yeah i wasn't trying to say that warpgate should be delayed but gateway units wouldn't be buffed. hell yeah they'd be buffed i do think though that forcing robo even more so would be a mistake. adding too much time to the time it takes to get to warpgate could be disasterous, and placing the upgrade in the robo would cement robo play even more. warpgates would be delayed for more than a minute, and that's too long
I swear to god, sentries are the textbook response to speedling pressure on your expo.
Speedlings are dogshit if you have 2-3 sentries and know how to use them.
this is the point where i stop discussing this with you, 3 sentries cannot trap 20 speedlings surrounding a nexus and it would be a complete waste to try
Yes but 6-7 sentries could handle them.
See, I can also arbitrarily throw out numbers that invalidate your attempt at honest discourse.
Look man, sentries are the reason zerg can't really apply pressure until either hydras or burrow roaches and I promise they're the answer to your early game ling pressure.
I swear to god, sentries are the textbook response to speedling pressure on your expo.
Speedlings are dogshit if you have 2-3 sentries and know how to use them.
this is the point where i stop discussing this with you, 3 sentries cannot trap 20 speedlings surrounding a nexus and it would be a complete waste to try
Yes but 6-7 sentries could handle them.
See, I can also arbitrarily throw out numbers that invalidate your attempt at honest discourse.
Look man, sentries are the reason zerg can't really apply pressure until either hydras or burrow roaches and I promise they're the answer to your early game ling pressure.
3 roaches by 5 with a handful of slings, then produce slings massively, and use an OL to spot up the ramp for the roaches....
That build is garbage as an all in for so many reasons. Primarily that the toss player doesn't have to cut probes to stop it while the zerg player sits on 14 drones. The zerg cannot stop the all in being scouted as they drop the warren before lings come out. The only reason the thread starter had a hard time is that he was refusing to drop a forge and cannons if needed. The required responses are easy to execute and really don't require any serious sacrifice from the toss player, thus it is garbage.
One thing I've tried to pick up recently is if I scout a roach rush, I send my first stalker out. If they are sending an OL, I can sometimes either snipe it or cause it to retreat (delaying vision) and if they don't wait for lings my stalker can kite the roaches a bit. The only danger is if I let the stalker get surrounded and even then its not like that's a game ender.
I swear to god, sentries are the textbook response to speedling pressure on your expo.
Speedlings are dogshit if you have 2-3 sentries and know how to use them.
this is the point where i stop discussing this with you, 3 sentries cannot trap 20 speedlings surrounding a nexus and it would be a complete waste to try
Yes but 6-7 sentries could handle them.
See, I can also arbitrarily throw out numbers that invalidate your attempt at honest discourse.
Look man, sentries are the reason zerg can't really apply pressure until either hydras or burrow roaches and I promise they're the answer to your early game ling pressure.
3 roaches by 5 with a handful of slings, then produce slings massively, and use an OL to spot up the ramp for the roaches....
That build is garbage as an all in for so many reasons. Primarily that the toss player doesn't have to cut probes to stop it while the zerg player sits on 14 drones. The zerg cannot stop the all in being scouted as they drop the warren before lings come out. The only reason the thread starter had a hard time is that he was refusing to drop a forge and cannons if needed. The required responses are easy to execute and really don't require any serious sacrifice from the toss player, thus it is garbage.
The success rate reported in thread was pretty good. I'm not sure how a garbage build would give that much trouble to master level players, thus it seems that it may be a little better than you think.
i think the best way to deal with force field would be to make it cost 100 mana, but have sentries spawn with 100. that way you can deal with early game the same way, but you'll never be able to spam it as much as people do now.
yeah i wasn't trying to say that warpgate should be delayed but gateway units wouldn't be buffed. hell yeah they'd be buffed i do think though that forcing robo even more so would be a mistake. adding too much time to the time it takes to get to warpgate could be disasterous, and placing the upgrade in the robo would cement robo play even more. warpgates would be delayed for more than a minute, and that's too long
I don't know if this would work, but it certainly isn't the worst idea I've heard. It also might have the added consequence of breaking Protoss out of the robo-centered play. If gateway units were stronger, then the reliance on colossi in the late game might be broken without making the colossi worthless. Cool.
