Evo rush is hatch/cancel in your choke for creep, quickly build evo on it. Fucks up wall ins, allows ling runby.
e~ Toilet = Vortex.... it clumps everything together, making any AE damage you can apply very efficient. Usually it's done with coloss or archon, but an opponent's banelings are possible I guess.
i wish the archon toilet was much more feasible. as is, its kind of a joke tactic that works solely on surprise alone. so goddang expensive. archons kinda feel like throwaway units. they can dish out a lot of pain, yes, but they're used more as a route for used up HTs. I don't recall any "archon" builds at least. But that's probably the best place for them since buffing them up any would make HT builds all the more ridiculous.
*eye roll* I'm pretty sure that doesn't do anything. I don't think you can do anything to stop roaches from un-burrowing. They're probably just pushed to the side as they unburrow. Anyone confirm?
I'm actually willing to bet that it does trap them, unless the force field pushes them around as it goes up. I don't know for sure though.
They just get pushed out to the side of them when they unburrow (and they can move under them while burrowed). So I guess it would be possible to split them up but it would require the Zerg to unburrow them at a bad time and then not re-burrow. You can't force them to stay burrowed.
Guek I feel your recent ladder pain, I'm trying to get back into this game and it's like whooooooops, I'm constantly supply blocked and floating 1k+ minerals.
kedinik on
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I was at a tournament where a guy used Archons quite extensively versus Terran. It helps to soak up a ton of damage from marauders.
i'd be terrified to go heavy archons against terran since ghosts pretty much one shot em en mass
EMP only does 100 shield damage.
I guess if they have a bunch of ghosts that would mess them up? But that's fewer other units, etc.
EDIT: D'oh, beat'd.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
EMP used to be all energy/shields, probably why you're confused. And biggest counter to archons is still marauders. They don't get bonus, but the slow prevents the archons from ever getting into range, pretty much. And they're so gas-heavy that sentry count will be low.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Yeah but that keeps the Marauders shooting at the Archons, doing not a lot of damage/hit, which means they're not murdering your other stuff.
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Euphemonitsudemo sagashiteiruyodokka ni kimi no sugata woRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
True, true. I think we've seen archon-heavy compositions fail in the past though, but I'm not too sure about that. In any case, I know incontrol and lol-artosis have been experimenting with non-colossus play so I'm sure they've tried it. Might be waiting for a tournament to debut the build though.
True, true. I think we've seen archon-heavy compositions fail in the past though, but I'm not too sure about that. In any case, I know incontrol and lol-artosis have been experimenting with non-colossus play so I'm sure they've tried it. Might be waiting for a tournament to debut the build though.
Most protoss need to get away from all colossus all the time. I almost never make colossi, unless it is very late game or I'm going up against 1 base mass marines and I've FE'd. Going mass gateway (robo for obs) and quick teching to templar (have both upgrades as your 2nd expo comes) use to be my go to PvT build and works pretty good. The only downside is almost all your gas is going to teching to HT's so you will be zealot heavy w/o any forge upgrades until late game. Then there is the fast double forge upgrade strat with immortals that I have been playing around with lately. It keeps you safe in the mid game, but you still need a transition into HT's or colossi if the terran is going mass bio (this transition has proven problematic for me as so much gas is invested into immortals/upgrades that it delays the HT's dangerously late). Even if he is going mech you need air or colossi. It actually handles a 50/50 mix of mech/bio pretty well though. Then there is the mid game immortal/voidray composition. Essentially make immortals/VR's off of two bases and aggressively take a third. This can work really well with good FF's as immortals/VR's do really well against a frontline...they are just weak to getting overwhelmed. Again, this takes up all your gas so HT's/colossi/upgrades are delayed and you will need them. It is also weak to mass marine, though again good FF's can make the difference.
Honestly, I'm beginning to think that protoss might be just a tad too gas dependent. I mean at best you'll usually only ever have 3 bases worth of gas at one time (usually the first base's gas is mined around the time the fourth comes up). And even three bases of gas doesn't feel like enough a lot of the time.
I find that it's pretty necessary to get collosi before you get ht. For the most part, going straight to ht means there's a looooooong time where you have no AoE and bio has a massive advantage over your ground army.
