.
So I wouldn't put negotiable. You are CLEARLY in a negotiating advantage here, as a company is putting their name on the line to go out of their way to recruit you. That means you get to name your price.
The last time I was in a recruitment situation I put down a very large figure. They asked me to explain it, I did, and I told them, more or less, "for me to abandon the security I have with this company, and [insert other factors here], this is where I need to be at".
At that point they'll either stamp it with approval or they'll tell you what their limits are and you can go from there.
If a company is interested enough to go out of their way to court you, unless you name a ridiculous figure, they are going to work to appease you. Just don't put something ridiculous like 85k or something.
It would probably help too if you told us what you did.
The "contact your employer" question depends on what state you live in. There are some states where they can only ask very specific questions like "would you hire this person again", which might not hurt you. Other states might have different laws. Generally speaking though, providing specific trusted references is a WAY better move.
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
Truth. Assume you dont get this job. Assume in the future theres a round of layoffs. Is youre name on that list? You bet your ass, cus they know youre looking around anyway.
Dont tell your boss until youve already found another job or unless you would be ok getting fired tomorrow.
Check out my band, click the banner.
Emphasizing this.
Don't let on to your current employer unless the new job is 100% locked in.
Also, what the folks above said about contacting your current employer.
Agreed, 85 is not that ridiculous. You should aim high because they are almost never gonna offer more than what you ask for. And if they do, that means you totally lowballed yourself. Do a little research, there are a few websites where you can put in your job title and city and get an estimate for the average compensation and add a few percentage points to that. Then add a few more "fantasy" points on top of that and you've got a number to go with. If you want 70, ask for 75. Something like that.
As for a reference from your current supervisor, that's a case-by-case decision. In my last job change, I used my then-current supervisor as a reference, but that was a situation where the firm was in the process of laying off a number of people, and they were glad to see someone reduce their payroll voluntarily.
Rigorous Scholarship
I also put what I want because it makes me think hard about that. How much am I really worth? This helps me justify that price in my own mind which makes me more confident in the interview even if we aren't talking about salary yet. It also gives me an easy decision point. If they meet my salary (or within a reasonable amount of it) and nothing really bad about the company comes up in the interview process then I'll take a job offer. If they don't, then I won't.
Be confident in knowing what you're worth. That salary line shouldn't really be there to lowball or muck with you, its to ensure that you're not wasting each other's time.
Job title means jack shit. My first job was a programmer but turns out I was a system admin. Too bad I was dumb enough not to ask my responsibilities and ask for a better wage because I was running pretty much the whole IT on entry level programmer pay.
That's why I prefer to leave that information blank. You lessen the chance of leaving money on the table by lowballing yourself.
Who knows, maybe they think a good salary for this job is $100K. I don't think there's any downside to letting them throw out the first number. If they want you, this won't be a sticking point.
Rigorous Scholarship
When I moved to my current company I went from 65k to 85k and it wasn't a big deal at all. You should be trying to get as big a raise in pay as possible.
i woulden't switch my job for that unless i really hated it.
So anyways, after two interviews (one in person with the office manager who I originally had lunch with, and a phone interview with their ops manager) they have an offer put together and want to go over it with me tomorrow afternoon. The second interview turned to the subject of money. Based on that conversation, I'm expecting (though purely through my own intuition, so we'll see) to see 65-67k offered (though I will keep you posted if it's different). People are suggesting that isn't worth the trouble of changing jobs, but here's some food for thought:
1) Right now I get ~2200 dollars a year yanked off my income from medical and vision insurance. They FULLY cover medical and vision there.