On the other hand, messing with the warp gate timing might introduce some new problems which will be hard to predict until after the changes had been in place for a while. Changing warp-gate timing would reduce the effectiveness of the 4gate push, but does that make Protoss more vulnerable to certain early Terran timings? What about early zerg timings?
And is it just the FF which is making Protoss strong in the late game? What if buffing gateway units just accelerates that trend because the problem has been mis-identified?
On a tangent: I think Blizzard has done a great job trying to solve these problems, because just a few seconds of thought reveals that even a seemingly simple solution introduces all kinds of potential new problems. Balance is friggin' hard.
Mashimaro on
0
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
even if it's a little better, it's still an all in. that's not the same thing as applying early pressure.
I swear to god, sentries are the textbook response to speedling pressure on your expo.
Speedlings are dogshit if you have 2-3 sentries and know how to use them.
this is the point where i stop discussing this with you, 3 sentries cannot trap 20 speedlings surrounding a nexus and it would be a complete waste to try
Yes but 6-7 sentries could handle them.
See, I can also arbitrarily throw out numbers that invalidate your attempt at honest discourse.
Look man, sentries are the reason zerg can't really apply pressure until either hydras or burrow roaches and I promise they're the answer to your early game ling pressure.
3 roaches by 5 with a handful of slings, then produce slings massively, and use an OL to spot up the ramp for the roaches....
That build is garbage as an all in for so many reasons. Primarily that the toss player doesn't have to cut probes to stop it while the zerg player sits on 14 drones. The zerg cannot stop the all in being scouted as they drop the warren before lings come out. The only reason the thread starter had a hard time is that he was refusing to drop a forge and cannons if needed. The required responses are easy to execute and really don't require any serious sacrifice from the toss player, thus it is garbage.
The success rate reported in thread was pretty good. I'm not sure how a garbage build would give that much trouble to master level players, thus it seems that it may be a little better than you think.
The success rate is purely a result of players unfamiliarity with the timing and response. This build will go the way of the 5RR as soon as most good toss players know how to respond. There are numerous replays on the thread showing simple responses that shut it down quite easily with little variation from a normal build. This is just like all in drone rush antics that worked because people didn't know the correct response.
I wonder if it would help clarify things if "all in" was renamed "one trick pony".
It probably wouldn't - all the people I've seen doing a whole bunch of all-in plays on the ladder just think they're hot shit because it wins them a large percentage of games. They actually don't seem to know what the words "all-in" mean. The problem, of course, is that of education - "one trick pony" has too many syllables and will intimidate their small cheeseful intellects.
In the end, early all-in strategies are like the "fools mate" in chess. Every 10 year old thinks they're really clever for figuring it out when they use it to beat their older sibling, but everyone that's played more than a handful of games of chess laughs at them.
I wonder if it would help clarify things if "all in" was renamed "one trick pony".
It probably wouldn't - all the people I've seen doing a whole bunch of all-in plays on the ladder just think they're hot shit because it wins them a large percentage of games. They actually don't seem to know what the words "all-in" mean. The problem, of course, is that of education - "one trick pony" has too many syllables and will intimidate their small cheeseful intellects.
In the end, early all-in strategies are like the "fools mate" in chess. Every 10 year old thinks they're really clever for figuring it out when they use it to beat their older sibling, but everyone that's played more than a handful of games of chess laughs at them.
It'd probably be a more apt analogy if Grandmasters were using fool's mate and the like.
What's the method for the efficient unloads from a group of dropships, where your units get placed neatly and quickly rather than the 'unload all' business?
I wonder if it would help clarify things if "all in" was renamed "one trick pony".
It probably wouldn't - all the people I've seen doing a whole bunch of all-in plays on the ladder just think they're hot shit because it wins them a large percentage of games. They actually don't seem to know what the words "all-in" mean. The problem, of course, is that of education - "one trick pony" has too many syllables and will intimidate their small cheeseful intellects.
In the end, early all-in strategies are like the "fools mate" in chess. Every 10 year old thinks they're really clever for figuring it out when they use it to beat their older sibling, but everyone that's played more than a handful of games of chess laughs at them.
It'd probably be a more apt analogy if Grandmasters were using fool's mate and the like.