I had 2 spine crawlers, only in my natural. He kills off my 2 queens with lings and banelings, but I get enough lings to kill it all off, though he's killed almost every drone in my main. Then leaves with that?
I find that it's pretty necessary to get collosi before you get ht. For the most part, going straight to ht means there's a looooooong time where you have no AoE and bio has a massive advantage over your ground army.
I disagree. I won't argue that skipping colossus is difficult. But I don't think we can safely claim they are necessary. Both the double forge upgrade route and the immortal/voidray path can deal with bio until he gets a critical mass. What I'm trying to figure out is when that critical mass is and can I transition to colossi/templar by that point. An idea I've been toying with is to go immortals and double forge upgrades, which is pretty strong in the mid game, and attack with it with 1/1. Up til now I've been passive with it and I get hit by a critical mass of bio before I can transition. But if I attack..I don't need to win, just keep the number of bio down until I can get colossi/HT's.
My problem is I'm too passive generally. I like to sit back and macro, macro, tech and defend until I get everything I need. What I'm toying with now is the idea to get a strong mid game army and use it to pressure the terran to keep bio numbers down, which can delay how quickly I need tech. Meh, I don't know.
True, true. I think we've seen archon-heavy compositions fail in the past though, but I'm not too sure about that. In any case, I know incontrol and lol-artosis have been experimenting with non-colossus play so I'm sure they've tried it. Might be waiting for a tournament to debut the build though.
Most protoss need to get away from all colossus all the time. I almost never make colossi, unless it is very late game or I'm going up against 1 base mass marines and I've FE'd. Going mass gateway (robo for obs) and quick teching to templar (have both upgrades as your 2nd expo comes) use to be my go to PvT build and works pretty good. The only downside is almost all your gas is going to teching to HT's so you will be zealot heavy w/o any forge upgrades until late game. Then there is the fast double forge upgrade strat with immortals that I have been playing around with lately. It keeps you safe in the mid game, but you still need a transition into HT's or colossi if the terran is going mass bio (this transition has proven problematic for me as so much gas is invested into immortals/upgrades that it delays the HT's dangerously late). Even if he is going mech you need air or colossi. It actually handles a 50/50 mix of mech/bio pretty well though. Then there is the mid game immortal/voidray composition. Essentially make immortals/VR's off of two bases and aggressively take a third. This can work really well with good FF's as immortals/VR's do really well against a frontline...they are just weak to getting overwhelmed. Again, this takes up all your gas so HT's/colossi/upgrades are delayed and you will need them. It is also weak to mass marine, though again good FF's can make the difference.
Honestly, I'm beginning to think that protoss might be just a tad too gas dependent. I mean at best you'll usually only ever have 3 bases worth of gas at one time (usually the first base's gas is mined around the time the fourth comes up). And even three bases of gas doesn't feel like enough a lot of the time.
i've been messing around with the heavy immortal + upgrades build and while it can be formidable once its up and running, i found that it's incredibly vulnerable to harass or continuous pressure. you're very very resource dependent because upgrades and immortals cost so much gas and it'll take a lot of minerals to properly supplement with a beefy gateway army. using colossi, you don't need as many gateway units because they're just there as meat shields and as clean up. it's also very much midgame oriented play, like you just described, where it's great for awhile but gets weaker the longer the game goes on. the reason toss is so colossi/HT dependent is because they're the most cost effective unit and because gateway units are pretty mediocre against roaches/hydras and MMM.
i think colossi are definitely necessary for anything past a 2 base game.
often you can just go kill that mofo before you start getting to late game. good players though will have pretty formidable defenses either with FFs, spines, or bunkers/tanks.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I've been doing well with storm first against Zerg but yes I am definitely finding that Storm first vs Terran is much more difficult to do. That said, if you can surprise them with it and get both upgrades done before them realising you're going HT, you can do some serious damage assuming you're still in the game.
Not like it's imbalanced or anything, but it's pretty binary.
It just swings so heavily in favor of one side or the other depending on Gateway units v Burrow roaches v Immortals v Hydras v Colossi v Corrupters.