2) Based on company performance, I currently get a % matching contribution that is split between my 401k and ESOP program. My first year there that % was about 10. This year it was about 3. The other company has, for the last 10 years (including this one which hurt a lot of companies in this area) put in 25% of the employee's base salary (also a 401k and ESOP), regardless of their contributions (the most they're allowed to do under the laws that bind them in such things, apparently)
3) They have superior breakroom snacks
So from a compensation standpoint, that all seems favorable, but even if it weren't, here are some points that didn't get conveyed during this topic's first run:
1) My company, my office in particular, was deeply affected by changes in the aerospace industry at the beginning of 2010. We have been scrapping for work. At the same time our boss's boss's boss (group supervisor -> office manager -> division prez) has been really cutthroat, saying if we don't meet certain utilization goals we won't receive bonuses or raises (including cost of living raises). A LOT of people in my group did not meet their (95%) utilization goal last year. I did, and I'm hanging on right now, but that's troubling. To help stay utilized, in the last couple of weeks I've done things like transcribe other people's handwritten notes to computer and helped in assessments of....retention plans? c'mon now. So my desire to jump has more to it than compensation. In addition, some of our higher ups have bailed, which is always a bad sign. Meanwhile, this company currently employs 600 and has employed less than 2000 total individuals since 1973.
So anyways, the way I've put it here, it seems like a no-brainer to me. I'll go and get the offer tomorrow and see what the particulars are and sleep on it before making any decisions, of course.
With another, substantial salary increase on top? And more retirement funds? Yes please.
The only downside would be if you'd have to move across the country or something, but if you live in the same place and drive to a different building, fuck that, jump ship.
One of the possible side-benefits that's related to such a good compensation package is that it's clear the company values their employees and wants to retain them.
It was clear from my first day on the new job that this company paid you a lot because they expected a lot from you. You knew that everyone else in the company was getting compensated quite well and it just generally kept moral much higher than any other company I had ever worked for.
Plus they encouraged employees to find new business opportunities for them and would give you a cut of any contracts you brought in. Not just like a one-time finders fee either but for the life of the contract.
What I'm trying to say is that 5-6k difference in salary isn't a lot but combined with the other benefits which sound great it seems like the company that's poaching you is heavily vested in the well-being of their employees and that can make more of a difference than straight up salary numbers.
You're vested, right?
My current gross pay is 60,539, they're offering 60,000 (commence balking...) + a 1000 dollar hiring bonus (still balking...)
At present my deductions (for insurance and a 10% contribution into my 401k) are $8,295. With them, I would be getting 15% into my 401k already (more on that later) at no cost to me (it isn't matching), so my total deductions end up being a comically small $145, unless I want to contribute even more
So my taxable income now is $52,244, with them it would be $59,855 (less balking).
For retirement package, right now I get a % of my salary split between an ESOP and 401k. In the past that % was 10, this year it was 3%. This company gives 25% of the base salary into their ESOP and 401k. 60% of that goes into the 401k, so 15% of my salary goes into the 401k.
Right now I get 18 days of PTO (nothing else), in two years that will cap at 20, theirs is always 20 a year, and 5 of sick leave.
I'm fully vested in my current retirement packages
So I think the point at which to compare them here is the taxable income, which goes up 7,611 dollars. Assuming, say, a 19% tax rate, that ends up being a raw 480 dollars/month or so AFTER tax. That seems...good, right?
As far as the work, right now I'm a physicist masquerading as an engineer, this would make me a physicist masquerading as a mathematician. Which sounds far superior to me. They have immediate work for me in my current location through October, and then would like to move me (and I would like to move). The work situation at my current job is tense and uncertain. Unless I'm misinterpreting the numbers, I'm feeling pretty good about this...
If nothing else, you can all get some warm and fuzzies knowing you advised me to successful obtainment of an offer!
And again, fully covering your insurance is a big deal.
So agree with this.
Yes, it will probably ultimately come down to that, but while we're on the numbers...
My roommate brings up a point that I don't completely follow. Well, I kinda see what he's getting at. He points out that the 6000 dollars I put into my 401k right now is an elective deduction, and it's not completely valid to compare one job with that elective deduction and the other without.
I can kinda see what he means, but I'm being completely outcome-oriented. When the smoke clears, I can be getting more in my 401k then I am now while taking home nearly an additional 500 dollars/month after tax. Is that totally an improper way to consider it?
If I wanted to then add another 10% on top of the 15%, that would be a separate decision.
Same logic that people use to talk themselves into an expensive mortgage.
"But I'm missing the deduction."
You lose a few hundred in saved taxes and gain a few thousand in 401k contributions.
Numbers sound good, this bit is the thing that worries me. But if you think current job is not stable either, than you might a well go for it.