BW had harder mechanics because of the 12 unit cap. That's about it.
And workers couldn't be rallied to minerals.
And you couldn't build out of multiple buildings in a control group, you had to select each building individually.
Neither affected gameplay significantly.
The inability to a-move my goons/zels into a T line however is much more prominent. Also hotkeys like Mr. Avenger said being literally across the gat damn keyboard.
Unit pathing. Forming arcs of fire. Unit control. Overkilling. All mechanics that were made so much easier in SC2. Not to mention, macro mechanics are definitely significantly harder in BW. Even now, Flash, who is probably the most mechanically solid player ever, still forgets to make scvs or send them to minerals, especially when battles take place over several screen lengths and he's on multiple bases.
Euphemon on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
BW had harder mechanics because of the 12 unit cap. That's about it.
And workers couldn't be rallied to minerals.
And you couldn't build out of multiple buildings in a control group, you had to select each building individually.
Neither affected gameplay significantly.
The inability to a-move my goons/zels into a T line however is much more prominent. Also hotkeys like Mr. Avenger said being literally across the gat damn keyboard.
is this an actual joke?
you don't think having to select each building to create units, having to manually tell drones to mine, etc. changes a lot about the game?
these are things you used to have to do every 20-30 seconds that you don't have to do at all anymore
BW had harder mechanics because of the 12 unit cap. That's about it.
And workers couldn't be rallied to minerals.
And you couldn't build out of multiple buildings in a control group, you had to select each building individually.
Neither affected gameplay significantly.
The inability to a-move my goons/zels into a T line however is much more prominent. Also hotkeys like Mr. Avenger said being literally across the gat damn keyboard.
is this an actual joke?
you don't think having to select each building to create units, having to manually tell drones to mine, etc. changes a lot about the game?
these are things you used to have to do every 20-30 seconds that you don't have to do at all anymore
To be very clear, only selecting one building at a time means that instead of building five marines requiring 6 actions in SC2 (hit hotkey, m, m, m, m, m), building five marines in BW requires something like 11 actions? (hit f2 for macro screen, click on barracks, m, click on barracks, m, click on barracks, m, click on barracks, m, click on barracks, m)
In addition, you have to change your screen view in BW, but not in SC2.
This /just means/ that macroing efficiently in BW requires twice as many APM as in SC2, and having to remember every ~15 seconds to move workers to minerals is extremely mechanics-intensive as well.
Invictus on
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
Well, let's not forget that in SC2 you can put your whole army in 1 control grp and just tab (and shift+tab?) between the unit types. There's really no reason you'll need multiple hotkeys for your army unless you're splitting them up for drops and guerrilla tactics. Positioning, if it's not done so already, will not be an issue of control groups since you can save space and quickly move between unit types by hitting tab.
I actually need some help. I'm Zerg and I just don't know what the fuck to do against tanks. They just park that shit on my ramps* and go ololololol while my banelings die.
There was also a lack of smart-casting in BW, aside from the magic box thing.
His Corkiness on
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
You shouldn't be caught in a position like that. Attacking into a Terran that's set up at a choke is suicide. If it's unavoidable, then you've lost the game. See: Nestea vs MVP in the GSL on Shakuras. You should be preventing him from moving out with mutas and harassing his reinforcements/countering with slings. If he goes for the attack anyway, then hope that his slowpush takes long enough that you can make it back in time to punish him for unsieging etc. If you can't, or if his slowpush is really slow, then you lose. That's why Steppes is pretty much Terran heaven.
BW had harder mechanics because of the 12 unit cap. That's about it.
And workers couldn't be rallied to minerals.
And you couldn't build out of multiple buildings in a control group, you had to select each building individually.
Neither affected gameplay significantly.
The inability to a-move my goons/zels into a T line however is much more prominent. Also hotkeys like Mr. Avenger said being literally across the gat damn keyboard.
is this an actual joke?
you don't think having to select each building to create units, having to manually tell drones to mine, etc. changes a lot about the game?
these are things you used to have to do every 20-30 seconds that you don't have to do at all anymore
For your average Korean Pro-gamer? Nope.
You wonder why MVP owns? Not because his macro is somehow better, it's because his multi-tasking just clowns the rest of the nerds. He literally took off the weight training clothes a la DBZ with the cap removed.
You shouldn't be caught in a position like that. Attacking into a Terran that's set up at a choke is suicide. If it's unavoidable, then you've lost the game. See: Nestea vs MVP in the GSL on Shakuras. You should be preventing him from moving out with mutas and harassing his reinforcements/countering with slings. If he goes for the attack anyway, then hope that his slowpush takes long enough that you can make it back in time to punish him for unsieging etc. If you can't, or if his slowpush is really slow, then you lose. That's why Steppes is pretty much Terran heaven.