Whereas I think ZvT allows a bit more creativity in unit comp and strategic responses.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I disagree with that. Counters are clearer in PvZ, true, but not specifically. Corrupters won't wreck you if they shoot your colossi as long as the colossi kill the hydras before doing.
The only thing I dislike about PvZ is how hydras cannot be beaten by anything but storm or colossi unless you are far ahead on macro.
I disagree with that. Counters are clearer in PvZ, true, but not specifically. Corrupters won't wreck you if they shoot your colossi as long as the colossi kill the hydras before doing.
The only thing I dislike about PvZ is how hydras cannot be beaten by anything but storm or colossi unless you are far ahead on macro.
you forgot about carriers!!! oh boy, I bet your face is red ;-)
It is kind of cool how superbly micro'd carriers can trade interceptors efficiently against hydras, but dear god is that a risky strategy.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Carriers may as well not exist, they are just pathetically weak in any sort of real game scenario. Its the same as trying to get BCs in a TvT. You need air superiority to do it but if you do it your viking count drops and you may well lose air superiority.
What made carriers so strong in BW was that their interceptors recharged shields when they went back into the carrier so it was actually really quite difficult to do anything about the interceptors, so you had to attack the carriers themselves which meant running into range of the interceptors and being torn apart. Unit targeting AI also meant that sometimes interceptors wouldn't register as being in range even if they were so the enemy units just wouldn't even touch your carriers sometimes.
Carriers stop attacking when moving once you have marines or hydras anywhere near their cost around, at that point they become horrendously expensive mineral sinks.
Carriers may as well not exist, they are just pathetically weak in any sort of real game scenario. Its the same as trying to get BCs in a TvT. You need air superiority to do it but if you do it your viking count drops and you may well lose air superiority.
What made carriers so strong in BW was that their interceptors recharged shields when they went back into the carrier so it was actually really quite difficult to do anything about the interceptors, so you had to attack the carriers themselves which meant running into range of the interceptors and being torn apart. Unit targeting AI also meant that sometimes interceptors wouldn't register as being in range even if they were so the enemy units just wouldn't even touch your carriers sometimes.
I remember when carriers used to be siege breaking units in BW, much like gaurdians.
at least, that's how I remember using them. man, that was cool. i don't think carriers are as weak as you're making them out to be, it's just that they're horrifically, horrendously weak by late game. i don't recall ever seeing a match where toss went carriers late game and it directly contributed to a win. if carriers took 90s to build and didn't cost an arm and a leg to make and tech to, we'd probably see them a lot more often.
Posts
i wish the archon toilet was much more feasible. as is, its kind of a joke tactic that works solely on surprise alone. so goddang expensive. archons kinda feel like throwaway units. they can dish out a lot of pain, yes, but they're used more as a route for used up HTs. I don't recall any "archon" builds at least. But that's probably the best place for them since buffing them up any would make HT builds all the more ridiculous.
hello welcome to early beta
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
They did make fungal growth not being able to target air a short while on a ptr, then they realized that was a bad idea and it never made it live.
i'd be terrified to go heavy archons against terran since ghosts pretty much one shot em en mass
oh yeeeah...lol. i knew that.
EMP only does 100 shield damage.
I guess if they have a bunch of ghosts that would mess them up? But that's fewer other units, etc.
EDIT: D'oh, beat'd.
theimportanceofexpanding.jpg
Most protoss need to get away from all colossus all the time. I almost never make colossi, unless it is very late game or I'm going up against 1 base mass marines and I've FE'd. Going mass gateway (robo for obs) and quick teching to templar (have both upgrades as your 2nd expo comes) use to be my go to PvT build and works pretty good. The only downside is almost all your gas is going to teching to HT's so you will be zealot heavy w/o any forge upgrades until late game. Then there is the fast double forge upgrade strat with immortals that I have been playing around with lately. It keeps you safe in the mid game, but you still need a transition into HT's or colossi if the terran is going mass bio (this transition has proven problematic for me as so much gas is invested into immortals/upgrades that it delays the HT's dangerously late). Even if he is going mech you need air or colossi. It actually handles a 50/50 mix of mech/bio pretty well though. Then there is the mid game immortal/voidray composition. Essentially make immortals/VR's off of two bases and aggressively take a third. This can work really well with good FF's as immortals/VR's do really well against a frontline...they are just weak to getting overwhelmed. Again, this takes up all your gas so HT's/colossi/upgrades are delayed and you will need them. It is also weak to mass marine, though again good FF's can make the difference.