Well, it's a little different because Starcraft is played in real-time. So, any player in chess can simply stop the fools mate, even an experienced player can mis-click and lose to the one-trick-pony opening. And, better players can execute the one-trick-pony better, punishing small mistakes even more.
I still feel like it's close enough though. Anyone can early all-in and almost anyone can learn to do it well, but it doesn't mean they understand the game at all - and in that sense it is the same as the fools mate.
I don't think ff should be nerfed. If they were nerfed, and gateway units were made stronger/produced faster, it might just make toss very similar to terran, with strong units produced from one building. I don't want that. The ff is a unique tool, and I prefer it when the races are actually different.
Each race has tools that seem to be very broken and that's what makes Starcraft so unique.
I remember listening to Idra (of all people) on State of the Game talk about how Brood War never got to be great until Blizzard stopped patching it. Once the players knew there wouldn't be any changes they had to stop thinking in terms of balance and start actually playing the game.
What's the method for the efficient unloads from a group of dropships, where your units get placed neatly and quickly rather than the 'unload all' business?
while your transport is moving, click on the individual pictures.
What's with me eating sentence parts lately? I've got.
A problem I have with Void Rays is that they scare me, I see 1 or 2 and I have this feeling they will just kill my whole army, so I just retreat or suicide my Queens trying to take care of them. Gargh.
Technically saying "I've 3-3 roaches" is still grammatically correct as the contraction is "I have" and some would argue its a more proper way to speak than to add the "got" in there.
I wonder if it would help clarify things if "all in" was renamed "one trick pony".
It probably wouldn't - all the people I've seen doing a whole bunch of all-in plays on the ladder just think they're hot shit because it wins them a large percentage of games. They actually don't seem to know what the words "all-in" mean. The problem, of course, is that of education - "one trick pony" has too many syllables and will intimidate their small cheeseful intellects.
In the end, early all-in strategies are like the "fools mate" in chess. Every 10 year old thinks they're really clever for figuring it out when they use it to beat their older sibling, but everyone that's played more than a handful of games of chess laughs at them.
i think that a lot of this goes back to map size. It would be far more foolish on the large GSL maps.
the ladder also encourages this style of play. If i've got a build that's winning me 80% of my games, and I want to advance, hells yes, I'm going to keep banging that drum until it stops working.
It's the "winning attitude". If you find something that works, you do it. And you do it again. and again. until it stops working, no matter how "cheesy" it is.
I enjoy my way of playing. I enjoy that I will survive an initial push, usually an all-in, and honestly just make the game look like I'm completely defeated and come back and win the match. I even surprise myself that I even win. I guess it's people that just don't know what to do when their specific build order fails.
When I read about people saying that force field should be nerfed and gateway units should be made stronger all i can see is 'forcefield is hard but uber stalkers would be nice and easy'
When I read about people saying that force field should be nerfed and gateway units should be made stronger all i can see is 'forcefield is hard but uber stalkers would be nice and easy'
The problem is that zerg and terran are nice and easy (terran especially), but if some decent force fields are used, they just get wrecked (zerg especially).
So yeah, nerf terran and zerg and give them some FF-like abilities, I says.
remove burrow, forcefield and speed upgrade for lings
every race gets stim
And long range splash siege units.
they do all sort of have that
...kinda. zerg gets the short end of the stick though with broodlords.
edit: zerg should get those big ol' butt bugs from starship troopers. you know, the ones with toxic cosmic fecal matter capable of ripping asunder starships in low orbit
Posts
If you look at http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189683 (and don't read the thread, just d/l the first game rep on the first post.
3 roaches by 5 with a handful of slings, then produce slings massively, and use an OL to spot up the ramp for the roaches....
Joe's Stream.
That build is garbage as an all in for so many reasons. Primarily that the toss player doesn't have to cut probes to stop it while the zerg player sits on 14 drones. The zerg cannot stop the all in being scouted as they drop the warren before lings come out. The only reason the thread starter had a hard time is that he was refusing to drop a forge and cannons if needed. The required responses are easy to execute and really don't require any serious sacrifice from the toss player, thus it is garbage.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
The success rate reported in thread was pretty good. I'm not sure how a garbage build would give that much trouble to master level players, thus it seems that it may be a little better than you think.
Joe's Stream.