Yeah, I know that. But this was on Shakuras and he just broke the rocks between us. There's pretty much no way to get a decent surround there.
Hmm, I just might offrace Terran for a while in order to know what to do. God knows it helped me with my ZvP when I went Toss.
What's the most standard build as T for MMM with tanks?
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Are you serious? You think that among pro-gamers people don't have difference in macro ability? Flash may have made his name by being a cheeser at first, but after that, people knew him for his almost-perfect macro. Compared to even A-class progamers like Fantasy, Flash's macro is out of this world. And even he isn't completely perfect.
Not to mention, macro doesn't take place in a isolated environment. Unit control in BW is so much harder. There are endless examples. Marine micro in BW is about 100x more difficult, and people became famous on the backs of controlling units perfectly. Defilers for savior, vultures for Fantasy, Mutas for julyzerg, carriers for Stork. Dragoons were literally retarded, and controlling them like any top-class protoss does by actually getting them into arcs is ridiculously difficult. Strategies like reaver/sair are infamous for being almost impossible to execute, even by progamers. Needing to going back to their base to macro most definitely affects the game.
Euphemon on
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KlykaDO you have anySPARE BATTERIES?Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
Good thing we live in the future now where even we, the pathetic peasants, can enjoy StarCraft.
You shouldn't be caught in a position like that. Attacking into a Terran that's set up at a choke is suicide. If it's unavoidable, then you've lost the game. See: Nestea vs MVP in the GSL on Shakuras. You should be preventing him from moving out with mutas and harassing his reinforcements/countering with slings. If he goes for the attack anyway, then hope that his slowpush takes long enough that you can make it back in time to punish him for unsieging etc. If you can't, or if his slowpush is really slow, then you lose. That's why Steppes is pretty much Terran heaven.
Yeah, I know that. But this was on Shakuras and he just broke the rocks between us. There's pretty much no way to get a decent surround there.
Hmm, I just might offrace Terran for a while in order to know what to do. God knows it helped me with my ZvP when I went Toss.
What's the most standard build as T for MMM with tanks?
Yeah, like I said, MVP vs Nestea Though Nestea actually did break the push, he just got over-greedy after doing so and got wiped by reinforcements, though he probably would have lost anyway. I think some players opt to break down their own rocks, and attack before they're fully set up, or timing attack before siege completes. Otherwise, build all tech at natural and just let the main die and use the bigger area to flank the push. If you lose there though, lol, so fucked. Tanks on an even smaller ramp and high ground.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
Why are we even having this argument. Starcraft 1 was 10 billion times harder to play than SC2.
Because What said it was because you could 12 units. And I thought he was joking, but apparently not!
And no, Flash became famous for being able to macro despite needing to click twice as much just to macro, not do anything else. And that's compared to your average Korean pro-gamer.
but
if you absolutely have to attack into tanks and marines (not on a ramp)
the idea is that banelings chase marines back (or kill), and you use lings or muties to kill tanks
mastman on
B.net: Kusanku
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Kiwikaki had such perfect forcefields defending that baneling allin, even though he misplaced the second time. Kiwi going for mothership again, what a baller.
Granted, he's basically won, so...
Hahahah, "no manner". I think Kiwi's actually stated that he almost always goes for mothership now in PvZ though.
So macro has stayed the same, I just have to click twice?
What on
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
And you need to make and move workers after they're done. And you need to move camera to each group of buildings, and click on the buildings and then press the hotkey without being able to just control-group and hold down a key, on top of microing a lot more. So, yeah, brood war mechanics are all-around much harder, including the macro. If you honestly still think that the only main difference in mechanics is selecting 12 units, well, I don't see how I can persuade you.
So macro has stayed the same, I just have to click twice?
As I understood your original claim, you said that the only way that SC2 was more mechanically demanding was because of the 12-unit control limit.
Normally, I take 'mechanically demanding' to be a claim about how much handspeed and APM is required to play the game well.
So yes, my counter-claim is that one of the ways that SC2 is more mechanically demanding than BW is that macro requires twice as many actions. This is one of the ways, in addition to the 12-unit control limit, that BW is more mechanically demanding.
Invictus on
Generalísimo de Fuerzas Armadas de la República Argentina
*eye roll* I'm pretty sure that doesn't do anything. I don't think you can do anything to stop roaches from un-burrowing. They're probably just pushed to the side as they unburrow. Anyone confirm?
*eye roll* I'm pretty sure that doesn't do anything. I don't think you can do anything to stop roaches from un-burrowing. They're probably just pushed to the side as they unburrow. Anyone confirm?
I'm actually willing to bet that it does trap them, unless the force field pushes them around as it goes up. I don't know for sure though.
Evo rush is hatch/cancel in P's choke for creep, quickly build evo on it. Fucks up wall ins, allows ling runby.
e~ Toilet = Vortex.... it clumps everything together, making any AE damage you can apply very efficient. Usually it's done with coloss or archon, but an opponent's banelings are possible I guess.