Honestly, I'm beginning to think that protoss might be just a tad too gas dependent. I mean at best you'll usually only ever have 3 bases worth of gas at one time (usually the first base's gas is mined around the time the fourth comes up). And even three bases of gas doesn't feel like enough a lot of the time.
I had 2 spine crawlers, only in my natural. He kills off my 2 queens with lings and banelings, but I get enough lings to kill it all off, though he's killed almost every drone in my main. Then leaves with that?
??????
I disagree. I won't argue that skipping colossus is difficult. But I don't think we can safely claim they are necessary. Both the double forge upgrade route and the immortal/voidray path can deal with bio until he gets a critical mass. What I'm trying to figure out is when that critical mass is and can I transition to colossi/templar by that point. An idea I've been toying with is to go immortals and double forge upgrades, which is pretty strong in the mid game, and attack with it with 1/1. Up til now I've been passive with it and I get hit by a critical mass of bio before I can transition. But if I attack..I don't need to win, just keep the number of bio down until I can get colossi/HT's.
My problem is I'm too passive generally. I like to sit back and macro, macro, tech and defend until I get everything I need. What I'm toying with now is the idea to get a strong mid game army and use it to pressure the terran to keep bio numbers down, which can delay how quickly I need tech. Meh, I don't know.
i've been messing around with the heavy immortal + upgrades build and while it can be formidable once its up and running, i found that it's incredibly vulnerable to harass or continuous pressure. you're very very resource dependent because upgrades and immortals cost so much gas and it'll take a lot of minerals to properly supplement with a beefy gateway army. using colossi, you don't need as many gateway units because they're just there as meat shields and as clean up. it's also very much midgame oriented play, like you just described, where it's great for awhile but gets weaker the longer the game goes on. the reason toss is so colossi/HT dependent is because they're the most cost effective unit and because gateway units are pretty mediocre against roaches/hydras and MMM.
often you can just go kill that mofo before you start getting to late game. good players though will have pretty formidable defenses either with FFs, spines, or bunkers/tanks.
Not like it's imbalanced or anything, but it's pretty binary.
It just swings so heavily in favor of one side or the other depending on Gateway units v Burrow roaches v Immortals v Hydras v Colossi v Corrupters.
Whereas I think ZvT allows a bit more creativity in unit comp and strategic responses.
The only thing I dislike about PvZ is how hydras cannot be beaten by anything but storm or colossi unless you are far ahead on macro.
They literally hard counter everything except for two expensive, high-tech units.
Though that's balanced by absolutely nothing being a good answer for void ray / colossi when it gets rolling.
you forgot about carriers!!! oh boy, I bet your face is red ;-)
What made carriers so strong in BW was that their interceptors recharged shields when they went back into the carrier so it was actually really quite difficult to do anything about the interceptors, so you had to attack the carriers themselves which meant running into range of the interceptors and being torn apart. Unit targeting AI also meant that sometimes interceptors wouldn't register as being in range even if they were so the enemy units just wouldn't even touch your carriers sometimes.
they attack while moving for god's sake. anything that attacks while moving is going to be useful.
battlecruisers used to be a legitimate option in TvT before they got roflnerfed.
dammit Dhal why you gotta do a thang
And Idra should take lessons from this guy on attitude http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=12990929#post12990929. That is some proper BM.
Terran workers are healing units. How convenient.
http://www.justin.tv/mrbittertv#/w/824163408
I remember when carriers used to be siege breaking units in BW, much like gaurdians.
at least, that's how I remember using them. man, that was cool. i don't think carriers are as weak as you're making them out to be, it's just that they're horrifically, horrendously weak by late game. i don't recall ever seeing a match where toss went carriers late game and it directly contributed to a win. if carriers took 90s to build and didn't cost an arm and a leg to make and tech to, we'd probably see them a lot more often.