I don't know if this would work, but it certainly isn't the worst idea I've heard. It also might have the added consequence of breaking Protoss out of the robo-centered play. If gateway units were stronger, then the reliance on colossi in the late game might be broken without making the colossi worthless. Cool.
On the other hand, messing with the warp gate timing might introduce some new problems which will be hard to predict until after the changes had been in place for a while. Changing warp-gate timing would reduce the effectiveness of the 4gate push, but does that make Protoss more vulnerable to certain early Terran timings? What about early zerg timings?
And is it just the FF which is making Protoss strong in the late game? What if buffing gateway units just accelerates that trend because the problem has been mis-identified?
On a tangent: I think Blizzard has done a great job trying to solve these problems, because just a few seconds of thought reveals that even a seemingly simple solution introduces all kinds of potential new problems. Balance is friggin' hard.
The success rate is purely a result of players unfamiliarity with the timing and response. This build will go the way of the 5RR as soon as most good toss players know how to respond. There are numerous replays on the thread showing simple responses that shut it down quite easily with little variation from a normal build. This is just like all in drone rush antics that worked because people didn't know the correct response.
thats true. its an all in. anytime you cut drones, its an all in. like a true 4 gate, some of the terran pushes, etc.
i also am pretty sure that you can transition out of it if you forced multiple cannons, or was able to cause significant but not deadly damage.
Joe's Stream.
It probably wouldn't - all the people I've seen doing a whole bunch of all-in plays on the ladder just think they're hot shit because it wins them a large percentage of games. They actually don't seem to know what the words "all-in" mean. The problem, of course, is that of education - "one trick pony" has too many syllables and will intimidate their small cheeseful intellects.
In the end, early all-in strategies are like the "fools mate" in chess. Every 10 year old thinks they're really clever for figuring it out when they use it to beat their older sibling, but everyone that's played more than a handful of games of chess laughs at them.
It'd probably be a more apt analogy if Grandmasters were using fool's mate and the like.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Well, it's a little different because Starcraft is played in real-time. So, any player in chess can simply stop the fools mate, even an experienced player can mis-click and lose to the one-trick-pony opening. And, better players can execute the one-trick-pony better, punishing small mistakes even more.
I still feel like it's close enough though. Anyone can early all-in and almost anyone can learn to do it well, but it doesn't mean they understand the game at all - and in that sense it is the same as the fools mate.
Koreans have such funny names for burgers
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
I remember listening to Idra (of all people) on State of the Game talk about how Brood War never got to be great until Blizzard stopped patching it. Once the players knew there wouldn't be any changes they had to stop thinking in terms of balance and start actually playing the game.
while your transport is moving, click on the individual pictures.
Joe's Stream.
Technically saying "I've 3-3 roaches" is still grammatically correct as the contraction is "I have" and some would argue its a more proper way to speak than to add the "got" in there.
i think that a lot of this goes back to map size. It would be far more foolish on the large GSL maps.
the ladder also encourages this style of play. If i've got a build that's winning me 80% of my games, and I want to advance, hells yes, I'm going to keep banging that drum until it stops working.
It's the "winning attitude". If you find something that works, you do it. And you do it again. and again. until it stops working, no matter how "cheesy" it is.
Joe's Stream.
Where you send in multiple drop ships and click each to unload into itself (you'd left click unload on the same dropship).
It would unload all dropships as they are moving automatically, as they move, until empty.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Yes, this is how I unload overlords.
https://medium.com/@alascii
I'm not sure if you can drop and then move to say, change direction. you might have to reissue the drop command then.
The problem is that zerg and terran are nice and easy (terran especially), but if some decent force fields are used, they just get wrecked (zerg especially).
So yeah, nerf terran and zerg and give them some FF-like abilities, I says.
every race gets stim
https://medium.com/@alascii
Flamma inferno
Igne cutis
I would love to stim my colossus
https://medium.com/@alascii
And long range splash siege units.
they do all sort of have that
...kinda. zerg gets the short end of the stick though with broodlords.
edit: zerg should get those big ol' butt bugs from starship troopers. you know, the ones with toxic cosmic fecal matter capable of ripping asunder starships in low orbit
https://medium.com/@alascii
i use tanks in all 3 match ups, yes i do! but guys it takes 2 secs to siege and unsiege, this game is too hard!