Evo rush is hatch/cancel in P's choke for creep, quickly build evo on it. Fucks up wall ins, allows ling runby.
e~ Toilet = Vortex.... it clumps everything together, making any AE damage you can apply very efficient. Usually it's done with coloss or archon, but an opponent's banelings are possible I guess.
The idea was that Catz would Neural Parasite the Mothership, Vortex Kiwi's units, and then run his Banelings in to do a Baneling Toilet. Kiwi dropped the Vortex just before the NP though, so Catz got rolled.
Posts
Unit pathing. Forming arcs of fire. Unit control. Overkilling. All mechanics that were made so much easier in SC2. Not to mention, macro mechanics are definitely significantly harder in BW. Even now, Flash, who is probably the most mechanically solid player ever, still forgets to make scvs or send them to minerals, especially when battles take place over several screen lengths and he's on multiple bases.
is this an actual joke?
you don't think having to select each building to create units, having to manually tell drones to mine, etc. changes a lot about the game?
these are things you used to have to do every 20-30 seconds that you don't have to do at all anymore
To be very clear, only selecting one building at a time means that instead of building five marines requiring 6 actions in SC2 (hit hotkey, m, m, m, m, m), building five marines in BW requires something like 11 actions? (hit f2 for macro screen, click on barracks, m, click on barracks, m, click on barracks, m, click on barracks, m, click on barracks, m)
In addition, you have to change your screen view in BW, but not in SC2.
This /just means/ that macroing efficiently in BW requires twice as many APM as in SC2, and having to remember every ~15 seconds to move workers to minerals is extremely mechanics-intensive as well.
What to do dear forum.
*
ramp ramp
ramp
For your average Korean Pro-gamer? Nope.
You wonder why MVP owns? Not because his macro is somehow better, it's because his multi-tasking just clowns the rest of the nerds. He literally took off the weight training clothes a la DBZ with the cap removed.
Yeah, I know that. But this was on Shakuras and he just broke the rocks between us. There's pretty much no way to get a decent surround there.
Hmm, I just might offrace Terran for a while in order to know what to do. God knows it helped me with my ZvP when I went Toss.
What's the most standard build as T for MMM with tanks?
Not to mention, macro doesn't take place in a isolated environment. Unit control in BW is so much harder. There are endless examples. Marine micro in BW is about 100x more difficult, and people became famous on the backs of controlling units perfectly. Defilers for savior, vultures for Fantasy, Mutas for julyzerg, carriers for Stork. Dragoons were literally retarded, and controlling them like any top-class protoss does by actually getting them into arcs is ridiculously difficult. Strategies like reaver/sair are infamous for being almost impossible to execute, even by progamers. Needing to going back to their base to macro most definitely affects the game.
Yeah, like I said, MVP vs Nestea
Because What said it was because you could 12 units. And I thought he was joking, but apparently not!
And no, Flash became famous for being able to macro despite needing to click twice as much just to macro, not do anything else. And that's compared to your average Korean pro-gamer.
if you absolutely have to attack into tanks and marines (not on a ramp)
the idea is that banelings chase marines back (or kill), and you use lings or muties to kill tanks
B.net: Kusanku
Hahahah, "no manner". I think Kiwi's actually stated that he almost always goes for mothership now in PvZ though.
As I understood your original claim, you said that the only way that SC2 was more mechanically demanding was because of the 12-unit control limit.
Normally, I take 'mechanically demanding' to be a claim about how much handspeed and APM is required to play the game well.
So yes, my counter-claim is that one of the ways that SC2 is more mechanically demanding than BW is that macro requires twice as many actions. This is one of the ways, in addition to the 12-unit control limit, that BW is more mechanically demanding.
no i mean one where we only play each other
and we can use non-dumb maps
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Protoss not being creative. Psh.
This isn't especially useful information though.
anyway catz owns. he's way too experimentive to play at higher levels though
I don't think anyone is dumb enough to make that claim about kiwi.
Not even Iowa.
e~ beated!
*eye roll* I'm pretty sure that doesn't do anything. I don't think you can do anything to stop roaches from un-burrowing. They're probably just pushed to the side as they unburrow. Anyone confirm?
meh catz be screwed
I'm actually willing to bet that it does trap them, unless the force field pushes them around as it goes up. I don't know for sure though.
e~ Toilet = Vortex.... it clumps everything together, making any AE damage you can apply very efficient. Usually it's done with coloss or archon, but an opponent's banelings are possible I guess.
The idea was that Catz would Neural Parasite the Mothership, Vortex Kiwi's units, and then run his Banelings in to do a Baneling Toilet. Kiwi dropped the Vortex just before the NP though, so Catz got rolled.